mjoelnir
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Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:49 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -f-449263/

Quote:
The US Federal Aviation Administration is pushing back on a request by Boeing for a temporary exemption from a safety regulation to allow the GE Aviation-powered version version of the 787-10 to enter service on schedule in August.

It seems to be a continuation of the icing connected problems on the GEnx. The software fix could be ready in Q1 2019. Delivery of GEnx powered 787-10 could be delayed.
The fix should be included in a software roll out B200 scheduled for December 2019.

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2175301
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:32 pm

A certain amount of back and fourth on exemption request is fairly standard; and it's likely both sides have reasonable cases and concerns.

Here is my projection on how this will play out: Boeing will be able to justify a short term exemption; and GE will roll out a limited software change 1st quarter 2019 to address this issue; with a later upgrade end of 2019 or early 2020.

Have a great day,
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:48 pm

Gosh whats up with engine manufacturers these days?!
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JamesCousins
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:23 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh whats up with engine manufacturers these days?!


Isn't it because we're at the end of a major engine design architecture. AKA engine manufacturers are trying to extrapolate as much performer as possible from an older platform, which can cause issues..?
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Slash787
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:27 pm

So no Etihad B787-10 in 2018?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:37 pm

What a poorly worded article title from Flight Global, I expect better from them.
 
nikeherc
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:37 pm

Please note that the same engines are currently in service on the 787-8 and 787-9. This is not a new problem. It will be resolved. My prediction is that Etihad will be flying their -10s on time or nearly so.
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Runway28L
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:40 pm

UA likely won’t be pleased to hear about this, as they are an early GEnx customer for the 78J.

More delays for their rollout of Polaris...
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Tedd
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:07 am

nikeherc wrote:
Please note that the same engines are currently in service on the 787-8 and 787-9. This is not a new problem. It will be resolved. My prediction is that Etihad will be flying their -10s on time or nearly so.


We`ve been told by informed members many times these icing issues haven`t been fully addressed even after all this time
which is curious to me, in that it points to a fundamental design weakness or problem which GE haven`t got to grips with.
Whatever it is I think you are correct, since all parties have been able to work around the issue all these years,, so I don`t
see how -10 will make matters worse.
 
ap305
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:43 am

G.E has handled the pr aspect of it's issues rather well- the leap for example has had more than it's share of teething issues but we do not hear about as much as the Pratt problems. Pratt and Rolls need to learn from this.
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Arion640
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:09 am

Runway28L wrote:
UA likely won’t be pleased to hear about this, as they are an early GEnx customer for the 78J.

More delays for their rollout of Polaris...


Also be quite ironic if BA gets RR powered 78J's before UA gets its GE ones.

Unlikley though as I think they're due for BA in the second half of 19.
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:22 am

ikolkyo wrote:
What a poorly worded article title from Flight Global, I expect better from them.


I read it. Explain how exactly is the wording "poor"? Is it because it's bad news for boeing? Kudos to FAA for not giving in to their demands. Safety first!
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Tristarsteve
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:50 am

I read it. Explain how exactly is the wording "poor"? Is it because it's bad news for boeing? Kudos to FAA for not giving in to their demands. Safety first!


I agree, poor wording. For a technical journal the phrase *pushes back* is not correct. 'Safety flaw' is not much better.
It is written in US English for a low class web site. Not very technical at all.
How does the FAA push back at Boeing? Do they use a broom?
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:03 pm

Nothing to see here folks. It's only Airbus & RR that have (safety) issues. FAA is just making a token protest for show and will let Boeing have its way shortly. In the fullness of time i.e. according to their original schedule GE will fix the icing issue.
 
Blockplus
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 pm

It is an ici issue that is a software fix to allow the variable guide vanes to stay open in climb power upto fl350, where as of now, they only do in cruise power.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:17 pm

So, exception is typed and signed.
 
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Bjm0517
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:12 pm

Oh jeez, the 787s been through enough already! Fix your engines, please and hope for no more issues :crossfingers:
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:23 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh whats up with engine manufacturers these days?!


