asdf
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:40 pm

Mortyman wrote:
I. M guessing he wants to skip the windows to save weight, but how much difference is it between window and camera? Really don't see the point.


if a person in his position decides to start such a medial test baloon i suppose some can be shure that it makes sense for his particular situation.

you have to see all livetime costs of that animal

cheaper or equal expensive construction
weight reducement
much cheaper and easier mantainance
much easier conversion to freighter (maybe you could even switch back and forth inhouse within days?)
higher selling price
Last edited by asdf on Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AApilot2b
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:44 pm

Jayafe wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
I already avoid the 787...


Understandable, everybody should.

Aside that, I don't understand the surprise, windowless transport was not already introduced centuries ago in boats?

Image



Hey.... you are on to something here. The modern rendition of this is that not only do you take the windows out of the aircraft, but every seat has a peddle system linked to a system of generators to charge batteries below the floor which power new hybrid engines. :scratchchin: All that you need now is to give flight attendants a whip to motivate those folks who aren’t peddling hard enough. Who needs windows?
 
AApilot2b
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:51 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
I already avoid the 787 for its windows, I will stay away from windowless aircraft as well.

What about all those passengers that currently have no desire to look outside and close the window shades as soon as they can? Will they be forced to look at screens with projected images of the outside world? That would be funny.


:whistleblower: Im confused. In a discussion about windowless airplanes your argument against windowless airplanes is to avoid the airliner with the largest windows in the industry. That makes absolutely zero sense.
 
Chemist
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:59 pm

winstonlegthigh wrote:
This is an awful idea. I doubt it ever sees the light of day.


I see what you did there.
 
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49Paralell
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 pm

It pisses me off when passengers request a window seat just to put the shade down and use it as a head rest. Precious window being wasted...
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Andre3K
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:13 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
I already avoid the 787 for its windows, I will stay away from windowless aircraft as well.

What about all those passengers that currently have no desire to look outside and close the window shades as soon as they can? Will they be forced to look at screens with projected images of the outside world? That would be funny.



What if Airbus AND Boeing replaced all their windows with auto tent windows or artificial windows?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:24 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Vertigo anyone? Your head says the plane is moving, but your eyes say no. I agree. I wouldn;t get on a windowless plane.

So all your flights have to take off and land in daylight?

winstonlegthigh wrote:
This is an awful idea. I doubt it ever sees the light of day.

I see what you did there.
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PPVLC
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:34 pm

MCHS wrote:
I can see it now... It begins with just images of the outside, then someone figures out that they can advertise on them and make more money, so each scene has a pop up ad that you can remove if you pay a fee...

Please no. Please....



Exactly my thoughts. Or we will stare at a blank wall if we don't pay a fee...
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alan3
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
So all your flights have to take off and land in daylight?


Revelation wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Vertigo anyone? Your head says the plane is moving, but your eyes say no. I agree. I wouldn;t get on a windowless plane.



Can't speak for him, but for some reason there's a difference if there are no windows at all vs a window that is there even if blind is drawn.

PS: You can still see things at night time... in fact looking out a window during a night flight is one of my favorite flying experiences.... the stars, the moon, the city lights

Maybe if anyone has had an enjoyable experience travelling in the windowless cargo compartment of a semi truck, maybe they can give us first hand knowledge of the joys they've experienced.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:37 pm

Great idea. Now we can easily change our old freighters pack into pax airplanes. Seats on pallets. Whats not to like?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:39 pm

alan3 wrote:
Can't speak for him, but for some reason there's a difference if there are no windows at all vs a window that is there even if blind is drawn.

PS: You can still see things at night time... in fact looking out a window during a night flight is one of my favorite flying experiences.... the stars, the moon, the city lights

Maybe if anyone has had an enjoyable experience travelling in the windowless cargo compartment of a semi truck, maybe they can give us first hand knowledge of the joys they've experienced.

