Flying-Tiger
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Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:03 am

328 Support, owner of the type certificates of the 328 Turboprop and 328Jet, intends to re-start production of the 30 seaters in light of there being no other competitors being in production nowadays, a steadily ageing fleet of EMB-120, DH8-100/200, 328/328Jet, ERJ-135 and SF340 and demand still being there, both from airlines and public customers.

Decision is expected for later this year with the airports in Bremen and in Leipzig being considered for the manufacturing site.

In my option they have a fair chance to get back into the market. It won´t be large volume orders as we know form the B737 / A320, but as with the Do-228NG, Twin Otter 400 etc two or three planes here and there, or "large ones" such as a fleet replacement at Sun-Air or REX.

Probably we´ll hear more about it in Farnborough.
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated, mo source provided so far, hence rumor
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Samrnpage
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:15 am

They will need upgrades though - the 328s are aging planes with old technology. I dont think this will happen.
 
Rbgso
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:26 am

While I am skeptical, I would love to see it happen. I always liked the high wing look of the 328 and BA146.

Does ownership of the type certificate allow them to restart production with less regulatory approvals?
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:47 am

Samrnpage wrote:
They will need upgrades though - the 328s are aging planes with old technology. I dont think this will happen.


What?

Check your facts again. Do-328 is more modern, lighter and faster design than any ATR or Dash. Its near-jet speed wasn't matched until Q400 came around. It was the best turboprop at its time, killed by RJs - the same fate was met by SAAB-2000. Absolutely amazing piece of metal and one of the best looking T-tailed propliners, ever.
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LifelinerOne
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:04 pm

In 2015 the owner of 328 Support, Sierra Nevada Company, also tried to restart production. They announced their plans during that year's Paris Air Show. The idea back then was to partner up with Turkish engineering company STM and create a whole new family of jets, even up to 60-70 passengers.

In 2005 there was also an attempt to restart production and they actually did, but this ended quite soon after a few months after the new owner of the Do328 type certifcate, AvCraft, went bust.

So, I'm not seeing why it would be successful this time. This could turn into a new Rekkof-story... :duck:

Cheers! :wave:
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cheapgreek
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:05 pm

Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:08 pm

I'm still waiting for the Fokker 100 to get back into production. Very excited. Can't be long now... ;)
 
c933103
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:10 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
In 2015 the owner of 328 Support, Sierra Nevada Company, also tried to restart production. They announced their plans during that year's Paris Air Show. The idea back then was to partner up with Turkish engineering company STM and create a whole new family of jets, even up to 60-70 passengers.

In 2005 there was also an attempt to restart production and they actually did, but this ended quite soon after a few months after the new owner of the Do328 type certifcate, AvCraft, went bust.

So, I'm not seeing why it would be successful this time. This could turn into a new Rekkof-story... :duck:

Cheers! :wave:

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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:11 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.

How about currently <19 seats market?
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PlymSpotter
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:41 pm

Thing is, the trip costs of a Do328 are practically the same as the ATR 42-600, whilst the latter offers a bunch of extra seats.

I question the market size here for a warmed over design.
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:53 pm

c933103 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.

How about currently <19 seats market?

Those that rely on the <19 seat market can’t afford new jets. That is the trouble with the market. A ~70 seat prop does not cost that much more to design and build over a 19 seater. But the market is much much larger.
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:05 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
They will need upgrades though - the 328s are aging planes with old technology. I dont think this will happen.


Don´t think this is question by anyone - technology certainly has moved further, and a lot of systems can or need to be updated. However, as the type certificate holder 328 Support Services should have all this readily available for support of the currentl fleet(s) anyway.

PlymSpotter wrote:
Thing is, the trip costs of a Do328 are practically the same as the ATR 42-600, whilst the latter offers a bunch of extra seats.

I question the market size here for a warmed over design.


