Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4768
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:33 am

lightsaber wrote:
Asturias wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:

Seriously, anyone saying "only minor damage" after seeing that video should probably also go through an "assessment" like the plane.


I agree. The fire seems to have eaten through the fusalage, underneath the cockpit.It's pretty obvious in this video:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6498786/f ... t-updated/

The ash, the heat, the water and foam has definitely caused intense local damage. That's not minor damage, nor is it a question of a "few days" in tech/ops to repair. This could take weeks or more to repair, if it will *ever* be repaired.

I believe the decision will be left to the insurance and LH.

There is some cost to scrap at FRA (vs. a profit flown out). I believe the damage is less than the insured residual value, so likely the insurance company will offer to repair. Will LH or will they negotiate for a transfer of funds? I don't know. It will depend on the damage. It will depend on LH's timeline for continued A343 operation. It will depend on how well LH calculates the economics.

We're in a widebody glut. It might be more economical to purchase a used A333?

Lightsaber

I agree with the last statement. They might not have a choice re scrapping it at FRA. The cost to make it flyable anywhere else would destroy any parts profit margin.

Fire damage to avionics, structure and possibly hydraulics in the gear bay. Smoke damage to cockpit and cabin. Water and foam damage everywhere. 18 years as a LH aircraft means close to 90,000 hours on her. I would not be surprised to see her cut up where she is.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 491
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:37 am

stylo777 wrote:
Is there a technician inside the cockpit during those ground positionings, e.g. for atc communication or application of breaks, etc.??


No, as this was a lifter-tug, there is no real chance of it getting loose, and the tug also provides the beacon as well as all ATC communications (talking on a different frequency by the way to keep the actual frequency open, but keeping listenig watch on it). So no "brake-riders".
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20562
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:58 am

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Asturias wrote:

I agree. The fire seems to have eaten through the fusalage, underneath the cockpit.It's pretty obvious in this video:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6498786/f ... t-updated/

The ash, the heat, the water and foam has definitely caused intense local damage. That's not minor damage, nor is it a question of a "few days" in tech/ops to repair. This could take weeks or more to repair, if it will *ever* be repaired.

I believe the decision will be left to the insurance and LH.

There is some cost to scrap at FRA (vs. a profit flown out). I believe the damage is less than the insured residual value, so likely the insurance company will offer to repair. Will LH or will they negotiate for a transfer of funds? I don't know. It will depend on the damage. It will depend on LH's timeline for continued A343 operation. It will depend on how well LH calculates the economics.

We're in a widebody glut. It might be more economical to purchase a used A333?

Lightsaber

I agree with the last statement. They might not have a choice re scrapping it at FRA. The cost to make it flyable anywhere else would destroy any parts profit margin.

Fire damage to avionics, structure and possibly hydraulics in the gear bay. Smoke damage to cockpit and cabin. Water and foam damage everywhere. 18 years as a LH aircraft means close to 90,000 hours on her. I would not be surprised to see her cut up where she is.

I agree there is a good chance LH just takes the money and accept the costs. Does LH own the engines? They are easy to remove and that is over half the value of the airframe. Although I suspect the specific variant parts are not worth what they once were (supply vs. demand on the used market).

Spend a day or two taking out the interior.
A few days to remove landing gear, actuators, and other mechanical stuff of value (avionics are literally toast).
Then a day or two with heavy earth moving equipment to put it into lorries for transit to a site that can take care of the big parts.


Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:03 am

Given that the blue book value for an A340-300 is only $5 Million, this plane will be done. Insurance will cover this, Ignoring the structural damage, replacing all the electronics in the flight deck alone would easily exceed $5 Million. $5 Million doesn’t buy you much in the aviation world when it comes to repairs or components

The question is whether the insurance payout is from Lufthansa or the ground handling / tug operator. Or perhaps they are the same company.
 
User avatar
hongkongflyer
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:23 am

Re: LH A340 on fire in FRA now

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:14 am

AIRT0M wrote:
placeholder wrote:
Gonna be interesting to see, if it was in fact D-AIGV which was scheduled on LH482 to Tampa later on, what Bird will substitute for it.

