SPREE34
Posts: 1730
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:44 am

Prost wrote:
And Tucker Carlson and Fox News are NEVER biased.


He/They nail this, regardless your opinion of them. I had 30 years in the business, and know every word of that report to be true.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 797
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:47 am

You keep saying D&I is the same thing as Affirnative action. I’m really beginning to believe you actually think they are the same thing.


Depending upon how the diversity requirement is defined and applied, they can be. Under Bakke, race and ethnic background can be used as traits or qualifications in college admissions and hiring. The goal is a well-rounded workplace or college environment. I say workplace because Bakke has been used, sometimes tangentially but sometimes more directly in employment cases where race is at issue. If race becomes such a large qualification and is weighted disproportionately against the other qualifications, then it is illegal and a form of discrimination in its own right. The question here is whether or not the diversity initiative placed such a large emphasis upon race that it overrode all other factors. If so, then it is most likely illegal.

As for wanting someone doing a job criticalto public safety whose “only” qualification (your words) is being a minority, we can start by correcting your erroneous premise. Under affirmative action, no one gets admitted without meeting base qualification.


Respectfully, that isn't accurate. Many colleges and universities offer remedial classes for those who do not meet the minimum application and admission requirements specifically to, in their words, redress earlier instances of discrimination. I know that my college did. It actually had a KKK club on campus for many decades - go to the campus library, pull the old yearbooks and see for yourself. Now, when I got there what did I see? Yes, a number of minority admissions who did not meet the minimum application and admission requirements taking remedial classes and this was a very well-thought of small liberal arts college with very high (back then) application requirements. A certain very recent former president went there before being kicked out (allegedly). PM me if you want to know which college I'm talking about. Okay, so how did they get in? Colleges and businesses applying affirmative action and diversity initiatives often employ a point total. You'll get so many points for this, so many points for that, and so on. Well, if you're part of the racial or ethnic minority whose past instances of discrimination they want to redress, then the points you get for that background can potentially trump your academic qualifications. Again, as long as the point totals aren't so large for race that they violate the Bakke rule, then its allowable and legal. Government operates the same way. Ever take a civil service test? Any test or questionnaire potentially leading to a job in government? Depending upon the job and agency, your racial background can get you that job even if you aren't strictly speaking qualified. If nothing else, it can get you past the first round of applicants.

To everyone, I'm not arguing whether the FAA is operating properly with this ATC training and hiring program. I'm just pointing out the law and how its applied.
 
D L X
Posts: 12482
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:54 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
D L X wrote:
As for wanting someone doing a job criticalto public safety whose “only” qualification (your words) is being a minority, we can start by correcting your erroneous premise. Under affirmative action, no one gets admitted without meeting base qualification.



Respectfully, that isn't accurate. Many colleges and universities offer remedial classes for those who do not meet the minimum application and admission requirements specifically to, in their words, redress earlier instances of discrimination. I know that my college did. It actually had a KKK club on campus for many decades - go to the campus library, pull the old yearbooks and see for yourself. Now, when I got there what did I see? Yes, a number of minority admissions who did not meet the minimum application and admission requirements taking remedial classes and this was a very well-thought of small liberal arts college with very high (back then) application requirements.


Respectfully, I doubt that you interviewed those minority students to determine what their qualifications were. On top of that, you're trying to measure "merit" based on what they were coming in, not what they could be once they received the education your college could provide. Did they graduate? Then they were qualified to enter the school.

As for Bakke, I think your understanding of that case is entirely incorrect.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 7937
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:58 am

UALifer wrote:
As of 2016, CTI graduates and veterans no longer have to take the Bio-Q. OTS hires do. The only requirement now is that the FAA pulls roughly half of new hires from the CTI/veteran pool and half the hires from the OTS pool.


