wjcandee
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FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:33 am

Interesting report on Tucker Carlson tonight, interviewing an attorney who was previously a controller for 34 years, including training (he said hundreds of) controllers. He is representing people who are challenging the Obama FAA 2014 change in hiring practices. The avowed purpose of the change was to make the controller corps less white.

Central to the strategy is a "questionnaire" about a person's work and educational background that must be completed and scored to determine if a person is eligible for the hiring pool. In other words, if you don't score sufficiently on the background questionnaire, anything else about your background and abilities is irrelevant. You are disqualified.

So here's what the questionnaire includes:

A question as to what your worst subject was in school. There were several options, including science, math, and a few others. The BEST answer for you to give was that "Science" was your WORST subject. 10 points for that answer. More points is better.

A question about how many suggestions you had made to your employer in the last 3 years. The BEST answer (10 points) was that you were not employed in the last 3 years and therefore made no suggestions. (In other words, it's a disguised question designed to determine whether you have been employed in the last 3 years, and you get 10 points if you have not been.)

In another question: 10 points for having no relevant experience, 4 points for having ATC experience, 2 points for being a pilot. Seriously.

In short, it's a questionnaire designed to ask questions that technically are permissible, in order to determine information that it is illegal to ask directly in screening: what's your race or ethnic background.

That it awards HIGH scores for matters that plainly are disadvantages in the profession for which it is screening reveals the lunacy of this thing. No matter where the attention is coming from, the disinfecting effect of sunlight on this thing hopefully will lead to changes that will preserve the integrity of a profession that currently employs an amazingly-talented group. (That they put all those planes on the ground on Sept. 11 in a very short time with no accidents was the example that Carlson gave about how good controllers, as a group, really are.)
 
crownvic
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:13 am

May I ask what the point is of your post?
 
GoSteelers
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:15 am

Don’t believe everything a lawyer says...
 
grbauc
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:32 am

crownvic wrote:
May I ask what the point is of your post?



I think it’s a good question maybe this kind a ridiculous policy should be changed it does nothing to increase safety and aviation but compromises the safety of air traffic system. Such a hard demanding position requires the basket are the best
 
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IrishTexan
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:35 am

That discussion also caught my attention.
Here's a link to the show segment for y'all.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/579262232900 ... show-clips
 
Planeflyer
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FAA has instituted new hiring practices to foster diversity in ATC positions

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:40 am

Not sure in which forum this belongs or if it has been covered but since it concerns ATC I thought it belonged in commercial.

Seems the FAA under the previous administration is pushing for diversity over competence in ATC hiring:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/08/ ... y.amp.html

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/A ... 913-1.html
 
spacecadet
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:46 am

wjcandee wrote:
In short, it's a questionnaire designed to ask questions that technically are permissible, in order to determine information that it is illegal to ask directly in screening: what's your race or ethnic background.


Umm, what? This is specifically *required* to be asked by law, and is on the standard FAA employment form (pdf link): https://jobs.faa.gov/forms/rmc_form.pdf
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
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KLASM83
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:04 am

spacecadet wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
In short, it's a questionnaire designed to ask questions that technically are permissible, in order to determine information that it is illegal to ask directly in screening: what's your race or ethnic background.


Umm, what? This is specifically *required* to be asked by law, and is on the standard FAA employment form (pdf link): https://jobs.faa.gov/forms/rmc_form.pdf


I'd say the main grief and consternation from this is that there was a good, solid pipeline of folks from the Collegiate Training Initiative (CTI), who graduated, were guaranteed review by a hiring panel, and then -in late 2013- had all of that, including preferential hiring, tossed out.

In turn, this lumped those who went to college for the subject of air traffic control with people from off the street (OTS), and while not a particularly bad thing on it's face, led to the repeated turning away of qualified candidates who couldn't "beat" the Biographic Questionnaire, while OTS people with were taken into the Academy.

Class failure rates generally hover in the 40-50% range, and may be declining, but this put a lot of people (me included) who had planned, trained and went to school for ATC out to fend for themselves instead of going into the career they wanted.
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ual763
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:30 am

KLASM83 wrote:
spacecadet wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
In short, it's a questionnaire designed to ask questions that technically are permissible, in order to determine information that it is illegal to ask directly in screening: what's your race or ethnic background.


Umm, what? This is specifically *required* to be asked by law, and is on the standard FAA employment form (pdf link): https://jobs.faa.gov/forms/rmc_form.pdf


I'd say the main grief and consternation from this is that there was a good, solid pipeline of folks from the Collegiate Training Initiative (CTI), who graduated, were guaranteed review by a hiring panel, and then -in late 2013- had all of that, including preferential hiring, tossed out.

In turn, this lumped those who went to college for the subject of air traffic control with people from off the street (OTS), and while not a particularly bad thing on it's face, led to the repeated turning away of qualified candidates who couldn't "beat" the Biographic Questionnaire, while OTS people with were taken into the Academy.

Class failure rates generally hover in the 40-50% range, and may be declining, but this put a lot of people (me included) who had planned, trained and went to school for ATC out to fend for themselves instead of going into the career they wanted.


