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jfklganyc
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United seeks to return to JFK

Thu May 31, 2018 7:05 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... fk-449086/
.



Sweet Irony for us JFK fans that called this bone-headed move 3 years ago.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed emoji from title
 
LHUSA
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:08 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/united-seeks-return-to-new-york-jfk-449086/
.



Sweet Irony for us JFK fans that called this bone-headed move 3 years ago.


Definitely a bonehead and very short-sighted move on the old UA's part. Luckily the current UA execs see the value in returning to JFK - even if it's a P/L loss-leader. The leverage for corporate contracts is too much to ignore.
 
Prost
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:15 pm

Nothing like transmitting your wish list publicly so the price goes higher.
 
evank516
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:15 pm

It was such a dumb move, they gave up a ton of their NY Clientele by doing this. In fact, the only other major airline in NY that doesn't serve all of the Big 3 is WN. Problem is, they can't get back in, and they probably won't be able to unless the FAA downgrades JFK from Level 3 to something else.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:18 pm

Queue the rumors of UA buying out B6 for its JFK slots
 
evank516
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:18 pm

boxeebox wrote:
Cue the JetBlue merger conspiracy in 3...2...1


Any minute now...
 
boxeebox
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:22 pm

Cue the JetBlue merger conspiracy in 3...2...1
 
Prost
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:23 pm

Well, the article fuels the fire by saying they can’t grow organically there. Where else will they get slots? If EWR were slot controlled they could swap foreign carriers EWR slots for JFK slots (and probably some $ as well). Maybe they can tell DL that there was a safety recall on the slots they sold them.
 
S0Y
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:24 pm

AA might sell a few as they focus on PHL as their hub for the area :)
 
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NYPECO
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:25 pm

UA seemed to have quite the operation at JFK in 2015, with several 757's at the terminal. They'll have trouble getting it back.
 
evank516
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:27 pm

NYPECO wrote:
UA seemed to have quite the operation at JFK in 2015, with several 757's at the terminal. They'll have trouble getting it back.


Classic case of "you snooze, you lose"
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:34 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Queue the rumors of UA buying out B6 for its JFK slots


P=0 that the Feds allow a merger of the #1 and #3 NYC carriers while they're both making money.
 
jetero
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:38 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Queue the rumors of UA buying out B6 for its JFK slots


P=0 that the Feds allow a merger of the #1 and #3 NYC carriers while they're both making money.


A comprehensive codeshare sure would be nice.

Some sort of transaction involving JFK and LAX could make sense. (Long-term I think handing DEN over to B6 would help hone UA's focus as well.)
 
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adamblang
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:39 pm

I'd love to see JFK service to each of the UA hubs. Flying out of Chicago, it's not uncommon for the best looking itineraries for international travel to be B6 to JFK and then a Star carrier onward. If I were Scott Kirby for a day, I'd put four daily IAH-JFK on E75s, four daily IAD-JFK on E45s, six daily ORD-JFK on E75s, two daily DEN-JFK on 738s, and a billion 752s on SFO-JFK and LAX-JFK.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 77W 788 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
Curiousflyer
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:41 pm

Has United done anything right lately?

In my case, flying from EWR adds two hours to my trips and if I wanted to fly United, my only option would be expensive connecting routes from LGA. As a result, it has been DL and B6 for domestic flights. And indeed I don’t know how they could get back enough slots in JFK to rebuild a viable operation.

And how could they buy B6? They would end up with dominant positions in both of NYC’s long-haul airports. Their best options in my view is to build an efficient connection service from LGA, with low fares and frequent flights using A321s to DEN, ORD and IAD.
Last edited by Curiousflyer on Thu May 31, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tphuang
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:44 pm

I mean I don’t see how Kirby could be any clearer that the way to get back into jfk is by buying b6.

But given how weak their margins are and the rising fuel prices. They are not going to have money for that. Kirby is just barking his wish list as usual.
 
winginit
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:46 pm

tphuang wrote:

But given how weak their margins are and the rising fuel prices. They are not going to have money for that. Kirby is just barking his wish list as usual.


What piece of data leads you to believe that they have a shortage of cash? UA closed $2B worth of share buybacks in the second half of last year alone and then announced an additional $3B worth of buybacks to take place throughout 2018. They had $5.8B in unrestricted liquidity for 2017.

