Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
ArcticSEA
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:04 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:00 am

Could we see them at PAE?
PNW-based private pilot and engineer. #fatpnw
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22379
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:58 am

ArcticSEA wrote:
Could we see them at PAE?

The first expansion us East of the Mississippi.

I would not expect a West coast expansion until years later. Ask again in a few years


Lightsaber
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 496
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:
ArcticSEA wrote:
Could we see them at PAE?

The first expansion us East of the Mississippi.

I would not expect a West coast expansion until years later. Ask again in a few years


Lightsaber

I think you will see a west coast base within 1 year of them commencing operations.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11863
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:31 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
ArcticSEA wrote:
Could we see them at PAE?

The first expansion us East of the Mississippi.

I would not expect a West coast expansion until years later. Ask again in a few years


Lightsaber

I think you will see a west coast base within 1 year of them commencing operations.

Breeze has mentioned in certification documents that early on their focus will be the Southeast, primarily to other points east. They are not going to spread themselves thin across the country early on when they are still a small company.
 
santi319
Posts: 1126
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:25 pm

F9Animal wrote:
santi319 wrote:
I know that the a-net community worships the ground that Neelman walks on, but does anyone else think this is a terrible idea??


I worship him, and I am proud to admit that. Remember, B6 survived 9/11 and was still a relatively new airline when that happened. Yes, the timing does suck, but they are committed to doing this, and making it successful.

I wouldn't hesitate to go work for them either. Based on his success in starting airlines, I would be pretty comfortable with working for them. This isn't a Skybus or PEX venture. They have a plan, and they will go through with it.


You may be right, historically Neelman’s adventures have all been 100% succesful so statically speaking why should this one be different?

I think Allegiant should be the only one that has to worry here, and to a lesser extent NK.
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:01 am

santi319 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
santi319 wrote:
I know that the a-net community worships the ground that Neelman walks on, but does anyone else think this is a terrible idea??


I worship him, and I am proud to admit that. Remember, B6 survived 9/11 and was still a relatively new airline when that happened. Yes, the timing does suck, but they are committed to doing this, and making it successful.

I wouldn't hesitate to go work for them either. Based on his success in starting airlines, I would be pretty comfortable with working for them. This isn't a Skybus or PEX venture. They have a plan, and they will go through with it.


You may be right, historically Neelman’s adventures have all been 100% succesful so statically speaking why should this one be different?

I think Allegiant should be the only one that has to worry here, and to a lesser extent NK.


Would you classify Neeleman's TAP foray as successful?
 
santi319
Posts: 1126
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:21 pm

enplaned wrote:
santi319 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:

I worship him, and I am proud to admit that. Remember, B6 survived 9/11 and was still a relatively new airline when that happened. Yes, the timing does suck, but they are committed to doing this, and making it successful.

I wouldn't hesitate to go work for them either. Based on his success in starting airlines, I would be pretty comfortable with working for them. This isn't a Skybus or PEX venture. They have a plan, and they will go through with it.


You may be right, historically Neelman’s adventures have all been 100% succesful so statically speaking why should this one be different?

I think Allegiant should be the only one that has to worry here, and to a lesser extent NK.


Would you classify Neeleman's TAP foray as successful?


Last I checked he didn’t start TAP, he assisted with its turnover...
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:04 pm

santi319 wrote:
enplaned wrote:
santi319 wrote:

You may be right, historically Neelman’s adventures have all been 100% succesful so statically speaking why should this one be different?

I think Allegiant should be the only one that has to worry here, and to a lesser extent NK.


Would you classify Neeleman's TAP foray as successful?


Last I checked he didn’t start TAP, he assisted with its turnover...