I wouldnt hold my hopes up high to see her flying again, the Damage looks pretty substantial on the Nose section even though that Bird is fairly young with just over 18 Years.


According to LH the damaged plane was the D-AIFA and it was supposed to fly to PHL today. They plan to put it back in service 'within days'.


May I ask how can it return to services within days?

Image
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:17 am

The question is, was there someone in the flight deck? It doesnt look like there was.
When towing, someone normally needs to be in the flight deck, if only to take over if the tow truck's radio fails...
In this case, such person could have dropped a few halon fire extinguishers down a slide too for ground crews to catch and use. The reaction would have been much faster and effective and the fire department could have been there much sooner too.

So yeah, insurance could cover a part, but they will be asking thousands of questions as to why the GSE caught fire and why there was nobody in the flight deck.
 
cpd
Posts: 6547
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:31 am

Do any of these tugs have their own fire supression equipment? Something like a racing car has a fire supression system that can be activated if needed. It might have saved this A340.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:33 am

cpd wrote:
Do any of these tugs have their own fire supression equipment? Something like a racing car has a fire supression system that can be activated if needed. It might have saved this A340.


They do have the portable standard ABC ones if properly equipped.
 
cpd
Posts: 6547
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:52 am

Waterbomber wrote:
cpd wrote:
Do any of these tugs have their own fire supression equipment? Something like a racing car has a fire supression system that can be activated if needed. It might have saved this A340.


They do have the portable standard ABC ones if properly equipped.


I was more thinking of the built in systems that spray into the engine bay, perhaps with the portable one as a backup.
 
FatCat
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:40 am

IMHO the most quick action that LH can make is taking one A346 out of storage, they're already in LH interiors and livery.
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
slcguy
Posts: 421
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:21 am

Not sure this video has been posted earlier in the thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvjHCrop6G0
Obviously judging by the hole and the way framework is hanging down there is no way this aircraft will fly again. This is the head of the aircraft, avionics bay, cockpit, nose wheel well and most of the lower structure ahead of the L/R1 doors. At least the rest of the aircraft is undamaged so lots of parts to be salvaged, easy call for the insurance company.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9422
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:26 am

slcguy wrote:
Not sure this video has been posted earlier in the thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvjHCrop6G0
Obviously judging by the hole and the way framework is hanging down there is no way this aircraft will fly again.


doesn't the Airbus way of assembling aircraft provide for fully plugged interconnections between sections?
i.e. just replace the cockpit section :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
SGSnow
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:48 am

Re: LH A340 on fire in FRA now

Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:54 am

juliuswong wrote:
Hopefully the damage isn't bad.

The Singapore Airlines B777-212ER 9V-SQK suffered same fate last year. It was written off recently after in storage for more than seven months. SQ first non-accident related write off, if I'm not mistaken.


Yes it's been written off a while back already.
SQ aircraft model collector.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:58 am

Waterbomber wrote:
The question is, was there someone in the flight deck? It doesnt look like there was.
When towing, someone normally needs to be in the flight deck, if only to take over if the tow truck's radio fails...
In this case, such person could have dropped a few halon fire extinguishers down a slide too for ground crews to catch and use. The reaction would have been much faster and effective and the fire department could have been there much sooner too.

So yeah, insurance could cover a part, but they will be asking thousands of questions as to why the GSE caught fire and why there was nobody in the flight deck.


I think that just might have happened I see some ground crew trying to put out the fire, but it seems an unequal battle. They can't even come close enough to fight the source. A crash tender was needed to provide the quantity to quickly drown this fire.

Image

First they tried, saw it made no sense, evacuated the place for the firetrucks to put it out.
By then damage was already done, a few minutes of close, intense fire burn through thin
aircraft skin.Metals absorb heat very well.

https://youtu.be/wId8RSu3Ofw

I like the group of students (?) walking by on the platform.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AIRT0M
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:54 am

Re: LH A340 on fire in FRA now

Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:09 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:
placeholder wrote:
Gonna be interesting to see, if it was in fact D-AIGV which was scheduled on LH482 to Tampa later on, what Bird will substitute for it.

I wouldnt hold my hopes up high to see her flying again, the Damage looks pretty substantial on the Nose section even though that Bird is fairly young with just over 18 Years.


According to LH the damaged plane was the D-AIFA and it was supposed to fly to PHL today. They plan to put it back in service 'within days'.


May I ask how can it return to services within days?

Image


Ask Lufthansa. It's what Lufthansa officially said shortly after the fire. Obviously somebody did not have the full picture...
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:37 am

This one took 6 months.
Image

18 months..
Image

12 months
Image

My previous 6 months estimation for this nose job apparently is way to optimistic.. Replacing forward sections by new / used ones would probably be easiest, but we're most probably looking at a write-off
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:17 am

keesje wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
The question is, was there someone in the flight deck? It doesnt look like there was.
When towing, someone normally needs to be in the flight deck, if only to take over if the tow truck's radio fails...
In this case, such person could have dropped a few halon fire extinguishers down a slide too for ground crews to catch and use. The reaction would have been much faster and effective and the fire department could have been there much sooner too.

So yeah, insurance could cover a part, but they will be asking thousands of questions as to why the GSE caught fire and why there was nobody in the flight deck.


I think that just might have happened I see some ground crew trying to put out the fire, but it seems an unequal battle. They can't even come close enough to fight the source. A crash tender was needed to provide the quantity to quickly drown this fire.

Image

First they tried, saw it made no sense, evacuated the place for the firetrucks to put it out.
By then damage was already done, a few minutes of close, intense fire burn through thin
aircraft skin.Metals absorb heat very well.

https://youtu.be/wId8RSu3Ofw

I like the group of students (?) walking by on the platform.



On the apron, you have those big red fire extinguishers on wheels about everywhere. I believe that they are foam extinguishers in most cases.
In one of the video's you can see the ground crews pulling one of those to the aircaft and attempting to extinguish.
Unfortunately, the fire is already too big because it took them forever to roll that thing in and the extinguishing agent was applied on the flames rather than at the base, ...

Halon is very effective on starting fires. But most effective is calling the fire engines asap, they could roll in quite quickly and in the meanwhile you can attempt to fight with bottles of halon. On an A340, you would have like a dozen of them aboard, most often in a box below the last rows of seats and below the cabin crew seats.
Quoting the AMM (for info only):
. General
The portable fire extinguishers are installed in the aircraft for use if an
on-board fire occurs. They are installed in positions which have easy
access, and are kept fully prepared for immediate use.
2 . Component Location
(Ref. Fig. 001)
3 . Component Description
A. Portable Fire Extinguisher - Halon Agent
(Ref. Fig. 002)
The portable fire extinguisher is filled with halon 1211 agent and is
pressurized with nitrogen. It can be used to extinguish B and C classes
of fire. The portable fire extinguisher has two primary components:
- A cylindrical container assembly
- A valve assembly.


In any case, whether the tug is one of those nose-gear raising things or you work with a tow bar, you always need someone in the flight deck.
If the tug's brakes stop working, someone needs to apply brakes. If the radio is broken, the flight deck's radio man needs to take over.

In a high stress situation it's not easy to make the right decisions, but that's why there is training and procedures.
 
FatCat
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:26 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Halon is very effective on starting fires.


Are Halon extinguishers still a thing?
Weren't all retired because of the ozone hole thingy?
They are very effective indeed
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15338
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:55 am

First of all, this fire started from the 'tug', apparently a significant leak of oil, fuel or other combustible liquid hitting the engine or its exhaust. Whoever owns or operates the tug will have its insurance pay toward the loss. As noted by others, this is a plane model of very low residual value, well below the costs to repair it, is over 15 years old, doesn't have any particular special value, and LH has others in storage of a similar model that may need only $1 Million or less to put back into service so this one will be scrapped.
 