That's an improvement, but it is bizarre to me that fully half of the successful applicants (i.e. eligible to move on through the next phase) are still are screened through a Bio-Q that minimizes relevant experience/interest/talent in favor of the long-term unemployed who played sports and were bad at science (or whatever screening questions are now used to obtain the desired diversity in half of the applicant pool).

It appears that the process is targeting the same people that we used to hire as cooks at the restaurants in which I was a partner, except that many of my best cooks also had criminal records. My amazing staff could and did train and motivate these workers -- many had been there themselves -- and I was very proud to watch these workers achieve something challenging and be proud of their achievements. It was great. But we also had to adapt and be ready to cover when there were relapses and washouts on the job, which isn't the end of the world in the restaurant business (except on Friday and Saturday nights). But it's a much-bigger lift to develop a skill set that would let someone sit at a controller position, and relapses in that group have different consequences.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:19 am

D L X wrote:
Did they graduate? Then they were qualified to enter the school.


Well, maybe. Depends upon what that Yale degree is supposed to represent.
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:32 am

It is hitting aviation in many sectors. There are many orgs pushing for more black pilots, and several blogs and interviews where the push is on to integrate first class. Two recent interviewees noted that First Class is too white. I suspect aviation will be the next industry focus for diversification pushes.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
D L X
Posts: 12482
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:44 am

wjcandee wrote:
D L X wrote:
Did they graduate? Then they were qualified to enter the school.


Well, maybe. Depends upon what that Yale degree is supposed to represent.

It’s never been about how you did in high school.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1429
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:24 am

Here’s an honest question for all those who think that diversity as the the first priority is a noble idea; why wasn’t this program been covered as such on anybody but Fox?

I mean if it is such a good idea where was CNN, MSNBC, NPR reporting on its virtues?

You think they wanted to report that the Obama administration was Experimenting at the risk of safety at the FAA?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:31 am

I don’t buy the safety risk. You still gotta pass the academy and certify your facility. They certainly aren’t a pushing people through training. Half the people fail in the academy alone.
 
ual763
Posts: 955
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:57 am

32andBelow wrote:
I don’t buy the safety risk. You still gotta pass the academy and certify your facility. They certainly aren’t a pushing people through training. Half the people fail in the academy alone.


And that’s where the problem lies. Maybe we should be sending the people to the academy that will pass instead of taking our chances on someone OTS.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
D L X
Posts: 12482
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:19 am

ual763 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I don’t buy the safety risk. You still gotta pass the academy and certify your facility. They certainly aren’t a pushing people through training. Half the people fail in the academy alone.


And that’s where the problem lies. Maybe we should be sending the people to the academy that will pass instead of taking our chances on someone OTS.

No, the problem is with your belief that the half that fail are the diverse enrollees.
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:57 pm

D L X wrote:
ual763 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I don’t buy the safety risk. You still gotta pass the academy and certify your facility. They certainly aren’t a pushing people through training. Half the people fail in the academy alone.


And that’s where the problem lies. Maybe we should be sending the people to the academy that will pass instead of taking our chances on someone OTS.

No, the problem is with your belief that the half that fail are the diverse enrollees.


Whatever, look at the academy failure rates. Guess who the majority are? It’s the OTS people. As I’ve said before in this thread, once they get to their facility, washout rates are similar between OTS and CTI/Prior-Experience. However, at the academy, the majority of washouts are OTS. It’s useless arguing with you, because you’re trying to push an agenda. Facts apparently don’t matter to you. The lawsuit has these stats. Do some research on the OTS failure rates at the academy and then come back and post a rational response.

Oh, and btw, it’s more than “half the fail”. They’re the majority of the fail at the academy.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 797
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:40 pm

Respectfully, I doubt that you interviewed those minority students to determine what their qualifications were. On top of that, you're trying to measure "merit" based on what they were coming in, not what they could be once they received the education your college could provide. Did they graduate? Then they were qualified to enter the school.


I went to school with them. Some were fraternity brothers. I went to one's wedding. Yeah, we talked.

