NZ321
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:40 pm

Agreed, Awful idea. Will surely hit the dust. If it doesn't I won' t be flying no more. End of story.
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NZ321
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:42 pm

I would add this idea is a cheap think tank innovation that hasn't been carefully thought through in terms of passenger rights. I think we have a right to see out the window and have real information about the conditions and what is happening, not what the airline wants us to see through some fake screen. It's below the belt IMHO.
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ACCS300
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:54 pm

Just flew an LH A350 MUC-YVR. Sat in the middle seat ,J cabin. With the large hi-rez screen and three exterior cameras, tail, belly and straight-down, I felt no need to see out a window, they were all fully closed anyway for the duration of the daytime flight. The forward belly-cam was my absolute fav, basically a cockpit view, I was able to watch the nose gear extend and retract and witness the nose gear leave the runway and make contact in YVR.

If all aircraft employed this technology, I doubt few would miss the windows.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:57 pm

keesje wrote:
Well you could remove e.g. half the windows & discount seats without them, or give them more pitch

Image

Boeing already innovated it on the Dreamliner

Passenger don't mind for sure.

:stirthepot:

Boeing already did it on row 10 on the 737-800. Transavia once gave me this seat at check in, telling me it was a window seat. Never again. Passengers do mind, absolutely.
 
BREECH
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
BREECH wrote:
In other news: Emirates is looking into the new Thompson solution that allows to pack passengers in LD36 containers. "This innovation will save at least 70% of space and will increase the passenger capacity by 92-123%", Emirates CEO Tim Clark says. Ryanair's Michael O'Leary said his airline will introduce the new way of transportation by the end of 2018. "We just like to f*ck with our passengers for the fun of it", O'Leary said.


Imagine capsules which can transfer passengers between gates like inline baggage transfer, Display inside to mimic terminal and allow buy duty free which shows up at your gate. DXB can double its capacity.

If it goes the way it's going, displays will be a very expensive options. :-)
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Homadreaming86
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:01 pm

What happens when those fake window monitors are stop working during a state of emergency? What will happen during a crash landing when no one can see which doors are safe to open? Fact of the matter is no amount of technology would change the ability of a flight crew to make those quick life and death decisions. Sensors fail, cameras fail and displays fail.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:24 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
The reason I avoid the 787 is the crew override option on the dimmable windows.

And the fact that the sun might shine in your face for ten hours, also on overnight flights. When flying for example from Vancouver to Amsterdam during summer on an evening departure the sun 'travels' with you the entire flight. All the time it stays at roughly the same location in the sky. And in your window, where it is clearly visible. As I have read in trip reports this can be really annoying.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:39 pm

migair54 wrote:
The middle seats in the new first class cabin already have virtual windows, and they are quite nice, obviously it's not the same but much better than having nothing.


Those are not the words that you want to hear from passengers paying First Class tickets...
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:41 pm

It may be delusional, but if you remove the windows, it can happen that suddenly passengers become aware that they are travelling 10km high and 900km/h in an aluminium can. Not a truth that everybody can handle.
 
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Faro
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:45 pm

HoboJoe wrote:
Its called CARGO




Also called a publicity stunt...a no-go from start...but then the UAE in general are hooked on this kind of tech gadgetry...


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DarthShatner
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:21 pm

This sounds more like a Ryanair press release. As for no windows - great until the system glitches for 10 hours and you're left staring at a wall. Or someone figures out how to put ads on it. Or every 30 minutes you're treated to a promo for the airline.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:33 pm

I am not sure I understand this world where people want to see everything through screens. Everything.

I enjoy screens obviously, as I am looking at one while I type this.

But I also see the magic in a nice sunrise at 40,000 feet. Or of a view of the Himalayas (or insert your favorite mountain range). Yes, you can do nice things with a screen, but the light is not natural, there is a limited gamut, the relief is gone, it is just flat.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:36 pm

winstonlegthigh wrote:
This is an awful idea. I doubt it ever sees the light of day.


It won’t see any light as there will be no windows.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:53 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Just flew an LH A350 MUC-YVR. Sat in the middle seat, J cabin. With the large hi-rez screen and three exterior cameras, tail, belly and straight-down, I felt no need to see out a window, they were all fully closed anyway for the duration of the daytime flight.

I feel the need to look out a window on every flight I take. This 'business class behaviour' makes me sad. What's the point of having windows when you close the shades all the time?

