Flanker7
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:29 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think KLM has a mixed fleet of Airbus and Boeing aircraft. So preferences don't play a big role.

Making a choice for the next 30 years KLM may replace the 737 just like LH, BA, AF, SAS, Easyjet benefitting from the A321 & AKH capability.
The GTF seem quieter than the CFM's, but KLM E&M is a big GE partner, so might prefer LEAP's. For Transavia there might be different trade-offs.

Image


When did KLM operate A321s?


Only today on A.net. Photoshop
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:20 am

It says on top "Aviation Concepts". This one is a relative low quality (tail, nose), but there are some that are real hard to distinguish.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:28 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think KLM has a mixed fleet of Airbus and Boeing aircraft. So preferences don't play a big role.

Making a choice for the next 30 years KLM may replace the 737 just like LH, BA, AF, SAS, Easyjet benefitting from the A321 & AKH capability.
The GTF seem quieter than the CFM's, but KLM E&M is a big GE partner, so might prefer LEAP's. For Transavia there might be different trade-offs.

Image


When did KLM operate A321s?


Only today on A.net. Photoshop


Thanks. I was wondering if my memory had faded.

This photo is more relavent to the discussion of KLM and narrowbodies

Image

KLM has more widebodies than narrowbodies. They have an impressive international network that far exceeds the international demands of AMS alone. Given their relatively small narrowbody fleet, they have high utilization on short sectors to help fill the long haul flights. What airplane is the best for 500-1000 mile flights to cities like Milan, Madrid, Stockholm, etc?
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:57 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

When did KLM operate A321s?


Only today on A.net. Photoshop


Thanks. I was wondering if my memory had faded.

This photo is more relavent to the discussion of KLM and narrowbodies

Image

KLM is one of the few airlines that has more widebodies than narrowbodies. They have an impressive international network that far exceeds the international demands of AMS alone. Given their relatively small narrowbody fleet, they have high utilization on short sectors to help fill the long haul flights. What airplane is the best for 500-1000 mile flights to cities like Milan, Madrid, Stockholm, etc?


Oeps, back to the future. That must be an old picture, things changed.

Image

What plane is best for 500-1000NM flights. I guess I don't know, it's not an easy to answer question, you can't look at seperate city pairs in isolation. It depends on also changing capacity requirements, cargo opportunity, noise restrictions, longer term fleet commonality & network flexibility. An early morning AMS-LHR-AMS rotation might be followed by a 5-6 hr flight, taking off later that morning. They used to do that with A310s and 767s in the past.
Last edited by keesje on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:10 pm

keesje wrote:

What plane is best for 500-1000NM flights. I guess I don't know, it's not an easy to answer question, you can't look at seperate city pairs in isolation.
It depends on also changing capacity requirements, cargo opportunity, noise restrictions, longer term fleet commonality & network flexibility. An early morning AMS-LHR-AMS rotation might be followed by a 5-6 hr flight, taking off later that morning. They used to do that with A310s and 767s in the past.


That is not how KLM uses its fleet. They use their narrowbodies for short flights with very few exceeding 3 hours. KLM uses widebodies on routes that are 6 hours long. AMS is a huge freight destination and they are using their widebodies to the Middle East and Africa. They are using 777s and A330s on longer flights. 737s and A320s don’t carry anywhere near the volume or weight of a 777.

By the way The 737-10 is expected to carry more cargo than an A321neo when configured to hold the same amount of fuel.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:23 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:

What plane is best for 500-1000NM flights. I guess I don't know, it's not an easy to answer question, you can't look at seperate city pairs in isolation.
It depends on also changing capacity requirements, cargo opportunity, noise restrictions, longer term fleet commonality & network flexibility. An early morning AMS-LHR-AMS rotation might be followed by a 5-6 hr flight, taking off later that morning. They used to do that with A310s and 767s in the past.


That is not how KLM uses its fleet. They use their narrowbodies for short flights with very few exceeding 3 hours. KLM uses widebodies on routes that are 6 hours long. AMS is a huge freight destination and they are using their widebodies to the Middle East and Africa. They are using 777s and A330s on longer flights. 737s and A320s don’t carry anywhere near the volume or weight of a 777.

By the way The 737-10 is expected to carry more cargo than an A321neo when configured to hold the same amount of fuel.