Having said all of that, I'm of the strong opinion that UA won't try to, and wouldn't be allowed to even if they did try to, purchase B6 - I'm simply saying that having the money to do so is not the hindrance.
 
JBOC
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:51 pm

It might be wishful thinking on my part, but securing the terminal/gate space part of it may be very do-able.
Perhaps BA could be enticed to move some of its operation to Terminal 8?
Also, which Star Alliance carriers are in Terminal 7 nowadays? ANA, I think. I believe AC is gone. Could UA ask one of its partners for some help?
Finally, if I recall correctly from looking out the window on my last AirTrain ride, there's a lot of minor, non-alliance carriers sheltering in Terminal 7. It's not unrealistic to think one or more of them might retract or fold (oil prices?) or, in booming times, be swayed to relocate.
 
boxeebox
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:52 pm

tphuang wrote:
I mean I don’t see how Kirby could be any clearer that the way to get back into jfk is by buying b6.

But given how weak their margins are and the rising fuel prices. They are not going to have money for that. Kirby is just barking his wish list as usual.



kirby - "doesn’t see a feasible organic solution to getting back in there"..." that's the phrase to get everyone going
Last edited by boxeebox on Thu May 31, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:52 pm

They could pick their way in if they really wanted.

Start with 2 redeyes in and 2 early am departures to west coast.

You be surpised how quickly you pick up a slot here and there.

If they get up to 4 or 5 daily to each california hub, They will accomplish their objective.

That Objective is attainable without buying JB
 
tphuang
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 7:53 pm

winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:

But given how weak their margins are and the rising fuel prices. They are not going to have money for that. Kirby is just barking his wish list as usual.


What piece of data leads you to believe that they have a shortage of cash? UA closed $2B worth of share buybacks in the second half of last year alone and then announced an additional $3B worth of buybacks to take place throughout 2018. They had $5.8B in unrestricted liquidity for 2017.

Having said all of that, I'm of the strong opinion that UA won't try to, and wouldn't be allowed to even if they did try to, purchase B6 - I'm simply saying that having the money to do so is not the hindrance.


Think about who else might be interested if b6 is up for sale and whether or not ua would have the resources to compete in a bidding war.
 
jplatts
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 8:00 pm

I agree that some slots at JFK should be given to UA, and I agree that UA should be accommodated at JFK. However, AA and DL both have hubs at LAX and JFK, and there are also some AA and DL customers in LA and NYC who would not switch over to UA if UA brought back LAX-JFK nonstop service.

UA is losing some customers to AA in the San Francisco Bay Area by not serving JFK and CLT nonstop from SFO, and UA does need to bring back SFO-JFK nonstop service and add SFO-CLT nonstop service in order to better compete against AA in the San Francisco Bay Area. JFK is also currently the only DL hub or focus city airport that UA does not serve nonstop from SFO.
 
winginit
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 8:14 pm

tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:

But given how weak their margins are and the rising fuel prices. They are not going to have money for that. Kirby is just barking his wish list as usual.


What piece of data leads you to believe that they have a shortage of cash? UA closed $2B worth of share buybacks in the second half of last year alone and then announced an additional $3B worth of buybacks to take place throughout 2018. They had $5.8B in unrestricted liquidity for 2017.

Having said all of that, I'm of the strong opinion that UA won't try to, and wouldn't be allowed to even if they did try to, purchase B6 - I'm simply saying that having the money to do so is not the hindrance.


Think about who else might be interested if b6 is up for sale and whether or not ua would have the resources to compete in a bidding war.


Uhm... yes? Please go on?

All of the US3 have the resources to launch a very large, albeit hypothetical and highly unlikely, acquisition of B6. One would not best the other on account of not 'having the money' to compete in a bidding war.
 
United1
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 8:33 pm

tphuang wrote:
I mean I don’t see how Kirby could be any clearer that the way to get back into jfk is by buying b6.

But given how weak their margins are and the rising fuel prices. They are not going to have money for that. Kirby is just barking his wish list as usual.


Will see....Even with the rising cost of fuel they are expected to post well over a 2 billion dollar profit this year. Their margin is also tracking to be slightly higher than AAs will be.