Well, REX is operating 50+ SF340, Sun-Air 15 328Jet. I think there is a market available - the actual size is the question, both on the commercial as well on the public side. Plus the purchase (and lease rate) are different: the ATR 42-600 sells for about 20 million USD list price, the Dornier 328 sold at around 8 million USD list price in the 90ties, so about 12 million USD in today´s dollars. On the financing side that´s a huge delta.

Will certainly depending on how it´s going to be priced, too.
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:22 pm

Polot wrote:
c933103 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.

How about currently <19 seats market?

Those that rely on the <19 seat market can’t afford new jets. That is the trouble with the market. A ~70 seat prop does not cost that much more to design and build over a 19 seater. But the market is much much larger.

I think the < 19 seat market needs to rethink the approach. First, go to a single engine (saves weight, maintenance, and costs). A high CFRP wing should be able to be made much cheaper than a 70 seater.

But a bigger issue will be pilot costs. Requiring an ATP for this small of an aircraft is a cost barrier.

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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:48 pm

It's because of low acquisition costs that Rex and Sun-Air have large 340 and 328 fleets, they probably would have bought Q400s or ATR-42s if they could.
Plus, the acquisition cost of the 328 might be lower but with the ATR-42 you know you can easily sell the aircraft, expand with bigger family members etc. Horizon Air and ACA regretted buying 328s and having an orphan fleet with little support and second hand appeal after Dornier went bankrupt. Nowadays you have Sierra Nevada but in 2002 there were few takers.
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iceberg210
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:53 pm

I always thought a 30 and 50 seater family might just have a chance in the market again (there just is nothing there competitive) I had somewhat pinned my hopes on a EMB120NG or something but really glad to hear the 328 might have another lease on life! The question I have is what will power it? If you pulled some weight off it and didn't worry about speed as much could you use the 1600 hp GE Catalyst over the old PW119's( or get GE to coax some more power out. The 20% better fuel economy and easier maintinance could go a good way to making a size airplane like that more economical.

If I were them I'd try to launch the 328 and 328 jet along with launching the 428 and 428 jet. I think a family might be vital to the survival of the airframe, and in areas where a CRJ200 just is the right size, a ore economical 50 seater prop might be the only thing you could make pencil to replace RJ's on those markets. Look forward to seeing more information soon and here's to hoping we actually get a new smallish prop in production again soon!
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:55 pm

well, as small RJs go (or went) I found the 328jet the most comfortable though the single (A) aisle exit row seat of the ERj-135 is not too bad either :-)
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:59 pm

What is the short field performance of the DO328 compared to the DHC 8-100?
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:59 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I think the < 19 seat market needs to rethink the approach. First, go to a single engine (saves weight, maintenance, and costs). A high CFRP wing should be able to be made much cheaper than a 70 seater.

But a bigger issue will be pilot costs. Requiring an ATP for this small of an aircraft is a cost barrier.

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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:02 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.


There's a lot of remote places on this planet where either a > 50 seater is complete overkill or where the airstrip itself can't handle an aircraft of that size.
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Polot wrote:
c933103 wrote:
How about currently <19 seats market?

Those that rely on the <19 seat market can’t afford new jets. That is the trouble with the market. A ~70 seat prop does not cost that much more to design and build over a 19 seater. But the market is much much larger.

I think the < 19 seat market needs to rethink the approach. First, go to a single engine (saves weight, maintenance, and costs). A high CFRP wing should be able to be made much cheaper than a 70 seater.

But a bigger issue will be pilot costs. Requiring an ATP for this small of an aircraft is a cost barrier.

Lightsaber


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I’m curious to see what happens in the global market in this space once 9K (Cape Air) starts receiving their order of 100 of the model early next year.

Grant the project for 9K to acquire the type has taken so long I was starting to suspect that it was dead in the water. However many sources, including their own in-flight magazine from when I flew with them home for Thanksgiving last year (BOS - LEB), say otherwise.

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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:49 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.


There's a lot of remote places on this planet where either a > 50 seater is complete overkill or where the airstrip itself can't handle an aircraft of that size.


Airlines are not interested in planes under 50 seats and even some of those are being parked. Look at what airlines are ordering, RJ's 70 seats and higher, the CRJ-200 has been out of production for some time and the E-145 has few if any orders.

The days of very small cities having commercial service is gone. Two airports that lost commuter flights over the years were Groton,Ct and Bridgeport,Ct. There many other small airports without airline service as the economy makes it unprofitable. The EAS program is being cut as it is foolish to fly a plane with less than 10 passengers. Its a waste of 2 crew members to fly such a small number of passengers when they could move many more people and turn a profit. Ask yourself, if you were running an airline, would you commit to small planes that would lose money or buy larger ones to fill routes that can make money?
As far as remote places, air travel is not a right for every town, people move into these areas knowing full well air service is not a local option.
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:51 pm

Polot wrote:
c933103 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.

How about currently <19 seats market?

Those that rely on the <19 seat market can’t afford new jets. That is the trouble with the market. A ~70 seat prop does not cost that much more to design and build over a 19 seater. But the market is much much larger.


The idea is that perhaps one could compete with a manufacturer like Viking Air, which manufacturers new Dash 6s, and other OEMs which zero-time old Dash 6s. The idea is whether or not this can be stretched to compete with the ATR42/72 and Dash 8-Q400, and the upcoming Cessna 408 (which will be first manufactured as a cargo plane for FedEx).
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:11 pm

There are many airlines out there that still operate and rely on aircraft in this size and capacity. Some others have upgraded to the ATR42 not through any desire, more through a lack of choice in the modern day market. In Europe Wideroe and Loganair are both looking to replace their Dash 8-100s and 200s/Saab 340s with similar sized aircraft..Loganair is looking at the ATR, while Wideroe were holding hopes that Viking might start up a Q200 line again (they love them!).

Upgrading to larger aircraft doesn't always work in such remote locations, and with such short runways. Some new 328s would be amazing, but they would need to work on the fuel efficiency..high speed comes at a price..
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:20 pm

There may be a need for a 30 seat, high performance turboprop globally. But it is not a scheduled airline need. It would be some other transportation or ownership sector.
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:58 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
There are many airlines out there that still operate and rely on aircraft in this size and capacity. Some others have upgraded to the ATR42 not through any desire, more through a lack of choice in the modern day market. In Europe Wideroe and Loganair are both looking to replace their Dash 8-100s and 200s/Saab 340s with similar sized aircraft..Loganair is looking at the ATR, while Wideroe were holding hopes that Viking might start up a Q200 line again (they love them!).

Upgrading to larger aircraft doesn't always work in such remote locations, and with such short runways. Some new 328s would be amazing, but they would need to work on the fuel efficiency..high speed comes at a price..


In the USA, small props are not a hot item. Saab's, Dash-8's, Beech 1900's, EMB110 & 130's, etc are all gone. From a financial viewpoint, they do not generate income and the number of connecting passengers they carry does not cover operating expenses. Even mainline planes are being ordered with more seats than those 10 years ago, the 737-600 and A318 are history and the A319 is a slow seller and Boeing enlarged the 737-7 to meet customer demand. Airlines are having a hard time getting new pilots and to use them on such low volume flights does not make good business sense. The new normal is a move to larger RJ's and halting service to small airports with low ridership. Airlines have no interest in flying to small outposts in Montana, the Dakota's, Idaho, etc.
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:09 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
There's a lot of remote places on this planet where either a > 50 seater is complete overkill or where the airstrip itself can't handle an aircraft of that size.


This is true; however, for those markets, new aircraft have to compete with inexpensive used aircraft, and the lower fuel expenses of a new aircraft are often dwarfed by much higher capital costs. Also, the number of those remote places is gradually dwindling as ground transportation options are improved; i.e. the long, slow decline of traffic at many EAS airports in the U.S.

The other question is whether the total available market is large enough to pay for a new aircraft program. The proposed Do328 restart does help avoid much of the development cost, but low-volume aircraft assembly is expensive, which will add to the challenge of competing with used frames or misusing more widely available larger aircraft.
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:26 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.


