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putthoff
Topic Author
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:05 am

PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:09 pm

I am here in the line of planes waiting to take off on 9l in philly—about 15 deep. Sunny great weather. Why not use both parallels for takeoff?
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1855
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:14 pm

putthoff wrote:
I am here in the line of planes waiting to take off on 9l in philly—about 15 deep. Sunny great weather. Why not use both parallels for takeoff?


Because planes have to land as well......
 
flyboy7974
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:35 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:29 pm

And if they used 9R for takeoffs it would restrict use of the intersecting runway
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1797
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:44 pm

Welcome to PHL. When I've listed to ATC there, I'm noticing an uptick in the usage of 17/35 and even 8/26.

I guess the question I would have to ask is that with PHL being a large AA hub, there will be times where there is slack in the arrival flow and a surge in the departure flow. If there is a 2 or 3 minute gap in arrivals, why not use 9R while 9L is being used for depatures.
 
SpinOn2
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:08 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:53 pm

NY Center also prob can't even handle dual runways take-offs from PHL with all the traffic they also have from EWR, JFK, LGA, HPN, Teterboro, etc. That whole area of airspace is so ridiculously congested.
 
GoSteelers
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:16 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Not sure specifically about the distance in PHL but if two parallel runways aren’t far enough apart, they are considered the same runway for ATC purposes. Looking at a quick glimpse of the chart, I would say simultaneous departures of the 9’S are not allowed.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11800
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:03 pm

putthoff wrote:
I am here in the line of planes waiting to take off on 9l in philly—about 15 deep. Sunny great weather. Why not use both parallels for takeoff?


Only 15? What a slow day.
 
N353SK
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:07 pm

GoSteelers wrote:
Not sure specifically about the distance in PHL but if two parallel runways aren’t far enough apart, they are considered the same runway for ATC purposes. Looking at a quick glimpse of the chart, I would say simultaneous departures of the 9’S are not allowed.


Maybe it’s different for individual facilities, but IAH regularly runs simultaneous departures off of 15L and 15R when the weather is visual and those runways are closer than the 9s in Philly. Of course, IAH has three other runways for landings.
 
Biged
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:25 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:55 pm

SFO uses 28’s for simultaneous departures
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1797
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:51 pm

Heck, they basically have drag races on the "1s" for departures

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKwEvUPZe-Y

There cant be more than about 800 feet of separation between 1L and 1R. At PHL, you have two entire taxiways separating the two 9/27 runways.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:54 pm

There's something I've always wondered about. Was going to do a thread, but I'll drop it in here.

You know how other airports have it set up when there are 2 runways on the same side of the terminal, the inner runway is used for takeoffs, the outer one for landings.

LAX, ATL, CLT, DFW, SEA, DTW, EWR, MIA, JFK, MCO


PHL uses this pattern when using the 9s...but when 27s are used, it flips. Why is this?


I remember when I was there in 1992, that planes heading from the gate area heading out to 27L would get jammed up crossing 27R. Aircraft that had just landed on 27R would have to wait for the queue to clear in order to get to their gates on D & E.

The only other airport that I know of that does it opposite is MCO (west side) if using the 36s
Last edited by 727LOVER on Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyguy84
Posts: 770
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:58 pm

As others have stated, N90 probably can’t handle the dual departure traffic. Same problem at EWR.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:03 pm

What are both departures going to do when they hit MXE at the same time?
 
usairways85
Posts: 4360
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:07 pm

PHL does not have a great taxi set up for aircraft waiting to depart, I imagine trying to depart on both runways creates a little bit of a tetris game.

Also winds today are blowing 10-15 kts with gusts between 20-25 so not exactly a calm day.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3325
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:12 pm

727LOVER wrote:
There's something I've always wondered about. Was going to do a thread, but I'll drop it in here.

You know how other airports have it set up when there are 2 runways on the same side of the terminal, the inner runway is used for takeoffs, the outer one for landings.

LAX, ATL, CLT, DFW, SEA, DTW, EWR, MIA, JFK, MCO


PHL uses this pattern when using the 9s...but when 27s are used, it flips. Why is this?



Good question. Here is the answer.

It has to do with what you can and can't do with closely spaced parallel runways, especially in bad weather.

The only way PHL can depart on 1 runway and arrive on the other parallel runway simultaneously is if the landing is happening on the nearer runway and the departure from the further runway.

Runway thresholds need to be staggered with parallel runways less than 2500 ft apart to enable this. The rule states that the landing must happen on the closest threshold and the departure from the furthest one. For every 100ft below 2500 ft, runway thresholds need to be staggered by 500 ft. If you go on Google Earth and measure the stagger at PHL, you'll notice it perfectly respects this rule.

Same reason why DXB staggered it's runways several years ago. They used to be side by side runways in the early 2000s.
 
timz
Posts: 6589
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:52 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Runway thresholds need to be staggered with parallel runways less than 2500 ft apart to enable this. The rule states that the landing must happen on the closest threshold and the departure from the furthest one. For every 100ft below 2500 ft, runway thresholds need to be staggered by 500 ft.

Guess you must be talking about some sort of instrument operations. No such rule for visual approaches, of course.
 
jetsetter629
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:25 pm

Flew out of PHL today (my home airport) at 11 am, which you'd think would be a quiet time, and again took 45 mins to depart from 9L...for a 45 min flight to PIT none the less
 
usairways85
Posts: 4360
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: PHL dual runway takeoffs

Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:19 pm

jetsetter629 wrote:
Flew out of PHL today (my home airport) at 11 am, which you'd think would be a quiet time, and again took 45 mins to depart from 9L...for a 45 min flight to PIT none the less

AA's PHL hub is a banked hub so not sure when you mean by 11am expected to be a quiet time. Whenever AA schedules it's banks, the airport will be very busy.

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