I don't see UA buying B6 however...I do see them trying to buy a few slots and/or enter a code-share.
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tphuang
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 8:43 pm

winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:

What piece of data leads you to believe that they have a shortage of cash? UA closed $2B worth of share buybacks in the second half of last year alone and then announced an additional $3B worth of buybacks to take place throughout 2018. They had $5.8B in unrestricted liquidity for 2017.

Having said all of that, I'm of the strong opinion that UA won't try to, and wouldn't be allowed to even if they did try to, purchase B6 - I'm simply saying that having the money to do so is not the hindrance.


Think about who else might be interested if b6 is up for sale and whether or not ua would have the resources to compete in a bidding war.


Uhm... yes? Please go on?

All of the US3 have the resources to launch a very large, albeit hypothetical and highly unlikely, acquisition of B6. One would not best the other on account of not 'having the money' to compete in a bidding war.


I was clearly referring to WN.
 
winginit
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 8:51 pm

tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Think about who else might be interested if b6 is up for sale and whether or not ua would have the resources to compete in a bidding war.


Uhm... yes? Please go on?

All of the US3 have the resources to launch a very large, albeit hypothetical and highly unlikely, acquisition of B6. One would not best the other on account of not 'having the money' to compete in a bidding war.


I was clearly referring to WN.


and WN somehow has superior financial resources when compared to UA that would make them triumphant in a hypothetical bidding war?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 8:55 pm

winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:

Uhm... yes? Please go on?

All of the US3 have the resources to launch a very large, albeit hypothetical and highly unlikely, acquisition of B6. One would not best the other on account of not 'having the money' to compete in a bidding war.


I was clearly referring to WN.


and WN somehow has superior financial resources when compared to UA that would make them triumphant in a hypothetical bidding war?


But do you really want WN to buy B6 and replace all their A320's With 737 Maxes?
 
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varsity
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 9:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
I agree that some slots at JFK should be given to UA, and I agree that UA should be accommodated at JFK.


Why, because UA-CO have been so generous in accommodating newcomers at Fort Newark?
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 9:09 pm

United got rid of all those very senior employees from JFK. If they re enter watch it to be outsourced employees :mad:

They could try to get a code share with B6 mint on JFK flights or as stated on here organically grow.

JFK is only controlled at certain times , they can start flights they just won't have the best times yet. The most important thing is get in there if they want to be available when slots open .
 
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Revelation
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 9:28 pm

varsity wrote:
jplatts wrote:
I agree that some slots at JFK should be given to UA, and I agree that UA should be accommodated at JFK.

Why, because UA-CO have been so generous in accommodating newcomers at Fort Newark?

And UA didn't just give away its slots when it left JFK, it sold them off to DL, so what's good for the goose...
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diverdave
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 9:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
varsity wrote:
jplatts wrote:
I agree that some slots at JFK should be given to UA, and I agree that UA should be accommodated at JFK.

Why, because UA-CO have been so generous in accommodating newcomers at Fort Newark?

And UA didn't just give away its slots when it left JFK, it sold them off to DL, so what's good for the goose...


Exactly. Why should UA be "given" slots that they previously sold.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 9:48 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I was clearly referring to WN.


and WN somehow has superior financial resources when compared to UA that would make them triumphant in a hypothetical bidding war?


But do you really want WN to buy B6 and replace all their A320's With 737 Maxes?


Now that those 320's are getting retrofitted with those awful spaceflex galleys? YES!!!!
 
T5towbar
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 10:11 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
United got rid of all those very senior employees from JFK. If they re enter watch it to be outsourced employees :mad:

They could try to get a code share with B6 mint on JFK flights or as stated on here organically grow.

JFK is only controlled at certain times , they can start flights they just won't have the best times yet. The most important thing is get in there if they want to be available when slots open .



If we did ever come back to JFK, it is still a protected station (under the CBA) that must be staffed by IAM mainline employees, just to let you know.

This was one of Jeff's biggest mistakes (among many) in leaving JFK. Made no sense at all to have left. I wish there was a way to get back. I also know that the landing fees at EWR is a lot higher than they are at JFK and LGA. You figure that the Port Authority would try to do something about the disparity.
I also know that the Government would not allow a UA/B6 merger at all. But you still hear the rumors all the time still to this day.
Last edited by T5towbar on Thu May 31, 2018 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Abeam79
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 10:14 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
winginit wrote:

and WN somehow has superior financial resources when compared to UA that would make them triumphant in a hypothetical bidding war?


