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FA9295
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:47 am

chrisnh wrote:
He really said THIS? “I doubt we’ll have a single route with competition.” Well that’s just ‘milk-out-the-nose’ funny. :lol:

Sounds like Allegiant's business model.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:15 am

jfklganyc wrote:
I read the link above. Great article.

Frankly, I wouldnt give him a dime as an investor despite his record.

This airline sounds like a step too far for him; one project too many.

It is a weak business plan wrapped in “technology” and “apps.”

When I was reading it, all I kept thinking was Express Jet (branded ops) II.

I'm the opposite. The more I find out, the more interesting Moxie is. I started imagining a decent app, one even Better than Delta's and I'd use it. Buy what you want to pay for.

Allegiant's business plan is quite robust. This is a mix of Allegiant, JetBlue, Azul and some Ryanair. But use the technology to ensure a customer knows what they are paying for.

My favorite airline is JetBlue, but Delta's app is far more functional (I removed the JetBlue app, too many notifications from too many apps). If the app is well done and allows great trip planning... Excellent!

The fact everything will be through the app is a risk. Mitigated bt by low cost A220-300s.

Now I live near LAX. So I suspect Moxie will be a more East coast and Midwest option.

For JetBlue's first six years they were very innovative. After Neeleman left, not as much, but still a great airline.

Neememan:
Morris
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Azul (added TAP)

Now the new airline.
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impilot
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:27 am

jfklganyc wrote:
I read the link above. Great article.

Frankly, I wouldnt give him a dime as an investor despite his record.

This airline sounds like a step too far for him; one project too many.

It is a weak business plan wrapped in “technology” and “apps.”

When I was reading it, all I kept thinking was Express Jet (branded ops) II.


I’m sure you wouldn’t have given him a dime for jetblue in 2001, 2002, or any other year for that matter.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:19 am

While I'm a skeptic by nature, I assume much of the actual business plan is still under wraps. At least based on what's been publicly said, it sounds like he's treating technology (the app, the A220, etc.) less as a means towards the business plan and more as the business plan itself and I know Neeleman's too smart to make that kind of mistake.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:14 pm

impilot wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
I read the link above. Great article.

Frankly, I wouldnt give him a dime as an investor despite his record.

This airline sounds like a step too far for him; one project too many.

It is a weak business plan wrapped in “technology” and “apps.”

When I was reading it, all I kept thinking was Express Jet (branded ops) II.


I’m sure you wouldn’t have given him a dime for jetblue in 2001, 2002, or any other year for that matter.



Wrong. I was a kid but he actually stole my idea :)

Kennedy airport was wide open for no reason. Biggest mistake WN ever made.

I do think, operationally, it’s a good thing that he left B6. He has vision but he’s not a day-to-day guy
 
yyztpa
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:42 am

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
While I'm a skeptic by nature, I assume much of the actual business plan is still under wraps. At least based on what's been publicly said, it sounds like he's treating technology (the app, the A220, etc.) less as a means towards the business plan and more as the business plan itself and I know Neeleman's too smart to make that kind of mistake.

Plus it's not likely he would show his cards on the business plan at this stage. Everything he says to this point is smoke and mirrors.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:16 am

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
While I'm a skeptic by nature, I assume much of the actual business plan is still under wraps. At least based on what's been publicly said, it sounds like he's treating technology (the app, the A220, etc.) less as a means towards the business plan and more as the business plan itself and I know Neeleman's too smart to make that kind of mistake.

What % of an airline's cost is sales and customer service? If you can keep distribution fees as margin and avoid as many expensive employees as possible, that might be a significant advantage in the marketplace if direct operating costs are similar to competitors.
 
JHwk
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:29 am

KD5MDK wrote:
What % of an airline's cost is sales and customer service? If you can keep distribution fees as margin and avoid as many expensive employees as possible, that might be a significant advantage in the marketplace if direct operating costs are similar to competitors.

Looking at Delta's 10Q, the obvious numbers come out to 8-10%; I would have thought that it would be closer to 10-15% though. The number is roughly equal to aircraft rent and depreciation, and equal comparable to operating margin. It is also about 1/3 of the total fuel expense.

So, it is material money. Not sure if you could build an airline on that alone, but it is a starting point for sure.
 
nine4nine
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:42 am

Aside from Herb Kelleher, Neeleman is the next best airline genius. All the naysayers will eat their words in a few years. Probably the same negative pundits that said jetBlue wouldn’t last more than two years.
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jetmatt777
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:59 am

The airline industry is a lot different today than it was when B6 started. A startup can be squashed by the big 3 without lifting a finger. I am not betting against neeleman, but it’s a different landscape than it used to be. He will certainly have his work cut or for him, The majors back then were all struggling and couldn’t afford to fight; now they can’t afford not to fight. The stable industry of today will be very efficient in shutting down any threat to its stability. There won’t be outright fare wars, but very targeted strategies at inflicting as much damage as possible while not lighting wheelbarrows of money on fire.
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janders
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:25 pm

JetBlue Airways’ founder David Neeleman has hired Lukas Johnson, who chose routes and set pricing for Allegiant Air until he left in May, to lead commercial strategy for his new U.S. airline, which could begin flying as soon as 2021.

It’s the airline’s network strategy that could have an Allegiant flair. At Allegiant, Johnson turned a bunch of small, underserved, air markets into major profit-makers — exactly the strategy Neeleman has set for his new airline.


Ex-Allegiant Air Exec for Top Strategy Role at His New Airline
https://skift.com/2018/12/19/david-neel ... w-airline/


Will be interesting to watch how this develops
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
CobaltScar
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:46 pm

I said a few pages back that this was sounding like Allegiant 2.0
 
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Revelation
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:23 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
It is a weak business plan wrapped in “technology” and “apps.”

I think he could be a half step ahead of the competition when it comes to making the app / web site the sole point of contact between the consumer and the airline, but only a half step. Personally I can't think of the last time I spoke to an airline call center. Granted I'm no road warrior, but it seems Moxy isn't targeting road warriors, it's mostly VFR and small business from what I gather. It's not like the legacies aren't charging along on the app / web site front as well, and by the time Moxy surfaces there may be no real differentiation between them and the others.

I also think he can make a case that there are a lot of under-served markets and a highly efficient small plane with an efficient operation behind it can make a lot of city pairs become viable.

The $64M question is if this all amounts to a viable airline. I guess time will tell, but it seems clear he's getting enough investor traction to give it a go.
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avier
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:35 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
I said a few pages back that this was sounding like Allegiant 2.0


Well then, you're right on that. He's just replicating Allegiant albeit without all the negativity that allegiant had about poor service, old aircrafts, delays, etc.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:58 pm

So this begs another question. The current ULCCs have about three years before 'Moxy' gets in the air. Will G4, F9, NK try to preempt Neeleman and start flying more of these 'underserved' markets/routes ahead of time to discourage him?
 
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:07 pm

janders wrote:
JetBlue Airways’ founder David Neeleman has hired Lukas Johnson, who chose routes and set pricing for Allegiant Air until he left in May, to lead commercial strategy for his new U.S. airline, which could begin flying as soon as 2021.

It’s the airline’s network strategy that could have an Allegiant flair. At Allegiant, Johnson turned a bunch of small, underserved, air markets into major profit-makers — exactly the strategy Neeleman has set for his new airline.


Ex-Allegiant Air Exec for Top Strategy Role at His New Airline
https://skift.com/2018/12/19/david-neel ... w-airline/


Will be interesting to watch how this develops

That's highly interesting, but it's hard to be Allegiant 2.0 and not fly a single route with competition. Are they going to LAL? Hard not to step on somebody at MCO/SFB.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:59 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
So this begs another question. The current ULCCs have about three years before 'Moxy' gets in the air. Will G4, F9, NK try to preempt Neeleman and start flying more of these 'underserved' markets/routes ahead of time to discourage him?



And what about B6 itself , which will be getting their own set of 60 A220's around the same time as Moxy?

To me this still seems like a long term setup. Neeleman uses new hire low wages, this mysterious new app, and new entrant status at airports to get this operation off the ground and then sell to another 220 operator like delta or b6. If you see a lot of collusion between moxy and b6 right out of the gate, and by this interview its already started, you can bet this is a B6 shadow regional operation.

Thats my prediction.
 
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:22 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
So this begs another question. The current ULCCs have about three years before 'Moxy' gets in the air. Will G4, F9, NK try to preempt Neeleman and start flying more of these 'underserved' markets/routes ahead of time to discourage him?



And what about B6 itself , which will be getting their own set of 60 A220's around the same time as Moxy?

To me this still seems like a long term setup. Neeleman uses new hire low wages, this mysterious new app, and new entrant status at airports to get this operation off the ground and then sell to another 220 operator like delta or b6. If you see a lot of collusion between moxy and b6 right out of the gate, and by this interview its already started, you can bet this is a B6 shadow regional operation.

Thats my prediction.


A shadow regional operation using the same aircraft that you already have in your own fleet, flown by mainline pilots? Something in there is going to have to give. Either Moxie low wages, B6 level pay, or happy pilots.
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:31 pm

So there is a hope for GYY now?
 
JamesCousins
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's not like the legacies aren't charging along on the app / web site front as well, and by the time Moxy surfaces there may be no real differentiation between them and the others.


See this is where I disagree, but hope you'll be right. While technology will inevitably advance, and models such as Moxy's may encourage airlines to speed up on this front I doubt they'll create quite the tech Neeleman seems to be alluding to. Then again, what he's alluding to seems so different on the app side there may be a reason for the legacies to stay away...
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:43 pm

Technology not much help when things hit the fan. Airline will need both robust call center and airport staffing.

Look at Skybus which tried to rely on kiosk and minimal customer support at the airports. When things went wrong they had near riots with police being called in since the few staff members had no means of assisting customers in a proper manner.
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wrongwayup
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:45 pm

janders wrote:
Technology not much help when things hit the fan. Airline will need both robust call center and airport staffing.

Look at Skybus which tried to rely on kiosk and minimal customer support at the airports. When things went wrong they had near riots with police being called in since the few staff members had no means of assisting customers in a proper manner.


Technology can help a lot. Already airline apps can manage rebookings in case of delay or cancellation with no need to call nor visit the customer service desk.
 
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:33 am

Airline app wont help much if this airline ends up being P2P on routes with minimal if no competition.

As Skybus found out, if you only operate a route once daily and you cancel without any interline partnerships and tomorrows flight is almost full you are stuck with a planeload of folks without much recourse.

At the end, you need the human to override things whether that means rebooking and walking over with a station check to pay another airline, book hotels, or charter a bus.
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Miamiairport
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:50 pm

I see the US domestic market becoming saturated. Neelmen might make it by finding underserved airports in populated areas. As far as technology. Some of us remember the 2007 JFK meltdown which ultimately spelled the end of his reign at B6. In short B6 had never put into place the systems and resources to deal with significant air interruptions at a major airport. The airline business is one hell of a logistics business and it will take well more than a fancy app, particularly in times of stress.

Moreover, most of the general public has long forgotten the days when B6 first entered the industry and was considered something cool and unique. And BTW cool and unique costs $$, something your competitors aren't spending on and therefore charging for.
 
ckuschel
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:55 pm

I think Lakeland would be a logical place.
 
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UPlog
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:42 pm

Technology is not the panacea when things go wrong.
This airline will need solid airport staffing and call center support when things invariably go wrong on a local or national basis be it dealing with 100 passengers or 10,000 needing to be accommodation.
While Neeleman is a proven visionary, he is hardly the best operations persons and detail oriented.
 
dfpinto
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:53 pm

Ryanair has minimal customer service and it works well for them. I had my flight cancelled once due to an airport incident and immediately received an automated email from Ryanair with an option to re-book my flight or to get a refund. The refund was in my bank account in less than 10 days, without speaking to a single soul.

In conclusion, technology can help, especially when things go wrong.
 
impilot
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:07 pm

UPlog wrote:
Technology is not the panacea when things go wrong.
This airline will need solid airport staffing and call center support when things invariably go wrong on a local or national basis be it dealing with 100 passengers or 10,000 needing to be accommodation.
While Neeleman is a proven visionary, he is hardly the best operations persons and detail oriented.


He’s clearly stated he won’t handle operations. All he needs is someone who is a detailed oriented ops person working for him. Not an impossible task.
 
Varsity1
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:19 pm

Pilots at Jetblue want Neeleman back. They are (wishfully thinking) that this a hostile take over attempt of B6 by Neeleman.
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impilot
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:22 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Pilots at Jetblue want Neeleman back. They are (wishfully thinking) that this a hostile take over attempt of B6 by Neeleman.


A 2020 Moxy hire being integrated above a 2001 B6 hire in an SLI? Not sure how many B6 pilots want that. A visionary back at the helm would be nice. But the SLI would forever piss off about 4,000+ pilots, unless somehow the SLI strongly favored B6/DOH, which could be tough.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:46 pm

dfpinto wrote:
Ryanair has minimal customer service and it works well for them. I had my flight cancelled once due to an airport incident and immediately received an automated email from Ryanair with an option to re-book my flight or to get a refund. The refund was in my bank account in less than 10 days, without speaking to a single soul.

In conclusion, technology can help, especially when things go wrong.

If policies are well setup and try not to trap revenue, it can be great. The current airlines, including JetBlue, are very far behind in IT.

I see an open niche. I guess others do not. Invest accordingly.

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PatrickZ80
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:53 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Airline app wont help much if this airline ends up being P2P on routes with minimal if no competition.

As Skybus found out, if you only operate a route once daily and you cancel without any interline partnerships and tomorrows flight is almost full you are stuck with a planeload of folks without much recourse.

At the end, you need the human to override things whether that means rebooking and walking over with a station check to pay another airline, book hotels, or charter a bus.


True, but that can be done by a few people at the headquarters. No need to have staff for that at every single airport they serve.

On top of that, you'd be amazed what technology can do these days. They need to arrange hotel accomodations for 100 people? The computer just checks the list of contracted hotels near the airport and how many rooms they got available, books as many rooms as they need and sends an app to the stranded passenger with their computer generated hotel reservations. That way the passengers know which hotel to go to and when they show up the hotel knows about it and they get the key to their room. Doesn't take one human action at the airline.
 
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:08 pm

Blerg wrote:
That's what FR used to do, since then they have expanded into many primary airports/markets.


True, but it took them a long while to get there. For a long time the primary airports were off-limits to Ryanair. They didn't need them, there were plenty of secondary airports. Only recently Ryanair has become so big that the secondary airports alone don't cut it anymore, so they're expanding into primary airports as well.

Moxy is still far from that. For many years to come, they'll be the airline Ryanair has been for a long time. It even remains to be seen if they ever get so big they'll grow into the primary airports.

Many LCCs in America have made the mistake of moving into the primary airports. That's what Ryanair didn't do. They didn't move, they expanded. They added the primary airports, but also kept serving the secondary. That's a very important difference.
 
Blerg
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:17 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
That's what FR used to do, since then they have expanded into many primary airports/markets.


True, but it took them a long while to get there. For a long time the primary airports were off-limits to Ryanair. They didn't need them, there were plenty of secondary airports. Only recently Ryanair has become so big that the secondary airports alone don't cut it anymore, so they're expanding into primary airports as well.

Moxy is still far from that. For many years to come, they'll be the airline Ryanair has been for a long time. It even remains to be seen if they ever get so big they'll grow into the primary airports.

Many LCCs in America have made the mistake of moving into the primary airports. That's what Ryanair didn't do. They didn't move, they expanded. They added the primary airports, but also kept serving the secondary. That's a very important difference.


But isn't Allegian the Ryanair of the US? Wouldn't Moxy go against them?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:25 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I still think they could do something up against AA in MIA. You got TAP. You got AZUL. Even with travel restrictions I’d think MIA would be a solid focus city and AA would be a decent target.


I don't think we'll ever see them in primary airports like Miami. They already said they'd be using secondary airports, kind of like Ryanair does in Europe (or at least did for a long time). Fort Lauderdale might see them or even West Palm Beach, but not Miami as that's a primary airport. Too expensive, too much competition they're trying to avoid.

Same with Orlando, for which they'll probably pick Sanford or even Daytona Beach.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:34 pm

Blerg wrote:
But isn't Allegian the Ryanair of the US? Wouldn't Moxy go against them?


Yes, they sure would and if they play it smart they got what it takes to beat Allegiant.

For example, what Ryanair does do in Europe is sell transfers to and from the airport. Given the fact they fly to secondary airports, people often need a transfer into the city. Allegiant doesn't do this, but Moxy could. It could even be integrated into the app. Local contractors provide shuttles between the airport and the city the way PlusAirportLine does in Europe (they work with local contractors too). The airline and the contractor often share the fee paid by the passenger for the shuttle, which is done by a bus or minivan. It's not public transport, but it is an arranged shared ride.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:23 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
But isn't Allegian the Ryanair of the US? Wouldn't Moxy go against them?


Yes, they sure would and if they play it smart they got what it takes to beat Allegiant.

For example, what Ryanair does do in Europe is sell transfers to and from the airport. Given the fact they fly to secondary airports, people often need a transfer into the city. Allegiant doesn't do this, but Moxy could. It could even be integrated into the app. Local contractors provide shuttles between the airport and the city the way PlusAirportLine does in Europe (they work with local contractors too). The airline and the contractor often share the fee paid by the passenger for the shuttle, which is done by a bus or minivan. It's not public transport, but it is an arranged shared ride.


Interesting, I wonder if Lyft or Uber would be curious about trying something like that, you could sell 2 services, cheaper on a bus shuttle (economies of scale) or more on Lyft/Uber for smaller parties... given the tech aspect, it would give them bookings for their drivers, especially with close in itineraries, as you can normally order a Lyft a week before you have to go as an example.
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Geminijets101
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:52 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I still think they could do something up against AA in MIA. You got TAP. You got AZUL. Even with travel restrictions I’d think MIA would be a solid focus city and AA would be a decent target.


I don't think we'll ever see them in primary airports like Miami. They already said they'd be using secondary airports, kind of like Ryanair does in Europe (or at least did for a long time). Fort Lauderdale might see them or even West Palm Beach, but not Miami as that's a primary airport. Too expensive, too much competition they're trying to avoid.

Same with Orlando, for which they'll probably pick Sanford or even Daytona Beach.




Still, I think they could at least add service that MIA hasn't seen from secondary airports like, DAL, or even PIE.
Cíao
 
jmc1975
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:05 am

With the aforementioned secondary airports, Skybus comes to mind.
.......
 
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:10 pm

What killed Skybus was that oil price went soaring. Second, Skybus only sold tickets from CMH to whatever destinations it flew (no connections) limiting sales. I assume Moxy will launch from multiple airports. Still, the it will be a tough go and Neeleman will be playing the wildcard with oil prices. I think he will do something other than try to be another ULCC.
 
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mercure1
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:14 pm

Neeleman in interview in Europe mentioned his new airline could eventually “cross oceans” and should not be viewed by today’s lense of typical airline models (LCC, full service, etc) and would develop its own style.
mercure f-wtcc
 
superjeff
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:12 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Neeleman in interview in Europe mentioned his new airline could eventually “cross oceans” and should not be viewed by today’s lense of typical airline models (LCC, full service, etc) and would develop its own style.


Sounds more like the AirBaltic model than Ryanair. Air Baltic has a full service Business (or rather, EuroBusiness) class and a regular European (i.e., no frills, BOB, etc.) Economy class on their airplanes. They also interline
 
lowfareair
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:20 pm

People upthread mention that the airline is relying too much on technology to be the differentiator and I disagree - new airlines, especially with new aircraft, have close to zero tech debt* but rarely invest much in technology as they fear it costs too much, may be limited by union contracts, etc. That has been an issue with new airlines not investing much into technology and I'm glad to see Neeleman understands that technology should be used as a strength.

*tech debt = legacy systems that have to be supported and often have band-aid fixes to 'modernize' it. Think airline reservations systems still from the 1980s.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:05 pm

Well, they say that the way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large one. And Warren Buffett is quoted as wanting a support group to call next time he is tempted to invest in an airline to talk him out of it. David Neelemen has done it once and succeeded, so I will concede that he knows what he is getting into and certainly knows more about it than I do. But if I had money to invest would I invest it with him on this? Nope.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
gsg013
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:25 pm

lowfareair wrote:
EWRandMDW wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
I wonder what their NYC area airport will be.
We can likely rule out LGA, JFK, and EWR.
TEB is too small. HPN is already full, and SWF is pretty far away.
Maybe they can try FRG? I’d go with ISP, but ISP mainly serves a market of its own. ISP is just under 2 hours (give or take depending on traffic) from Manhattan, but since there’s a train station right across from the airport, maybe they can try and lure people to go to NYC that way.



How about TTN? It is roughly equidistant to New York and Philadelphia, there's a nearby rail line with service existing via SEPTA to Philly and where service to Newark and NYC on NJT could be restored. I 95 passes by the airport, the NJ and PA Turnpikes are not far away. There is passenger potential galore. Many big pharma companies (BM-S, J&J, etc) are in the area and Princeton University and the Institute for Advanced Studies as well as state and local colleges are in place and within 15 miles of the field. F9 showed that TTN can work, so why not?


The big issue with TTN is that any growth will face huge backlash from the neighbors, who are relatively affluent and willing to drop money on lawsuits. One bright spot for Moxy is that the CS300 should have no/little range restrictions from the airport.


How about MMU in Morristown NJ?
 
OKCDCA
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:40 pm

lowfareair wrote:
People upthread mention that the airline is relying too much on technology to be the differentiator and I disagree - new airlines, especially with new aircraft, have close to zero tech debt* but rarely invest much in technology as they fear it costs too much, may be limited by union contracts, etc. That has been an issue with new airlines not investing much into technology and I'm glad to see Neeleman understands that technology should be used as a strength.

*tech debt = legacy systems that have to be supported and often have band-aid fixes to 'modernize' it. Think airline reservations systems still from the 1980s.

Any new business, in any industry, that doesn't fully embrace technology is not starting on the right foot. It will definitely be interesting to see what kind of technology they are able to roll out with this new airline. You bring up a point regarding union contracts. Unions are notoriously anti-technology as they feel it eliminates jobs, whereas it more re-purposes jobs. When the unions try to poke their noses in this new airline, hopefully they will be so far behind the technology curve, they won't be able to properly negotiate limiting the expansion of the technology.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 368
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:07 pm

Revelation wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
It is a weak business plan wrapped in “technology” and “apps.”

I think he could be a half step ahead of the competition when it comes to making the app / web site the sole point of contact between the consumer and the airline, but only a half step. Personally I can't think of the last time I spoke to an airline call center. Granted I'm no road warrior, but it seems Moxy isn't targeting road warriors, it's mostly VFR and small business from what I gather. It's not like the legacies aren't charging along on the app / web site front as well, and by the time Moxy surfaces there may be no real differentiation between them and the others.

I also think he can make a case that there are a lot of under-served markets and a highly efficient small plane with an efficient operation behind it can make a lot of city pairs become viable.

The $64M question is if this all amounts to a viable airline. I guess time will tell, but it seems clear he's getting enough investor traction to give it a go.


He's got a pretty good track record.....
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:00 pm

gsg013 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
EWRandMDW wrote:


How about TTN? It is roughly equidistant to New York and Philadelphia, there's a nearby rail line with service existing via SEPTA to Philly and where service to Newark and NYC on NJT could be restored. I 95 passes by the airport, the NJ and PA Turnpikes are not far away. There is passenger potential galore. Many big pharma companies (BM-S, J&J, etc) are in the area and Princeton University and the Institute for Advanced Studies as well as state and local colleges are in place and within 15 miles of the field. F9 showed that TTN can work, so why not?


The big issue with TTN is that any growth will face huge backlash from the neighbors, who are relatively affluent and willing to drop money on lawsuits. One bright spot for Moxy is that the CS300 should have no/little range restrictions from the airport.


How about MMU in Morristown NJ?


I cannot see the NIMBYs allowing any significant commercial service out of Morristown. If that was an optional I think several airlines would have already tried it.
 
mastyc
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:47 pm

Wasn't MOXIE that chocolate that Target used to sell?
 
ghoepers
Posts: 6
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Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:16 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Wow, David Neeleman, born in Sao Paulo, Brazil. The same guy that ordered a bunch of Embraer 190/195s (at JetBlue and at Azul). To say the least, he must have an in-depth knowledge of the E195E2 performance.

And he ended up picking the CS300 as the best aircraft for the job... :stirthepot:


He did a great job in Jetblue and Azul, he’s an expert to identify new opportunities.
Hoepers

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