User avatar
Heavierthanair
Posts: 954
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:20 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:16 am

G'day

Clearly, duct tape and buffing will not do the job here. :talktothehand:

But snap on the front section of one of those A345's or A346's due for scrapping, apply a fresh layer of paint, load the relevant software and the vessel is good for another 10 years of service :bigthumbsup:

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
cpd
Posts: 6547
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:26 am

ltbewr wrote:
First of all, this fire started from the 'tug', apparently a significant leak of oil, fuel or other combustible liquid hitting the engine or its exhaust. Whoever owns or operates the tug will have its insurance pay toward the loss. As noted by others, this is a plane model of very low residual value, well below the costs to repair it, is over 15 years old, doesn't have any particular special value, and LH has others in storage of a similar model that may need only $1 Million or less to put back into service so this one will be scrapped.


According to reports, the tug was from Lufthansa Engineering and Operational Services GmbH, a 100-percent subsidiary of Lufthansa Technik AG (that last bit from the LH LEOS website).

It's just inexcusable for something like a tug fire to result in what looks like the total loss of an aircraft. Those things should have fire suppression systems built into them that will activate and put out a fire like this as it is starting, before it becomes so large that it engulfs the plane it is towing. You hit the switch and it activates the system.

These ground crew trying to battle what looks like an almighty inferno from afar seems pretty pointless.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1409
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:34 am

Was this plane even actively being pulled at the time? The cell phone videos from the fire show no one near by.
 
User avatar
Carlos01
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:52 am

Re: LH A340 on fire in FRA now

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:36 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
May I ask how can it return to services within days?

Image


Actually looking at the picture, I would bet that also the cockpit floor must have suffered very intensive heat damage, maybe even penetrated by the flames. Looking through the L1 door, the cabin trolleys might actually appear to be a little charred, at least the ones in the middle. So it could well be that the "smoke damage to cockpit and cabin" was in fact a burned hole in the cockpit floor, and the damage is not just smoke, but also heat, ash, and flames?

I would be very curious to see a picture from the cockpit door.

In any case, I don't see any way how this thing could be repaired, unless they really take off the entire nose and manage to replace it with one from the desert or somewhere else. And to get that connected without missing any wires and hydraulics... well yeah, there are people who luckily get paid for doing that calculation.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:15 pm

Any word from Lufthansa about this incident and the consequences for the fleet? Maybe A346 will return to service?
 
FatCat
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: LH A340 on fire in FRA now

Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:06 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
Actually looking at the picture, I would bet that also the cockpit floor must have suffered very intensive heat damage, maybe even penetrated by the flames. Looking through the L1 door, the cabin trolleys might actually appear to be a little charred, at least the ones in the middle. So it could well be that the "smoke damage to cockpit and cabin" was in fact a burned hole in the cockpit floor, and the damage is not just smoke, but also heat, ash, and flames?

I would be very curious to see a picture from the cockpit door.

In any case, I don't see any way how this thing could be repaired, unless they really take off the entire nose and manage to replace it with one from the desert or somewhere else. And to get that connected without missing any wires and hydraulics... well yeah, there are people who luckily get paid for doing that calculation.

Also note the missing window.
Flames and heat came inside from there, too.
It's easy to damage wirings, breakers, switches, CRT / TFT...
Not seeing this 18 years young bird flying again anytime soon...
It will be curious how she will be dismantled in FRA anyway.
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
stylo777
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:11 pm

everybody is talking about the possible reactivation of an A346 from the desert but is it really required? I don't assume their longhaul schedule is as tight and squeezed as one would think. At the end of the day, their combined 343 fleet (mainline/cityline) has to cover flights to following destinations which might as well be operated by 333 or 744 on interim basis:
ATL BKK BOG CPT MAA NGO NKG PHL PTY SAN SHE SJC SJO TAO TPA YUL
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:13 pm

cpd wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
First of all, this fire started from the 'tug', apparently a significant leak of oil, fuel or other combustible liquid hitting the engine or its exhaust. Whoever owns or operates the tug will have its insurance pay toward the loss. As noted by others, this is a plane model of very low residual value, well below the costs to repair it, is over 15 years old, doesn't have any particular special value, and LH has others in storage of a similar model that may need only $1 Million or less to put back into service so this one will be scrapped.