But do you really want WN to buy B6 and replace all their A320's With 737 Maxes?


Now that those 320's are getting retrofitted with those awful spaceflex galleys? YES!!!!

Your joking right? Galley not, ill ride a spacious A320 over a crammed plain old wn737 any day.
Wn won’t be touching B6, too much expenses for wn to downgrade the product, eradicate mint on top of the premium they will have to pay, plus replacing A320’s. Nyers will flee over to dl/aa/ua. It’s just a huge logistical complexity. B6 and wn aren’t compatible at all out of any of the majors.
My bet is it will be UA.
DOT will allow it. They allow DL to have huge lga/Jfk area presence, why can’t ua not have Ewr/Jfk? AA also is pretty significant in both
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 10:48 pm

In hindsight United should have kept its IAD schedule specifically keeping some times that are slot controlled. That would have allowed it to keep offering service in the future, allowed a way for people to get to JFK who really need it, and allow international connections for Star Alliance airlines at JFK.

United was just trying to impress people with the cost savings of closing down JFK. It was to have a bullet point of cost savings at the shareholders meeting.
 
flybry
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 10:58 pm

LHUSA wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/united-seeks-return-to-new-york-jfk-449086/
.



Sweet Irony for us JFK fans that called this bone-headed move 3 years ago.


Definitely a bonehead and very short-sighted move on the old UA's part. Luckily the current UA execs see the value in returning to JFK - even if it's a P/L loss-leader. The leverage for corporate contracts is too much to ignore.


Um, the "old" UA that made this decision was headed by Smisek -- who I believe quite possibly was in charge of Continental before the merger? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the upper management people of the "old" UA that made this decision in 2015 were primarily from Continental, not legacy United? Smisek said United didn't need JFK because they had Newark.
 
airzona11
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:01 pm

UA didn't shutter a hub or even a large focus city. They only served JFK from other hubs... 26 flights? That isn't a big operation, they are still largest in NYC or nearly tied. Not sure it is such a big deal. The comments seem pretty bland from Kirby.
 
flybry
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 pm

jetero wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Queue the rumors of UA buying out B6 for its JFK slots


P=0 that the Feds allow a merger of the #1 and #3 NYC carriers while they're both making money.


A comprehensive codeshare sure would be nice.

Some sort of transaction involving JFK and LAX could make sense. (Long-term I think handing DEN over to B6 would help hone UA's focus as well.)


Wait, isn't DEN United's most profitable hub right now? Why would they hand it over to B6? What would that help them hone in on -- giving up their most profitable hub? Not sure this makes any sense...
 
jetero
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:07 pm

flybry wrote:
jetero wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

P=0 that the Feds allow a merger of the #1 and #3 NYC carriers while they're both making money.


A comprehensive codeshare sure would be nice.

Some sort of transaction involving JFK and LAX could make sense. (Long-term I think handing DEN over to B6 would help hone UA's focus as well.)


Wait, isn't DEN United's most profitable hub right now? Why would they hand it over to B6? What would that help them hone in on -- giving up their most profitable hub? Not sure this makes any sense...


DEN never was their most profitable hub any more than UA saved any on the bottom line by leaving JFK. Mere rhetoric to soften the blow of the domestic capacity increases that ran counter to the rest of the industry.
 
United1
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:16 pm

flybry wrote:
jetero wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

P=0 that the Feds allow a merger of the #1 and #3 NYC carriers while they're both making money.


A comprehensive codeshare sure would be nice.

Some sort of transaction involving JFK and LAX could make sense. (Long-term I think handing DEN over to B6 would help hone UA's focus as well.)


Wait, isn't DEN United's most profitable hub right now? Why would they hand it over to B6? What would that help them hone in on -- giving up their most profitable hub? Not sure this makes any sense...