Isn't it because we're at the end of a major engine design architecture. AKA engine manufacturers are trying to extrapolate as much performer as possible from an older platform, which can cause issues..?


No, not really. The GEnx is a third-generation evolution of the GE90 core that was a clean-sheet design in the 1990s. By industry standards, that architecture is by no means "old."

The question for me is why are the GEnx engines suffering core icing when the previous convention suggested icing was rare above 20,000 feet. I think a comprehensive anaylsis would lead to two evaluations: a.) either something is different about the GEnx engine mechanics or b.) something is different about the GEnx flight operations versus previous GE90 heritage engines. Setting aside "a" for a moment, I do think there is a case that both 747-8 and 787 models are cruising at higher altitudes >40,000 feet with more statistical frequency than their predecessors. So maybe this has always been a remote risk for all engines, but not enough flights were operating in a regime where the issue would be encountered.
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Revelation
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:36 pm

ap305 wrote:
G.E has handled the pr aspect of it's issues rather well- the leap for example has had more than it's share of teething issues but we do not hear about as much as the Pratt problems. Pratt and Rolls need to learn from this.

RR and Pratt have had the issue that when their problems arise, pax see parts being ejected out of the back of the engine, and the engine needs a rebuild. The icing issues have had some IFSDs but none as dramatic as the RR and Pratt ones, therefore less of a challenge for the PR team.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:51 pm

Icing has troubled the GEnx from the start. A engine stopping to operate because icing conditions due to a software bug and than having problem to restart, seems hardly a minor issue to me. What if two engines stop and the pilot is not able to restart both of them? The FAA waiting foe a fix, instead of allowing an exemption seems to me reasonable. Perhaps GE should fix the icing problems, instead proving fixes to get around it.
 
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zeke
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
RR and Pratt have had the issue that when their problems arise, pax see parts being ejected out of the back of the engine, and the engine needs a rebuild. The icing issues have had some IFSDs but none as dramatic as the RR and Pratt ones, therefore less of a challenge for the PR team.


You need something more dramatic than this ?

http://avherald.com/h?article=46679ba1
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Revelation
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:32 pm

zeke wrote:
Revelation wrote:
RR and Pratt have had the issue that when their problems arise, pax see parts being ejected out of the back of the engine, and the engine needs a rebuild. The icing issues have had some IFSDs but none as dramatic as the RR and Pratt ones, therefore less of a challenge for the PR team.


You need something more dramatic than this ?

http://avherald.com/h?article=46679ba1

No, definitely not.

GE was lucky from a PR standpoint that these 2013 incidents happened with 747-8Fs with four engines rather than two engined 787s loaded with pax.

In today's media environment if a 787 loaded with pax lost both engines it would get instant world wide attention.
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zeke
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:42 pm

Royal Brunei had a double engine failure on departure from MNL. Got next to zero coverage.
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MrHMSH
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:49 pm

zeke wrote:
Royal Brunei had a double engine failure on departure from MNL. Got next to zero coverage.


BI's 788s are RR-powered, so perhaps that's a 'good' thing...
 
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Revelation
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:52 pm

zeke wrote:
Royal Brunei had a double engine failure on departure from MNL. Got next to zero coverage.

Interesting. Link is:

https://avherald.com/h?article=48e23329

It's an RR equipped aircraft and it symptoms sound like the corrosion problem, but the date suggests this would be a very early incident.

As you said, even now there's very little coverage available.

A.net thread viewtopic.php?t=597119 had zero replies.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:48 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
What a poorly worded article title from Flight Global, I expect better from them.


I read it. Explain how exactly is the wording "poor"? Is it because it's bad news for boeing? Kudos to FAA for not giving in to their demands. Safety first!


Title makes it sound like there is an actual issue with the aircraft rather than the engine which is all on GE.
 
mham001
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:45 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
What a poorly worded article title from Flight Global, I expect better from them.