There's a lot of remote places on this planet where either a > 50 seater is complete overkill or where the airstrip itself can't handle an aircraft of that size.


Airlines are not interested in planes under 50 seats and even some of those are being parked. Look at what airlines are ordering, RJ's 70 seats and higher, the CRJ-200 has been out of production for some time and the E-145 has few if any orders.

The days of very small cities having commercial service is gone. Two airports that lost commuter flights over the years were Groton,Ct and Bridgeport,Ct. There many other small airports without airline service as the economy makes it unprofitable. The EAS program is being cut as it is foolish to fly a plane with less than 10 passengers. Its a waste of 2 crew members to fly such a small number of passengers when they could move many more people and turn a profit. Ask yourself, if you were running an airline, would you commit to small planes that would lose money or buy larger ones to fill routes that can make money?
As far as remote places, air travel is not a right for every town, people move into these areas knowing full well air service is not a local option.

Like ANA/JAL are going for aircrafts like ATR42 and Q400Combi to fill the demand on <50 seat market.
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:27 pm

ScottB wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
There's a lot of remote places on this planet where either a > 50 seater is complete overkill or where the airstrip itself can't handle an aircraft of that size.


This is true; however, for those markets, new aircraft have to compete with inexpensive used aircraft, and the lower fuel expenses of a new aircraft are often dwarfed by much higher capital costs. Also, the number of those remote places is gradually dwindling as ground transportation options are improved; i.e. the long, slow decline of traffic at many EAS airports in the U.S.

The other question is whether the total available market is large enough to pay for a new aircraft program. The proposed Do328 restart does help avoid much of the development cost, but low-volume aircraft assembly is expensive, which will add to the challenge of competing with used frames or misusing more widely available larger aircraft.

But what happen after they retires?
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:39 pm

It won´t be interesting as an airliner, but as a special mission aircraft or biz jet. The 328Jet is great for miedical evacuation / transportation, offering more interior space, easier loading of patients for operating costs of the level of a similar sized conventional biz jet. The prop version is used for government work like SAR / maritime patrol and so on.
 
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:01 pm

Not to go off topic but there is a new clean sheet 19 seater in development by Cessna scheduled to fly next year. But the issue is many airlines simply don't care about serving small communities due to financial reasons. Now is it possible that major advances in battery technology and electric hybrid propulsion could produce a small regional aircraft with game changing economics ? Sure, but that is still some way off.

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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:24 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
Dominion301 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Its not going to go anywhere. With the pilot shortage and the move by airlines for regional planes with more than 50 seats, the days of 19-37 seats are over.


There's a lot of remote places on this planet where either a > 50 seater is complete overkill or where the airstrip itself can't handle an aircraft of that size.

These airlines generally can’t sfford brand new airplanes.
 
cheapgreek
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:54 pm

c933103 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

There's a lot of remote places on this planet where either a > 50 seater is complete overkill or where the airstrip itself can't handle an aircraft of that size.


Airlines are not interested in planes under 50 seats and even some of those are being parked. Look at what airlines are ordering, RJ's 70 seats and higher, the CRJ-200 has been out of production for some time and the E-145 has few if any orders.

The days of very small cities having commercial service is gone. Two airports that lost commuter flights over the years were Groton,Ct and Bridgeport,Ct. There many other small airports without airline service as the economy makes it unprofitable. The EAS program is being cut as it is foolish to fly a plane with less than 10 passengers. Its a waste of 2 crew members to fly such a small number of passengers when they could move many more people and turn a profit. Ask yourself, if you were running an airline, would you commit to small planes that would lose money or buy larger ones to fill routes that can make money?
As far as remote places, air travel is not a right for every town, people move into these areas knowing full well air service is not a local option.

Like ANA/JAL are going for aircrafts like ATR42 and Q400Combi to fill the demand on <50 seat market.