Handing DEN over to B6 (or anyone) will never happen simply because it is UAs most profitable hub right now and an integral part of UAs network. Jetro also believes that UAs growth at SFO is artificial, non-sustainable and barely profitable. I'm not sure I would put much stock in anything Jetro is saying....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jetero
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:17 pm

United1 wrote:
jetero wrote:
flybry wrote:

Wait, isn't DEN United's most profitable hub right now? Why would they hand it over to B6? What would that help them hone in on -- giving up their most profitable hub? Not sure this makes any sense...


DEN never was their most profitable hub any more than UA saved any on the bottom line by leaving JFK. Mere rhetoric to soften the blow of the domestic capacity increases that ran counter to the rest of the industry.


Per UA DEN is UAs most profitable hub....

"United’s focus on Denver is no accident; the airport is its most profitable hub, a key part of its route network, and is a focus for continued growth within the airline"

https://www.airlinereporter.com/2018/04 ... -airlines/


Oh good Lord people on here really cherry pick what they want to believe and what they don't when it comes to airline rhetoric.
 
United1
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:18 pm

jetero wrote:
flybry wrote:
jetero wrote:

A comprehensive codeshare sure would be nice.

Some sort of transaction involving JFK and LAX could make sense. (Long-term I think handing DEN over to B6 would help hone UA's focus as well.)


Wait, isn't DEN United's most profitable hub right now? Why would they hand it over to B6? What would that help them hone in on -- giving up their most profitable hub? Not sure this makes any sense...


DEN never was their most profitable hub any more than UA saved any on the bottom line by leaving JFK. Mere rhetoric to soften the blow of the domestic capacity increases that ran counter to the rest of the industry.


Per UA DEN is UAs most profitable hub....

"United’s focus on Denver is no accident; the airport is its most profitable hub, a key part of its route network, and is a focus for continued growth within the airline"

https://www.airlinereporter.com/2018/04 ... -airlines/
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
gwrudolph
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Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:30 pm

airzona11 wrote:
UA didn't shutter a hub or even a large focus city. They only served JFK from other hubs... 26 flights? That isn't a big operation, they are still largest in NYC or nearly tied. Not sure it is such a big deal. The comments seem pretty bland from Kirby.


FYI they weren't operating 26 flights. They were operating 13 (7 to SFO and 6 to LAX I believe). I think you are thinking of the number of slots they sold, which are TO and landing pairs
Last edited by gwrudolph on Thu May 31, 2018 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
flybry
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:26 am

Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:31 pm

United1 wrote:
jetero wrote:
flybry wrote:

Wait, isn't DEN United's most profitable hub right now? Why would they hand it over to B6? What would that help them hone in on -- giving up their most profitable hub? Not sure this makes any sense...


DEN never was their most profitable hub any more than UA saved any on the bottom line by leaving JFK. Mere rhetoric to soften the blow of the domestic capacity increases that ran counter to the rest of the industry.


Per UA DEN is UAs most profitable hub....

"United’s focus on Denver is no accident; the airport is its most profitable hub, a key part of its route network, and is a focus for continued growth within the airline"

https://www.airlinereporter.com/2018/04 ... -airlines/


Thank you United1 :) I knew I had read that somewhere.
 
United1
Posts: 3914
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:34 pm

jetero wrote:
United1 wrote:
jetero wrote:

DEN never was their most profitable hub any more than UA saved any on the bottom line by leaving JFK. Mere rhetoric to soften the blow of the domestic capacity increases that ran counter to the rest of the industry.


Per UA DEN is UAs most profitable hub....

"United’s focus on Denver is no accident; the airport is its most profitable hub, a key part of its route network, and is a focus for continued growth within the airline"

https://www.airlinereporter.com/2018/04 ... -airlines/


Oh good Lord people on here really cherry pick what they want to believe and what they don't when it comes to airline rhetoric.


Post numbers/statistics that prove it's not.....if you can't dispute what UA has said then perhaps you should not believe you know better then UA does about their own business. For the record I don't believe everything (ie: UA said JFK was not profitable which was true however I am sure the flights themselves were. The station itself had way too much overhead to ever generate a profit with 13 flights a day.) I do however believe them about DEN. Growth itself it not necessarily unprofitable at a well established hub (like DEN.) If UA were growing SEA into a hub I would question that statement if UA said it was profitable.
Last edited by United1 on Thu May 31, 2018 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jetero
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:35 pm

flybry wrote:
United1 wrote:
jetero wrote:

DEN never was their most profitable hub any more than UA saved any on the bottom line by leaving JFK. Mere rhetoric to soften the blow of the domestic capacity increases that ran counter to the rest of the industry.