You're saying JetBlue, Azul & Breeze were/are a Neeleman "adventure" but TAP was not?
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:57 am

49 page Breeze filing with DOT. "First Response to Information Request"

https://beta.regulations.gov/document/D ... -0019-0008

The first Breeze aircraft has been painted at Dean Baldwin in Peru,
Indiana, and all information technology systems are either in production or user acceptance testing.
Breeze respectfully submits that it meets the standards for the Department’s finding that it is ready,
willing and able to provide the interstate scheduled passenger air transportation.


Otherwise it's mostly a bunch of info about Breeze's shareholders and management.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:42 am

Aircraft is at Embraer AMS in Macon for outfitting and Breeze-specific work.

enplaned wrote:
49 page Breeze filing with DOT. "First Response to Information Request"

https://beta.regulations.gov/document/D ... -0019-0008

The first Breeze aircraft has been painted at Dean Baldwin in Peru,
Indiana, and all information technology systems are either in production or user acceptance testing.
Breeze respectfully submits that it meets the standards for the Department’s finding that it is ready,
willing and able to provide the interstate scheduled passenger air transportation.


Otherwise it's mostly a bunch of info about Breeze's shareholders and management.
 
User avatar
DalDC9Bos
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:54 am

Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:03 am

Besides the obvious timing of this during Covid, this has to be one of the oddest changes to the requirements of the FA role and the benefits provided.

Some of the key changes:

- Mandatory 4yr online college for all FAs while they are flying
- Salary monthly versus flight hours
- Housing Provided and Airport Transport

Etc, etc.,

https://onemileatatime.com/breeze-airwa ... ttendants/
 
User avatar
DalDC9Bos
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:54 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:07 am

Yep, the role and application is up and active.

https://www.flybreeze.com/#jobs
 
Lpbri
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:18 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:11 pm

A college degree in what? There is no point in getting any college degree just for the sake of having one.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11863
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:24 pm

Lpbri wrote:
A college degree in what? There is no point in getting any college degree just for the sake of having one.

In whatever they want. This is Breeze’s attempt to get young people as FAs who will not stick around long.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:36 pm

So you work as flight attendant and get payed with a college degree but you have to finish? A bit like the military approach?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9598
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:42 pm

Polot wrote:
Lpbri wrote:
A college degree in what? There is no point in getting any college degree just for the sake of having one.

In whatever they want. This is Breeze’s attempt to get young people as FAs who will not stick around long.


Breeze Airways is looking to hire a certain type of person quite deliberately, without violating any employment discrimination laws - from the OP's linked piece.

This is a fairly clever way to do it, and with the tuition reimbursement cap it means the company isn't spending too much money to filter in this way.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:42 pm

DalDC9Bos wrote:
Besides the obvious timing of this during Covid, this has to be one of the oddest changes to the requirements of the FA role and the benefits provided.

Some of the key changes:

- Mandatory 4yr online college for all FAs while they are flying
- Salary monthly versus flight hours
- Housing Provided and Airport Transport

Etc, etc.,

https://onemileatatime.com/breeze-airwa ... ttendants/


As long as Breeze pays the tuition.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Noshow
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:48 pm

Is this some way to get government money for education to pay flight attendants?
 
bennett123
Posts: 10813
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:52 pm

At what point does monthly pay cost less than based on flight hours?.
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:55 pm

I’m guessing some organizational psychologist sold Neeleman on this. There is probably data that correlates ambition/desire for self-improvement with customer service.

The article points out the possibility of an LDS connection, which is interesting...

Some successful grads would likely matriculate into back office roles, so you’d have an airline full of people who have served on the front line, which will promote cultural development.

Ultimately, I’d be surprised if they are able to staff the entire FA ranks using this program.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10410
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:56 pm

Polot wrote:
Lpbri wrote:
A college degree in what? There is no point in getting any college degree just for the sake of having one.

In whatever they want. This is Breeze’s attempt to get young people as FAs who will not stick around long.

I 1/2 disagree. It’s an attempt to get young people who will stick around for 4 years. 4 years is a long time for new FAs. It is VERY common for FAs to get pregnant in the first 18 months and they very rarely come back since being an FA pays so poorly it makes little sense to pay somebody else to watch your child.

They are essentially saying that they want young people who want a career and not an insta-family.
 
User avatar
knope2001
Posts: 3079
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:09 pm

They aren't looking for people with degrees, they are looking for people *without* college who must actively earn a degree online while flying. Looks like they want young, single, unexperienced, ambitious people who want more out of life than "only" being a FA. And most importantly, get them the hell out when they can make a better living using their degree elsewhere, want to build a career, want to start a family, want to leave the dorm lifestyle behind. Keep inflight mostly fresh, young, disposable, non-union and and at the lower end of the pay scale.

In some ways it's an ingenious way to (apparently legally) mold your workforce, in other ways it makes my skin absolutely crawl. Perhaps they can devise other ways of shaping their workforce like make sure the crash pads are inconvenient to bars and entertainment areas and well-decorated with scrubbed images of family life they can aspire to. The college they partner with is Utah Valley University and a quick search suggests that the $6000 tuition stipend Breeze offers covers all of in-state tuition but only half of out-of-state tuition. Think they might just happen to attract more people who are living in Utah or willing to move there? To be fair nothing says they have to partner with every college. And just by circumstance a company which builds a facility in...say...Bangor will likely have a lot fewer black employees than if they had a facility in Birmingham simply because of the local demographics. Doesn't have to be anything illegal going on. But it still seems to run counter to the expected employee/employer social contract.

It reminds me of a small strip-mall bank I worked at once. The owner's plan was to open a Christian Science Reading Room in the vacant spot next door, then open a wall so it was easy to access from inside the bank. Rather than make improvements to our tiny spartan break room the CSRR would have comfortable chairs, a fireplace, nooks, and be well-stocked with (selected) reading materials. There was even talk of implementing a formal break policy/schedule for salaried workers to encourage spending a little time there during the workday. None of this was illegal or wrong. And in the eyes of the owner and close CS confidants it was viewed as a wonderful perk for employees. But they were surprised to find it meeting with strong resistance from within the leadership team who were not Christian Scientists as well as from the rank-and-file employees like me who heard about the plan. Just because something isn't illegal doesn't make it any less creepy or questionable
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:11 pm

It's an attempt to select for particular traits within the FA hiring pool - people who live the way that the program requires them to, who are pursuing a four year degree (and therefore are likely to see the FA role as a stage in life, as opposed to a career), people who have the motivation to get a degree, etc.

As 2eng2efficient says, one key issue is whether you can fill out the FA ranks entirely with such a program. This might be one of several programs that Breeze is rolling out - we'll see.

You could well imagine that people hired under such a program would be extremely resistant to unionization and otherwise be quite different than typical FA hires. Gotta give Breeze credit for creativity.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3494
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:15 pm

Polot wrote:
Lpbri wrote:
A college degree in what? There is no point in getting any college degree just for the sake of having one.

In whatever they want. This is Breeze’s attempt to get young people as FAs who will not stick around long.



Exactly Breeze does not want flight attendants from other carriers, they want fresh, young, energetic people with a positive attitude not people in the industry who are looking for a job because they were furloughed or had their hours cut at another carrier.

In my opinion you can't go wrong with getting your college degree, and it is nice to see them offering tuition reimbursement if you maintain a certain GPA.

If the wages are decent paying FA's a monthly wage instead of an hourly wage might work. If Breeze's intention is to work these FA's 14-16 hours per day (up down, up down all day) and if the monthly wages are not decent they may find it difficult to retain their FA's once the industry begins it recovery. For Breeze to have any chance of holding on to their FA's I think the monthly wage need to be in range of what an FA's makes at any one of the express carriers or perhaps even what ULCC's are paying their FA's.

All things said the college requirement is a great tool to weed out lazy, lackadaisical people who would destroy Breeze before the airline even has a chance to get off the ground.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22379
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:58 pm

enplaned wrote:
It's an attempt to select for particular traits within the FA hiring pool - people who live the way that the program requires them to, who are pursuing a four year degree (and therefore are likely to see the FA role as a stage in life, as opposed to a career), people who have the motivation to get a degree, etc.

As 2eng2efficient says, one key issue is whether you can fill out the FA ranks entirely with such a program. This might be one of several programs that Breeze is rolling out - we'll see.

You could well imagine that people hired under such a program would be extremely resistant to unionization and otherwise be quite different than typical FA hires. Gotta give Breeze credit for creativity.

This insures a motivated workforce with decent turnover. In effect, they set a higher standard, but attract employees who need side income for college.

In the coming economy, I think this will work well. The issue is classes impose a schedule, so Breeze will have to have a system to schedule around classes.

I also agree with above posts you will have resistance to unionization.

In many ways, this allows getting around a lot of laws to hire a more motivated, but temporary, fa workforce.

Lightsaber

Late edit: In some ways this is a throwback to old school fa hiring practices. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. We will just say some airlines have surly FAs and some don't. I guess this is Breeze's attempt to keep up service levels.

later edit:
Judging by their target market (my impression is a higher end Allegiant), Breeze is trying to hire FAs compatible with the target market.
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 598
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:18 pm

lightsaber wrote:
enplaned wrote:
It's an attempt to select for particular traits within the FA hiring pool - people who live the way that the program requires them to, who are pursuing a four year degree (and therefore are likely to see the FA role as a stage in life, as opposed to a career), people who have the motivation to get a degree, etc.

As 2eng2efficient says, one key issue is whether you can fill out the FA ranks entirely with such a program. This might be one of several programs that Breeze is rolling out - we'll see.

You could well imagine that people hired under such a program would be extremely resistant to unionization and otherwise be quite different than typical FA hires. Gotta give Breeze credit for creativity.

This insures a motivated workforce with decent turnover. In effect, they set a higher standard, but attract employees who need side income for college.

In the coming economy, I think this will work well. The issue is classes impose a schedule, so Breeze will have to have a system to schedule around classes.

I also agree with above posts you will have resistance to unionization.

In many ways, this allows getting around a lot of laws to hire a more motivated, but temporary, fa workforce.

Lightsaber

Late edit: In some ways this is a throwback to old school fa hiring practices. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. We will just say some airlines have surly FAs and some don't. I guess this is Breeze's attempt to keep up service levels.

later edit:
Judging by their target market (my impression is a higher end Allegiant), Breeze is trying to hire FAs compatible with the target market.


With a lot of online classes nowadays, there is a very looses schedule, only due dates, not meeting times etc...At least that's how it is in my wife's program. Allows a lot of working adults to attend school while earning a income. If I was young and in college, I might consider something like this. If housing is free and you play your cards right, you could graduate with zero to minimal debt with hopefully a useful degree while having a monthly income to either spend as you see fit, or to save. Sure, you have to work every month, but plenty of people are already balancing all of this without the benefit of a tuition reimbursement program.

I don't think we will see any issues filling the slots.
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 207
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:09 pm

This can’t be their only source of flight attendants, otherwise they won’t have enough to start flying. And certainly there are hiring discrimination concerns re the requirements of it. But I get the feeling this is similar to the ab initio pilot programs (United for example bought a flight school) for getting future pilots, but it isnt the only method to hire.

So what happens after 4 years and getting the degree? Do they lose the housing? Are they forced to resign?

What happens if they fail to get the degree or maintain the GPA? Fired?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9598
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:30 pm

EssentialBusDC wrote:
And certainly there are hiring discrimination concerns re the requirements of it.


Could you please point to relevant U.S. federal or state law that this violates?

Lots of other U.S. FAs aren't going to like this because it establishes a level of qualifications that a large fraction of them could not meet. (As to whether this actually leads to a path of better service and higher productivity per dollar, I'd like to see the full argument that convinced Neeleman.)
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:35 pm

I'm having a hard time accepting that one needs a 4 year online degree to become a FA. I can certainly see additional courses in areas like inter personal skills, customer service and understanding different cultures, as well as the safety training and whatever other training a FA would need. This seems to be overkill. Why can't it be a 1-2 year certification program? Some of the dumbest people I've met have college degrees. And some of the laziest.

And yes this is one way of hiring only young workers and avoid hiring FAs that have been displaced by other airlines
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2591
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:55 pm

On the one hand, this sounds like a very good deal, especially if one doesn't possess the means to travel or get a 4-year degree. It's also a relatively good way to essentially keep people on payroll for a short period of time, as I am assuming that once completing the degree the FAs will move on to bigger and better things. However, part of the arrangement sounds very creepy and stepford-wives like.

The company housing, transport to the airport, and monthly salary sounds a lot like the Middle Eastern carriers. I would bet the monthly salary would be quite low in comparison to other US carriers because housing is included.

UVU is a public institution and is not affiliated with the LDS church. It's adjacent to Provo, however, and I am willing to bet that the majority of its students/faculty are affiliated with the church. Neelman is a member of the church, and I would be worried personally about the housing arrangement, and whether there becomes a work/life imbalance. Would FAs be allowed to drink alcohol/coffee in their housing units? Would they be allowed to receive overnight guests?
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 763ER, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
Murdoughnut
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:18 pm

You want someone who sticks around long enough to return the investment on their training, but not so long as skew mean salary. This was clearly strategically drawn up to do just that.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1880
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:37 pm

Murdoughnut wrote:
You want someone who sticks around long enough to return the investment on their training, but not so long as skew mean salary. This was clearly strategically drawn up to do just that.


For those young folks not knowing yet what they want to do or where they want to go, but having the desire to go somewhere, what a great opportunity. Seems like a win win.
 
airlinereporter
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:34 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:40 pm

jayunited wrote:
Exactly Breeze does not want flight attendants from other carriers, they want fresh, young, energetic people with a positive attitude not people in the industry who are looking for a job because they were furloughed or had their hours cut at another carrier.


Fresh from what? The requirements are a high school diploma, but a minimum age of 20 with forced enrollment in undergrad. You typically start undergrad right after high school when the average age is 17 or 18, maybe 19. So...what have the people they're targeting been doing between high school and the start of this program? They're not fresh out of high school.
Last edited by airlinereporter on Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Murdoughnut
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:41 pm

FlyPeoria wrote:
I hope "Moxy" looks at DAY. It is sad to see what air service there has become compared to even 10 years ago, let alone 20.


I looked at DAY as a potential airport to work in air service development since my wife's family is there. The salary they offered for their marketing/ASD person was about $90k less than what I make at my current airport.
 
Murdoughnut
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:42 pm

airlinereporter wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Exactly Breeze does not want flight attendants from other carriers, they want fresh, young, energetic people with a positive attitude not people in the industry who are looking for a job because they were furloughed or had their hours cut at another carrier.


Fresh from what? The requirements are a high school diploma, but a minimum age of 20 with forced enrollment in undergrad. You typically start undergrad right after high school when the average age is 17 or 18, maybe 19. So...what have the people they're targeting been doing between high school and the start of this program? They're not fresh out of high school.


I agree. It's still going to peev off the big union folks, though.
 
User avatar
sunking737
Posts: 1748
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:59 pm

I was told once with high unemployment HR wants college degrees. Low unemployment they take anyone that passes a background check
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"
Retired MSP Ramper
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3160
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:16 pm

airlinereporter wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Exactly Breeze does not want flight attendants from other carriers, they want fresh, young, energetic people with a positive attitude not people in the industry who are looking for a job because they were furloughed or had their hours cut at another carrier.


Fresh from what? The requirements are a high school diploma, but a minimum age of 20 with forced enrollment in undergrad. You typically start undergrad right after high school when the average age is 17 or 18, maybe 19. So...what have the people they're targeting been doing between high school and the start of this program? They're not fresh out of high school.


One of the requirements here is:

"Current Utah Valley University, full-time, online student by the time Flight Attendant Training commences"

so you could get a 19 year old (approaching 20), second year in college, interested for this program. This solves two further problems - having to pay for maybe only 2-3 years of tuition instead of 4, AND making sure they're capable of starting the UVU program (eg being mature enough for college) by the time they start training.

Either way I agree with some of the other posters, I don't think this will end up staffing all of their FA positions, but it's an interesting approach to a hiring program and has the potential to keep flight attendant costs somewhat stable without having to deal with unions and lifetime career FA seniority issues.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how Allegiant does their FA staffing?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
departedflights
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:40 pm

I was very interested in reading about the new requirements for flight attendants... a truly interesting read. I have to express my displeasure, however, at that thread being merged into this mega thread. I really am not interested in any other aspects of Breeze so it is a shame I will probably just ignore any further discussion on the flight attendant hiring and requirements.
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 207
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:40 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:
And certainly there are hiring discrimination concerns re the requirements of it.


Could you please point to relevant U.S. federal or state law that this violates?

Lots of other U.S. FAs aren't going to like this because it establishes a level of qualifications that a large fraction of them could not meet. (As to whether this actually leads to a path of better service and higher productivity per dollar, I'd like to see the full argument that convinced Neeleman.)


I said it raises concerns. It’s up to the actual lawyers and judges/ juries/EEOC to decide if it is worth a lawsuit and has validity under the law.

Will they hire a 45-50 year old married parent (male or female), who is willing to enroll in the college program? Or those that already have a degree, maybe they want a second one? The current demographics of Flight Attendants is not like the old days. Lots of college educated, second career types.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22379
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:49 pm

EssentialBusDC wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:
And certainly there are hiring discrimination concerns re the requirements of it.


Could you please point to relevant U.S. federal or state law that this violates?

Lots of other U.S. FAs aren't going to like this because it establishes a level of qualifications that a large fraction of them could not meet. (As to whether this actually leads to a path of better service and higher productivity per dollar, I'd like to see the full argument that convinced Neeleman.)


I said it raises concerns. It’s up to the actual lawyers and judges/ juries/EEOC to decide if it is worth a lawsuit and has validity under the law.

Will they hire a 45-50 year old married parent (male or female), who is willing to enroll in the college program? Or those that already have a degree, maybe they want a second one? The current demographics of Flight Attendants is not like the old days. Lots of college educated, second career types.

It only raises concern if they do not hire the career switcher. Otherwise, it seems like a good strategy to appeal to their target market hiring motivated people earning college degrees.

Lightsaber
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3494
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:30 pm

airlinereporter wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Exactly Breeze does not want flight attendants from other carriers, they want fresh, young, energetic people with a positive attitude not people in the industry who are looking for a job because they were furloughed or had their hours cut at another carrier.


Fresh from what? The requirements are a high school diploma, but a minimum age of 20 with forced enrollment in undergrad. You typically start undergrad right after high school when the average age is 17 or 18, maybe 19. So...what have the people they're targeting been doing between high school and the start of this program? They're not fresh out of high school.



Talk about making assumptions where in my response did I say fresh out of high school?

When I say fresh what I'm talking about is they are looking for FA's that haven't been tainted by the bad practices, bad attitudes, bad habits, they don't want FA that are jaded because of how they've been treated at another airline. They want fresh people energetic people who are willing to learn and willing to accept Breeze's way of doing things and not come in to this job with baggage from other carriers.

The online college requirement will weed out a lot of applicants it will help Breeze select people who are serious, people who can multi-task. As a FA you are probably going to be working 14-16 hour days perhaps 4 to 5 days a week but you still will have to find time to go to college online and maintain a GPA of 3.0 if you want tuition reimbursement. That alone will thin out the herd of potential applicants.
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:49 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
I'm having a hard time accepting that one needs a 4 year online degree to become a FA.


In this program, Breeze is not hiring those who have a four year degree. Instead, it's hiring those who are pursuing a four year degree.

Miamiairport wrote:
I can certainly see additional courses in areas like inter personal skills, customer service and understanding different cultures, as well as the safety training and whatever other training a FA would need. This seems to be overkill. Why can't it be a 1-2 year certification program?


This is about self-selection. Breeze is seeking those who are aiming at a four year degree.

Miamiairport wrote:
Some of the dumbest people I've met have college degrees. And some of the laziest.


Probably have a hard time staying in this program if you are lazy. Again, this is about selecting for people who are aiming high and willing to work hard.

Miamiairport wrote:
And yes this is one way of hiring only young workers and avoid hiring FAs that have been displaced by other airlines


Is there any law that prevents an airline from disqualifying those who have prior experience as an FA? It's unclear to me what law would stop that.
 
Lpbri
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:18 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:52 pm

If this college is done online, how do you attend lab classes? As an undergraduate, I spent a lot of time in lab classes.
 
User avatar
DalDC9Bos
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:54 am

Re: Breeze Airways Now Hiring FAs-Major Changes

Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:49 pm

Murdoughnut wrote:
You want someone who sticks around long enough to return the investment on their training, but not so long as skew mean salary. This was clearly strategically drawn up to do just that.


You nailed it on the head. This arrangement will avoid pay scales over many years or decades that cost the majors a lot. There will be no 10 or 15 year seniority FA. Whether they pay a different monthly salary for a year 1 or year 4 FA is anyone’s guess. I’d bet they will have just one salary for all FAs for a while.

Does anyone know how the FA hiring is at Azul? Anything like this? Is he bringing this to the US?
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4583
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:03 pm

this will only work for so long. Once the fresh newhires see how much money they could make at a major carrier, they will abandon their college aspirations and work for a real airline with a union. The thing they are not taking into account with that demographic is usually the just out of high school crowd does not want to live in an environment where people are telling them what to do. They had 18 years of that at home, and while a good opportunity - they may quit well ahead of the airline's desired timeframe to push them out the door. Once they see they can have their own life at a different airline, without the company dictating their career and social life they will jump ship.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:44 pm

Neeleman is one shrewd guy. IMO we've seen this before - People Express when it started. Low labor costs, no retiree costs, no unions, stay away from the big guys, cheap airplanes. no huge back office and C-suite salaries. Good luck Majors. I remember back in the early 80's being recruited by a PE F/A who said hers was the greatest company in the world. PE stock was given to the first group of employees and it skyrocketed. On paper she was in her mind rich. Didn't cost PE a cent to issue those shares. A major couldn't do that without diluting other shareholders.

Now if he doesn't make the same mistakes PE did......
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    User avatar
    lightsaber
    Moderator
    Posts: 22379
    Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

    Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:30 pm

    jetmatt777 wrote:
    this will only work for so long. Once the fresh newhires see how much money they could make at a major carrier, they will abandon their college aspirations and work for a real airline with a union. The thing they are not taking into account with that demographic is usually the just out of high school crowd does not want to live in an environment where people are telling them what to do. They had 18 years of that at home, and while a good opportunity - they may quit well ahead of the airline's desired timeframe to push them out the door. Once they see they can have their own life at a different airline, without the company dictating their career and social life they will jump ship.

    When the majors hire again, after recalling furloughs, Breeze will still have the college tuition. There is no risk of losing to the majors before 2025. So the first few years are set.

    I think this setup was done to prevent a flood of applications from furloughed FAs who would return to the majors as soon as recalled.

    Now, 21-25 year olds are notorious for not being loyal. I'm sure the training cost vs. employment cost vs. customer satisfaction was mapped out.

    Considering regional airlines are able to staff FAs, I'm fairly sure Breeze will have no issue.

    Lightsaber
    7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9598
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

    Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:55 pm

    lightsaber wrote:
    Considering regional airlines are able to staff FAs, I'm fairly sure Breeze will have no issue.

    Lightsaber


    Regionals, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant... Even with the nationwide unemployment rate at 3.5% carriers could hire FAs at will.

    I'm not sure a Breeze FA job with appeal to everybody - is housing going to be communal/do they pick your roommates? - but it seems they don't really want everybody, either.

    enplaned wrote:
    This is about self-selection. Breeze is seeking those who are aiming at a four year degree.

    Miamiairport wrote:
    Some of the dumbest people I've met have college degrees. And some of the laziest.



    Like I said - a lot of people on the service side presently in the industry are going to find some serious envious butt-ache.
     
    Miamiairport
    Posts: 828
    Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

    Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

    Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:16 am

    Even 4 years for a college degree is ridiculous. It's about extracting the maximum money out of young people. Most of what I learned as an undergrad was totally useless and forgotten 10 minutes after I finished the final exam. No online school for a FA should be four years. Two years is a stretch. Really does a FA need to take Literature of the 1600s to do their job? I would have thought Neeleman to be smarter than that.

    As far as age as you get older it becomes harder to retain knowledge and take tests. And let's be honest it's not like a FA's job has changed vastly over the years like many other occupations. Other than geting safety certification on a new a/c the job doesn't change much. Serving a diet coke hasn't exactly changed over the years. The consequences is that it's harder to take in new knowledge and past tests. Again, I'm clueless to what would need to take 4 years of study to work as a FA. There are a lot of bright, able, motivated young people out there maybe not cut out for a STEM degree but no desire to go into $50K in debt for a useless college degree. I'm sure a paid 1-2 year study period to become a FA would be perfect for them.
     
    User avatar
    Polot
    Posts: 11863
    Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

    Re: Breeze - News and Discussion Thread

    Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:42 am

    Miamiairport wrote:
    Even 4 years for a college degree is ridiculous. It's about extracting the maximum money out of young people. Most of what I learned as an undergrad was totally useless and forgotten 10 minutes after I finished the final exam. No online school for a FA should be four years. Two years is a stretch. Really does a FA need to take Literature of the 1600s to do their job? I would have thought Neeleman to be smarter than that.

    As far as age as you get older it becomes harder to retain knowledge and take tests. And let's be honest it's not like a FA's job has changed vastly over the years like many other occupations. Other than geting safety certification on a new a/c the job doesn't change much. Serving a diet coke hasn't exactly changed over the years. The consequences is that it's harder to take in new knowledge and past tests. Again, I'm clueless to what would need to take 4 years of study to work as a FA. There are a lot of bright, able, motivated young people out there maybe not cut out for a STEM degree but no desire to go into $50K in debt for a useless college degree. I'm sure a paid 1-2 year study period to become a FA would be perfect for them.


    You don’t seem to understand. Breeze is not doing this so FAs earn a degree and stay with the company for the rest of their working life. Breeze wants their FA’s to earn a degree, then eventually leave. That way they can keep a high proportion of young, enthusiastic FAs (I doubt as the company grows all FA’s will be hired with such arrangement), their workforce stays rather junior with lower salaries, and they are less likely to unionize.

    This is basically an opportunity to travel and see country as you earn a degree (on company dime) before going off on own desired career path.

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: airplaneboy, Anansaudiajet, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], cedarjet, hummingbird, jfern022, Misterven1, MoKa777, NG263, Nick71747, QuawerAir, Someone83, soyuz, SQ22, Virtual737 and 150 guests

    Popular Searches On Airliners.net

    Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

    Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

    Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

    Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

    Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

    Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

    Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

    Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

    Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

    Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

    Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

    Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

    Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

    Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

    Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos