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Zoedyn
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India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:04 pm

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 501623.cms

As per the report, India has turned down China’s request to double weekly flight frequencies between the two countries; China's propsal for India to have open skies with Kunming (capital of Yunnan Province) and Hainan Island got rejected too

The Indian side cited difficulty of Indian carriers in getting good slots at Chinese airports as reason for rejection

That sounds fair. Indian carriers must have drawn a useful lesson from what the US airlines went through regarding the slot issue at the hands of Chinese airport operators, who have an almost incurable habit of prejudicially manipulating slots to favor Chinese carriers (recall AA at PEK)
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:50 pm

A good negotiating tactic if indeed true.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:26 pm

I find this quote interesting

When some countries like China reportedly said their airlines also do not get slots in choked Indian airports like those at Delhi and Mumbai, India told them that slot allocation at these places is controlled by the airport operator. “This cannot be compared to state-owned airports in China where the state controls everything, including slots. Once Chinese airports give our airlines good slots, enhancing bilaterals will be considered,” said the official.

How difficult are slots to get in India? If Chinese airlines can’t get good slots either, the authority controlling the slots doesn’t really matter.
 
airbazar
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:48 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
The Indian side cited difficulty of Indian carriers in getting good slots at Chinese airports as reason for rejection

Lame excuse. So while everyone gets rejected their requests for additional capacity, EK keeps getting more. Makes you wonder who's really in control of India's aviation :scratchchin:
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:25 pm

airbazar wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
The Indian side cited difficulty of Indian carriers in getting good slots at Chinese airports as reason for rejection

Lame excuse. So while everyone gets rejected their requests for additional capacity, EK keeps getting more. Makes you wonder who's really in control of India's aviation :scratchchin:


EK/Dubai has not been given a seat increase to India since Summer 2015. Moreover, there is enough demand between Dubai and India (from both sides) to justify the current seat allotment of 66,000 weekly seats.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:01 pm

airbazar wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
The Indian side cited difficulty of Indian carriers in getting good slots at Chinese airports as reason for rejection

Lame excuse. So while everyone gets rejected their requests for additional capacity, EK keeps getting more. Makes you wonder who's really in control of India's aviation :scratchchin:


Keep in mind that also has to do with Indian carriers hitting the ceiling on their share of the India - UAE bilateral.

Anyway, as mentioned - nothing has moved since 2015 on that front either.
Vahroone
 
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globetrotter94
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:03 pm

Simple fact of the matter is, expanding bilateral rights with China would favor Chinese carriers a lot while giving almost nothing of value to Indian carriers. Offering of flights to Indian flyers is already competitive enough. I also do not believe for a second that Chinese carriers would use their rights to fly to under-served Indian airports; but simply double down on DEL and BOM. So there is nothing in it for India. Great that it got rejected.
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:16 pm

airbazar wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
The Indian side cited difficulty of Indian carriers in getting good slots at Chinese airports as reason for rejection

Lame excuse. So while everyone gets rejected their requests for additional capacity, EK keeps getting more. Makes you wonder who's really in control of India's aviation :scratchchin:

At Chinese airport. Think about the difficulty AA have went through to get a pair of daily slot at PEK
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binayak
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:22 pm

Glad to see Indian govt return to senses and prevent any more subsidized carriers flood the market.
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peterinlisbon
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:13 pm

binayak wrote:
Glad to see Indian govt return to senses and prevent any more subsidized carriers flood the market.


It's good for India's badly-run airlines, but not good for people that want to catch a flight.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:19 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
binayak wrote:
Glad to see Indian govt return to senses and prevent any more subsidized carriers flood the market.


It's good for India's badly-run airlines, but not good for people that want to catch a flight.

How many bilaterals has India maxed out?

It really impacts business if it becomes easier to do business elsewhere.

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raylee67
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:37 pm

It could be more than that too. Politically, India may want to actually limit economic relationship with China.
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:35 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
binayak wrote:
Glad to see Indian govt return to senses and prevent any more subsidized carriers flood the market.


It's good for India's badly-run airlines, but not good for people that want to catch a flight.


Why Chinese carriers already offer $550 JFK-BOM fares. So why bad for the consumer. What more do you want? This Anet notion that open skies is always the answer smacks in the face even of real economic theory. IF the playing fields were more or less equal (note not exactly equal), it would be fine. Also India needs jobs, and aviation provides that. While the INdian govt keeps sabatoging aviation with taxes, at least they have controlled the seat bleeding. To those who say look at the INdia dubai demand - its full up and deserves all those seats. The indian carriers fly the O&D and EK flies some O&D and mostly connections to points west / south. So please. India has been very generous to the UAE. They want to have high tourist inflows to the UAE from Inda and build their cities into aviation hubs on India’s back. The UAE could have allowed unused AUH, SHJ seats go to flights to/from dubai but said NO. Indian carriers would have brought more tourists to UAS and EK could have started more flights (instead of EY hording seats). So much for UAE the victim. They TAKE but give very little. BTw I think the Indian example is also relevant to the US fifth freedom discussion. THe ME3 believe in open skies when it goes one way. They,a nd the chinese, hord slots and do everything they can to stifle competition.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:49 pm

Based on current agreement, China and Indian carrier can operate 42w flight to another country ; however there is only 5 flight operated by indian side now (5w del-pvg by AI)
 
binayak
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:40 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Why Chinese carriers already offer $550 JFK-BOM fares. So why bad for the consumer. What more do you want? This Anet notion that open skies is always the answer smacks in the face even of real economic theory. IF the playing fields were more or less equal (note not exactly equal), it would be fine. Also India needs jobs, and aviation provides that. While the INdian govt keeps sabatoging aviation with taxes, at least they have controlled the seat bleeding. To those who say look at the INdia dubai demand - its full up and deserves all those seats. The indian carriers fly the O&D and EK flies some O&D and mostly connections to points west / south. So please. India has been very generous to the UAE. They want to have high tourist inflows to the UAE from Inda and build their cities into aviation hubs on India’s back. The UAE could have allowed unused AUH, SHJ seats go to flights to/from dubai but said NO. Indian carriers would have brought more tourists to UAS and EK could have started more flights (instead of EY hording seats). So much for UAE the victim. They TAKE but give very little. BTw I think the Indian example is also relevant to the US fifth freedom discussion. THe ME3 believe in open skies when it goes one way. They,a nd the chinese, hord slots and do everything they can to stifle competition.

Completely agree with you. What has been done with EK in the past shouldn't be repeated any more.
I must say it is partially due to mass dumping of subsidized carriers that has led to a notion of India being low yielding. These are the reasons why Indian carriers haven't fared well in long haul market.
If ten years ago the govt would've supported Indian carriers (not subsidized) then today Indian aviation would've taken a different shape.
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:31 pm

For 20 years I have heard one excuse or the other for Indian carriers not competing with global airlines, and I am quite certain that even 20 years from now Indian carriers will not be able to compete with global airlines. I wonder what is so special about aviation that domestic players are protected at the cost of consumers. You wouldn't want Indian government to block the sale of Samsung moblies to protect Micromax, would you?
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dtw2hyd
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:08 pm

US-ME3 open-skies capacity pales in comparison to India-ME3, but 42 weekly flights are too low between two countries with Billion+ population.

I think Canadians have a solution for this ASA abuse. Cap sixth freedom traffic percentage.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:12 pm

globetrotter94 wrote:
Simple fact of the matter is, expanding bilateral rights with China would favor Chinese carriers a lot while giving almost nothing of value to Indian carriers. Offering of flights to Indian flyers is already competitive enough. I also do not believe for a second that Chinese carriers would use their rights to fly to under-served Indian airports; but simply double down on DEL and BOM. So there is nothing in it for India. Great that it got rejected.

Yeah, bad to keep out Chinese investors. People prefer being served in their language. So I see a benefit of increasing service for India. Bad for India job growth at some level.

India should improve processes for international to international connections. It is better located for Asia to Africa connections and a most of both legs are in NEO/MAX range allowing low risk growth.

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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:31 pm

binayak wrote:
Glad to see Indian govt return to senses and prevent any more subsidized carriers flood the market.


*cough* Air India *cough*
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binayak
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:32 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
unrave wrote:
For 20 years I have heard one excuse or the other for Indian carriers not competing with global airlines, and I am quite certain that even 20 years from now Indian carriers will not be able to compete with global airlines. I wonder what is so special about aviation that domestic players are protected at the cost of consumers. You wouldn't want Indian government to block the sale of Samsung moblies to protect Micromax, would you?

Indian carriers can compete with global airlines w. r. t product (both soft and hard) but not with someone who provides below $600 fares in India US. (thanks to subsidies). Today if LH /LX etc want to add more flights to India, I'll completely support your point but not with these gulf /Chinese carriers.
Currently Indian carriers do face stiff competition with global ones even after so many measures by the government.
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binayak
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
binayak wrote:
Glad to see Indian govt return to senses and prevent any more subsidized carriers flood the market.


*cough* Air India *cough*

*hiccup * that's a different story altogether.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
directorguy
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:23 am

Interesting.
Isn't Modi attending a summit in Shanghai?
 
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:25 am

airbazar wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
The Indian side cited difficulty of Indian carriers in getting good slots at Chinese airports as reason for rejection

Lame excuse. So while everyone gets rejected their requests for additional capacity, EK keeps getting more. Makes you wonder who's really in control of India's aviation :scratchchin:


In India, bilaterals & slot allocations are handled on a (suit)case by (suit)case basis. the ME3, especially EK, have mastered this art.

The Chinese carriers are incredibly stupid to have not learnt how the game works in India.
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MaverickM11
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:44 am

Who is really clamoring for more capacity? Actual traffic between the two countries is small and fares are terrible.
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kitplane01
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:09 am

globetrotter94 wrote:
Simple fact of the matter is, expanding bilateral rights with China would favor Chinese carriers a lot while giving almost nothing of value to Indian carriers. Offering of flights to Indian flyers is already competitive enough. I also do not believe for a second that Chinese carriers would use their rights to fly to under-served Indian airports; but simply double down on DEL and BOM. So there is nothing in it for India. Great that it got rejected.


I always thought the purpose of trade deals was to help consumers, not large corporations. And more competition *would* mean lower prices and more choices for time and airline.
 
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globetrotter94
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:31 am

BawliBooch wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
The Indian side cited difficulty of Indian carriers in getting good slots at Chinese airports as reason for rejection

Lame excuse. So while everyone gets rejected their requests for additional capacity, EK keeps getting more. Makes you wonder who's really in control of India's aviation :scratchchin:


In India, bilaterals & slot allocations are handled on a (suit)case by (suit)case basis. the ME3, especially EK, have mastered this art.

The Chinese carriers are incredibly stupid to have not learnt how the game works in India.


There is nothing to be learnt at this stage really. India gives the ME3 more access because Indian airlines (AI, 9W, 6E, et al.) are also active flying into those countries, and are even pushing into the Indian side of the bilateral limits. This situation does not apply for the Chinese carriers. Furthermore, India and China are not really friendly, so any sort of diplomatic incentive to carry favor for the Chinese carriers is sorely lacking as well.
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hardheid
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:17 am

lightsaber wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:
Simple fact of the matter is, expanding bilateral rights with China would favor Chinese carriers a lot while giving almost nothing of value to Indian carriers. Offering of flights to Indian flyers is already competitive enough. I also do not believe for a second that Chinese carriers would use their rights to fly to under-served Indian airports; but simply double down on DEL and BOM. So there is nothing in it for India. Great that it got rejected.

Yeah, bad to keep out Chinese investors. People prefer being served in their language. So I see a benefit of increasing service for India. Bad for India job growth at some level.

India should improve processes for international to international connections. It is better located for Asia to Africa connections and a most of both legs are in NEO/MAX range allowing low risk growth.

Lightsaber


I couldn't agree with you more. Investors and consumers lose, as is often the case with Indian Government policy. India needs itself some Krugman.
 
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scbriml
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:53 am

binayak wrote:
scbriml wrote:
binayak wrote:
Glad to see Indian govt return to senses and prevent any more subsidized carriers flood the market.


*cough* Air India *cough*

*hiccup * that's a different story altogether.


There are different versions of sucking on the government's teat?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Kashmon
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:23 pm

hardheid wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:
Simple fact of the matter is, expanding bilateral rights with China would favor Chinese carriers a lot while giving almost nothing of value to Indian carriers. Offering of flights to Indian flyers is already competitive enough. I also do not believe for a second that Chinese carriers would use their rights to fly to under-served Indian airports; but simply double down on DEL and BOM. So there is nothing in it for India. Great that it got rejected.

Yeah, bad to keep out Chinese investors. People prefer being served in their language. So I see a benefit of increasing service for India. Bad for India job growth at some level.

India should improve processes for international to international connections. It is better located for Asia to Africa connections and a most of both legs are in NEO/MAX range allowing low risk growth.

Lightsaber


I couldn't agree with you more. Investors and consumers lose, as is often the case with Indian Government policy. India needs itself some Krugman.


oddly enough India in many ways is more socialist and has more government interference than China...

if the Indian people just let the markets work without government restrictions their economy would be 2 decades ahead....

instead they keep entrusting power to their nutty leaders
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India turns down China's request to double flight frequency

Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:40 pm

Kashmon wrote:
...
oddly enough India in many ways is more socialist and has more government interference than China...

if the Indian people just let the markets work without government restrictions their economy would be 2 decades ahead....

instead they keep entrusting power to their nutty leaders


Chinese can subsidize $1B with pride and 1.25 Billion Indians discuss about $300Million subsidy ad nauseam with guilt.

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