Agree on all of the above, but the point is that I've had plenty of takeoffs/landings where it was pitch black outside (night in cloudy weather) and I was where I could not see any effect of landing lights and I did not get any vertigo.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:44 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
I already avoid the 787 for its windows, I will stay away from windowless aircraft as well.

But doesn't the 787 have larger windows than most widebody aircraft? If it's a window that you want than I don't think the 787 is the type of aircraft to stay away from.


It absolutely is! I've been fortunate enough to avoid the 787 so far. What's the point of having a large window when you have zero control over it?! the 787's dimming windows allow the crew to override pax and dim the windows whenever they want, many airlines are abusing this feature and dimming all the windows on most flights. I'd take an ancient 767 over a brand new 787 any day.


I sure hope Boeing doesn't continue with the dimming windows on the 777X.
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:59 pm

I am just surprised that nobody floated this earlier. Removing windows means an opportunity to remove significant amount of fuselage reinforcement (read: weight) from the uneven stresses of having holes cut in them. For a medium/large widebody (787/A350) I'd estimate the cumulative weight savings from removing windows would be at least 10t OEW. Now that portable/integrated camera solutions are of 'sufficient' quality that tradeoff becomes more enticing by the month. EK has the clout to at least make A&B give serious attention to this topic for products down the line..
Last edited by JustSomeDood on Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Sula123
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:02 pm

I feel that if this goes ahead EK will just save itself the money for the ‘window IFE’ and take the opportunity to clad all of the cabin walls in gaudy faux wood and gold trim. Floor to ceiling.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:10 pm

Mortyman wrote:
I. M guessing he wants to skip the windows to save weight, but how much difference is it between window and camera? Really don't see the point.


It is the acrylic windows, plus replacement of windows due to crazing during aircraft service, plus structural reinforcements around each window cavity, plus aerodynamic smoothness (cleanliness) are few variables that come instantaneously into my mind; I presume he has some rough figures to base his argument around rather than coming to the public with such an unorthodox idea.

JustSomeDood wrote:
I am just surprised that nobody floated this earlier.


As he said, it is based on his observation of the optical viewing feature EK installed newly in their B777 F/C, any airline had such an offering before?
Last edited by Clipper101 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bluejuice
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:16 pm

nikeherc wrote:
Would cameras, screens and power sources really be lighter? There woul not be a need to maintain windows, but I can imagine a plane where some of the screens are on, some are blinking and some are dead. Attractive!


Newer LCD and OLED screens are very light and thin so I can see weight savings over the two panes of glass plus structural reinforcement. I see dead screen issue as a plus in favor of the airline. I have had several flights delayed or cancelled due to a window issue. A failed "window" screen would likely mean some extra frequent flier miles and a "better luck next time" from the airline.
Last edited by bluejuice on Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:25 pm

I'm not sure how I'd feel. I don't necessarily need the windows, but I enjoy looking out, especially on takeoff and final approach/landing.

As long as I had access to a live map w/elevation info, I'd be fine.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:27 pm

With thin flexible display panels recreating any space is possible.

VR headsets is the option to allow passengers personalize their experience.
 
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fraspotter
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:32 pm

I can see it now. Before a person next to the wall can turn on the window to look "outside" they have to sit through an ad. Just like Youtube. lol
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:44 pm

Just another reason to avoid Emirates. On the news this morning it said it would make flights faster, I assume there is some airflow interruption from the breaks in the fuselage , but the difference would be minimal.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:11 am

In other news: Emirates is looking into the new Thompson solution that allows to pack passengers in LD36 containers. "This innovation will save at least 70% of space and will increase the passenger capacity by 92-123%", Emirates CEO Tim Clark says. Ryanair's Michael O'Leary said his airline will introduce the new way of transportation by the end of 2018. "We just like to f*ck with our passengers for the fun of it", O'Leary said.
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ORDJOE
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:27 am

If this saved $10 from the price of a ticket vs a windowed cabin people would forget windows to save a few bucks I am sure. The unfortunate state of air travel
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:28 am

BREECH wrote:
In other news: Emirates is looking into the new Thompson solution that allows to pack passengers in LD36 containers. "This innovation will save at least 70% of space and will increase the passenger capacity by 92-123%", Emirates CEO Tim Clark says. Ryanair's Michael O'Leary said his airline will introduce the new way of transportation by the end of 2018. "We just like to f*ck with our passengers for the fun of it", O'Leary said.


Imagine capsules which can transfer passengers between gates like inline baggage transfer, Display inside to mimic terminal and allow buy duty free which shows up at your gate. DXB can double its capacity.
 
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Siren
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:34 am

JustSomeDood wrote:
For a medium/large widebody (787/A350) I'd estimate the cumulative weight savings from removing windows would be at least 10t OEW. Now that portable/integrated camera solutions are of 'sufficient' quality that tradeoff becomes more enticing by the month. EK has the clout to at least make A&B give serious attention to this topic for products down the line..


Are current freighter OEWs as much as 10t lower? I imagine not, as they have reinforced floors which probably offsets the weight savings somewhat... but is a proper factory build A330F or 767-300F without windows significantly lighter?

There's also a potential flight safety benefit to windowless cabins - nothing to crack or break or blow out in the incredibly low chance that it gets hit by debris.

All this being said, we're looking well into the 2030s/40s before a fresh design comes in and replaces the current aircraft with windows. At least 15-20 years, even if airlines and OEMs were to embrace the concept. The weight savings should be significant - and in 15-20 years, digital display technology should be sufficiently advanced to allow for dramatic weight savings. Still, I think this concept is more or less the same as a "windowless flight deck"... it's technologically feasible, but I think too many psychological barriers to entry to the marketplace....
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:45 am

nikeherc wrote:
Would cameras, screens and power sources really be lighter? There woul not be a need to maintain windows, but I can imagine a plane where some of the screens are on, some are blinking and some are dead. Attractive!


Don't forget about the screens with dead pixels, a smudged camera, an insect walking on the lens, cracked lens, or especially the ones with a Windows 10 error message on them!

Wow! Ain't that a view! Staring at a message box for 12 hours sounds great!
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YellowJ
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:59 am

MartijnNL wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
But doesn't the 787 have larger windows than most widebody aircraft? If it's a window that you want than I don't think the 787 is the type of aircraft to stay away from.

Yes, that's true. The 787 windows are about the same size as the windows on the MD-11 were. But those didn't come with an annoying dimming system.

To be honest I don't think I have a real problem with dimmable windows. It's only crew locking it on the darkest setting for hours on end that would drive me mad. That ridiculous behaviour needs to stop.


However you still can see out of it.

Way better than when the crew instructs you to close the shades completely for the benefit of the cabin. I don't get the complaint.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:16 am

L0VE2FLY wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
I already avoid the 787 for its windows, I will stay away from windowless aircraft as well.

But doesn't the 787 have larger windows than most widebody aircraft? If it's a window that you want than I don't think the 787 is the type of aircraft to stay away from.


It absolutely is! I've been fortunate enough to avoid the 787 so far. What's the point of having a large window when you have zero control over it?! the 787's dimming windows allow the crew to override pax and dim the windows whenever they want, many airlines are abusing this feature and dimming all the windows on most flights. I'd take an ancient 767 over a brand new 787 any day.



It’s amazing how people can make judgments on something that they’ve never even operated or tried.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:04 am

grbauc wrote:
It’s amazing how people can make judgments on something that they’ve never even operated or tried.

Maybe they base their decision to avoid the 787 on internet reviews and first hand reports of friends and family? There are trip reports available of passengers who were annoyed as hell for the crew locking the windows to the darkest setting for almost the entire flight.

Personally I would never want to be in that situation. It would take the fun out of the flying. A co-worker said it felt like sitting in an aquarium for many hours. That's why I am actively avoiding the 787 at all cost.
 
moa999
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:04 am

Agree the biggest weight saved are from a complete aircraft redesign. Without windows the fuselage construction could be changed substantially, particularly with the carbon fibre skins.