But an 737 can't carry containers in it's cargo hold, can it? So isn't incredibly inefficient to use it to carry more cargo than just the passengers luggage?
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:54 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:

By the way The 737-10 is expected to carry more cargo than an A321neo when configured to hold the same amount of fuel.


That is good news. Than it should probably be able to also carry extra fuel tanks, like the 97T A321LR and be used as 737-10LR !
E.g. on the Atlantic by United, where Aer Lingus, Air Transat, Norwegian, Primera, TAP and SATA plan to use their A321neoLRs.
Last edited by keesje on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Polot
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:54 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:

What plane is best for 500-1000NM flights. I guess I don't know, it's not an easy to answer question, you can't look at seperate city pairs in isolation.
It depends on also changing capacity requirements, cargo opportunity, noise restrictions, longer term fleet commonality & network flexibility. An early morning AMS-LHR-AMS rotation might be followed by a 5-6 hr flight, taking off later that morning. They used to do that with A310s and 767s in the past.


That is not how KLM uses its fleet. They use their narrowbodies for short flights with very few exceeding 3 hours. KLM uses widebodies on routes that are 6 hours long. AMS is a huge freight destination and they are using their widebodies to the Middle East and Africa. They are using 777s and A330s on longer flights. 737s and A320s don’t carry anywhere near the volume or weight of a 777.

By the way The 737-10 is expected to carry more cargo than an A321neo when configured to hold the same amount of fuel.



But an 737 can't carry containers in it's cargo hold, can it? So isn't incredibly inefficient to use it to carry more cargo than just the passengers luggage?

That just means it takes longer to load the cargo. Whether the longer turnaround means it is “incredibly” inefficient to use for cargo is up to the operator. It is not like 737s can’t and don’t carry cargo.
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:04 pm

Polot wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

That is not how KLM uses its fleet. They use their narrowbodies for short flights with very few exceeding 3 hours. KLM uses widebodies on routes that are 6 hours long. AMS is a huge freight destination and they are using their widebodies to the Middle East and Africa. They are using 777s and A330s on longer flights. 737s and A320s don’t carry anywhere near the volume or weight of a 777.

By the way The 737-10 is expected to carry more cargo than an A321neo when configured to hold the same amount of fuel.



But an 737 can't carry containers in it's cargo hold, can it? So isn't incredibly inefficient to use it to carry more cargo than just the passengers luggage?

That just means it takes longer to load the cargo. Whether the longer turnaround means it is “incredibly” inefficient to use for cargo is up to the operator. It is not like 737s can’t and don’t carry cargo.


Well quickly loading the content of a few 2500lbs AKH's as bulk will be interesting. Specially if it's 100kg packages, liquids, cooled stuff, fragile etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z5n_bqzqjg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4W6zbUYbDo

Not really convincing, is it?

Any new Boeing NSA or NMA will have container option.
Until then, let's play down / deny / ask for proof.
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Momo1435
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:41 pm

Telair has developed a containerized cargo loading system for the 737 that will first be installed in the GECAS 737-800 freighter conversions. And will soon be available for all the NG and the MAX models.

http://flexibleloadingsystem.com/home/

If KLM want's containerized cargo loading they will have an option for the 737. It will depend on the costs of this particular system if it's interesting enough for them to buy it for a possible MAX order. Norwegian is already using the sliding carpet, which is 1 of the part of this container system on their 737 MAX.
 
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:52 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Telair has developed a containerized cargo loading system for the 737 that will first be installed in the GECAS 737-800 freighter conversions. And will soon be available for all the NG and the MAX models.

http://flexibleloadingsystem.com/home/

If KLM want's containerized cargo loading they will have an option for the 737. It will depend on the costs of this particular system if it's interesting enough for them to buy it for a possible MAX order. Norwegian is already using the sliding carpet, which is 1 of the part of this container system on their 737 MAX.

Very interesting news indeed, thank you :thumbsup: This may warrant a separate thread - who will use containers on the 737! :bigthumbsup:
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:53 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Telair has developed a containerized cargo loading system for the 737 that will first be installed in the GECAS 737-800 freighter conversions. And will soon be available for all the NG and the MAX models.

http://flexibleloadingsystem.com/home/

If KLM want's containerized cargo loading they will have an option for the 737. It will depend on the costs of this particular system if it's interesting enough for them to buy it for a possible MAX order. Norwegian is already using the sliding carpet, which is 1 of the part of this container system on their 737 MAX.