Back then before moving to another aspect of aviation, this screwed me over too. I distinctly remember a few of the questions. The ones that stood out to me were:

Q1.) Would you rather live in a treehouse or a cave.
Q2.) Which ONE of the following would you consider to be true about yourself?
a.) Motivated
b.) Determined

Myself and thousands of other students at the time who had lived and breathed ATC, who have spent thousands getting a degree, which also just so happened to be implemented by the FAA, suddenly were told you hold the same weight as an off the street candidate. In fact, we apparently are worse than off the street candidates according to this report. And the FAA wonders why the failure rates are so bad. Some classes going through the academy have 75%+ failure rates, with the average being more than 50%. Guess who the ones washing out are? You guessed it, primarily the OTS hires. The appalling part, is that even prior-military controllers are being turned away in favor of OTS candidates. It’s simply shameful, and to top it all off, back in 2013 when these changes were implemented, the members of the National Black Coalition of Federal Aviation Employees were given the correct answers to the Biographical questionnaire by an FAA Supervisor.
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ual763
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:30 am

Prost wrote:
And Tucker Carlson and Fox News are NEVER biased.


It's a true story. Ask any one of us that went through it.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Prost
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:31 am

And Tucker Carlson and Fox News are NEVER biased.
 
m007j
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:17 am

I assumed all the questions on that assessment were meant to assess your mental capacity and establish the pattern in which you think rather than to weed out CTI candidates-at least that's the feeling I got when I took it last year. I have no real world aviation experience whatsoever and I got picked for enroute school, so maybe I am the poster child for the program...But a pattern of behavioral questions seemed pretty evident when I took it, maybe a psychologist could weigh in on what the questions are really getting at.
 
stratclub
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:36 am

What they now call "Diversity and inclusion" is just a more politicaly warped version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action and is big business for companies that offer educational courses that employers can ram down employees throat to ensure companies meet mandated "diversity" training requirements. The example about ATC controllers is a VG example of D&I policies not being in step with the requirements of the work place or even the intent of affirmative action.

I have read the syllabus for some of those courses and it's just amazing how much they preach is just plain old fabrication used to sell their product. One company I read about claimed that ramming their course down the throats of a companies employees would increase productivity by something like 50%. Just amazing.
 
Varsity1
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:42 am

Prost wrote:
And Tucker Carlson and Fox News are NEVER biased.


It's well known social engineering. Not a conspiracy.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
stratclub
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:44 am

crownvic wrote:
May I ask what the point is of your post?

Read post #1 without dismissing everything the OP posted.
 
32andBelow
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:09 am

They brought back the college preference 2 years ago though so I don’t see why the lawsuit is still relevant.
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:12 am

Unfortunately this is a very true story. Here is another source:

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/A ... 913-1.html

Its sad but the FAA and Government are more concerned about meeting quotas than employing (better) qualified individuals to separate airplanes. It's also one of many reasons management sucks. Qualified, respected people are never moved-up. Than again, qualified respected people are smart enough to avoid management positions.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:40 am

spacecadet wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
In short, it's a questionnaire designed to ask questions that technically are permissible, in order to determine information that it is illegal to ask directly in screening: what's your race or ethnic background.


Umm, what? This is specifically *required* to be asked by law, and is on the standard FAA employment form (pdf link): https://jobs.faa.gov/forms/rmc_form.pdf


Respectfully, they ask that information at the end of the form you supplied, and it is illegal to factor it into a hiring decision. Again, it is illegal to ask your race as a screening question for hiring. It is not illegal to ask for a voluntary report of demographic information that will be separated from the application and not used in decisionmaking.

What I'm talking about is a questionnaire that asks questions designed to weed certain people out of the hiring pool -- and not people who don't have the skills, people who don't have the right skin color, plain and simple. There are smart ways to increase diversity in employment, legitimate ones, which try to get people in the desired pool to hone their skill set so that they are functionally-competitive. Recruiting people who have the aptitude, helping some people who don't, with scholarships, etc., to develop those skills. Those are great initiatives and should be thoroughly-funded. But the shortcut of simply weeding out the actually-qualified candidates so the desired candidates appear more competitive with those that also pass the initial screening is revolting and probably-illegal. It can all be fixed with a simple rule change and hopefully it will be. Because the next thing that is going to happen if it doesn't is that they will put pressure on the trainers to pass students who didn't pass, in order to reduce the washout rate, and then to put unqualified people out on the line.
 
ual763
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:32 am

32andBelow wrote:
They brought back the college preference 2 years ago though so I don’t see why the lawsuit is still relevant.


That’s all fine and dandy, but what about the thousands of people who were extremely qualified for the position, but then in those 2 years where they were doing this stupid questionnaire, they timed out? Once you hit 31 y/o you’re done. Cannot be considered anymore. Period. Some got an extension, but most of those who did get an extension, just never got a call back and now the extensions are over without possibility for another.
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ual763
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:34 am

m007j wrote:
I assumed all the questions on that assessment were meant to assess your mental capacity and establish the pattern in which you think rather than to weed out CTI candidates-at least that's the feeling I got when I took it last year. I have no real world aviation experience whatsoever and I got picked for enroute school, so maybe I am the poster child for the program...But a pattern of behavioral questions seemed pretty evident when I took it, maybe a psychologist could weigh in on what the questions are really getting at.


You took a different version of the test. We’re talking about the one from four years ago.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
ual763
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:21 am

m007j wrote:
I assumed all the questions on that assessment were meant to assess your mental capacity and establish the pattern in which you think rather than to weed out CTI candidates-at least that's the feeling I got when I took it last year. I have no real world aviation experience whatsoever and I got picked for enroute school, so maybe I am the poster child for the program...But a pattern of behavioral questions seemed pretty evident when I took it, maybe a psychologist could weigh in on what the questions are really getting at.