I read it. Explain how exactly is the wording "poor"? Is it because it's bad news for boeing? Kudos to FAA for not giving in to their demands. Safety first!


He is right, it is mis-worded. The entire article is difficult to read. Every sentence being its own paragraph doesn't help, neither does the editing... "GE is working to fix the software bug, but the GEnx-1B-powered version of the 787-10 cannot obtain an airworthiness certificate without an exemption until it is ready."
 
StTim
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:51 pm

mham001 wrote:
... "GE is working to fix the software bug, but the GEnx-1B-powered version of the 787-10 cannot obtain an airworthiness certificate without an exemption until it is ready."



To me they "may" have a software solution but this is really fixing the symptom and not the real underlying cause. I ma not surprised they are not resolving the cause as I suspect that is a major redesign. Do we know if anything like that has been done as part of the new engines for the 777X?
 
2175301
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:58 pm

zeke wrote:
Royal Brunei had a double engine failure on departure from MNL. Got next to zero coverage.


Actually, it was a single engine failure. After landing the 2nd engine was found to have similar internal degradation/damage. However, the 2nd engine did not fail... It was removed from service before it could fail.

Have a great day,
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:38 pm

It is not right to say the GEnx works on the 787-8 and 787-9 why not give an exception for the 787-10. The 787-10 has a higher thrust version of the GEnx, the GEnx-1B76, it is not identical, especially regarding the software, to the engines on the 787-8 and 787-9.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:41 pm

Presumably the FAA isn't comfortable with the rate of progress to-date achieving a permanent solution. No more temporary approvals until we see a definitive timetable and action. And a warning - don't be surprised if the same happens with the 777X.

Same happens with financing. For example, customer temporarily breaching financial or reporting covenants, on a regular basis. Five aircraft delivered - five to go. Customer warned (and manufacturer too), there could be delays to next drawdown / settlement. If you wait until the 10th delivered, much less power to influence behaviour change.

Never permit ongoing exceptions where money and safety are compromised, unless comfortable creating new de facto standards.
 
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par13del
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:46 pm

So we can expect all 787's to be grounded until RR and GE fix their problems, how about all the NEO's and MAX's which also have problems?
 
RB211trent
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:21 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
I read it. Explain how exactly is the wording "poor"? Is it because it's bad news for boeing? Kudos to FAA for not giving in to their demands. Safety first!


I agree, poor wording. For a technical journal the phrase *pushes back* is not correct. 'Safety flaw' is not much better.
It is written in US English for a low class web site. Not very technical at all.
How does the FAA push back at Boeing? Do they use a broom?


If it’s not a “safety flaw” then what is it? The article is accurate, just because you don’t like the wording for some reason does not mean it’s not correct.
 
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zeke
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:13 am

2175301 wrote:

Actually, it was a single engine failure. After landing the 2nd engine was found to have similar internal degradation/damage. However, the 2nd engine did not fail... It was removed from service before it could fail.,


The second engine had failed due to the blade damage. If I recall correctly HPT blades had failed and were missing.

after it was discovered the event officially became the first 787 accident.
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iamlucky13
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Re: Trouble with the GEnx on the 787-10

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:00 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh whats up with engine manufacturers these days?!


These days? Haven't most engines historically had a variety of issues in their early years? Every new design pushes the envelop further.

Yet I can think of only two clearly engine related crashes in the last decade (British Airways Flight 38 - no fatalities, thankfully; Transasia 235). I do grant at least that there have also been several close calls that could very well have led to crashes but for the level of redundancy and efforts to isolate critical systems from failures in other systems in modern airliners. Qantas Flight 32 is probably the best example.

Just one example of many past engine issues I'm sure I could dig up if I took the time, even accounting for the fact that older news is a lot harder to find online than current news:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ms-124501/

(Off topic - Google has gotten progressively searching for older information over time. It used to be pretty reliable about not exceeding the date filter if you used one, but lately it seems like half the hits I get are newer than the date filter. So I'll also rhetorically ask what's up with internet search providers these days?)

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