As for Bakke, I think your understanding of that case is entirely incorrect.


Nope. its pretty much spot on. I currently work as an educator and part of my job is helping to college qualify students. That includes working with the Guidance Department on college applications and the admissions process. I also teach civil rights, diversity, affirmative action and Bakke in my US History classes.

I think you failed to read the last sentence of my earlier post where I stated that I wasn't taking sides in this debate. I was merely stating what the law was. Instead, you seem to have interpreted what I wrote as taking a side. I'm really not sure how you could have made that mistake, but you appear to have. Whatever...
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:59 pm

ual763 wrote:
D L X wrote:
ual763 wrote:

And that’s where the problem lies. Maybe we should be sending the people to the academy that will pass instead of taking our chances on someone OTS.

No, the problem is with your belief that the half that fail are the diverse enrollees.


Whatever, look at the academy failure rates. Guess who the majority are? It’s the OTS people. As I’ve said before in this thread, once they get to their facility, washout rates are similar between OTS and CTI/Prior-Experience. However, at the academy, the majority of washouts are OTS. It’s useless arguing with you, because you’re trying to push an agenda. Facts apparently don’t matter to you. The lawsuit has these stats. Do some research on the OTS failure rates at the academy and then come back and post a rational response.

Oh, and btw, it’s more than “half the fail”. They’re the majority of the fail at the academy.

Do you have the current stats? My class passed 75%. I think the most current en route pass rate is 58%.
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 pm

32andBelow wrote:
ual763 wrote:
D L X wrote:
No, the problem is with your belief that the half that fail are the diverse enrollees.


Whatever, look at the academy failure rates. Guess who the majority are? It’s the OTS people. As I’ve said before in this thread, once they get to their facility, washout rates are similar between OTS and CTI/Prior-Experience. However, at the academy, the majority of washouts are OTS. It’s useless arguing with you, because you’re trying to push an agenda. Facts apparently don’t matter to you. The lawsuit has these stats. Do some research on the OTS failure rates at the academy and then come back and post a rational response.

Oh, and btw, it’s more than “half the fail”. They’re the majority of the fail at the academy.

Do you have the current stats? My class passed 75%. I think the most current en route pass rate is 58%.


I can dig for them. But am at work tonight. Will post later.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
stratclub
Posts: 1342
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:31 am

D L X wrote:
stratclub wrote:
D L X wrote:
Sounds like you are a PRIME candidate to attend a diversity and inclusion class.

At the very least you’d learn the difference between D&I and affirmative action.

It never ceases to amaze me just how resistant some white men are to learning about things that aren’t white men.

I have worked with folks from many parts of the world and in many locations around the world an do enjoy learning about understanding and respecting the customs of other societies. What's really so whacked about the whole D&I and the earlier attempts at D&I called Affirmative Action are that people are given a pass on being qualified for a job because they are part of some government defined minority.

Do you really want someone doing a job that is critical to public safety that their only qualification for the job is that they are a member of a marginalized minority? Sometimes that's exactly how D&I works.

You keep saying D&I is the same thing as Affirnative action. I’m really beginning to believe you actually think they are the same thing.

As for wanting someone doing a job criticalto public safety whose “only” qualification (your words) is being a minority, we can start by correcting your erroneous premise. Under affirmative action, no one gets admitted without meeting base qualification. You deny that, but you know it’s true. In fact, almost everyone admitted is well above the minimum qualification, including the minorities. But none of the APPLICANTS is qualified to be an ATC before they are trained. Suggesting otherwise is silly.

Correct. Affirmative Action and D&I are not the same thing, however the intent of the problems they are designed to address is very similar. My direct experience is not with ATC, it is aircraft manufacturing. From what the OP and others have posted, the selection process for ATC did favor folks that are completely unqualified over candidates that do have education and other qualifications.

We had an airworthiness inspector that could not read or understand English including the technical data used for performing the job and would have shop personnel write his non conformance engineering requests and other paperwork for him. The company did learn of this and send him to school to learn English and although he was still completely unqualified for the job for very poor communication skills and having no technical knowledge about what he was inspecting, he was untouchable because it would have been considered by the company as discrimination. He did learn where to apply his airworthiness stamp in the paperwork however his only criteria for accepting a job was if he liked the person selling the job.

The intend of D&I is a great thing. It's a shame it wasn't available when my ancestors immigrated from Germany and Ireland. My complaint isn't with the concept of fairness, but with the implementation of the concept.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1429
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:22 am

Folks, it gets worse.

Tucker Carlson had a follow up show tonight where the following was disclosed:

The firm that designed BiQ, upon finding out what it would be used for informed the FAA that it would not find highly qualified candidates. Thee FAA used it anyway.

The 2600 students who were told they couldn’t apply after having attended school was a result of a meeting between the FAA and African American aviation association.

The same association were provided answers to the qualification test.

Corruption like this does nobody any good.
 
ual763
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:49 am

From flying to the NOTAM office
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:24 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Folks, it gets worse.

Tucker Carlson had a follow up show tonight where the following was disclosed:

The firm that designed BiQ, upon finding out what it would be used for informed the FAA that it would not find highly qualified candidates. Thee FAA used it anyway.

The 2600 students who were told they couldn’t apply after having attended school was a result of a meeting between the FAA and African American aviation association.

The same association were provided answers to the qualification test.

Corruption like this does nobody any good.


This all started in the FAA way before Obama with the Black Controller Coalition.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:31 pm

Jessie Jackson was involved too. This was a shake down, a complete disregard for standards and competence and now no one will talk about it. I am also guessing illegal bribes and kickbacks are involved. Corruption and an unthinkable disregard for public safety.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:10 pm

First let me give you a little biographical background I spent a little under 9 yrs in the Air Force as an Air Traffic Controller and 26yrs in the FAA in Flight Service. When I was hired by the FAA they looked for people with aviation skills and we also had 5 points veterans pfreferance. The entrance test at that time consited on many parts that basically tested your reasoning skills. There was also a dictated part where a person stood up and started rattling off phrases like "Mark B in the block that is one more than the number of weeks in a year etc. Questions like these were given out at a moderate speed and your ability to listen and to correctly answer all of this dictated part was weighted very heavily in your score. There were also books that self tutored you on how to pass the other parts of the test. I was even tutored by another controller. Nothing wrong with any of this. I passed the test on the second try and was hired.

After I was hired the FAA was going to change the test to better reflect skills in ATC and aviation and I along with several others were brought in an auditorium to take the new test and validate it for the agency. This was great as the previous test although weighted towards valuable listening skills had no questions specifically adaptated towards controller skills. I'm sure the FAA has did this many times since then.

While working for the FAA a group of black controllers got together and formed the Black Controller Coalition. They took it upon their mission to encourage mionority hiring. They conducted high school job fairs and went into local black colleges to encourage students to look at ATC as a career. They even helped tutor students and gave them the skills to pass the test. Fair enough. Over the course of many years what happened was these good efforts towards diversity were polluted by a group of controllers who wanted more and even rigged the system to achieve their goals and that is where Tucker's report was focussed but blaming Obama for this is just wrong as this started before Obama.

Diversity is actually good and during my carreer I worked with a very diverse bunch of fine people. In particular during my Air Force career I worked with a black controller who was always helping me and bailed me out of some tough situations. I would trust this person with my life and those of others anytime.

Now what the FAA did in rigging the system in changing the rules mid game and not hiring students at Colleges like UND and others after they had taken courses that the FAA had previously set up and the students spent thousands of dollars on and were promised jobs upon completion and passing the entrance exam was just wrong and this is the basis for some of the lawsuits.

In summation: Diversity is good and having a diverse workforce makes that workforce stronger but in a career field like ATC having background experience should also be fairly weighted in the hiring process.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:18 pm

Those are some good points. In fact many of those removed from the list of qualified and aviation educated applicants where themselves minorities. This is more about corruption than race, but it is only tolerated because of the race angle.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:20 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
Jessie Jackson was involved too. This was a shake down, a complete disregard for standards and competence and now no one will talk about it. I am also guessing illegal bribes and kickbacks are involved. Corruption and an unthinkable disregard for public safety.


This is what certain militant members of the Black Controller Coalition did.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:23 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
Those are some good points. In fact many of those removed from the list of qualified and aviation educated applicants where themselves minorities. This is more about corruption than race, but it is only tolerated because of the race angle.


I totally agree with you. I saw it while I was at the FAA. What started out as something good was aloowed to get corrupted along the way.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1429
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:26 pm

freakyrat wrote:
First let me give you a little biographical background I spent a little under 9 yrs in the Air Force as an Air Traffic Controller and 26yrs in the FAA in Flight Service. When I was hired by the FAA they looked for people with aviation skills and we also had 5 points veterans pfreferance. The entrance test at that time consited on many parts that basically tested your reasoning skills. There was also a dictated part where a person stood up and started rattling off phrases like "Mark B in the block that is one more than the number of weeks in a year etc. Questions like these were given out at a moderate speed and your ability to listen and to correctly answer all of this dictated part was weighted very heavily in your score. There were also books that self tutored you on how to pass the other parts of the test. I was even tutored by another controller. Nothing wrong with any of this. I passed the test on the second try and was hired.

After I was hired the FAA was going to change the test to better reflect skills in ATC and aviation and I along with several others were brought in an auditorium to take the new test and validate it for the agency. This was great as the previous test although weighted towards valuable listening skills had no questions specifically adaptated towards controller skills. I'm sure the FAA has did this many times since then.

While working for the FAA a group of black controllers got together and formed the Black Controller Coalition. They took it upon their mission to encourage mionority hiring. They conducted high school job fairs and went into local black colleges to encourage students to look at ATC as a career. They even helped tutor students and gave them the skills to pass the test. Fair enough. Over the course of many years what happened was these good efforts towards diversity were polluted by a group of controllers who wanted more and even rigged the system to achieve their goals and that is where Tucker's report was focussed but blaming Obama for this is just wrong as this started before Obama.

Diversity is actually good and during my carreer I worked with a very diverse bunch of fine people. In particular during my Air Force career I worked with a black controller who was always helping me and bailed me out of some tough situations. I would trust this person with my life and those of others anytime.

Now what the FAA did in rigging the system in changing the rules mid game and not hiring students at Colleges like UND and others after they had taken courses that the FAA had previously set up and the students spent thousands of dollars on and were promised jobs upon completion and passing the entrance exam was just wrong and this is the basis for some of the lawsuits.

In summation: Diversity is good and having a diverse workforce makes that workforce stronger but in a career field like ATC having background experience should also be fairly weighted in the hiring process.



Great info. Really appreciate seeing how this developed.


And while I appreciate that a small group of controllers worked on this for quite some time it was only implemented under Obama. Just another of many corrupt practices carried out by the first president raised by communists.

And of course the main stream media took an 8 year vacation.
 
ual763
Posts: 955
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Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:34 pm

32andBelow wrote:
ual763 wrote:
D L X wrote:
No, the problem is with your belief that the half that fail are the diverse enrollees.


Whatever, look at the academy failure rates. Guess who the majority are? It’s the OTS people. As I’ve said before in this thread, once they get to their facility, washout rates are similar between OTS and CTI/Prior-Experience. However, at the academy, the majority of washouts are OTS. It’s useless arguing with you, because you’re trying to push an agenda. Facts apparently don’t matter to you. The lawsuit has these stats. Do some research on the OTS failure rates at the academy and then come back and post a rational response.

Oh, and btw, it’s more than “half the fail”. They’re the majority of the fail at the academy.