Given EK are already flying these 'faux' windows (admittedly in a centre row first class cabin)
I wouldn't be surprised if airlines do begin trials in some sections of aircraft, adding weight for the purpose of customer trials.

Think the biggest issue will be for the actual window seat passenger who will be very close to the screen - EKs current First cabin has space between the pax and window/screen
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:59 am

Andre3K wrote:
What if Airbus AND Boeing replaced all their windows with auto tent windows or artificial windows?

I guess than I would have to build my trips around the CS300 and E190. Or start looking into travelling by train or ship. Sailing from Europe to the United States takes a few days. That would be a real travel experience.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:17 am

Siren wrote:
it's technologically feasible

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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:26 am

nikeherc wrote:
Would cameras, screens and power sources really be lighter? There woul not be a need to maintain windows, but I can imagine a plane where some of the screens are on, some are blinking and some are dead. Attractive!


I think this is where the issues would be found. If you can make the tech light, reliable, long life, and super easy to maintain. Then maybe this could work. But you'd be wanting a failure rate of no more than one panel per aircraft per year. In my view anyway. I'm not sure the tech is there yet. Near future OLED stuff does have some promise for the weight and heat issues however.

As for worry about ads and the like? A touch of regulation should make sure that doesn't happen. Outside the US anyways. :p
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:45 am

AApilot2b wrote:
:whistleblower: Im confused. In a discussion about windowless airplanes your argument against windowless airplanes is to avoid the airliner with the largest windows in the industry. That makes absolutely zero sense.

That's not really my argument. I would stay away from windowless aircraft just as I stay away from the 787 now. The reason I avoid the 787 is the crew override option on the dimmable windows.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:52 am

MCHS wrote:
I can see it now... It begins with just images of the outside, then someone figures out that they can advertise on them and make more money, so each scene has a pop up ad that you can remove if you pay a fee...

Please no. Please....


The comment of the thread.

winstonlegthigh wrote:
This is an awful idea. I doubt it ever sees the light of day.


Pun intended? :mrgreen:

In reality, this story comes up every few months and nothing ever comes of it in the short or long term, so as you were.
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seahawk
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:25 am

Good idea, you could have windows only at the exit doors and one next to it on each side. Just do not replace it with fake windows, save the weight and money and make it a normal wall.
 
Arion640
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:31 am

I think people are reading too much into this.

1. Emirates are an airline, not a manufacturer. While they can make A/B listen to them they don't hold the key to the kingdom.

2. It's free publicity. Ryanair style.
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keesje
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:28 am

Well you could remove e.g. half the windows & discount seats without them, or give them more pitch

Image

Boeing already innovated it on the Dreamliner

Passenger don't mind for sure.

:stirthepot:
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P47Tbolt
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:04 am

alan3 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
The problem with the 787 windows is the crew locking them at the darkest setting while I want to look outside.

People who complain about blinding the entire cabin during daytime longhaul flights should use sleeping masks. Or turn their screens brighter if the want to watch a movie. They don't have more rights than people who wish to look outside.

On my recent KLM daytime Amsterdam - San Francisco flight most window blinds in economy class stayed open the entire flight. And luckily nobody complained about that. Many passengers enjoyed the views of frozen Canada. Most business class passengers however were glued to their screens for hours on end.


Actually I didn't know that the crew "locks" the 787 window shades at dark. I guess that would explain why I sometimes press mine like mad thinking it's gone faulty!


It depends on airline to airline. I took Air India 787-8s on both legs of EWR-LHR-BOM and the windows were darkened on both legs for most of the time. They changed the setting 15-20mins before touch down in both legs. Before that I took BOM-AMS on a KLM 787-9, had access to my window for the entire time.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:51 am

If there are no windows for a view, why not fit rear-facing seats as well? The provide far better support for the back, neck and head in the event of a crash.
 
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keesje
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:58 am

gunnerman wrote:
If there are no windows for a view, why not fit rear-facing seats as well? The provide far better support for the back, neck and head in the event of a crash.


The seatback has to become 16g for 3-4- 100kg passengers. It would make the seats 6x heaviers and make sure they are not in recline during a crash..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:01 pm

Personally I wouldn't have an issue with this, just given that the solution would be well-functioning. Technology today is already so advanced that any engineering challenges can be solved.

But all the people who couldn't dream about flying in a windowless plane, how would you feel about a plane which had see-through materials at least partially along the fuselage - and no actual windows? Would that be ok? And if that would be ok, then what if those see-through materials would turn out to be just screens without you knowing the truth (quality high enough)?

I find the whole idea of having an actual window on a plane somewhat old-fashioned. Time to move on.

I think this is just a classic Henry Ford -scenario. If he had asked the people, they would have wanted a faster horse.
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:07 pm

gunnerman wrote:
If there are no windows for a view, why not fit rear-facing seats as well? The provide far better support for the back, neck and head in the event of a crash.


Some airlines have those in business class. Absolutely horrible from my point of view - and not because of the view in the window. Just the feeling of sitting backwards in a plane doing 900.
 
LU9092
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:47 pm

The Washington DC metro opened with windowless trains. The thinking was that the train was underground so there's nothing to see anyway, so why bother. But passengers found it deeply unsettling and the idea was quickly scrapped.
 
FatCat
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:54 pm

LU9092 wrote:
The Washington DC metro opened with windowless trains. The thinking was that the train was underground so there's nothing to see anyway, so why bother. But passengers found it deeply unsettling and the idea was quickly scrapped.

Also because windows can be broken for emergency, right?
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Revelation
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:00 pm

LU9092 wrote:
The Washington DC metro opened with windowless trains. The thinking was that the train was underground so there's nothing to see anyway, so why bother. But passengers found it deeply unsettling and the idea was quickly scrapped.

Not sure it's an analogous situation.

Metro is a relatively short trip vs EK longhauls, EK is giving some "visual relief" via screens yet these would be vandalized in metro environments, most people stare at their electronic devices anyway unlike when the WAS metro opened.

While some a.net posters will book away from 787 due to dark windows, the average shmoe doesn't. Just talked to a friend who booked Norwegian and he had no idea that it would be a 787 with dark windows, all he cared about was the ticket price.

In short, I could this becoming a thing going forward, especially for long haul especially for airlines providing IFE anyway.
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migair54
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:00 pm

The middle seats in the new first class cabin already have virtual windows, and they are quite nice, obviously it's not the same but much better than having nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2aXSMhaGGs
 
thaiflyer
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:03 pm

And that's why i love the 787.
The shades can be blocked by the FA.
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alan3
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:52 pm

Putting aside comfort or aesthetics, aren't windows safer so that the wings and engines can be seen and reported on? During some sort of an emergency either on the ground or in the air doesn't the ability to see what's happening outside actually help, in some cases?
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:59 pm

alan3 wrote:
Putting aside comfort or aesthetics, aren't windows safer so that the wings and engines can be seen and reported on? During some sort of an emergency either on the ground or in the air doesn't the ability to see what's happening outside actually help, in some cases?


I would image some will have to be kept precisely for that. Like on the doors and near the engines.

One thing I haven't seen referenced in this thread is all those people in the middle of widebody flights. Those 3 or 4 middle seats have never had controllable windows and people have dealt with the lack of them for decades. Outside of those of us who want to look outside I think most people don't actually care about having a window or not.
 
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yowza
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:25 pm

This smacks of trying to stay in the news a la Michael O'Leary.

Jayafe wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
I already avoid the 787...


I don't understand the surprise, windowless transport was not already introduced centuries ago in boats?

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Latest crop of labourers heading to DXB to build the next skyscraper? :box:

YOWza

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