As I said in my second post, in the USA props are out but they seem to have some life left in other parts of the world. I took a flight on a Dash-8-300 a shot time ago and flying on those makes one feel like a second class traveler, noise,vibration, rough ride and unable to fly above bad weather, once people fly on RJ's, there's no going back. Just my observations after taking many dozens of flights on mostly Dash-8's and a few Beech 1900's. The Q400 has not done well in the USA and the ATR's cannot seem to get a foot in the door.
 
c933103
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:53 am

cheapgreek wrote:
c933103 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:

Airlines are not interested in planes under 50 seats and even some of those are being parked. Look at what airlines are ordering, RJ's 70 seats and higher, the CRJ-200 has been out of production for some time and the E-145 has few if any orders.

The days of very small cities having commercial service is gone. Two airports that lost commuter flights over the years were Groton,Ct and Bridgeport,Ct. There many other small airports without airline service as the economy makes it unprofitable. The EAS program is being cut as it is foolish to fly a plane with less than 10 passengers. Its a waste of 2 crew members to fly such a small number of passengers when they could move many more people and turn a profit. Ask yourself, if you were running an airline, would you commit to small planes that would lose money or buy larger ones to fill routes that can make money?
As far as remote places, air travel is not a right for every town, people move into these areas knowing full well air service is not a local option.

Like ANA/JAL are going for aircrafts like ATR42 and Q400Combi to fill the demand on <50 seat market.


As I said in my second post, in the USA props are out but they seem to have some life left in other parts of the world. I took a flight on a Dash-8-300 a shot time ago and flying on those makes one feel like a second class traveler, noise,vibration, rough ride and unable to fly above bad weather, once people fly on RJ's, there's no going back. Just my observations after taking many dozens of flights on mostly Dash-8's and a few Beech 1900's. The Q400 has not done well in the USA and the ATR's cannot seem to get a foot in the door.

Well good thing that Do328 have jet version for American
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:47 am

cheapgreek wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
There are many airlines out there that still operate and rely on aircraft in this size and capacity. Some others have upgraded to the ATR42 not through any desire, more through a lack of choice in the modern day market. In Europe Wideroe and Loganair are both looking to replace their Dash 8-100s and 200s/Saab 340s with similar sized aircraft..Loganair is looking at the ATR, while Wideroe were holding hopes that Viking might start up a Q200 line again (they love them!).

Upgrading to larger aircraft doesn't always work in such remote locations, and with such short runways. Some new 328s would be amazing, but they would need to work on the fuel efficiency..high speed comes at a price..


In the USA, small props are not a hot item. Saab's, Dash-8's, Beech 1900's, EMB110 & 130's, etc are all gone. From a financial viewpoint, they do not generate income and the number of connecting passengers they carry does not cover operating expenses. Even mainline planes are being ordered with more seats than those 10 years ago, the 737-600 and A318 are history and the A319 is a slow seller and Boeing enlarged the 737-7 to meet customer demand. Airlines are having a hard time getting new pilots and to use them on such low volume flights does not make good business sense. The new normal is a move to larger RJ's and halting service to small airports with low ridership. Airlines have no interest in flying to small outposts in Montana, the Dakota's, Idaho, etc.


Indeed, in the mainland 48 the only major prop airline i can think of is Silver Air, who have also upgraded from the Saab to ATR, again as there is no other choice out there. In remote parts of Alaska, Scotland, Norway, and many other places in the world, the routes covered by the old S340s and Q100/200s are essential services to remote towns and Islands, many of them with very short runways, and in Norway's case surrounded by difficult terrain..upgrading to a larger and heavier aircraft is simply not possible for many reasons. Some of these locations won't have the same road network you'll find in the States, and generally the flights are short hops, where props are more favourable. I flew on a Wideroe milk run 2 years ago, logging about 17 flights with them in 2 days- the shortest flight being 7 minutes.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:05 am

Though I had expected some more details to emerge last week during the Farnborough Air Show the only piece of information I was able to find is this:

The German company (Chalet B14, Outside Exhibit 35), a subsidiary of U.S.-based Sierra Nevada Corp., has been attempting to relaunch production. An MoU signed in 2015 with the Transportation Ministry of Turkey for that purpose was canceled in 2017, but plans to build a new, stretch version of the 328 in Germany appear on track, Brown said.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aerospace/2018-07-17/328-support-highlights-dornier-conversions#
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Samrnpage
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:22 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
They will need upgrades though - the 328s are aging planes with old technology. I dont think this will happen.


What?

Check your facts again. Do-328 is more modern, lighter and faster design than any ATR or Dash. Its near-jet speed wasn't matched until Q400 came around. It was the best turboprop at its time, killed by RJs - the same fate was met by SAAB-2000. Absolutely amazing piece of metal and one of the best looking T-tailed propliners, ever.


Ok it might fly fast but its still a 25 year old design.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:35 am

The word that will kill it stone dead? Support.

The market may well be for small numbers in multiple orders, but the lack of support will put buyers off. What good is a new Dorner 328 in Africa or South America if it goes tech and then there is a huge wait for spares, costing the operator contracts and money?

If anything, Cessna would be the ideal manufacturer. Cessna do parts and support literally everywhere on the globe. The small number of sales the Dornier might generate would not even scratch the cost of setting up proper support.
 
c933103
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:07 am

LifelinerOne wrote:
In 2015 the owner of 328 Support, Sierra Nevada Company, also tried to restart production. They announced their plans during that year's Paris Air Show. The idea back then was to partner up with Turkish engineering company STM and create a whole new family of jets, even up to 60-70 passengers.

In 2005 there was also an attempt to restart production and they actually did, but this ended quite soon after a few months after the new owner of the Do328 type certifcate, AvCraft, went bust.

So, I'm not seeing why it would be successful this time. This could turn into a new Rekkof-story... :duck:

Cheers! :wave:

It was just some months ago that the TRJ plan confirmed to be failure. I think they're probably preparing for this by themselves immediately after they confirmed that the Turkish cooperation is to be a failure
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
c933103
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:12 am

Channex757 wrote:
The word that will kill it stone dead? Support.

The market may well be for small numbers in multiple orders, but the lack of support will put buyers off. What good is a new Dorner 328 in Africa or South America if it goes tech and then there is a huge wait for spares, costing the operator contracts and money?

If anything, Cessna would be the ideal manufacturer. Cessna do parts and support literally everywhere on the globe. The small number of sales the Dornier might generate would not even scratch the cost of setting up proper support.

What? There are already numerous Dornier 328 operators in Africa, why would new buyers be any different?
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c933103
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:13 am

Samrnpage wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
They will need upgrades though - the 328s are aging planes with old technology. I dont think this will happen.


What?

Check your facts again. Do-328 is more modern, lighter and faster design than any ATR or Dash. Its near-jet speed wasn't matched until Q400 came around. It was the best turboprop at its time, killed by RJs - the same fate was met by SAAB-2000. Absolutely amazing piece of metal and one of the best looking T-tailed propliners, ever.


Ok it might fly fast but its still a 25 year old design.

How many years old is the ATR42, its current sole competitor?
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terrificturk
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:55 am

Samrnpage wrote:
Ok it might fly fast but its still a 25 year old design.


Your nonsensical excuses do not become any better. The designs of the Dash8 and ATR are both from the early 80s, so the Do328 is a decade younger in design.
MRO people can also tell you that the built quality of the Do328 - esp. the corrosion protection and structural integrity - is far superior, setting standars in teh industry that are hard to beat.
Dornier were also the first to design and build a fully composite pressure bulkhead, a feature that all 328s have (including the tail and fin section. This was later taken on by Airbus and the pressure bulkheads for the 320 Family are still today produced at teh original Dornier facility.
Both ATR, Dash 8 and S340 had old style cockpits, while the 328 started out with the Honeywell Primus2000.

These and many other aspects are the reasons why many corporate operators still use this aircraft successfully and profitably.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:05 am

c933103 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
The word that will kill it stone dead? Support.

The market may well be for small numbers in multiple orders, but the lack of support will put buyers off. What good is a new Dorner 328 in Africa or South America if it goes tech and then there is a huge wait for spares, costing the operator contracts and money?

If anything, Cessna would be the ideal manufacturer. Cessna do parts and support literally everywhere on the globe. The small number of sales the Dornier might generate would not even scratch the cost of setting up proper support.

What? There are already numerous Dornier 328 operators in Africa, why would new buyers be any different?

It doesn't work like that.

Existing Dornier users will have come through the bankruptcy and many will have stockpiled parts. New users will need to consider how hard it might be to operate with distant support. Just because others are flying older aircraft does not mean they will be parts donors for new aircraft. If (for instance) an undercarriage part breaks on landing, and the aircraft is in Tanzania, how easy will it be to get both a qualified mechanic as well as the relevant parts to the plane, and how long will it take?
 
c933103
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:28 am

Channex757 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
The word that will kill it stone dead? Support.

The market may well be for small numbers in multiple orders, but the lack of support will put buyers off. What good is a new Dorner 328 in Africa or South America if it goes tech and then there is a huge wait for spares, costing the operator contracts and money?

If anything, Cessna would be the ideal manufacturer. Cessna do parts and support literally everywhere on the globe. The small number of sales the Dornier might generate would not even scratch the cost of setting up proper support.

What? There are already numerous Dornier 328 operators in Africa, why would new buyers be any different?

It doesn't work like that.

Existing Dornier users will have come through the bankruptcy and many will have stockpiled parts. New users will need to consider how hard it might be to operate with distant support. Just because others are flying older aircraft does not mean they will be parts donors for new aircraft. If (for instance) an undercarriage part breaks on landing, and the aircraft is in Tanzania, how easy will it be to get both a qualified mechanic as well as the relevant parts to the plane, and how long will it take?

Nowadays the company do provide global support? Admittedly I know nothing about their service level at Africa but those installed user base should allow them to know more than zero about it
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stratocruiser
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:41 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
They will need upgrades though - the 328s are aging planes with old technology. I dont think this will happen.


Don´t think this is question by anyone - technology certainly has moved further, and a lot of systems can or need to be updated. However, as the type certificate holder 328 Support Services should have all this readily available for support of the currentl fleet(s) anyway.

PlymSpotter wrote:
Thing is, the trip costs of a Do328 are practically the same as the ATR 42-600, whilst the latter offers a bunch of extra seats.

I question the market size here for a warmed over design.


Well, REX is operating 50+ SF340, Sun-Air 15 328Jet. I think there is a market available - the actual size is the question, both on the commercial as well on the public side. Plus the purchase (and lease rate) are different: the ATR 42-600 sells for about 20 million USD list price, the Dornier 328 sold at around 8 million USD list price in the 90ties, so about 12 million USD in today´s dollars. On the financing side that´s a huge delta.

Will certainly depending on how it´s going to be priced, too.


I agree there could be a niche market, though limited, out there for a 30-33 seat turboprop like the Do328 if it can be competitively priced against the ATR-42 but operating economics would probably also be a major consideration for most airlines. Unlike the turboprop, I don’t however see a place for a rejuvenated 328Jet.
 
c933103
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Re: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:58 pm

stratocruiser wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
They will need upgrades though - the 328s are aging planes with old technology. I dont think this will happen.


Don´t think this is question by anyone - technology certainly has moved further, and a lot of systems can or need to be updated. However, as the type certificate holder 328 Support Services should have all this readily available for support of the currentl fleet(s) anyway.

PlymSpotter wrote:
Thing is, the trip costs of a Do328 are practically the same as the ATR 42-600, whilst the latter offers a bunch of extra seats.

I question the market size here for a warmed over design.


Well, REX is operating 50+ SF340, Sun-Air 15 328Jet. I think there is a market available - the actual size is the question, both on the commercial as well on the public side. Plus the purchase (and lease rate) are different: the ATR 42-600 sells for about 20 million USD list price, the Dornier 328 sold at around 8 million USD list price in the 90ties, so about 12 million USD in today´s dollars. On the financing side that´s a huge delta.

Will certainly depending on how it´s going to be priced, too.


I agree there could be a niche market, though limited, out there for a 30-33 seat turboprop like the Do328 if it can be competitively priced against the ATR-42 but operating economics would probably also be a major consideration for most airlines. Unlike the turboprop, I don’t however see a place for a rejuvenated 328Jet.

If someone is comparing the offer against ATR42 then they would already accepted the possibility of using a prop and thus the non-jet Do328 would fit them better. A 328Jet might be able to be deployed on CR1/CR2/ERJ135/140/145 routes with low load factors that cannot justify upgauge to CR7?
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:24 pm

The 328Jet failed once, I don’t know why one would expect it to be successful in a relaunch. Turning an aircraft and wing designed for a turboprop into a jet unsurprisingly results in a pretty crappy jet.
 
Okie
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:30 pm

Polot wrote:
The 328Jet failed once, I don’t know why one would expect it to be successful in a relaunch. Turning an aircraft and wing designed for a turboprop into a jet unsurprisingly results in a pretty crappy jet.

Exactly.

Takes a lot of additional thrust, as in fuel usage, to push a straight wing aircraft at swept wing jet speeds.
328Jet has bankrupt more than one company that has tried to operate the type in commercial service.

Okie
 
drdisque
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:01 pm

The 328Jet's demand is as a corporate shuttle. It just makes a much nicer shuttle than a used up E-135. Ultimate and Key Lime love theirs. It can also provide an aircraft with a Gulfstream V or Falcon 900 size cabin at a much lower price point for folks who don't need the range of the Gulfstream or Falcon.

Note that the 328Jet doesn't fly at swept wing jet speeds. Typical cruise speeds are only ~350 kts, just a little faster than the prop. Note that it also typically cruises between FL220 and FL290, below most jets (largely in order to stay out of their way, it is capable of flying higher)
 
iceberg210
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Re: Rumor: Dornier 328/328Jet to be back in manufacturing

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:23 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Though I had expected some more details to emerge last week during the Farnborough Air Show the only piece of information I was able to find is this:

The German company (Chalet B14, Outside Exhibit 35), a subsidiary of U.S.-based Sierra Nevada Corp., has been attempting to relaunch production. An MoU signed in 2015 with the Transportation Ministry of Turkey for that purpose was canceled in 2017, but plans to build a new, stretch version of the 328 in Germany appear on track, Brown said.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aerospace/2018-07-17/328-support-highlights-dornier-conversions#

This is really interesting. I'm wondering if it's a 428 based stretch (44 passengers) I would think they'd try and using slimline seats and closer than the standard (at the time) 31 " Pitch squeeze two more rows in to get to 50. If they could I actually think a 50 seater advanced prop could be a very interesting plane for the market. CRJ's and ERJ's aren't going to fly forever and for those markets that can't upgrade to a CRJ700 but could also fit into current scope (which looks like it won't be relaxed anytime soon) there might just be a niche there. The question I have is what would power it. I've theorized that maybe you could shoehorn the new GE Catalyst onto the 328, but even that's pushing what you think GE could either do in terms of HP increase, or what the 328 could take in HP downgrade, so the 50 seater would be probably looking at current generation engines which can't help it's economics.

I think they'd be smart to launch both a 328 and 428 turboprop, the 328 trying to go after the Dash 8 100 200 market for folks like Wideroe etc, and also special ops (When they tried to restart the production via Turkey they got an order from Singapore if I remember correctly for 5 from Sentinel Aerospace) where the 428 focuses on 50 seater RJ replacement and also beating the ATR42 in that space.

Is it enough to make a go of restrating production? Who knows, but it'd be great to finally see after over a decade of threads theorizing that a 20-50 seater prop has to be just around the corner, for it to finally happen.
Erik Berg
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