Sometimes I look at flightradar24.com and wish I was on that flight overflying Greenland and than I realise I might as well enjoy my day at home, because probably I wouldn't see a thing from that aircraft.

ACCS300 wrote:
If all aircraft employed this technology, I doubt few would miss the windows.

It seems a lot of passengers don't care indeed.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:09 pm

winstonlegthigh wrote:
This is an awful idea. I doubt it ever sees the light of day.


I hope it does, and that it drives Emirates straight into bankruptcy, together with whichever manufacturer agrees to deliver a windowless plane to them, and every single crew member who would ever serve on a flight like that.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:17 pm

Windows are often then ONE thing that makes me prefer flying rather than driving. I love seeing the glorious world from 32000ft - SEEING it, not watching it on a screen. Seriously, what's with the airlines industry's nonstop war on their own customers? Cramming more and more and more seats per square millimetre. Windowless planes. The permanent obsession with trying to replace seats with stand up harnesses in one way or another. I used to think that this was mainly an American problem (and Ryanair's) and that Middle-Eastern and Asian airlines still had some common decency, but this?
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:19 am

Carlos01 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
If there are no windows for a view, why not fit rear-facing seats as well? The provide far better support for the back, neck and head in the event of a crash.


Some airlines have those in business class. Absolutely horrible from my point of view - and not because of the view in the window. Just the feeling of sitting backwards in a plane doing 900.


Done this in J on UA 772 not too long ago. Not bad actually. And, regardless, even a so-so J is better than a great Y.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:23 am

DarthShatner wrote:
This sounds more like a Ryanair press release. As for no windows - great until the system glitches for 10 hours and you're left staring at a wall. Or someone figures out how to put ads on it. Or every 30 minutes you're treated to a promo for the airline.


I even have a better idea. How about making those “windows” touch screens and selling duty-free stuff online?
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:42 am

I only went through the first few replies, but the thing that screams out to me is...:

How can windows weigh more than the screens they are suggesting to replace them? Surely any weight saved by removing windows will be negated by the weight of screens in their place?!
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:13 am

EGTESkyGod wrote:
I only went through the first few replies, but the thing that screams out to me is...:

How can windows weigh more than the screens they are suggesting to replace them? Surely any weight saved by removing windows will be negated by the weight of screens in their place?!

It's a good question.

Seems we don't have the figures to do the sums, but I bet STC does.

Besides he is looking forward ~20 years from now, where I can imagine the tech would be pretty light.

The current windows aren't like bedroom windows.

Google brought up viewtopic.php?t=737815#p10636795 an a.net post from 14 years ago:

747Teach wrote:
Bruce, On the 747 aircraft, for example, the windows are made of acrylic plastic. The entire window unit is made up of 3 layers. The outer pane is stretched acrylic, .35 thick. The middle pane is modified acrylic, .22 thick. These two panes make up the transparent portion of the window structure, and are surrounded by a pressure seal. And the inner pane is a thin sheet of SE-3 acrylic, and acts as a dust cover. They all have various coatings for scratch resistance. The structural members of the window are designed to withstand 1.5 times the normal operating pressure. And on the 747, due to the shape of the nose, the forward 4 windows have an additional 12 retainer fittings to strengthen the window against bird strikes. This is from the 747 AMM, 56-21-00. To answer your question, yes they are breakable, but not easily. They could be broken out with a fire axe or sledge hammer, but they are extremely tough, and will put up a fight. Regards,

This is from https://skift.com/2018/05/02/how-strong ... e-windows/ ::

The vast majority of commericial airplane windows are made by only a few suppliers, Aboulafia said. They include GKN Aerospace, a UK company that makes windows for Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier and Embraer. GKN manufactured the windows involved in Wednesday’s mishap, a Southwest spokeswoman said.

On its website, the company notes most aircraft windows consist of two plexiglass panes with an air gap between them, as well as a “scratch pane” facing the passenger.

The outer pane, GKN said, “is the primary structural window” and carries cabin pressure during flight. The inner pane, the company said, is redundant — existing only to hold cabin pressure if the outer pane is broken. It called that an “an extremely rare event.”


https://www.quora.com/What-are-windows- ... g-are-they gives us a pretty picture:

Image
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JustSomeDood
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:36 am

EGTESkyGod wrote:
I only went through the first few replies, but the thing that screams out to me is...:

How can windows weigh more than the screens they are suggesting to replace them? Surely any weight saved by removing windows will be negated by the weight of screens in their place?!