Do you have the current stats? My class passed 75%. I think the most current en route pass rate is 58%.


Sorry it’s taken a while, but this is what I was referring to. Anyways, this chart is from 2012 from the FAA’s semi-annual training report. It mentions 2006, but that is the sample date of when the sample employees were hired. Remember it takes many years of training as you are aware. To provide a little bit more context of this chart, I’ll quote a prominent CTI professor’s commentary on it.

“More information for the nay-sayers out there... This chart is from the FAA's Semi-Annual Training Report (which they give to Congress). This chart is looking at Controllers hired in 2006, but the report is from 2012, so this is SIX years after hiring.

Takeaways, after SIX years:
48% of OTS hires had CPC'd.
82% of CTI and 78% of VRA had CPC'd.
18% of OTS were still training, vs. 2% and 4% for CTI/VRA.
34% of OTS had washed out.
16% of CTI and 18% of VRA has washed out.

So, OTS hires made it CPC at HALF the rate of CTI/VRA. They also have DOUBLE the chance of washing out.

** I would LOVE to give you more current data. But, curiously (lol) in more recent reports the FAA stopped proving as much detail and started mixing the groups. CTI isn't listed, but now lumped in with "Aviation Education" which could be pilots, veterans or CTI. But, looking at the data, is that really a surprise?”

Image
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
D L X
Posts: 12482
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:49 pm

Question: OTS = off the street, right? Does that equal “minority?”
 
ual763
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Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:55 pm

D L X wrote:
Question: OTS = off the street, right? Does that equal “minority?”


No it does not equal minority. But the problem is that the FAA has openly admitted that they are giving preference to “OTS” in an effort to diversify (aka hire more minorities) the workforce. So yes, I guess in the FAAs mind it does equal minority as their goal is to hire more (regardless of ethics). I honestly seriously don’t know how you, or anyone else for that matter, can eithically support this. It is textbook reverse discrimination.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Chasensfo
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:18 pm

I was able to check the majority of boxes for aviation experience(Pilot, Ramp Controller, Airline jobs, aviation studies, ect) on the BQ exam...and I failed it 4 times in a row before getting in this year on my 5th try. I then took the AT-SAT, passed, and was told I'd be in the hiring pool for 3 years. The 3 year extension of the pool was great news as they hired record low numbers of controllers(for modern times) this year...but then they dumped the hiring pool 2 months after telling us we had 3 years.

This whole process, mind you the AT-SAT was the hardest, most draining test I've ever taken, and the BQ is what I fear having to pass the most! I get 2-3 more applications most likely before I age out(must be invited to OKC before you turn 32), and that stupid questionaire that has almost nothing to do with the job is what I'm most worried about.

In the mind of the FAA, you are a BQ result, then you are a test score, then you IF they pull your test score, they may have a look at your resume or if you can even do the job. Every year, a ton of people make it far in the process only to find out they don't meet the minimum requirements while qualified people don't even get past the BQ or get their score pulled from the hiring pool. Efficiency.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:53 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
I was able to check the majority of boxes for aviation experience(Pilot, Ramp Controller, Airline jobs, aviation studies, ect) on the BQ exam...and I failed it 4 times in a row before getting in this year on my 5th try. I then took the AT-SAT, passed, and was told I'd be in the hiring pool for 3 years. The 3 year extension of the pool was great news as they hired record low numbers of controllers(for modern times) this year...but then they dumped the hiring pool 2 months after telling us we had 3 years.

This whole process, mind you the AT-SAT was the hardest, most draining test I've ever taken, and the BQ is what I fear having to pass the most! I get 2-3 more applications most likely before I age out(must be invited to OKC before you turn 32), and that stupid questionaire that has almost nothing to do with the job is what I'm most worried about.

In the mind of the FAA, you are a BQ result, then you are a test score, then you IF they pull your test score, they may have a look at your resume or if you can even do the job. Every year, a ton of people make it far in the process only to find out they don't meet the minimum requirements while qualified people don't even get past the BQ or get their score pulled from the hiring pool. Efficiency.


When I worked for the FAA we all had this description of FAA headquarters outside of L'Enfant Plaza in DC and why they needed two buildings for headquarters. "One building was needed to catch all the hot air that came out of the other building" The hiring process for controllers now is totally screwed up and corrupted. Qualified applicants are left up in the air while the FAA does what it pleases with no checks and balances along the way.
Last edited by freakyrat on Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:08 pm

The FAA would also like fewer washouts out of the Academy and during the training program at the controllers facility. Back almost 40yrs ago the FAA had 3 options. Centers, Towers and Flight Service. Flight Service caught some of the washouts from training (after they had passed the Academy) from the other two options. When Flight Service was contracted there were no options for some of these trainees so they were put out on the street. I had a great career in the Air Force and the FAA and I got some lucky breaks along the way and made some for myself. My thoughts are that Diversity in the Workforce is great if it is applied in a fair and equal manner.
 
D L X
Posts: 12482
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:57 pm

ual763 wrote:
D L X wrote:
Question: OTS = off the street, right? Does that equal “minority?”


No it does not equal minority. But the problem is that the FAA has openly admitted that they are giving preference to “OTS” in an effort to diversify (aka hire more minorities) the workforce. So yes, I guess in the FAAs mind it does equal minority as their goal is to hire more (regardless of ethics). I honestly seriously don’t know how you, or anyone else for that matter, can eithically support this. It is textbook reverse discrimination.



Well, this is a post that will make your head spin. OTS both does and doesn't equal "minority?"

Does anyone have some stats on the racial makeup of the OTS admissions?

(Not to mention that it does not appear to be the case that all of the washouts are OTS at all.)
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2724
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
Faro wrote:
Prost wrote:
And Tucker Carlson and Fox News are NEVER biased.



Amen...they are, at best, mis-informed...


Faro

Have you ever actually watched?


Yes, if they told me the sky was blue, I'd be asking my insurance company if it covered unicorns falling from the sky. They went to court to be able to FORCE their anchors to tell false information to the public. If you do that you lose any right IMO to have anything believed.
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:18 pm

D L X wrote:
ual763 wrote:
D L X wrote:
Question: OTS = off the street, right? Does that equal “minority?”


No it does not equal minority. But the problem is that the FAA has openly admitted that they are giving preference to “OTS” in an effort to diversify (aka hire more minorities) the workforce. So yes, I guess in the FAAs mind it does equal minority as their goal is to hire more (regardless of ethics). I honestly seriously don’t know how you, or anyone else for that matter, can eithically support this. It is textbook reverse discrimination.



Well, this is a post that will make your head spin. OTS both does and doesn't equal "minority?"

Does anyone have some stats on the racial makeup of the OTS admissions?

(Not to mention that it does not appear to be the case that all of the washouts are OTS at all.)


You make absolutely zero sense. Frankly who gives a sh*t what the racial makeup is of the OTS group. I realize you think that minorities should just be handed everything on a silver platter, but race should never be a factor in determining employment. The fact of the matter is, as referenced by the chart I posted above, and also by the myriad number of testaments from academy graduates, that OTS fail at a much higher rate than CTI/Prior-Experience candidates. And nobody said “ALL” of the washouts are OTS, simply a large majority. It just so happened that the FAA themselves have said their goal in giving preference to OTS candidates is to increase diversity in the terms of increasing the number of rank and file minorities. This is fact. And, no matter what you may think, that in and of itself IS reverse discrimination. It doesn’t matter what the racial makeup of the OTS group is. It is the attempt to discriminate against qualified candidates (who are not diverse enough in the terms of the FAA), for unqualified (supposedly diverse) applicants that is the problem. Why can’t you see that?

Here’s an idea, if they really want to increase diversity in the workforce, how about setting up a scholarship fund for minorities to go to college to pursue a career in ATC? The cost of 1 washout at the academy would completely pay for 10 students to go through a 2-year CTI program. Just give that a thought, and then tell me why it is a better idea to just hand out jobs on a silver platter to those with absolutely no experience or background whatsoever instead of those who have invested thousands of dollars and years of their lives in pursuit of said job?
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:34 am

ual763 wrote:
Here’s an idea, if they really want to increase diversity in the workforce, how about setting up a scholarship fund for minorities to go to college to pursue a career in ATC? The cost of 1 washout at the academy would completely pay for 10 students to go through a 2-year CTI program. Just give that a thought, and then tell me why it is a better idea to just hand out jobs on a silver platter to those with absolutely no experience or background whatsoever instead of those who have invested thousands of dollars and years of their lives in pursuit of said job?


I belong to a pilot's group that we do just that with our education fund. This year we gave out a full scholarship for a Private Ticket and we also have given out a few scholarships for a full 737 Type Rating. We have also funded numerous other scholarships and most of our scholarship winners are working for airlines today. So Yes the FAA could set up an education fund for the same purpose as they waste a lot of training funds on washouts.
 
ryanov
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:39 am

stratclub wrote:
What they now call "Diversity and inclusion" is just a more politicaly warped version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action and is big business for companies that offer educational courses that employers can ram down employees throat to ensure companies meet mandated "diversity" training requirements.

This sounds like something a white, probably male, who has never been discriminated against when seeking employment might say.

ual763 wrote:
You make absolutely zero sense. Frankly who gives a sh*t what the racial makeup is of the OTS group. I realize you think that minorities should just be handed everything on a silver platter, but race should never be a factor in determining employment.

What folks like you don't seem to realize is that race is currently a factor in determining employment for most non-white people. You can make laws saying it's illegal, and then still have applicants who submit resumes all over, get no bites, and then change their name to be something "whiter sounding" and suddenly start getting interviews. People of color are routinely told they're "not the right fit" for a job -- something that the person saying it may honestly believe and still have made an unconscious decision based on the person's race.
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:22 am

my daughter graduated in 2007 from Embry Riddle. She got hired after graduating as ATC for Federal Adm.

This is what she told me, anyone with a military career has a big advantage because of the points added
People off the street the gov. wanted them to have the same advantage as those who trained to become ATC
at schools such as Embry Riddle.

anybody can take the test, but if you haven't been trained to pass the test, the people off the street are still at a disadvantage.
they told my daughter, that because she went to school that the test would be harder for her to pass. That really messed with her head.


anyway, when she took the test, she was sure she failed. Turns out, she scored really well and works in Hilliard, Fl

She said she had no problem training, which was done in Oklahoma, however when she arrived in Hilliard, Fl

She told me, people who are in the military were given a harder time than others. especially if they were guys, girls in the military were not messed with. .
If you get a trainer that rides your butt, it makes it even harder to pass. i have no doubt in my mind, if people are not passing, then they need
to look at the trainers as well as revisit the test that scores their ability.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1525
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:13 pm

It's amazing that being unemployed, bad at science and knowing nothing about ATC gives you extra points for an ATC job. It's almost like they just turned the whole process upside down to get the results they want.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5867
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: FAA ATC Diversity Efforts Challenged

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:22 pm

ual763 wrote:
D L X wrote:
Question: OTS = off the street, right? Does that equal “minority?”


No it does not equal minority. But the problem is that the FAA has openly admitted that they are giving preference to “OTS” in an effort to diversify (aka hire more minorities) the workforce. So yes, I guess in the FAAs mind it does equal minority as their goal is to hire more (regardless of ethics). I honestly seriously don’t know how you, or anyone else for that matter, can eithically support this. It is textbook reverse discrimination.


That's not the problem. The problem is your failure to recognize that the Supreme Court, in cases spanning over decades, has allowed the use of minority preferences in hiring. It's not 1950.

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