And sorry, I can’t edit the other post anymore, but I’d like to add this. Didn’t you find the questions to be quite odd though? Like would you consider yourself more determined or motivated? What kind of dumb question is that? There were a bunch like that. I’ve taken Hogan assessments at many places, and none were like this one.

The new version gives people a few more points for CTI graduation, but the underlying test is still the same. Pilots still get fewer points than high school athletes... Also, while CTI gets a few more points, it’s still designed to weed them out. Just look at the demographics in each academy class. It seems more than half are still OTS. And surprise surprise, the pass rate is still 50-60%...

Hell, I played 2 varsity sports in high school, had my dispatch rating, a CTI degree, my flight ratings, and various other aviation experience, and over 15 years of progressive work experience (the minimum is supposedly 3). Then, you see people with absolutely no aviation experience whatsoever, no prior jobs, who haven’t even graduated from the CTI program (or who, more likely, aren’t even in it at all) get hired. Yeah, it’s messed up.

Another reason why most of us are so pissed, is because we had already taken the previous entry exam and passed with flying colors. With this program, the FAA threw those scores out. I’m talking about the ATSAT. We were required to take it in college. For those not aware, that is the test that was used for many many years, Which honestly is a much better assessment than this crap test. That one measured actual ability. Math, promoting a good screen scan, memory tests, etc. But not anymore. I had a 99% on that test, only for it to get thrown out and then told I need to take a biographical questionnaire that was designed in the first place to weed me out, because of my prior aviation experiences. Meanwhile, at UND a sophomore in accounting, without his degree, but who maintained a part-time job at Cold-Stone Creamery got picked up...
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
trnswrld
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:15 pm

Yeah that whole hiring process was bad news and I’m glad that didn’t last long. I don’t care what race you are......a person that has prior experience, college degree, pilots, military....absolutely should get priority over an off the street hire. Hire all those candidates first then do whatever the heck you gotta do for off the street hires.
As far as I’m concerned that hiring program was racist.
Now with that said, I know some OTS hires that are excellent controllers so I am by no means disrespecting them, but in NO other career ever would a person with experience or college degree be turned down over someone with NO experience.
I feel bad for any person that did not get the chance at the job that really had a passion for it and worked hard and spent money on pursuing that career only for it to be offered to someone that possibly couldn’t careless about the actual job and just saw the salary.

Edit: I just saw ual763’s post above mine and I was under the impression that program was done, but apparently maybe it’s not.
I have been in the agency for about 12 years at a level 12 facility and to be honest no one ever really talks about the hiring process so I don’t even know what’s going on. Based on what I am seeing at my facility as far as new hires go, I can say without a doubt most new hires are young white males which is obviously expected....but seems to be more so than ever actually. If this program was really geared to getting more diversity, it seems to be failing ....atleast here.
Last edited by trnswrld on Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
ual763
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:25 pm

trnswrld wrote:
Yeah that whole hiring process was bad news and I’m glad that didn’t last long. I don’t care what race you are......a person that has prior experience, college degree, pilots, military....absolutely should get priority over an off the street hire. Hire all those candidates first then do whatever the heck you gotta do for off the street hires.
As far as I’m concerned that hiring program was racist.
Now with that said, I know some OTS hires that are excellent controllers so I am by no means disrespecting them, but in NO other career ever would a person with experience or college degree be turned down over someone with NO experience.
I feel bad for any person that did not get the chance at the job that really had a passion for it and worked hard and spent money on pursuing that career only for it to be offered to someone that possibly couldn’t careless about the actual job and just saw the salary.


Couldn’t agree more trnswrld. Unfortunately, as if it didn’t suck enough, a good percentage of these OTS hires who passed the biographical questionnaire, never showed up on the first day of the academy. Another percentage failed the drug screening on the initial medical exam. What a waste...
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:43 pm

32andBelow wrote:
They brought back the college preference 2 years ago though so I don’t see why the lawsuit is still relevant.


Prior applicants still suffered harm under the old system, or that is the allegation. Rules changes in 2016 don’t help these plaintiffs. Those who study in specialized aviation schools along with former military should get preference...the latter should be legally mandated if it isn’t already.
 
ual763
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:58 pm

trnswrld wrote:


Edit: I just saw ual763’s post above mine and I was under the impression that program was done, but apparently maybe it’s not.
I have been in the agency for about 12 years at a level 12 facility and to be honest no one ever really talks about the hiring process so I don’t even know what’s going on. Based on what I am seeing at my facility as far as new hires go, I can say without a doubt most new hires are young white males which is obviously expected....but seems to be more so than ever actually. If this program was really geared to getting more diversity, it seems to be failing ....atleast here.


It’s been changed slightly. Basically, now CTI students just get a few extra points on the questionnaire that they didn’t before. BUT, the whole thing is still heavily weighted towards OTS candidates. For example, If a candidate checks “no experience” it still yields a higher percentage of points then a candidate who checks that he has a pilots’ certificate. Just look at the academy pass rates. They are abysmal. A good friend of mine who went through the academy recently, said that 2 people failed to show up on the first day of class. 1failed the drug test. 2 were in over their heads in AT Basics and then left. 1 failed AT Basics outright. And 5 more OTS failed sim evals. Only 1 OTS person in the class passed the academy.