According to reports, the tug was from Lufthansa Engineering and Operational Services GmbH, a 100-percent subsidiary of Lufthansa Technik AG (that last bit from the LH LEOS website).

It's just inexcusable for something like a tug fire to result in what looks like the total loss of an aircraft. Those things should have fire suppression systems built into them that will activate and put out a fire like this as it is starting, before it becomes so large that it engulfs the plane it is towing. You hit the switch and it activates the system.

These ground crew trying to battle what looks like an almighty inferno from afar seems pretty pointless.


Agree, here. Something went wrong and there might be more to it in terms of safety procedures / redundancy. LH was lucky, this aircraft was empty and old but it could have been new & full of passengers with the same tug an hour earlier.

I'm assuming some network shuffling with A333s, A346s, A350's are already covering the gab. LH has the size to be flexible.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FatCat
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:17 pm

stylo777 wrote:
everybody is talking about the possible reactivation of an A346 from the desert but is it really required? I don't assume their longhaul schedule is as tight and squeezed as one would think. At the end of the day, their combined 343 fleet (mainline/cityline) has to cover flights to following destinations which might as well be operated by 333 or 744 on interim basis:
ATL BKK BOG CPT MAA NGO NKG PHL PTY SAN SHE SJC SJO TAO TPA YUL

It is required because everyone here wants to see an A346 flying again! 8-)
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
4engines4lnghll
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:25 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:33 pm

How sad... I flew this *A bird many times between DFW-FRA.
4engines4lnghll
 
FlyingLaw1
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:05 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:23 pm

4engines4lnghll wrote:
How sad... I flew this *A bird many times between DFW-FRA.


I live in Southwest Missouri. I've watcher her cruise by many times while operating FRA-DFW. Sad indeed :(
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:26 pm

Nice way to get some insurance money on a A340.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2649
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:54 pm

FatCat wrote:
IMHO the most quick action that LH can make is taking one A346 out of storage, they're already in LH interiors and livery.


It's a different model than the airline is using. It uses totally different engines and is larger than the A343.
 
goosebayguy
Posts: 710
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:12 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:02 pm

Tow truck insurance must cost a fortune because when things go wrong the claims run into millions.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:23 pm

BobMUC wrote:
keesje wrote:
Was it a battery fire?


My bet would be an oil leak/fire at the truck. The intense of the fire looked more like coming from a liquid.


That's the kind of fire you get on a diesel motor when a fuel injector hose breaks ... airborne sprayed fuel right next to manifolds is rarely, if ever, a good thing.

Same type of fire they had on Carnival Triumph (albeit on a much more massive scale).

It's instant blowtorch worthy hot sooty flames.
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:26 pm

FatCat wrote:
It is required because everyone here wants to see an A346 flying again! 8-)


We'll always have IB...
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:27 pm

EgyptAir's 777, with the cockpit oxygen fire, had a similar burn-thru (except on the cockpit side, instead of underneath) ... it was scrapped.

That amount of heat, wire, and avionics damage, almost requires a complete nose replacement forward of the doors. The cost of the parts + labor, that's a good chunk of change to fix it.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:10 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
In any case, whether the tug is one of those nose-gear raising things or you work with a tow bar, you always need someone in the flight deck.
If the tug's brakes stop working, someone needs to apply brakes. If the radio is broken, the flight deck's radio man needs to take over.

In a high stress situation it's not easy to make the right decisions, but that's why there is training and procedures.


That's not entirely correct. There are NAAs/airports/airlines who allow single-man push-back and towing. I've no idea if LH in FRA is one of them, but suspect it might be the case. Single-man operation is only allowed using TBL type tractors, and it's the standard at my home airport. Been so for more than 10 years, incident free.
Signature. You just read one.
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:32 pm

FatCat wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Halon is very effective on starting fires.