I doesn't come close to AKH capability (volume/weight) , but still seems a good idea / option! It makes possible moving heavy/ fragile, without 4 folks being busy (un)loading. This looks so simple it might work. Interested if this becomes a success!
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:07 pm

keesje wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Telair has developed a containerized cargo loading system for the 737 that will first be installed in the GECAS 737-800 freighter conversions. And will soon be available for all the NG and the MAX models.

http://flexibleloadingsystem.com/home/

If KLM want's containerized cargo loading they will have an option for the 737. It will depend on the costs of this particular system if it's interesting enough for them to buy it for a possible MAX order. Norwegian is already using the sliding carpet, which is 1 of the part of this container system on their 737 MAX.


I doesn't come close to AKH capability (volume/weight) , but still seems a good idea / option! It makes possible moving heavy/ fragile, without 4 folks being busy (un)loading. This looks so simple it might work. Interested if this becomes a success!


If maximizing volume and weight is the goal, then they will bulk load. You have more useable volume and save weight not using containers. That is why many airlines dont use containers on A320 family. Some bulk load a319s and use containers on A321s to save space on the A319
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:58 pm

If someone comes with a better 737 system, maybe the existing bulkloading is a kind of.. you have to live with it. And we certainly don't want to go there.

AKH are such a waste of space. :wink2:

Image

A ramp rat would easily stuff in an additional 5 bags, 6 boxes, a gitar and 2 dogs.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:35 pm

keesje wrote:
If someone comes with a better 737 system, maybe the existing bulkloading is a kind of.. you have to live with it. And we certainly don't want to go there.

AKH are such a waste of space. :wink2:

Image

A ramp rat would easily stuff in an additional 5 bags, 6 boxes, a gitar and 2 dogs.


You are the container expert :). You lose volume inside the container because they cant be perfectly packed and you also lose volume outside from the physical container and the volume outside. Each container also adds about 100 pounds of weight too. There is a cost benefit analysis on whether they are worthwhile. If an airline wants to maximize cargo they wouldnt use containers but if labor is more costly they may choose to use them
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:22 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
If someone comes with a better 737 system, maybe the existing bulkloading is a kind of.. you have to live with it. And we certainly don't want to go there.

AKH are such a waste of space. :wink2:

Image

A ramp rat would easily stuff in an additional 5 bags, 6 boxes, a gitar and 2 dogs.


You are the container expert :). You lose volume inside the container because they cant be perfectly packed and you also lose volume outside from the physical container and the volume outside. Each container also adds about 100 pounds of weight too. There is a cost benefit analysis on whether they are worthwhile. If an airline wants to maximize cargo they wouldnt use containers but if labor is more costly they may choose to use them


Well the A320 belly is a big higher, wider and that 737 cargo is eating space too, x2..

Image

But on the other side switching to AKH's really destroys jobs, which is a disadvantage.
Many carriers use a combination of bulk & AKH's for various reasons.
Not on the 737 where you had no choice, may that will change.
The height of the 737 container seems further limited by the cargo door a bit.
That's a disadvantage, but still it could be a good idea.

Image
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:36 am

Momo1435 wrote:
Telair has developed a containerized cargo loading system for the 737 that will first be installed in the GECAS 737-800 freighter conversions. And will soon be available for all the NG and the MAX models.

http://flexibleloadingsystem.com/home/

If KLM want's containerized cargo loading they will have an option for the 737. It will depend on the costs of this particular system if it's interesting enough for them to buy it for a possible MAX order. Norwegian is already using the sliding carpet, which is 1 of the part of this container system on their 737 MAX.


Separate this into its own thread please, either here or in TechOps. I agree with other posters that this warrants its own thread. This would take away a major selling point from Airbus and could get Boeing back into the game in Europe as well. Containerized cargo is why Airbus has such a stranglehold on narrow-body orders among most major legacy carriers in Europe (KLM and LOT excluded).
 
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:50 am

KLM will stick with the 737
 
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:35 am

If somebody develops a containerized system for the 737, we have the proof that people are speculating about containers on narrow body aircraft.

The argument that containers do not bring an advantage for the A320family aircraft is therefore ad absurdum.

The containerization of a 737 will be an aftermarket project, whereas the container on the A320 is an established standard. The inwards opening cargo doors is leading to the 737 will always offer fewer container positions and will make it difficult to scrap manual loading altogether.
 
RSD
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:54 am

Amsterdam wrote:
KLM will stick with the 737

You could say the same for AF, they will stick to A320. To me it would make more sense to order 1 of the two, and not both but we will see.

But there is something interesting going on, Transavia is looking at the 737MAX and wants to fly them from 2021. Link to the dutch article: https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... ng-737-max
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:21 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
If somebody develops a containerized system for the 737, we have the proof that people are speculating about containers on narrow body aircraft.

The argument that containers do not bring an advantage for the A320family aircraft is therefore ad absurdum.

The containerization of a 737 will be an aftermarket project, whereas the container on the A320 is an established standard. The inwards opening cargo doors is leading to the 737 will always offer fewer container positions and will make it difficult to scrap manual loading altogether.


The new TelAir container seems a nice optional extra for the 737. Iyou can reduce manpower from 4 to 2 that's already an enhancement. These containers have less than half the volume and max loads as AKH's but that doesn't mean it might be a improvement over current bulkloading, even if it has to keep the door areas open.

Image
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mjoelnir
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:29 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
If somebody develops a containerized system for the 737, we have the proof that people are speculating about containers on narrow body aircraft.

The argument that containers do not bring an advantage for the A320family aircraft is therefore ad absurdum.

The containerization of a 737 will be an aftermarket project, whereas the container on the A320 is an established standard. The inwards opening cargo doors is leading to the 737 will always offer fewer container positions and will make it difficult to scrap manual loading altogether.


I was doing a bit of research and this system was initially designed at the request of dedicated freight airlines ordering the 737-800BCF. Airlines like DHL containerize the main deck and want the lower deck containerized as well to help with their cargo sorting operation

I have no doubt that containers help some A320family operators and does bring an advantage. The question in this thread is about KLM and it is hard to know what impact containers would have on their decision


Many European airlines have moved to using the A320 family frames with containers to reduce manpower needs. KLM is operating in Europe.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:31 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
If somebody develops a containerized system for the 737, we have the proof that people are speculating about containers on narrow body aircraft.

The argument that containers do not bring an advantage for the A320family aircraft is therefore ad absurdum.

The containerization of a 737 will be an aftermarket project, whereas the container on the A320 is an established standard. The inwards opening cargo doors is leading to the 737 will always offer fewer container positions and will make it difficult to scrap manual loading altogether.


I was doing a bit of research and this system was initially designed at the request of dedicated freight airlines ordering the 737-800BCF. Airlines like DHL containerize the main deck and want the lower deck containerized as well to help with their cargo sorting operation

I have no doubt that containers help some A320family operators and does bring an advantage. The question in this thread is about KLM and it is hard to know what impact containers would have on their decision
 
Flanker7
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:56 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
If somebody develops a containerized system for the 737, we have the proof that people are speculating about containers on narrow body aircraft.

The argument that containers do not bring an advantage for the A320family aircraft is therefore ad absurdum.

The containerization of a 737 will be an aftermarket project, whereas the container on the A320 is an established standard. The inwards opening cargo doors is leading to the 737 will always offer fewer container positions and will make it difficult to scrap manual loading altogether.


I was doing a bit of research and this system was initially designed at the request of dedicated freight airlines ordering the 737-800BCF. Airlines like DHL containerize the main deck and want the lower deck containerized as well to help with their cargo sorting operation

I have no doubt that containers help some A320family operators and does bring an advantage. The question in this thread is about KLM and it is hard to know what impact containers would have on their decision


Many European airlines have moved to using the A320 family frames with containers to reduce manpower needs. KLM is operating in Europe.


And your point being?
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frigatebird
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:51 am

According to this article Transavia will operate the 737MAX from 2021: https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... ng-737-max (Dutch only).

Have to say the article is somewhat contradictory, HV's ceo saying they have several options to play with. They will receive 2 more 737-800s in 2019. Beyond that, they could try to aquire second hand 737NG's, but they might as well order the 737MAX in that case. HV won't need permission from KLM to decide on the MAX, and it's not decided KL will also order the MAX, the AF/KL narrowbody decision is still pending.
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IWMBH
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:39 am

How long does it take between ordering a MAX and receiving it? If they want the plane operational in 2021 they can't wait long with ordering it, can they?
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:06 am

frigatebird wrote:
According to this article Transavia will operate the 737MAX from 2021: https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... ng-737-max (Dutch only).

Have to say the article is somewhat contradictory, HV's ceo saying they have several options to play with. They will receive 2 more 737-800s in 2019. Beyond that, they could try to aquire second hand 737NG's, but they might as well order the 737MAX in that case. HV won't need permission from KLM to decide on the MAX, and it's not decided KL will also order the MAX, the AF/KL narrowbody decision is still pending.


I think you switched "Transavia will operate" and "wants to operate". Transavia needs approval for ordering aircraft for Billions. Apart from that, it is very well possible the MAX is the most practical / best solution for Transavia from an overall group standpoint / interest. Regardless of a KLM decision.

I think the 97t A321 NEO range, capacity, cargo options, noise levels, engine choice in combination with its NB direct operating costs, will have the same mouthwatering "let me have it" effect on KLM network/fleet planners as it had most of their colleagues worldwide in recent years.
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Dutchy
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:45 am

keesje wrote:
I think you switched "Transavia will operate" and "wants to operate". Transavia needs approval for ordering aircraft for Billions.


Logic demands indeed that Transavia needs approval from their parent company for such a deal, however:

De beslissing van Transavia om ook met de MAX te gaan vliegen betekent volgens Ten Brink overigens niet dat KLM gelijktijdig op het type overschakelt. Goedkeuring van KLM hoeft Transavia niet te vragen, maar de huidige Boeing 737’s hebben bij beide maatschappijen wel dezelfde specificaties.


This strikes me as odd in the article: permission form KLM isn't needed for such a deal. Not sure if it only refers to the specification (KLM and Transavia's 737 are of the same specifications) or they do not need permission to order them in the first place.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:52 am

Flanker7 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

I was doing a bit of research and this system was initially designed at the request of dedicated freight airlines ordering the 737-800BCF. Airlines like DHL containerize the main deck and want the lower deck containerized as well to help with their cargo sorting operation

I have no doubt that containers help some A320family operators and does bring an advantage. The question in this thread is about KLM and it is hard to know what impact containers would have on their decision


Many European airlines have moved to using the A320 family frames with containers to reduce manpower needs. KLM is operating in Europe.


And your point being?


One has to put it to you very explecit.

European airlines seem to be more interested than USA airlines to reduce manpower in regards to loading aircraft. KLM is competing in Europe against airlines that have reduced manpower by using container on the A320 family.
So my opinion is, that reducing manpower needs by moving over to the A320 family could be a consideration for an airline like KLM.

Did I make myself clear?
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:08 am

Transavia operationally shares aircraft with Sun Country Airlines in the US.

737NG's from both sides are moved over seasonally.

For a long time already, so apparently it's a win-win.

Keeping commonality there would probably be an important consideration too.

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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:40 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Many European airlines have moved to using the A320 family frames with containers to reduce manpower needs. KLM is operating in Europe.


And your point being?


One has to put it to you very explecit.

European airlines seem to be more interested than USA airlines to reduce manpower in regards to loading aircraft. KLM is competing in Europe against airlines that have reduced manpower by using container on the A320 family.
So my opinion is, that reducing manpower needs by moving over to the A320 family could be a consideration for an airline like KLM.

Did I make myself clear?


I didn’t know ALL Airlines in Europe had to reduce manpower by using containers, so I hope you weren’t implying that

Image

Image

Image

Image

Some airlines want containers, some don’t. I am sure KLM will evaluate many factors when deciding what airplane to order next.
 
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keesje
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:20 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:

I didn’t know ALL Airlines in Europe had to reduce manpower by using containers, so I hope you weren’t implying that



? No he didn't. Strawman ?

None the less, legacy network carriers LH, BA, AF, IB, SAS do. Or a combination of bulk & containers.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:32 pm

Could we see some action on Englands upcomming Premiere Air Show
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
VSMUT
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:02 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
KLM has more widebodies than narrowbodies.


I count 99 E-jets and 737s, and 66 widebodies...
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:17 pm

frigatebird wrote:

Jerry123 wrote:
American 767 wrote:

Me neither I don't see why, other than the fact that Air France has a lot of Airbus narrowbodies in its fleet. Likewise one would ask: "Why didn't Air France order NG737s?" The only reason I see why Air France would buy NG 737s is KLM and Transavia have those.

I can see KLM ordering the MAX eventually. What will be interesting is which variants as they operate a fair few 700s and 5 or 6 900s and with Schipol getting more slot restricted i'm wondering if they'll replace the 700s with MAX 8s and the 900s with MAX 10s. With Air France i think politically they probably have to have a large Airbus fleet and it makes sense to make that the short haul side. Will be interesting to see if they order the C Series now it's effectively an Airbus jet.

Replacing the 700s with larger variants is possible, even though these are fairly young it appears 4 of them will be replaced by newly leased 800s. The 900s have little resale value so these will probably stay as long as economically viable. The oldest 738s may very well be replaced by MAX-10s.


Regarding KL's 737-700's, latest rumor is that ALL 18 KL -700s will be phased out between 2019 and 2022, to be replaced by a larger variant (said to be -800s). Main reason I believe is that the unions have demanded a 4th FA on all 737-700s, which would make the 737-700 not economical to operate anymore. Source is the cabin crew unions' web magazine.
Where the other 14 larger 737s will come from is unknown. First 4 will be new ones and leased.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:39 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:

And your point being?


One has to put it to you very explecit.

European airlines seem to be more interested than USA airlines to reduce manpower in regards to loading aircraft. KLM is competing in Europe against airlines that have reduced manpower by using container on the A320 family.
So my opinion is, that reducing manpower needs by moving over to the A320 family could be a consideration for an airline like KLM.

Did I make myself clear?


I didn’t know ALL Airlines in Europe had to reduce manpower by using containers, so I hope you weren’t implying that


Where did I say all airlines in Europe use containers? Are you purposefully misreading an argument? Scraping up some photos of A320 being bulk loaded does not change the argument, especially as you do not seem to care about the age of some of those those pictures.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:12 pm

frigatebird wrote:
frigatebird wrote:

Jerry123 wrote:
I can see KLM ordering the MAX eventually. What will be interesting is which variants as they operate a fair few 700s and 5 or 6 900s and with Schipol getting more slot restricted i'm wondering if they'll replace the 700s with MAX 8s and the 900s with MAX 10s. With Air France i think politically they probably have to have a large Airbus fleet and it makes sense to make that the short haul side. Will be interesting to see if they order the C Series now it's effectively an Airbus jet.

Replacing the 700s with larger variants is possible, even though these are fairly young it appears 4 of them will be replaced by newly leased 800s. The 900s have little resale value so these will probably stay as long as economically viable. The oldest 738s may very well be replaced by MAX-10s.


Regarding KL's 737-700's, latest rumor is that ALL 18 KL -700s will be phased out between 2019 and 2022, to be replaced by a larger variant (said to be -800s). Main reason I believe is that the unions have demanded a 4th FA on all 737-700s, which would make the 737-700 not economical to operate anymore. Source is the cabin crew unions' web magazine.
Where the other 14 larger 737s will come from is unknown. First 4 will be new ones and leased.


Do you have a source? And if this is true, why buy -800's when you can order the MAX?
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Will KLM ever order a Narrow Body Airbus?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:09 pm

IWMBH wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
frigatebird wrote:


Replacing the 700s with larger variants is possible, even though these are fairly young it appears 4 of them will be replaced by newly leased 800s. The 900s have little resale value so these will probably stay as long as economically viable. The oldest 738s may very well be replaced by MAX-10s.


Regarding KL's 737-700's, latest rumor is that ALL 18 KL -700s will be phased out between 2019 and 2022, to be replaced by a larger variant (said to be -800s). Main reason I believe is that the unions have demanded a 4th FA on all 737-700s, which would make the 737-700 not economical to operate anymore. Source is the cabin crew unions' web magazine.
Where the other 14 larger 737s will come from is unknown. First 4 will be new ones and leased.


Do you have a source? And if this is true, why buy -800's when you can order the MAX?


Here you are (in Dutch): https://www.fnvcabine.nl/1324-klm-vnc-d ... art-gegaan

As to why the -800 instead of the MAX-8, I can only assume there are no production slots or aircraft available on lease on this short term. But I agree it's strange to invest in the NG when there are already lots of MAX in operation. Especially when your home base is AMS, where noise is a big issue. Investing in the MAX would be strong argument against the groups opposed to aviation expansion in The Netherlands.

And to keep everyone happy here: yes, investing in the neo would be just as strong an argument :white:
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