An aircraft fuselage designed and made without windows in mind is going to be much lighter given it doesn't have to account for any stresses caused by the windows. There should also be marginally less drag given that surface undulations associated with window attachments would be eliminated. As anybody who's held a modern iPad understands, screen assemblies similar in size to existing aircraft windows can be made very, very light...
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:48 am

Wow! That escalated quickly - so I haven't read all the replies.

But when I first heard this all I thought was... "finally".

This was something that struck me in my first week of uni many many years ago. The window belt is a big, heavy, complex, maintenance-prone boondoggle which adds a ton of weight and expense. From a structural and manufacturing point of view you could save a lot by omitting it.

Then as IFE and cameras have matured, I had envisiged this Emirates idea at least a decade ago. I'm actually surprised it took this long for someone to say it publicly (and quite surprised it's an airline, to be honest - but if they're saying it (and not just a manufacturer) it's to be taken seriously).

I see a lot of comments about safety, but *obviously* the doors and emergency exits will all have portholes (just like on freighters) for exactly that reason.

And I say this as a window-seat guy.

Next step - VR goggles and you can be virtual Superman... ;)
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:44 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
But when I first heard this all I thought was... "finally".

This was something that struck me in my first week of uni many many years ago. The window belt is a big, heavy, complex, maintenance-prone boondoggle which adds a ton of weight and expense. From a structural and manufacturing point of view you could save a lot by omitting it.

Then as IFE and cameras have matured, I had envisiged this Emirates idea at least a decade ago. I'm actually surprised it took this long for someone to say it publicly (and quite surprised it's an airline, to be honest - but if they're saying it (and not just a manufacturer) it's to be taken seriously).

The thread starter article says "Sir Tim told the BBC that the ultimate aim was to have planes with no windows at all" and another interview where he gave a twenty year timeframe, so while I agree it is to be taken seriously it's also not imminent. Also the article says:

"Now you have one fuselage which has no structural weaknesses because of windows. The aircraft are lighter, the aircraft could fly faster, they'll burn far less fuel and fly higher."

But to harvest all the weight savings one would probably want to make the fuse material thinner too, since it no longer has voids in it for windows, so it might need to be a clean sheet design to fully capitalize the concept.

Since we're thinking this way, https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech ... ss-planes/ says:

The technology brings to mind an idea put forward by Airbus several years ago for windowless cockpits. The aircraft manufacturer suggested in a patent — one which you may or may not wish to describe as “wacky” — that it would be beneficial to move the cockpit to the back of the plane. It said that having it at the front reduces the aircraft’s aerodynamic qualities because of the complex shape and structure required to house it. The heaviness of the reinforced windows also adds to the aircraft’s overall weight, reducing its fuel efficiency. As with Emirates’ design, on-board cameras would feed real-time video and pre-stored data to displays in the cockpit, providing pilots with all the visual information they need.

Makes sense to me.

Then, windowless high-speed trains? Why not? The reality in most cases is if the driver sees something bad happening he can't stop in time to avoid it.

Windowless freight trucks (lorries)? Tesla has that for driverless ones but even human operated ones could get there too.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:43 pm

I wonder at what point some idiots like the likes of EK are going to propose getting rid of the cockpit windows as well. After all, they're bigger with a more pointy shape--I'd bet they cause more structural problems/inefficiency than the oval passenger windows.
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goosebayguy
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:19 pm

Virgin thought of doing thi some years ago. think it was the early 90's. Richard Branson thought about the money saved but then surveyed passengers and they hated the idea.
 
moa999
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:23 pm

globetrotter94 wrote:
I propose getting rid of the cockpit windows as well. .


Slightly more disastrous consequences if the link fails.

That said the cutting edge military drones are flown hundreds of kilometres away.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:23 pm

globetrotter94 wrote:
I wonder at what point some idiots like the likes of EK are going to propose getting rid of the cockpit windows as well. After all, they're bigger with a more pointy shape--I'd bet they cause more structural problems/inefficiency than the oval passenger windows.

Such "idiots" work for Airbus and filed patents in 2014 suggesting the flight deck be moved to the tail or below decks. Their reasoning is not idiotic at all. And in the end we may see one operator (err, pilot) on board and a 2nd on the ground with full ability to take over if the operator has a health issue etc. Think of the money that can be saved! Such remote pilot approach is already normal with UAVs and is even being proposed to deal with issues where self-driving cars need remote assistance. Yes, it could all go badly, but if reliability is eventually good enough, there is a lot of money to be saved by only having one pilot on board, or even eventually zero!

A nice article at https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech ... t-windows/ says:

In a patent filing published last week, the commercial aircraft manufacturer explains that having the cockpit at the front of the plane greatly reduces its aerodynamic qualities, with a more complex shape and structure required to house it. In addition, the heaviness of the windows and its reinforcements adds significantly to the aircraft’s overall weight, reducing its fuel efficiency markedly.

And then think of all the seat space the cockpit takes up, “limiting the financial profits for the airline company exploiting the aircraft,” as Airbus puts it in its patent filing.

With this in mind, the plane maker envisages moving the entire cockpit “to an unused zone of the aircraft”, suggesting locations such as the lower part of the vertical tail or below the main cabin area, as shown in the image below.

And a pretty picture too:

Image

And just for the record, the self-flying plane is a lot easier problem to solve than the self-driving car. See the threads in non-av for more on this.
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:
I wonder at what point some idiots like the likes of EK are going to propose getting rid of the cockpit windows as well. After all, they're bigger with a more pointy shape--I'd bet they cause more structural problems/inefficiency than the oval passenger windows.

Such "idiots" work for Airbus and filed patents in 2014 suggesting the flight deck be moved to the tail or below decks. Their reasoning is not idiotic at all. And in the end we may see one operator (err, pilot) on board and a 2nd on the ground with full ability to take over if the operator has a health issue etc. Think of the money that can be saved! Such remote pilot approach is already normal with UAVs and is even being proposed to deal with issues where self-driving cars need remote assistance. Yes, it could all go badly, but if reliability is eventually good enough, there is a lot of money to be saved by only having one pilot on board, or even eventually zero!

A nice article at https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech ... t-windows/ says:

In a patent filing published last week, the commercial aircraft manufacturer explains that having the cockpit at the front of the plane greatly reduces its aerodynamic qualities, with a more complex shape and structure required to house it. In addition, the heaviness of the windows and its reinforcements adds significantly to the aircraft’s overall weight, reducing its fuel efficiency markedly.

And then think of all the seat space the cockpit takes up, “limiting the financial profits for the airline company exploiting the aircraft,” as Airbus puts it in its patent filing.

With this in mind, the plane maker envisages moving the entire cockpit “to an unused zone of the aircraft”, suggesting locations such as the lower part of the vertical tail or below the main cabin area, as shown in the image below.

And a pretty picture too:

Image

And just for the record, the self-flying plane is a lot easier problem to solve than the self-driving car. See the threads in non-av for more on this.


Well, as far as Airbus's R&D goes, they might want to make up their minds about whether they want an all-window aircraft, as they were advertising until just a few years back, or a no window aircraft, as they are advocating now. Horribly confusing to keep track of what exactly Airbus R&D is up to.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:54 pm

globetrotter94 wrote:
Well, as far as Airbus's R&D goes, they might want to make up their minds about whether they want an all-window aircraft, as they were advertising until just a few years back, or a no window aircraft, as they are advocating now. Horribly confusing to keep track of what exactly Airbus R&D is up to.


That "all-window" fantasy (I won't even call it a concept) was nothing but a bit of PR fluff related to some brainstorming around advanced materials, evolutionary structural optimisation and additive layer manufacturing, as far as I can tell. It was never a serious proposal.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:56 pm

What windowless aircraft, from which manufacturer are they looking into buying?

Won’t be happening
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:10 pm

globetrotter94 wrote:
Well, as far as Airbus's R&D goes, they might want to make up their minds about whether they want an all-window aircraft, as they were advertising until just a few years back, or a no window aircraft, as they are advocating now. Horribly confusing to keep track of what exactly Airbus R&D is up to.

They don't care one jot how confused you are, they'll happily grab patents on any/all concepts that have potential.

SJL wrote:
What windowless aircraft, from which manufacturer are they looking into buying?

Won’t be happening

Not now, not in anything currently on the boards, but who knows about 20 years from now.

See comment above about Henry Ford's customers mostly wanting faster horses.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:52 pm

alan3 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
I already avoid the 787 for its windows, I will stay away from windowless aircraft as well.

What about all those passengers that currently have no desire to look outside and close the window shades as soon as they can? Will they be forced to look at screens with projected images of the outside world? That would be funny.


Surprised to hear someone who wouldn't like windowless planes doesn't like the 787.

For me, 787 is best of both worlds....it has windows but you don't have to choose between fully closed or glaring blinding sun. With a modest tint, it won't fillt he cabin with light.

During daytime long-haul flights, looky-loos who want to see the mountains, end up blinding the entire cabin when they open the shades. With the 787 you can just apply a modest tint and see outside without filling the cabin with brightness.

But it’s not surprising. With the 787 you can’t fully block the sun and if you can you pretty much fully block the window. The best thing about windo shades is that you can pull it to about half to block the sun and the rest demand fully unblocked and the best part is nobody by you can control it.

I as well would never fly on a windowless plane if I had the choice of not doing so, imagine how hot the thing would get!
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:00 pm

It was coming. With high-resolution cameras and screens, it makes sense.
But the quality of the visual must be really good. Way better than in today's IFE system.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:27 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I wouldnt dream of getting on a windowless plane. I dont get motion sickness, but I might if I was in a situation like that.


Agree. There will always be a slight delay between the camera and the screen. You can't see it consciously if it is small enough but you can bet that bouncing around in turbulence your brain will see something "not right" and make motion sickness more of a problem.
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:49 am

Wow not that a good idea! Without window and sunlight, there will be lots of germ and bacteria that live inside the plane for long time. It will go bad!
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Flightsimboy
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:43 am

aviationaware wrote:
I will always chose a real window if given the choice. I think it's one of the stupidest ideas ever. Introducing artificial windows where there can be no real ones, okay. But replacing real windows with screens is beyond dumb.


They already have these in the middle seats in First Class. I am not sure why it is a surprise here. Yes getting a whole aircraft where windows should be might be a stretch though.
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:10 am

I would love to see EK trying it on a smaller scale sooner, may be in the form of a panoramic windowless Business Lounge on upcoming A380/B777X. Who knows, private jets could pick up the idea in the form of panoramic windowless views as they are always intrigued by the concept of panoramic windows.

Image
 
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:12 am

767333ER wrote:
I as well would never fly on a windowless plane if I had the choice of not doing so, imagine how hot the thing would get!


I think you have that bass ackwards... certainly for most liveries (Eurowhite) the metal (or composite) skin and its thermal insulation will be reflecting / insulating far more thermal energy than a window will be...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:16 am

FlyboyOz wrote:
Wow not that a good idea! Without window and sunlight, there will be lots of germ and bacteria that live inside the plane for long time. It will go bad!


:?: :!: :?:

Yeah my fridge is absolutely chock full of deadly bacteria. So is my oven. And all the cupboards I keep my food in...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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767333ER
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:06 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I as well would never fly on a windowless plane if I had the choice of not doing so, imagine how hot the thing would get!


I think you have that bass ackwards... certainly for most liveries (Eurowhite) the metal (or composite) skin and its thermal insulation will be reflecting / insulating far more thermal energy than a window will be...

Nothing is 100% efficient. This includes LCD/LED displays. When electricity is converted into another form of energy, some of it is always lost as heat. If a screen of a TV, tablet, or phone gets hot, just imagine how hot a cabin fully lined in displays would be, in fact next time you fly on a plane with PTVs, just feel how hot the screen gets. Then one has to consider he inefficiencies involved with keeping the things relatively cool and and from catching on fire. Far worse than having small little holes filled with glass letting in the UV, visible light, and infrared radiation.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
gunnerman
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:53 pm

If windowless planes become a reality, it could be in 20 years from now. By then, technology would have marched on and it's unlikely that we'll be concerned about screens and devices getting too hot.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:30 pm

767333ER wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I as well would never fly on a windowless plane if I had the choice of not doing so, imagine how hot the thing would get!


I think you have that bass ackwards... certainly for most liveries (Eurowhite) the metal (or composite) skin and its thermal insulation will be reflecting / insulating far more thermal energy than a window will be...

Nothing is 100% efficient. This includes LCD/LED displays. When electricity is converted into another form of energy, some of it is always lost as heat. If a screen of a TV, tablet, or phone gets hot, just imagine how hot a cabin fully lined in displays would be, in fact next time you fly on a plane with PTVs, just feel how hot the screen gets. Then one has to consider he inefficiencies involved with keeping the things relatively cool and and from catching on fire. Far worse than having small little holes filled with glass letting in the UV, visible light, and infrared radiation.


The point is that an aircraft needs to be insulated from external solar heating on the ground in a hot country at one extreme and from -50degC air at altitude at night on the other. The thermal load from passengers and systems is basically constant and much less significant than the range in those external influences. Having windows reduces insulation in the cold cruise at night case and allows additional solar heating in the hot ground case.

Whichever way you look at it, lots of windows means air conditioning has to be dimensioned for more extreme heating and cooling - making it less efficient than it would be with no windows.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Tucker1
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:16 pm

Wow
 
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sergegva
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:14 pm

YellowJ wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
But doesn't the 787 have larger windows than most widebody aircraft? If it's a window that you want than I don't think the 787 is the type of aircraft to stay away from.

Yes, that's true. The 787 windows are about the same size as the windows on the MD-11 were. But those didn't come with an annoying dimming system.

To be honest I don't think I have a real problem with dimmable windows. It's only crew locking it on the darkest setting for hours on end that would drive me mad. That ridiculous behaviour needs to stop.


However you still can see out of it.

Way better than when the crew instructs you to close the shades completely for the benefit of the cabin. I don't get the complaint.


When it's dimmed at the maximum setting, you see almost nothing at all, except possibly the sun if it is direct...

ORDJOE wrote:
If this saved $10 from the price of a ticket vs a windowed cabin people would forget windows to save a few bucks I am sure. The unfortunate state of air travel


On the other side, people who currently pick a window seat for a fee won't bother to do it if they disappear!
 
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FA9295
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:14 pm

So there appears to be all of this talk on here about airlines purposely dimming the windows on their Boeing 787 aircraft. Is there any particular reason as to why they do this? Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but I've never actually flown on a Boeing 787 before so my knowledge here is kind of slim at best...
 
moa999
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:20 pm

Depends on the flight but many pick window seats for the extra head Room for skirting and to jam a pillow into

As for the 787 its common on overnight flights for shutters to be lowered so early morning light doesn't wake pax - it's a simple switch on the 787
 
YellowJ
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:37 pm

sergegva wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Yes, that's true. The 787 windows are about the same size as the windows on the MD-11 were. But those didn't come with an annoying dimming system.

To be honest I don't think I have a real problem with dimmable windows. It's only crew locking it on the darkest setting for hours on end that would drive me mad. That ridiculous behaviour needs to stop.


However you still can see out of it.

Way better than when the crew instructs you to close the shades completely for the benefit of the cabin. I don't get the complaint.


When it's dimmed at the maximum setting, you see almost nothing at all, except possibly the sun if it is direct...

ORDJOE wrote:
If this saved $10 from the price of a ticket vs a windowed cabin people would forget windows to save a few bucks I am sure. The unfortunate state of air travel


On the other side, people who currently pick a window seat for a fee won't bother to do it if they disappear!


When you are instructed to put the shade down, you see nothing at all. So "almost nothing" is better than nothing any day.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:38 pm

moa999 wrote:
As for the 787 its common on overnight flights for shutters to be lowered so early morning light doesn't wake pax - it's a simple switch on the 787

Ah, that makes more sense now. I figured that may have been the case, but I didn't know if this was also done during the daytime flights as well...
 
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sergegva
Posts: 222
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:51 pm

YellowJ wrote:

When you are instructed to put the shade down, you see nothing at all. So "almost nothing" is better than nothing any day.


Thank god, 'till today i was never forced to let the shade down. If you keep watching outside, the FA won't ask you to put it down. In my experience, they ask you to close it if you're blatantly not looking through the window for a long time.

Even when the sun is direct, it is always possible to find a compromise to contemplate the earth without illuminating the whole cabin... Like opening partly the shade (in this case, your head blocks much of the light) and put it down as soon as you stop looking. I've even used the blanket to block the light once.

In a 787 with fully dimmed windows, you will miss the sea of Aral drying up or the frozen fjords in Siberia, which is nothing but a shame.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Emirates looking to Windowless planes [BBC]

Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:01 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
FlyboyOz wrote:
Wow not that a good idea! Without window and sunlight, there will be lots of germ and bacteria that live inside the plane for long time. It will go bad!


:?: :!: :?:

Yeah my fridge is absolutely chock full of deadly bacteria. So is my oven. And all the cupboards I keep my food in...
Since when do pax aircraft cabins operate above 350 or below 40 degrees?
No windows on transport aircraft is one more step to the ultimate goal. Passengers will be naked to preclude weapons smuggled on-board and then drugged to prevent the ones who do smuggle something on-board from using it. With everyone comatose for the duration, they can be stacked 3 or four high. No need for IFE, lavatories, food, water, or windows, either. Think of the savings, then.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?

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