Per UA DEN is UAs most profitable hub....

"United’s focus on Denver is no accident; the airport is its most profitable hub, a key part of its route network, and is a focus for continued growth within the airline"

https://www.airlinereporter.com/2018/04 ... -airlines/


Thank you United1 :) I knew I had read that somewhere.


Scott Kirby said it once, on an earnings call during a period where United was growing domestic capacity at DEN by 6%+ following the F9 pulldown to go on defensive against WN, and prefaced it by saying, "I know people will find this hard to believe (hmmmmm . . . wonder why?), but DEN is our most profitable hub." I'm sure by some metric (mainline only, domestic only) it may be a top performer but I doubt it is fully-loaded, apples to apples. Airlines make comments like these all the time to soften the Wall Street impacts of moves that seem counter to the rest of the industry. This most recent earnings call, they referred to particular outperformance in the energy sector. While I'm sure it has improved markedly, I also suspect that was a way of "explaining" upcoming capacity growth at IAH. And it works . . . every report after the DEN earnings call reported that it was the "most profitable hub" and it keeps on getting recycled. Same with IAH. No different than the rhetoric when UA exited JFK.

BAML equity analysts released a report on hub margin contribution in March 2018 "Breaking Down DAL's Margin Edge." That report showed the hubs with the highest margin versus the system to be AA at CLT, DL at ATL, and UA at IAH. UA at DEN slightly underperformed the system average, and ORD was slightly worse than DEN. This was an independent estimation applying the same standards uniformly to all of the hubs. Sure it is a "guess" and what matters is how UA accounts for hub profitability, but I doubt that they could get it so wrong that it would result in a hub performing at the average to all of a sudden be the top performer.

Of course we won't know for sure (unless you take the one-off comments to heart) until you see UA's proprietary internal pro formas by hub. Which we won't. So believe whatever you want to believe.
Last edited by jetero on Thu May 31, 2018 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7026
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:41 pm

varsity wrote:
jplatts wrote:
I agree that some slots at JFK should be given to UA, and I agree that UA should be accommodated at JFK.


Why, because UA-CO have been so generous in accommodating newcomers at Fort Newark?

They gave EWR slots to WN to facilitate the merger.
adamblang wrote:
I'd love to see JFK service to each of the UA hubs. Flying out of Chicago, it's not uncommon for the best looking itineraries for international travel to be B6 to JFK and then a Star carrier onward. If I were Scott Kirby for a day, I'd put four daily IAH-JFK on E75s, four daily IAD-JFK on E45s, six daily ORD-JFK on E75s, two daily DEN-JFK on 738s, and a billion 752s on SFO-JFK and LAX-JFK.

Absolutely no airline has made JFK-Houston work. Even if B6 is still flying it, its loss leading at best.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
gmcc
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:54 am

Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Thu May 31, 2018 11:46 pm

:stirthepot: If UA wanted to get back in at JFK all they need to do is buy AS who has set up shop in their old stomping ground at T7. As a bonus they would get total domination at SFO :stirthepot:
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3646
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:29 am

Nothing new here. He said this before, and nothing has happened since. And it's not like he can be believed anyway. At heart it's a simple math problem. Clearly the "mistake" of leaving JFK isn't worth the price to re-enter organically. That tells us the "mistake" is either minor, or not a mistake at all. Considering how AA has withered away at JFK under Kirby's watch, it's not like he has a history of placing importance in the airport, calling into question his own beliefs about its "network" importance.
 
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jfklganyc
Topic Author
Posts: 5612
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: United ❤️ JFK...Now

Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:47 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Nothing new here. He said this before, and nothing has happened since. And it's not like he can be believed anyway. At heart it's a simple math problem. Clearly the "mistake" of leaving JFK isn't worth the price to re-enter organically. That tells us the "mistake" is either minor, or not a mistake at all. Considering how AA has withered away at JFK under Kirby's watch, it's not like he has a history of placing importance in the airport, calling into question his own beliefs about its "network" importance.


If an officer of UA is not believed, who is believed....the guy in his underwear posting on a.net?

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