Are Halon extinguishers still a thing?
Weren't all retired because of the ozone hole thingy?
They are very effective indeed


I think they are still allowed in aircraft and possibly some other high-profile uses. They are very effective in closed spaces (actually not only on starting fires depending on the amount of space and ventilation), not so much in the open. The halon agent acts like a reverse catalyzer in that it inhibits the oxidization process, which is generating the actual heat. If sprayed in the open in a case like this, it would have had limited effect and only until it was blown away by the wind. Also, if oil or diesel is dripping onto an exhaust pipe or other hot surface, there is little you can do but supress the fire until the fire trucks arrive. I’d focus on saving the powder to have supression a bit longer instead of blowing it away in one go trying to extinguish the fire altogether since that is likely to fail anyway. Been there, done that (car, not tug).
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:47 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
In any case, whether the tug is one of those nose-gear raising things or you work with a tow bar, you always need someone in the flight deck.
If the tug's brakes stop working, someone needs to apply brakes. If the radio is broken, the flight deck's radio man needs to take over.

In a high stress situation it's not easy to make the right decisions, but that's why there is training and procedures.


That's not entirely correct. There are NAAs/airports/airlines who allow single-man push-back and towing. I've no idea if LH in FRA is one of them, but suspect it might be the case. Single-man operation is only allowed using TBL type tractors, and it's the standard at my home airport. Been so for more than 10 years, incident free.


Yes they allow it at many airlines but it's stupid and poor risk management.
There should always be someone in the flight deck trained to use the brakes, the radio and other basic functions no matter what type of tractor you use.
This accident is evidence enough.

I will give you one more reason though that rules this procedure completely out from a safety standpoint.
An aircraft being towed needs to flash its beacon lights. This means that the aircraft is at least operating under battery power and should hence have an operator in the flight deck.
You can go accidentless for 50 years but the one time it happens you will end up with a higher cost than the money you saved throughout those years.
End of story.


Halon is also effective in open spaces. It's used as extinguishing agent for aircraft engine fire too and considering the massive airflow in there, one could argue that it's much more challenging than static air in open spaces.
There is a reason why they are recycling it despite the high cost due to the total ban on halon production.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:05 am

According to RIZJETS.NET D-AFIA has been written off. So unfortunately it is now a pile of spare parts. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
69bug
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:32 am

With regards to repairing this aircraft, LH has rebuilt a write-off before.

In the mid/late 70s D-ABYU (freighter) went off the runway at HKG Kai Tak. The engines were ripped off and the E and E compartment was crushed by the nosewheel folding back. The maindeck floor was also damaged by the nose being pulled back.

This was an insurance write-off but LH bought the remains and re-built it with Boeings help. The reason they took this step was there was a long wait for a new B74F and the costs would have worked out about the same.

The difference between these two incident is that the B74F at that time was an airplane highly in demand, the A340 nowadays is not really as desirable and another aircraft can probably be found if they really need one.

bug
 
HHScot
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:11 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:39 am

Revelation wrote:

People at AirportTugs.Net must be pretty upset.
.


No, they're too busy debating why it's a disaster that the latest tug is painted just in white and doesn't have any yellow on it anymore!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20562
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:49 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
According to RIZJETS.NET D-AFIA has been written off. So unfortunately it is now a pile of spare parts. :old:

Bummer, but not a shock. I thought there might be a chance, but if the cost to repair is high... it is a right off.

69bug wrote:
With regards to repairing this aircraft, LH has rebuilt a write-off before.

But today, repairing an 18 year A343 does not have a business case. LH could buy a used A333 or some other alternative far cheaper (e.g., D-check on an A346 if required).

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
hongkongflyer
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:23 am

Re: LH A340 on fire in FRA now

Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:09 am

AIRT0M wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:

According to LH the damaged plane was the D-AIFA and it was supposed to fly to PHL today. They plan to put it back in service 'within days'.


May I ask how can it return to services within days?

Image


Ask Lufthansa. It's what Lufthansa officially said shortly after the fire. Obviously somebody did not have the full picture...


Everybody are responsible for what they post in the forum. You are the one who post the comment, not LH.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:24 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Yes they allow it at many airlines but it's stupid and poor risk management.
There should always be someone in the flight deck trained to use the brakes, the radio and other basic functions no matter what type of tractor you use.
This accident is evidence enough.