As for those of us who aged out, we are done. Others, who were given an exemption were told that their ATSAT scores they had taken at the beginning of their CTI program were thrown out, and that only after completing the Bio-Q would they be allowed to re-take it. Personally, I scored a 99 on the ATSAT, but that was thrown away in the new hiring process. Unfortunately, I will never be a controller at ORD as I had dreamed as a kid. But now, I’ve gone down the flying path.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
trnswrld
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:47 pm

ual763 wrote:
Personally, I scored a 99 on the ATSAT, but that was thrown away in the new hiring process. Unfortunately, I will never be a controller at ORD as I had dreamed as a kid. But now, I’ve gone down the flying path.


Man I’m really sorry to hear that. That is so frustrating even to myself who is about halfway through my career as an ATC. To hear stories about people literally being denied and told you cannot pursue your dream. That’s not right! I also know for a fact staff at the academy were extremely upset with the situation and quality of people they were dealing with that this new hiring process was generating. Such a waste of quality candidates.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:34 pm

Personally, the real initiative should start in high schools with career fairs, and not some affirmative action program for later on in life. So many kids do not know the possibilities that are out there for good careers because they are:
(1) not exposed to them
(2) school counselors bogged down with paperwork and social situations and not able to "guide"
(3) always made to feel like a traditional university is only way to obtain a career (when I personally feel like most university degrees are completely useless for real world living)

A simple example would be Spartan Aviation in Tulsa, OK. A school designed with aviation careers in mind. My nephew began the flight program last summer and loves it. He'll have a 4 year degree and be on track for a great career in something he loves. A 4 year traditional college degree would have eaten him alive.

ATC for me is likewise oriented. I'd rather have someone who went to school and was trained for ATC from the get go. Let the specialized university system weed them out.

BUT, we need to do a better job of exposing kids to the choices that are out there. Not creating a test questionnaire designed to discriminate based on social factors. But consider the source.
 
727200
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:44 pm

Yes the 'previous administration' placed the color of your skin to be the determining factor for employment in all facets of Government and ATC was no exception. The question then becomes, would you want someone with minimal experience, skills, and aptitude in charge of your plane and those around you hurling at 450 mph in tight quarters? Take your time to respond, its only your life to worry about. Oh, and thank God that 'previous administration' is gone.
 
N353SK
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:44 pm

Is there any evidence that the CTI graduates have a better pass rate at the academy in OKC or have fewer washouts at their facility?

Full disclosure: I'm a white, male, college educated, gainfully employed, ATP holder who passed the application and BQ section a few years ago (and decided against taking the AT-SA). What I remember is that a lot of people who weren't accepted just didn't fill out the resume section exactly how the FAA wanted it (it was ridiculously anal).
 
m007j
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:45 pm

ual763 wrote:
m007j wrote:
I assumed all the questions on that assessment were meant to assess your mental capacity and establish the pattern in which you think rather than to weed out CTI candidates-at least that's the feeling I got when I took it last year. I have no real world aviation experience whatsoever and I got picked for enroute school, so maybe I am the poster child for the program...But a pattern of behavioral questions seemed pretty evident when I took it, maybe a psychologist could weigh in on what the questions are really getting at.


And sorry, I can’t edit the other post anymore, but I’d like to add this. Didn’t you find the questions to be quite odd though? Like would you consider yourself more determined or motivated? What kind of dumb question is that? There were a bunch like that. I’ve taken Hogan assessments at many places, and none were like this one.

The new version gives people a few more points for CTI graduation, but the underlying test is still the same. Pilots still get fewer points than high school athletes... Also, while CTI gets a few more points, it’s still designed to weed them out. Just look at the demographics in each academy class. It seems more than half are still OTS. And surprise surprise, the pass rate is still 50-60%...

Hell, I played 2 varsity sports in high school, had my dispatch rating, a CTI degree, my flight ratings, and various other aviation experience, and over 15 years of progressive work experience (the minimum is supposedly 3). Then, you see people with absolutely no aviation experience whatsoever, no prior jobs, who haven’t even graduated from the CTI program (or who, more likely, aren’t even in it at all) get hired. Yeah, it’s messed up.

Another reason why most of us are so pissed, is because we had already taken the previous entry exam and passed with flying colors. With this program, the FAA threw those scores out. I’m talking about the ATSAT. We were required to take it in college. For those not aware, that is the test that was used for many many years, Which honestly is a much better assessment than this crap test. That one measured actual ability. Math, promoting a good screen scan, memory tests, etc. But not anymore. I had a 99% on that test, only for it to get thrown out and then told I need to take a biographical questionnaire that was designed in the first place to weed me out, because of my prior aviation experiences. Meanwhile, at UND a sophomore in accounting, without his degree, but who maintained a part-time job at Cold-Stone Creamery got picked up...

By and large, no. There were a few that were way out there but most of them looked standard. For example the question that you picked out, you could maybe tie both of those words and meanings back to a tactical vs strategic situation in an ATC environment. If your nice row of arrivals into JFK gets thrown off by one cowboy who won't slow to 210 when you asked him to and now LGA is coming after you because the guy behind him didn't hear your instructions and is now over their departure path, are you determined to keep your SOP or are you going to be motivated to take the extra step to be proactive and avoid the conflict with a neighboring controller?
I'll also say I am NOT defending the FAA; I don't work for them, I turned down the academy spot, the above example is just how my brain works. I was honestly doing stuff like this through the whole BIO-Q. Now the AT-SA is a straight skills test and very well done; it's challenging even when you know what's coming and you can't study for it. You either have the aptitude or you don't, frankly this should be the first test everyone takes.
As for a sample size as to who got through the BIO-Q and took the AT-SA with me (this is aimed at another poster shortly upthread): I took it with 19 others, 16 were white, 3 African-American, and 1 was South Asian (me). 6 were women, and 11 already had PPLs (they used it as their government ID, which I personally thought was just showing off :smile: ). All of us were between the ages of 21-26 and none of us had gone to an aviation school.
 
UALifer
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:59 pm

ual763 wrote:
trnswrld wrote:


Edit: I just saw ual763’s post above mine and I was under the impression that program was done, but apparently maybe it’s not.
I have been in the agency for about 12 years at a level 12 facility and to be honest no one ever really talks about the hiring process so I don’t even know what’s going on. Based on what I am seeing at my facility as far as new hires go, I can say without a doubt most new hires are young white males which is obviously expected....but seems to be more so than ever actually. If this program was really geared to getting more diversity, it seems to be failing ....atleast here.


It’s been changed slightly. Basically, now CTI students just get a few extra points on the questionnaire that they didn’t before. BUT, the whole thing is still heavily weighted towards OTS candidates.


This isn't true. As of 2016, CTI graduates and veterans no longer have to take the Bio-Q. OTS hires do. The only requirement now is that the FAA pulls roughly half of new hires from the CTI/veteran pool and half the hires from the OTS pool.
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:10 pm

UALifer wrote:
ual763 wrote:
trnswrld wrote:


Edit: I just saw ual763’s post above mine and I was under the impression that program was done, but apparently maybe it’s not.
I have been in the agency for about 12 years at a level 12 facility and to be honest no one ever really talks about the hiring process so I don’t even know what’s going on. Based on what I am seeing at my facility as far as new hires go, I can say without a doubt most new hires are young white males which is obviously expected....but seems to be more so than ever actually. If this program was really geared to getting more diversity, it seems to be failing ....atleast here.


It’s been changed slightly. Basically, now CTI students just get a few extra points on the questionnaire that they didn’t before. BUT, the whole thing is still heavily weighted towards OTS candidates.


This isn't true. As of 2016, CTI graduates and veterans no longer have to take the Bio-Q. OTS hires do. The only requirement now is that the FAA pulls roughly half of new hires from the CTI/veteran pool and half the hires from the OTS pool.


I stand corrected, you’re correct. However, the 2015 bid was true in that regard compared to the 2014 bid, at least that’s what was reported on the various CTI sites. But many of us applied to the OTS bid because we didn’t make the experienced/CTI bid. That’s what I was referring to. I should’ve made it more clear. Doesn’t matter for me anyways. That ship has sailed for me either way.
Last edited by ual763 on Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:15 pm

N353SK wrote:
Is there any evidence that the CTI graduates have a better pass rate at the academy in OKC or have fewer washouts at their facility?

Full disclosure: I'm a white, male, college educated, gainfully employed, ATP holder who passed the application and BQ section a few years ago (and decided against taking the AT-SA). What I remember is that a lot of people who weren't accepted just didn't fill out the resume section exactly how the FAA wanted it (it was ridiculously anal).


From a friend that just went through the academy and is now at Chicago Center. Once they pass the academy, washout rates at the facilities are similar, as the CTI schools train students to pass the academy. The big difference however, is the pass rate in the academy. In my friend’s class, 2 OTS candidates never bothered showing up on the first day of class. 1 OTS student failed a drug test. 3 washed out in the AT Basics section of the Academy. And another 4-5 washed out of the sim eval portion. All CTIs in his class at least passed.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:54 pm

ual763 wrote:
trnswrld wrote:


Edit: I just saw ual763’s post above mine and I was under the impression that program was done, but apparently maybe it’s not.
I have been in the agency for about 12 years at a level 12 facility and to be honest no one ever really talks about the hiring process so I don’t even know what’s going on. Based on what I am seeing at my facility as far as new hires go, I can say without a doubt most new hires are young white males which is obviously expected....but seems to be more so than ever actually. If this program was really geared to getting more diversity, it seems to be failing ....atleast here.


It’s been changed slightly. Basically, now CTI students just get a few extra points on the questionnaire that they didn’t before. BUT, the whole thing is still heavily weighted towards OTS candidates. For example, If a candidate checks “no experience” it still yields a higher percentage of points then a candidate who checks that he has a pilots’ certificate. Just look at the academy pass rates. They are abysmal. A good friend of mine who went through the academy recently, said that 2 people failed to show up on the first day of class. 1failed the drug test. 2 were in over their heads in AT Basics and then left. 1 failed AT Basics outright. And 5 more OTS failed sim evals. Only 1 OTS person in the class passed the academy.

As for those of us who aged out, we are done. Others, who were given an exemption were told that their ATSAT scores they had taken at the beginning of their CTI program were thrown out, and that only after completing the Bio-Q would they be allowed to re-take it. Personally, I scored a 99 on the ATSAT, but that was thrown away in the new hiring process. Unfortunately, I will never be a controller at ORD as I had dreamed as a kid. But now, I’ve gone down the flying path.

Wrong. Pool 1 gets to skip the questionarre all together and go straight to the aptitude test. I just went through it all and hired under the 2016 bid.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:57 pm

ual763 wrote:
N353SK wrote:
Is there any evidence that the CTI graduates have a better pass rate at the academy in OKC or have fewer washouts at their facility?

Full disclosure: I'm a white, male, college educated, gainfully employed, ATP holder who passed the application and BQ section a few years ago (and decided against taking the AT-SA). What I remember is that a lot of people who weren't accepted just didn't fill out the resume section exactly how the FAA wanted it (it was ridiculously anal).


From a friend that just went through the academy and is now at Chicago Center. Once they pass the academy, washout rates at the facilities are similar, as the CTI schools train students to pass the academy. The big difference however, is the pass rate in the academy. In my friend’s class, 2 OTS candidates never bothered showing up on the first day of class. 1 OTS student failed a drug test. 3 washed out in the AT Basics section of the Academy. And another 4-5 washed out of the sim eval portion. All CTIs in his class at least passed.

Washout rates are not as bad st the centers as they are at the academy.
 
MrBretz
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:59 pm

Does 32andBelow’s post mean Tucker’s story on FOX news has been history for a couple years?
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:08 pm

32andBelow wrote:
ual763 wrote:
trnswrld wrote:


Edit: I just saw ual763’s post above mine and I was under the impression that program was done, but apparently maybe it’s not.
I have been in the agency for about 12 years at a level 12 facility and to be honest no one ever really talks about the hiring process so I don’t even know what’s going on. Based on what I am seeing at my facility as far as new hires go, I can say without a doubt most new hires are young white males which is obviously expected....but seems to be more so than ever actually. If this program was really geared to getting more diversity, it seems to be failing ....atleast here.


It’s been changed slightly. Basically, now CTI students just get a few extra points on the questionnaire that they didn’t before. BUT, the whole thing is still heavily weighted towards OTS candidates. For example, If a candidate checks “no experience” it still yields a higher percentage of points then a candidate who checks that he has a pilots’ certificate. Just look at the academy pass rates. They are abysmal. A good friend of mine who went through the academy recently, said that 2 people failed to show up on the first day of class. 1failed the drug test. 2 were in over their heads in AT Basics and then left. 1 failed AT Basics outright. And 5 more OTS failed sim evals. Only 1 OTS person in the class passed the academy.

As for those of us who aged out, we are done. Others, who were given an exemption were told that their ATSAT scores they had taken at the beginning of their CTI program were thrown out, and that only after completing the Bio-Q would they be allowed to re-take it. Personally, I scored a 99 on the ATSAT, but that was thrown away in the new hiring process. Unfortunately, I will never be a controller at ORD as I had dreamed as a kid. But now, I’ve gone down the flying path.

Wrong. Pool 1 gets to skip the questionarre all together and go straight to the aptitude test. I just went through it all and hired under the 2016 bid.


What do you mean by Pool 1? It’s my understanding that Prior Experience/Military skips questionnaire, but CTIs are different and still take it just like OTSs. But as I said before, the last one I did that was technically meant for CTIs (as well as Military and OTS) was the original 2014 one. After I didn’t make the cut, I applied a year or so later to the OTS bid which Opened up. That one still had the Bio-Q and even though it was OTS, it still asked for relevant experience with the ability to check CTI as an option. We were told, after the fiasco a year before, CTI grads were given extra points on this one. After I still didn’t make the cut apparently, I said eff it and decided to fly. Shortly after that, In 2016 they apparently made it so that CTIs didn’t have to take BioQ, as you point out. Anyways, I’ve already spent tons of money switching careers and am not willing to go back now. I’m effectively done. It’s nice that you got in during the 2016 bid, but there are a ton of us who were more than qualified in 2014 and were effed over in favor of “diversity”. The FAA even said this themselves.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2887
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:05 pm

UALifer wrote:
ual763 wrote:
trnswrld wrote:


Edit: I just saw ual763’s post above mine and I was under the impression that program was done, but apparently maybe it’s not.
I have been in the agency for about 12 years at a level 12 facility and to be honest no one ever really talks about the hiring process so I don’t even know what’s going on. Based on what I am seeing at my facility as far as new hires go, I can say without a doubt most new hires are young white males which is obviously expected....but seems to be more so than ever actually. If this program was really geared to getting more diversity, it seems to be failing ....atleast here.


It’s been changed slightly. Basically, now CTI students just get a few extra points on the questionnaire that they didn’t before. BUT, the whole thing is still heavily weighted towards OTS candidates.


This isn't true. As of 2016, CTI graduates and veterans no longer have to take the Bio-Q. OTS hires do. The only requirement now is that the FAA pulls roughly half of new hires from the CTI/veteran pool and half the hires from the OTS pool.

Which is still affirmative action. The CTI/veteran pool should be exhausted first and then the street pool called, with an extra year for the OTS pool before expiration.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 7935
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:10 pm

MrBretz wrote:
Does 32andBelow’s post mean Tucker’s story on FOX news has been history for a couple years?


No. ATC hiring used to be a purely-objective, merit score based endeavor. This was jettisoned and still is, except that folks who went through the FAA-sponsored college curriculum are no longer basically-disqualified from obtaining an ATC job. It's still not a merit-based hiring scheme. However, when Tucker asked the guest whether Congress had done anything about this, the guest didn't mention that Congress did do something in 2016, which was to mandate the inclusion of at least some military controllers and program grads. But the folks like UAL did in fact get completely-screwed by the Obama FAA in 2014, which tossed their scores and made them ineligible for employment purely on the basis of their skin color.

One big development Thursday was that the plaintiff in the class action had his full range of requested relief restored -- that is, he can now seek to be allowed to compete for the job that he had studied for, which a previous judge had stricken as a possibility. https://www.mountainstateslegal.org/new ... xL0DEgvyUk

I pulled the order on PACER and read it, but I have a subscription. Very interesting.
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:31 pm

And to further clarify, I was told by an FAA HR rep that after failing the first time, I would be better
served by applying in the OTS bid when it came out again. That’s what I did, and I still failed the BioQ. Maybe being more comfortable in a treehouse was the wrong answer... Sure, I could keep on applying, but what’s the point, I will time out shortly, and Why waste my time, just to get turned down again? I enjoy flying also, so that’s what I am now content with. But, it doesn’t change the fact that 4 years ago, both myself and thousands of other applicants were screwed over. Many of whom were ex-military who had actual experience in ATC.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:35 pm

ual763 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
ual763 wrote:

It’s been changed slightly. Basically, now CTI students just get a few extra points on the questionnaire that they didn’t before. BUT, the whole thing is still heavily weighted towards OTS candidates. For example, If a candidate checks “no experience” it still yields a higher percentage of points then a candidate who checks that he has a pilots’ certificate. Just look at the academy pass rates. They are abysmal. A good friend of mine who went through the academy recently, said that 2 people failed to show up on the first day of class. 1failed the drug test. 2 were in over their heads in AT Basics and then left. 1 failed AT Basics outright. And 5 more OTS failed sim evals. Only 1 OTS person in the class passed the academy.

As for those of us who aged out, we are done. Others, who were given an exemption were told that their ATSAT scores they had taken at the beginning of their CTI program were thrown out, and that only after completing the Bio-Q would they be allowed to re-take it. Personally, I scored a 99 on the ATSAT, but that was thrown away in the new hiring process. Unfortunately, I will never be a controller at ORD as I had dreamed as a kid. But now, I’ve gone down the flying path.

Wrong. Pool 1 gets to skip the questionarre all together and go straight to the aptitude test. I just went through it all and hired under the 2016 bid.


What do you mean by Pool 1? It’s my understanding that Prior Experience/Military skips questionnaire, but CTIs are different and still take it just like OTSs. But as I said before, the last one I did that was technically meant for CTIs (as well as Military and OTS) was the original 2014 one. After I didn’t make the cut, I applied a year or so later to the OTS bid which Opened up. That one still had the Bio-Q and even though it was OTS, it still asked for relevant experience with the ability to check CTI as an option. We were told, after the fiasco a year before, CTI grads were given extra points on this one. After I still didn’t make the cut apparently, I said eff it and decided to fly. Shortly after that, In 2016 they apparently made it so that CTIs didn’t have to take BioQ, as you point out. Anyways, I’ve already spent tons of money switching careers and am not willing to go back now. I’m effectively done. It’s nice that you got in during the 2016 bid, but there are a ton of us who were more than qualified in 2014 and were effed over in favor of “diversity”. The FAA even said this themselves.

No CTI does not take the questionnaire. They go straight to the at sa. If you get a high enough score on the at sa you’ll get hired. If you don’t you won’t. I failed the Bq 3 times until they changed the rules in 2016. Then I got hired and went to the academy
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:36 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
Does 32andBelow’s post mean Tucker’s story on FOX news has been history for a couple years?


No. ATC hiring used to be a purely-objective, merit score based endeavor. This was jettisoned and still is, except that folks who went through the FAA-sponsored college curriculum are no longer basically-disqualified from obtaining an ATC job. It's still not a merit-based hiring scheme. However, when Tucker asked the guest whether Congress had done anything about this, the guest didn't mention that Congress did do something in 2016, which was to mandate the inclusion of at least some military controllers and program grads. But the folks like UAL did in fact get completely-screwed by the Obama FAA in 2014, which tossed their scores and made them ineligible for employment purely on the basis of their skin color.

One big development Thursday was that the plaintiff in the class action had his full range of requested relief restored -- that is, he can now seek to be allowed to compete for the job that he had studied for, which a previous judge had stricken as a possibility. https://www.mountainstateslegal.org/new ... xL0DEgvyUk

I pulled the order on PACER and read it, but I have a subscription. Very interesting.

How was he unable to apply under the 2016 changes?
 
D L X
Posts: 12482
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:58 pm

stratclub wrote:
What they now call "Diversity and inclusion" is just a more politicaly warped version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action and is big business for companies that offer educational courses that employers can ram down employees throat to ensure companies meet mandated "diversity" training requirements. The example about ATC controllers is a VG example of D&I policies not being in step with the requirements of the work place or even the intent of affirmative action.

I have read the syllabus for some of those courses and it's just amazing how much they preach is just plain old fabrication used to sell their product. One company I read about claimed that ramming their course down the throats of a companies employees would increase productivity by something like 50%. Just amazing.

Sounds like you are a PRIME candidate to attend a diversity and inclusion class.

At the very least you’d learn the difference between D&I and affirmative action.

It never ceases to amaze me just how resistant some white men are to learning about things that aren’t white men.
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 1933
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:00 pm

Prost wrote:
And Tucker Carlson and Fox News are NEVER biased.



Amen...they are, at best, mis-informed...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:13 pm

I saw that report last night, too. I kept thinking how many people have to die in the name of diversity? Really if you need a surgery, are you going to pick the one who went to medical school or the one who has a cool sounding name?
I applied back in 88, but walked away as I would have had to live off my savings to go through training.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:14 pm

Faro wrote:
Prost wrote:
And Tucker Carlson and Fox News are NEVER biased.



Amen...they are, at best, mis-informed...


Faro

Have you ever actually watched?
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:41 pm

32andBelow wrote:
ual763 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Wrong. Pool 1 gets to skip the questionarre all together and go straight to the aptitude test. I just went through it all and hired under the 2016 bid.


What do you mean by Pool 1? It’s my understanding that Prior Experience/Military skips questionnaire, but CTIs are different and still take it just like OTSs. But as I said before, the last one I did that was technically meant for CTIs (as well as Military and OTS) was the original 2014 one. After I didn’t make the cut, I applied a year or so later to the OTS bid which Opened up. That one still had the Bio-Q and even though it was OTS, it still asked for relevant experience with the ability to check CTI as an option. We were told, after the fiasco a year before, CTI grads were given extra points on this one. After I still didn’t make the cut apparently, I said eff it and decided to fly. Shortly after that, In 2016 they apparently made it so that CTIs didn’t have to take BioQ, as you point out. Anyways, I’ve already spent tons of money switching careers and am not willing to go back now. I’m effectively done. It’s nice that you got in during the 2016 bid, but there are a ton of us who were more than qualified in 2014 and were effed over in favor of “diversity”. The FAA even said this themselves.

No CTI does not take the questionnaire. They go straight to the at sa. If you get a high enough score on the at sa you’ll get hired. If you don’t you won’t. I failed the Bq 3 times until they changed the rules in 2016. Then I got hired and went to the academy


After failing it twice, I decided to pursue something else. I wasn't going to wait years and years just to keep risking failure while not getting anywhere with my life. It’s not like I knew at the time I decided to change careers that in another year the FAA was going to do away with the BioQ requirement for CTIers. I have since found my solitude in flying. You were persistent enough to get in. I am happy for you. But, what they did is still not right, and I will forever hold a grudge against them (the FAA, not you guys).
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
stratclub
Posts: 1342
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:17 pm

D L X wrote:
stratclub wrote:
What they now call "Diversity and inclusion" is just a more politicaly warped version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action and is big business for companies that offer educational courses that employers can ram down employees throat to ensure companies meet mandated "diversity" training requirements. The example about ATC controllers is a VG example of D&I policies not being in step with the requirements of the work place or even the intent of affirmative action.

I have read the syllabus for some of those courses and it's just amazing how much they preach is just plain old fabrication used to sell their product. One company I read about claimed that ramming their course down the throats of a companies employees would increase productivity by something like 50%. Just amazing.

Sounds like you are a PRIME candidate to attend a diversity and inclusion class.

At the very least you’d learn the difference between D&I and affirmative action.

It never ceases to amaze me just how resistant some white men are to learning about things that aren’t white men.

I have worked with folks from many parts of the world and in many locations around the world an do enjoy learning about understanding and respecting the customs of other societies. What's really so whacked about the whole D&I and the earlier attempts at D&I called Affirmative Action are that people are given a pass on being qualified for a job because they are part of some government defined minority.

Do you really want someone doing a job that is critical to public safety that their only qualification for the job is that they are a member of a marginalized minority? Sometimes that's exactly how D&I works.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1429
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:34 pm

Faro wrote:
Prost wrote:
And Tucker Carlson and Fox News are NEVER biased.



Amen...they are, at best, mis-informed...


I suppose you’d rather be in the dark on this?

So much for transparency!

It used to be that government malfeasance and corruption would be covered by the press but as we have seen not all scandals get covered.
 
D L X
Posts: 12482
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:33 pm

stratclub wrote:
D L X wrote:
stratclub wrote:
What they now call "Diversity and inclusion" is just a more politicaly warped version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action and is big business for companies that offer educational courses that employers can ram down employees throat to ensure companies meet mandated "diversity" training requirements. The example about ATC controllers is a VG example of D&I policies not being in step with the requirements of the work place or even the intent of affirmative action.

I have read the syllabus for some of those courses and it's just amazing how much they preach is just plain old fabrication used to sell their product. One company I read about claimed that ramming their course down the throats of a companies employees would increase productivity by something like 50%. Just amazing.

Sounds like you are a PRIME candidate to attend a diversity and inclusion class.

At the very least you’d learn the difference between D&I and affirmative action.

It never ceases to amaze me just how resistant some white men are to learning about things that aren’t white men.

I have worked with folks from many parts of the world and in many locations around the world an do enjoy learning about understanding and respecting the customs of other societies. What's really so whacked about the whole D&I and the earlier attempts at D&I called Affirmative Action are that people are given a pass on being qualified for a job because they are part of some government defined minority.

Do you really want someone doing a job that is critical to public safety that their only qualification for the job is that they are a member of a marginalized minority? Sometimes that's exactly how D&I works.

You keep saying D&I is the same thing as Affirnative action. I’m really beginning to believe you actually think they are the same thing.

As for wanting someone doing a job criticalto public safety whose “only” qualification (your words) is being a minority, we can start by correcting your erroneous premise. Under affirmative action, no one gets admitted without meeting base qualification. You deny that, but you know it’s true. In fact, almost everyone admitted is well above the minimum qualification, including the minorities. But none of the APPLICANTS is qualified to be an ATC before they are trained. Suggesting otherwise is silly.

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