That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it. However, as one of the persons who did the risk assessment, I have to object to the use of the word 'stupid'. As I mentioned, it's been carried out for more than 10 years incident free, and there's nothing in this incident to suggest a person in the flight deck would have made any difference. As for working the radio 'and other basic functions', that can all be done from the tractor.

Waterbomber wrote:
I will give you one more reason though that rules this procedure completely out from a safety standpoint.
An aircraft being towed needs to flash its beacon lights. This means that the aircraft is at least operating under battery power and should hence have an operator in the flight deck.


No, not necessarily. The tractors used for towing at 'my' airport, are fitted with an internal GPU which you connect to the aircraft. That means the aircraft is not under battery power, but rather using an external source.

Seems to me you've formed an opinion without being in possession of all the facts. Granted, that's pretty much par for the course on this board, but that doesn't make it correct.
Signature. You just read one.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:34 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Yes they allow it at many airlines but it's stupid and poor risk management.
There should always be someone in the flight deck trained to use the brakes, the radio and other basic functions no matter what type of tractor you use.
This accident is evidence enough.


That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it. However, as one of the persons who did the risk assessment, I have to object to the use of the word 'stupid'. As I mentioned, it's been carried out for more than 10 years incident free, and there's nothing in this incident to suggest a person in the flight deck would have made any difference. As for working the radio 'and other basic functions', that can all be done from the tractor.

I can't share the original risk assessment with you, as it company property. But I can redo it for you; it'll take around 5 hours and I charge EUR 200/hour for consultancy work.

Waterbomber wrote:
I will give you one more reason though that rules this procedure completely out from a safety standpoint.
An aircraft being towed needs to flash its beacon lights. This means that the aircraft is at least operating under battery power and should hence have an operator in the flight deck.


No, not necessarily. The tractors used for towing at 'my' airport, are fitted with an internal GPU which you connect to the aircraft. That means the aircraft is not under battery power, but rather using an external source.

Seems to me you've formed an opinion without being in possession of all the facts. Granted, that's pretty much par for the course on this board, but that doesn't make it correct.
Signature. You just read one.
 
69bug
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:19 am

Not sure what a guy in the cockpit could have done in this case .. the tug-driver is in contact with ground control so they would definitely be aware of the fire and send help.

bug
 
factsonly
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:29 am

69bug wrote:
With regards to repairing this aircraft, LH has rebuilt a write-off before.

In the mid/late 70s D-ABYU (freighter) went off the runway at HKG Kai Tak. The engines were ripped off and the E and E compartment was crushed by the nosewheel folding back. The maindeck floor was also damaged by the nose being pulled back.


 
FatCat
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:57 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
FatCat wrote:
IMHO the most quick action that LH can make is taking one A346 out of storage, they're already in LH interiors and livery.


It's a different model than the airline is using. It uses totally different engines and is larger than the A343.

And it's also way longer! :white:
Currently ( correct me if I'm wrong ) LH's A436s on storage are:

D-AIHE
D-AIHM
D-AIHN
D-AIHO
D-AIHP
D-AIHQ
D-AIHR
D-AIHS

Hotel Echo was in service some 10 days ago. Also Hotel Oscar, Mike and November were in service not long ago.
Hotel Sierra is in some sort of longer storage, if you look in FR24 her photo is mothballed, in the desert.
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: LH A340 damaged by pushback tug fire at FRA

Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:24 am

FatCat wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
FatCat wrote:
IMHO the most quick action that LH can make is taking one A346 out of storage, they're already in LH interiors and livery.


It's a different model than the airline is using. It uses totally different engines and is larger than the A343.

And it's also way longer! :white:
Currently ( correct me if I'm wrong ) LH's A436s on storage are:

D-AIHE
D-AIHM
D-AIHN
D-AIHO
D-AIHP
D-AIHQ
D-AIHR
D-AIHS

Hotel Echo was in service some 10 days ago. Also Hotel Oscar, Mike and November were in service not long ago.
Hotel Sierra is in some sort of longer storage, if you look in FR24 her photo is mothballed, in the desert.

Some of these are slated for parting out if I am not mistaken. It would be good if one of them can be spared the axeman for some time.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos