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kjeld0d
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:00 pm

This is still on page one after a week? Will the last a.netter please turn out the lights.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:49 pm

Flighty wrote:
-untrained non pilot.


We know from sources cited that the pilot was experienced, ops in Africa on unimproved strips, etc., but the landing at issue was pure luck after the pilot's misjudging this particular unimproved "airstrip".
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:58 pm

WPvsMW, hi. Pilots in general, German pilots in particular, will do a very serious preparation before this kind of flights, they receive every bit of info in tbe preflight, if pax are o/b, they will fly first an extra crew and only after that, as a pilot in comand.(of course not for a grass field, but for a shorter, or between montains or similar strip)
For this landing with a plane empty, He did a fly past to compare info and reality.
Such a Landing is difficult, but for sure, no unprepare.
Rgds
 
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:28 pm

Flighty wrote:
The aircraft nearly ate it. Might be a fine pilot but the landing was basically a loss of control, judging by the corrections that appear to have been quite desperate. They didn’t realize the slope at the beginning of the strip was steeply downward, which slammed the main gear (and as a result caused the nose gear to slam and then bounce some 40 feet high). At that point, the pilots appear to have been hanging on for their lives. -untrained non pilot.


While I’m not a Pilot, I can’t, argue about “proper landing techique for a grass & short strip, and a Forrest before strip. But, from the aeronauticas’ bases, landing, in those cases, should be similar to aircraft “drop” in the last meters, to allow wing to drop quick all sustentation, thus allowing brakes to dissipate a/c energy more efficiently and quick. And, as IL-62 is a very old, remember there are not Slats Or Modern Flaps, (only 1 section Fowlers flaps), and Wing....

Rgds

PD: All who,want, may try to land an IL-62M on a grass strip on a Microsoft Simulator, just, please, use same condition, Strip’s large & wide, a Forest before it and...
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:40 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Flighty wrote:
-untrained non pilot.


We know from sources cited that the pilot was experienced, ops in Africa on unimproved strips, etc., but the landing at issue was pure luck after the pilot's misjudging this particular unimproved "airstrip".


For our enlightenment, what facts were misjudged by pilot’s? Are You a Pilot? Have You seen an African Grass’Landing Strip?

By the way, this strip does not look to much to African strips, were they are positioned in clear spaces, to facilitate in certain degree landings.
This looks more similar to WWII Strips, short and “hiden” near forests..

RGDS
 
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:27 am

barney captain wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
He also says that the plane landed with just two engines as to be able to start the other two and taxi to the final resting spot which is a bit away.


Suspicions confirmed - judgment = zero.

SMH

I found interesting how many people write in this forum, w/o knowing.
Il 62M, engines 1&4 get Reversers, eng 2& 3 does not. They rest at flight idle during landing for possible Go around at full power.
This kind of landings do not allow a go-around, so, Engine 2 & 3... better be s/down to avoid FOD ingestion and have them ready for Ground taxi-Ground Operation

Please do not criticized w/o knowing!

Rgds
 
HAWKXP
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:10 am

Using Google Earth there is an 18' downslope on that runway
 
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Loran
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:20 am

A lot of speculations in here. I have been there a few years ago, it is well worth the visit. Here is some info I recall from my visit:

There was a 14 months preparation time span until the aircraft finally landed. It wasn't a short-notice stunt which they tried out without thoroughly planning everything.
Kallbach and his crew practiced the approach with other aircraft throughout 1989. The successful landing had two missed attempts before, one cancelled due to a reverser problem and the second one due to fog.
The aircraft was highly modified to reduce the landing weight. Everything was removed which was not needed.
The crew was highly experienced, Kallbach at that time already had close to 30y of flying experience, including 11y on the Il-62.
Kallbach and his crew were very aware of the downward slope, reading the comments here it sounds like they never saw the runway before. The approach was on target, you can see the main landing gear is just above the tree line as anticipated. I recall reading the nose up attitude after ground contact was purposly done to increase drag and reduce gravel damage to the lower front fuselage. It certainly wasn't any sort of over-reaction. The crew was aware that a go-around would have been to late, so why pull the nose up when reversers are kicking in? Also the engines were purposly in reverse until full stop, since they would never be used again afterwards FOD was not a concern.
Looking at the videos the first impression may be 'what a stunt', however it was practiced and planned well in advance, resulting in a successful landing.
However Kallbach admitted such a landing would never be approved again by the authorities today or after Germany's unification, so they were under some time pressure.

Regards,
Loran
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:35 am

WPvsMW wrote:
but the landing at issue was pure luck after the pilot's misjudging this particular unimproved "airstrip".

I cannot find a source but I remember the field has been "improved" by compaction with steamrollers.

Loran wrote:
I recall reading the nose up attitude after ground contact was purposly done to increase drag

That's correct. Here is an excerpt from the co-pilot's report. Unfortunately, I didn't find an English version:

Auszug aus dem Originalbericht des Co - Piloten:

Die Landestrecke für diesen Flugzeugtyp beträgt bei INA-Bedingungen und Flugplatzhöhe null Meter unter Berücksichtigung eines sonst üblichen Sicherheitsfaktors von 1.67 für 105.0 t Landegewicht 2 760 m. Interflug rechnet mit einem Sicherheitsfaktor von 1.43. Daraus ergibt sich für die obigen Angaben eine berechnete Landestrecke von 2 360 m.

Aus den Berechnungen für die Landung in Stölln ergab sich nach Sicherheitsfaktor 1.43 unter konkreten Bedingungen eine erforderliche Landestrecke von 1 800 m.

Um in Stölln eine Landung erfolgreich durchführen zu können, mußte geprüft werden, ob unter Vernachlässigung aller Sicherheitsfaktoren und bei Veränderung der Landemethode die für diesen Zweck zur Verfügung stehenden 900 m unbefestigte Landestrecke ausreichen können.

… Für die Bremsung des Flugzeuges nach dem Aufsetzen in Stölln wurden pro gebremstes Rad 9 t Bremskraft ermittelt. Um ein Einbrechen der Räder in die Grasnarbe zu verringern, wurde im ersten Teil des Landeprozesses durch einen hohen Anstellwinkel des Flugzeuges die Tangentialkraft an den Rädern verringert. Somit erfolgte ein erster Geschwindigkeitsabbau von ca. 80 km/h.

Ab 150 km/h wurde das Bugrad abgesenkt und die Radbremsen eingesetzt. Dabei erfolgte das Einbrechen der Räder in die Grasnarbe mit tiefer werdender Spur. Kurz vor dem Stillstand wurden ganze Bodenschollen herausgerissen …

Peter Bley
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:11 pm

Loran, Good Morning Many thanks for Your explanation, I did not know particularities, but I know that it follow a very well preparation, (14 month!)
I repeat, for me, an oustanding well prepared and ejecuted landing in a grass strip with many negative factors: slope...

Rgds
 
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barney captain
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:15 pm

Apprentice wrote:
barney captain wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
He also says that the plane landed with just two engines as to be able to start the other two and taxi to the final resting spot which is a bit away.


Suspicions confirmed - judgment = zero.

SMH

I found interesting how many people write in this forum, w/o knowing.
Il 62M, engines 1&4 get Reversers, eng 2& 3 does not. They rest at flight idle during landing for possible Go around at full power.
This kind of landings do not allow a go-around, so, Engine 2 & 3... better be s/down to avoid FOD ingestion and have them ready for Ground taxi-Ground Operation

Please do not criticized w/o knowing!

Rgds


I find it interesting how you - as a non pilot - are so certain that those of us with the knowledge and experience are wrong about this. That landing was poorly executed - and a near disaster. Your first sentence says it all.
 
Flaps
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:44 pm

Having watched the video half a dozen times back to back:

1. I think his technique was fine.
2. Initial touchdown point was right on that hump causing an ugly bounce.
3. I also think he did a pretty damn good job of recovering from said bounce.

I will agree that they did almost lose it entirely. I differ from those upstream though indicating that it was a poorly flown approach. I see it as a very unfortunate touchdown point (I suppose a case could be made that this was caused by a poor approach although I blame the surface) followed by a serious bounce and a skilled recovery.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:23 pm

I agree the approach was fine... but after 14 months of prep, the prep should have included MARKING the threshold and touchdown. How about a WIND SOCK, or even a flag? The pilot should have avoided touching down on the large hump (... touching down on the worst possible place in the airstrip), and should not have overcontrolled. I cast equal blame on the "airport operator" as on the cockpit. Moreover, why not wait for a wind direction that would permit an UPHILL landing? Arrogance on the ground and over-confidence in the air. Common sense took a holiday.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:28 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Moreover, why not wait for a wind direction that would permit an UPHILL landing?

That’s exactly what I asked myself since beginning of this thread but, honestly, I didn’t dare to ask since I thought there must be an easy explanation... So to all the pilots out there, why not uphill?
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:34 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
I agree the approach was fine... but after 14 months of prep, the prep should have included MARKING the threshold and touchdown. How about a WIND SOCK, or even a flag? The pilot should have avoided touching down on the large hump (... touching down on the worst possible place in the airstrip), and should not have overcontrolled. I cast equal blame on the "airport operator" as on the cockpit. Moreover, why not wait for a wind direction that would permit an UPHILL landing? Arrogance on the ground and over-confidence in the air. Common sense took a holiday.


AND... no trees to clear on approach if the landing were uphill.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:57 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
I agree the approach was fine... but after 14 months of prep, the prep should have included MARKING the threshold and touchdown. How about a WIND SOCK, or even a flag? The pilot should have avoided touching down on the large hump (... touching down on the worst possible place in the airstrip), and should not have overcontrolled. I cast equal blame on the "airport operator" as on the cockpit. Moreover, why not wait for a wind direction that would permit an UPHILL landing? Arrogance on the ground and over-confidence in the air. Common sense took a holiday.


AND... no trees to clear on approach if the landing were uphill.


On the other hand - trees to crash into if they found themselves unable to stop the thing. Might have been a consideration, but I can't find any source material about the decision to land in that direction.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:51 am

“I find it interesting how you - as a non pilot - are so certain that those of us with the knowledge and experience are wrong about this. That landing was poorly executed - and a near disaster. Your first sentence says it all.“

Hi, Captain, fyi, I work as a Technician (mechanic), supervisor & MOC from 1984 to 1993 with several russian types, including IL-62M.

To properly determine Your experience, how many hours did You flight on Russian Planes or at least on VC-10? How many hours as a First Pilot, and last question, Have You ever perform a Landing of a big plane (B-707, for example) on similar strip?

Aside, in those countries, decision like when or when not, was never taken by Pilots or Mechanics.. For the same reason, refusing was not a real option
Rgds
 
rbavfan
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:46 am

NearMiss wrote:
What I could extract with my very limited German skills is that the plane was intentionally landed on that grass field (It was already WFU) in order to be preserved as a tribute to an aviation pioneer. Mad skills from the pilot as it only took 900m from touchdown to stop the plane.


It was also very light from the internal pics most all seats & cabin fittings were removed. Thats a lot or weight reduction.
 
WIederling
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:04 am

rbavfan wrote:
It was also very light from the internal pics most all seats & cabin fittings were removed. Thats a lot or weight reduction.


from the Blob in German further up:
Excerpt from the original report of the co-pilot:

The landing distance for this type of aircraft is zero meters under INA conditions and aerodrome altitude, taking into account a usual safety factor of 1.67 for 105.0 t landing weight 2 760 m. Interflug expects a safety factor of 1.43. This results in a calculated landing distance of 2 360 m for the above information.

The calculations for the landing in Stölln yielded a required landing distance of 1 800 m under conditions of safety factor 1.43.

In order to be able to successfully land at Stölln, it had to be examined whether the 900 m of unpaved land available for this purpose could be sufficient, ignoring all safety factors and changing the landing method.

... For the braking of the aircraft after landing in Stölln 9 t braking force were determined per braked wheel. In order to reduce the wheels breaking into the turf, the tangential force on the wheels was reduced in the first part of the landing process by a high angle of attack of the aircraft. Thus, a first speed reduction of about 80 km
 
Noshow
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:15 am

To sum things up: It was very well prepared, they knew the field exatly, the were very experienced with the airplane, they handled the landing as planned and it was still very dangerous and close to disaster. So no glorification needed.
 
Max Q
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:26 am

Apprentice wrote:
“I find it interesting how you - as a non pilot - are so certain that those of us with the knowledge and experience are wrong about this. That landing was poorly executed - and a near disaster. Your first sentence says it all.“

Hi, Captain, fyi, I work as a Technician (mechanic), supervisor & MOC from 1984 to 1993 with several russian types, including IL-62M.

To properly determine Your experience, how many hours did You flight on Russian Planes or at least on VC-10? How many hours as a First Pilot, and last question, Have You ever perform a Landing of a big plane (B-707, for example) on similar strip?

Aside, in those countries, decision like when or when not, was never taken by Pilots or Mechanics.. For the same reason, refusing was not a real option
Rgds



You don’t have to be qualified on an IL62
to judge that landing


Barney Captain’s assessment as an experienced pilot is spot on, I couldn’t agree more
 
ELBOB
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:18 am

barney captain wrote:

I find it interesting how you - as a non pilot - are so certain that those of us with the knowledge and experience are wrong about this. That landing was poorly executed - and a near disaster. Your first sentence says it all.


Yet you can evaluate it from a clip which is an excerpt from the whole event, excluding the flypast and first go-around approach? From a single camera angle?

Every 'criticism' of that landing has already been explained.

As for waiting for the wind to change to the reciprocal; wait for how long? And then scramble to get the Il-62 ready to fly and airborne before the wind changed back to the prevailing direction? That's just asking for haste and mistakes.
Last edited by ELBOB on Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
SkyVoice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:20 am

Noshow wrote:
To sum things up: It was very well prepared, they knew the field exatly, the were very experienced with the airplane, they handled the landing as planned and it was still very dangerous and close to disaster. So no glorification needed.


No, you are absolutely right. Unfortunately, common sense answers (such as yours) do not generate as many clicks as knee-jerk answers do!
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:30 am

ELBOB wrote:
As for waiting for the wind to change to the reciprocal; wait for how long? And then scramble to get the Il-62 ready to fly and airborne before the wind changed back to the prevailing direction? That's just asking for haste and mistakes.

I don't think this would have been an issue. The airfield has an east-west-orientation. In Germany we usually have stable conditions with prevailing wind direction from East or West.
The landing took place in October. In that time we usually have winds blowing from the West.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:26 am

Let's assume the pilot was Capt. Amazing... what about the ground side? No wind sock, no threshold or touchdown markings .... and how about marking the hazards, like the hump he landed on.

And... he landed with a tailwind, downhill. Check out where the dust cloud goes at 1:50, after reverse thrust stopped. Capt. Lucky, not Capt. Amazing.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:35 am

Hi:, I wanted to know date:
+On 23rd October 1989 an Ilyushin Il-62 airliner DDR-SEG was intentionally landed on the 900m grass airfield of Stölln / Rhinow in what was an extremely risky manoeuvre.”
It is clear, still East Germany, in the last minutes. For me that factor is important, may be some one will aport more details.
On the other side, I’m no seeing Wind Socks, nor special marks, but it means only that from a video, I’m not able to see them.
Is Captain or some one from that crew able to give his/her impressions? (I would rather prefer an ex-crew description that especulations from “0” flying hours captains, without any experience with soviets, long / heavy planes with engines located in the tail)

Rgds
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:49 am

Hi: When arguing about an aircraft landing, I would like, that a knoweledge person give initilal data.
Sorry if I’m wrong, my sources are not officials:

Landing Distance (m) 2500. (Of course @ Maximun Landing Weight)
Stölln airfield distance: (m) 900.

A/c Landed in less that 36% of requiered/ published Landing Distance
Did I heard before “KUDOS FOR. CAPTAIN AMAZING?

Rgds
 
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Loran
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:54 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Let's assume the pilot was Capt. Amazing... what about the ground side? No wind sock, no threshold or touchdown markings .... and how about marking the hazards, like the hump he landed on.

And... he landed with a tailwind, downhill. Check out where the dust cloud goes at 1:50, after reverse thrust stopped. Capt. Lucky, not Capt. Amazing.


Why don't you do some research first? Stölln/Rhinow is a ICAO-registered airport, it has a code (EDOR), it therefore has a windsock, fire brigade, (mobile) tower with ATC, it has the typical runway markers used on grass runways. It's not so difficult, just look at photos or the mentioned videos.

In regards to the landing direction, the opposite Rwy 08 is more dangerous due to the hard stop with the trees at the East-end in case they landed a few meters long. The West-end has a road and small ditch right in front of the threshold, also a hill in the extended approach. Rwy 26 was the better choice due to prevailing winds and despite the downhill slope.

In regards to the wind direction, please use some common sense. Even a minor tail wind component would have thrown over their landing distance calculation. As mentioned the crew had some time pressure to get the aircraft onto the ground, but it was a matter of months. It was therefore no problem to wait for a day with westerly winds, which is as mentioned the case in Germany 90% of the time.

Judging the wind direction from the video is unappropriate from my point of view. If you accelerate the air foward (i.e. due to the movement of the aircraft and reversers), the air will continue the movement for a bit longer, same as if you stood next to a train, bus or truck.

Regards,
Loran
Last edited by Loran on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:05 am

WIederling wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Not impressed.


You are an accomplished IL-62 pilot?
How many hours under your belt?


I’m not sure why it matters that it’s an IL-62? Is porpoising a large jet airliner until you nearly crash-land the nosewheel into the ground good technique on Russian jets?

In fairness, it’s possible that, given the circumstances, the guy’s experience is the only thing that kept things in the *near* part of the near-disaster column. In reality, though, (and this is based on the myriad of videos I’ve seen over the years), Russian pilots, especially Soviet ones, just don’t GAF.
Last edited by N766UA on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
WIederling
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:23 am

Apprentice wrote:
Did I heard before “KUDOS FOR. CAPTAIN AMAZING?


Won't happen. non USers can at best only be exceptionally lucky. no achievement to see.
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:26 am

WIederling wrote:
Apprentice wrote:
Did I heard before “KUDOS FOR. CAPTAIN AMAZING?


Won't happen. non USers can at best only be exceptionally lucky. no achievement to see.


I’m not gonna openly criticize the guy as I consider that to be bad form and bad luck, but I will say this... Kudos? It doesn’t matter what nationality you are, if that was my landing, I’d be $#!+8!ng my pants.
 
WIederling
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:32 am

N766UA wrote:
I’m not sure why it matters that it’s an IL-62? Is porpoising a large jet airliner until you nearly crash-land the nosewheel into the ground good technique on Russian jets?

I’ll ask you the same question: how many hours do you have flying passengers for a living? I trust Barney has a ton, he’s been on his forum for a long time...


You miss the detail that this plane was in no case expected to leave that landing place ever again.

As an engineer I have been in contact with (alleged or real) professionals all my work life.
They come in colors from exceptionally good down to industrial actor hue.
... and I've learned to assay claimed proficiencies and their applicability to another problem.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:34 am

Hi: only from pictures, it look to me a/c DDR=SEG is an IL-62 with NK8-2, instead of IL-62M with more capable D30KU..
Any confirmation or a link for East Germany a/c register.?

And from Manufacturer’s web site:

Landing distance, m 1 150, (although for D30KU)
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:35 am

WIederling wrote:
N766UA wrote:
I’m not sure why it matters that it’s an IL-62? Is porpoising a large jet airliner until you nearly crash-land the nosewheel into the ground good technique on Russian jets?

I’ll ask you the same question: how many hours do you have flying passengers for a living? I trust Barney has a ton, he’s been on his forum for a long time...


You miss the detail that this plane was in no case expected to leave that landing place ever again.

As an engineer I have been in contact with (alleged or real) professionals all my work life.
They come in colors from exceptionally good down to industrial actor hue.
... and I've learned to assay claimed proficiencies and their applicability to another problem.


I’m not sure why it’s even up for debate? Whether the airplane was supposed to fly again or not, whether the sky had clouds in it or not, whether the crew had their coffee or not... THAT was a scary landing.

I appreciate the people asking that we not judge the pilot so harshly, but you absolutely cannot argue that *that* particular landing wasn’t nearly a disaster.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:40 am

Concerning landing technique, in FM clear indicates that in such Landings, when a/c need to be stop asap, proper procedure will be to drop a/c instead of a kiss landing. Thus making sustentation force in the wing to equal “0”, and to make brakes more effective..
Rgds
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:45 am

Apprentice wrote:
Concerning landing technique, in FM clear indicates that in such Landings, when a/c need to be stop asap, proper procedure will be to drop a/c instead of a kiss landing. Thus making sustentation force in the wing to equal “0”, and to make brakes more effective..
Rgds


The correct technique is to accept a firm landing. The problem in the video is that he *bounced*. Bouncing does not equate to maximum braking effectiveness.
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:47 am

Loran wrote:
N766UA wrote:
I appreciate the people asking that we not judge the pilot so harshly, but you absolutely cannot argue that *that* particular landing wasn’t nearly a disaster.

Can you please elaborate what exactly made it a "nearly disaster"? I think most of the technical points have been clarified.

I am not saying this was business as usual, but I am the opinion that the crew prepared and executed this challenging landing quite well. Of course the margin for error was small, but due to the crew's experience and preparation I cannot see anything which makes me think this was a "nearly disaster".

Regards,
Loran


Absolutely! Minute 1:20 in the video is what gave me that impression. Bounce, porpoise, and a nose-down attitude with the ground lift system deploying. Check out the video of the Challenger crash in Aspen, CO.

Our training has been that if you bounce a landing like that, you have to go around, because recovering from said bounce is extremely difficult, at best. Our training also says don’t land in meadows, so maybe it’s not 100% relevant...
Last edited by N766UA on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Loran
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:48 am

N766UA wrote:
I appreciate the people asking that we not judge the pilot so harshly, but you absolutely cannot argue that *that* particular landing wasn’t nearly a disaster.

Can you please elaborate what exactly made it a "nearly disaster"? I think most of the technical points have been clarified.

I am not saying this was business as usual, but I am the opinion that the crew prepared and executed this challenging landing quite well. Of course the margin for error was small, but due to the crew's experience and preparation I cannot see anything which makes me think this was a "nearly disaster".

Regards,
Loran
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:50 am

Apprentice wrote:
N766 UA, hi, I don’t know this Captains and I ‘m not a German, just, in my opinion and with few knowledges I have from this a/c, I consider this as a landing under the same category of WWII landings, “any landing from which You may leave walking...”

I will not openly criticize You, since I understand You do only normal landings on US’s airports and may be will be never be picked for such a Landing,
Just sorry.

Rgds


Don’t be sorry! I actually think your comment earlier about how, in the Soviet system, pilots don’t really have a choice was about the most relevent thing I read here! For all we know the captain thought it was a terrible idea but was pressured into it.

Generally speaking, it was a bad-looking landing, but I’m absolutely not saying I could have done a better job in any way! And, regardless, it makes for a fun video to watch!
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:53 am

N766 UA, hi, I don’t know this Captains and I ‘m not a German, just, in my opinion and with few knowledges I have from this a/c, I consider this as a landing under the same category of WWII landings, “any landing from which You may leave walking...”

I will not openly criticize You, since I understand You do only normal landings on US’s airports and may be will be never be picked for such a Landing,
Just sorry.

Rgds
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:59 am

Apprentice wrote:
Hi:
“The correct technique is to accept a firm landing. The problem in the video is that he *bounced*. Bouncing does not equate to maximum braking effectiveness.”
Disagree, bounce in an Airport Landing Strip, with all conditions, hapen. In such a strip, ......
Do You have any reference from IL-62M FM?. May be any modification was introduced lately, but back in 2004, “Drop Landing” was still in force and was a theme od discussions because braking was not understood well.

Rgds


No, but I know what you’re talking about because I’ve flown a myriad of airplanes. When you say “drop landing,” you mean a firm landing where one does not “float” the airplane or try for a nice, smooth touchdown. The goal is just to get the airplane on the ground, get the spoilers out, and get weight on the wheels.

You’re entirely correct, I suspect, in saying that’s what he was doing. Unfortunately, he landed too hard for the given surface and bounced the airplane, which completely negates your argument as a bounce will add significant distance to your landing roll, not reduce it. I agree completely that bounces happen, but I absolutely disagree that he was trying to bounce the airplane as some kind of technique.
Last edited by N766UA on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:59 am

N766UA wrote:
Apprentice wrote:
Hi:
“The correct technique is to accept a firm landing. The problem in the video is that he *bounced*. Bouncing does not equate to maximum braking effectiveness.”
Disagree, bounce in an Airport Landing Strip, with all conditions, hapen. In such a strip, ......
Do You have any reference from IL-62M FM?. May be any modification was introduced lately, but back in 2004, “Drop Landing” was still in force and was a theme od discussions because braking was not understood well.

Rgds


No, but I know what you’re talking about because I’ve flown a myriad of airplanes. When you say “drop landing,” you mean a firm landing where one does not “float” the airplane or try for a nice, smooth touchdown. The goal is just to get the airplane on the ground, get the spoilers out, and get weight on the wheels.

You’re entirely correct, I suspect, in saying that’s what he was doing. Unfortunately, he landed too hard for the given surface and bounced the airplane, which completely negates your argument as a bounce will add significant distance to your landing roll, not reduce it.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:03 pm

Hi:
“The correct technique is to accept a firm landing. The problem in the video is that he *bounced*. Bouncing does not equate to maximum braking effectiveness.”
Disagree, bounce in an Airport Landing Strip, with all conditions, hapen. In such a strip, ......
Do You have any reference from IL-62M FM?. May be any modification was introduced lately, but back in 2004, “Drop Landing” was still in force and was a theme od discussions because braking was not understood well.

Rgds
 
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Loran
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:10 pm

N766UA wrote:
Absolutely! Minute 1:20 in the video is what gave me that impression. Bounce, porpoise, and a nose-down attitude with the ground lift system deploying. Check out the video of the Challenger crash in Aspen, CO.

Are ground lift devices the spoilers? I only see them deploying *after* the bounce. Also, the impact on the front landing gear is in sync with the mains, no where near that it snapped, as someone claimed earlier. In fact, Ilyushins and Antonovs quite regularly land on the front landing gear. In general landing gears of Soviet airliners are far more stable than their western counterparts, due to the bad runway coinditions.
I agree the bounce was not helping, but I guess given the short touchdown window he had it was hard to avoid. I am still the opinion that given the challenging conditions it was eventually fine with the bounce.

Regards,
Loran
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:15 pm

Loran wrote:
N766UA wrote:
Absolutely! Minute 1:20 in the video is what gave me that impression. Bounce, porpoise, and a nose-down attitude with the ground lift system deploying. Check out the video of the Challenger crash in Aspen, CO.

Are ground lift devices the spoilers? I only see them deploying *after* the bounce. Also, the impact on the front landing gear is in sync with the mains, no where near that it snapped, as someone claimed earlier. In fact, Ilyushins and Antonovs quite regularly land on the front landing gear. In general landing gears of Soviet airliners are far more stable than their western counterparts, due to the bad runway coinditions.
I agree the bounce was not helping, but I guess given the short touchdown window he had it was hard to avoid. I am still the opinion that given the challenging conditions it was eventually fine with the bounce.

Regards,
Loran


Haha alright, fine, I’ll withdraw my near-disaster comment under protest. You are right about their rather robust gear.

It wasn’t pretty, though. The first half had the makings of an accident, but I do actually think he did a good job of saving it. Like I said, I don’t think I’d have done any better.
 
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Loran
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:42 pm

N766UA wrote:
Haha alright, fine, I’ll withdraw my near-disaster comment under protest. You are right about their rather robust gear.

It wasn’t pretty, though. The first half had the makings of an accident, but I do actually think he did a good job of saving it. Like I said, I don’t think I’d have done any better.

Agreed :smile:

I've been on various "similar" landings. For example an Il-14 pushing down steeply after a tree line to make use of the full landing distance, or an Il-76 scheduled flight which landed nose-first. I have also been to Polyarny Airport (PYJ) in Siberia, where in summer only a Tu-154 or An-24 can land, but no 737, due to the bad runway condition.
And I agree the bounce probably wasn't planned, but difficult to avoid and he managed the recovery well.

Regards,
Loran
 
N766UA
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:20 pm

Loran wrote:
N766UA wrote:
Haha alright, fine, I’ll withdraw my near-disaster comment under protest. You are right about their rather robust gear.

It wasn’t pretty, though. The first half had the makings of an accident, but I do actually think he did a good job of saving it. Like I said, I don’t think I’d have done any better.

Agreed :smile:

I've been on various "similar" landings. For example an Il-14 pushing down steeply after a tree line to make use of the full landing distance, or an Il-76 scheduled flight which landed nose-first. I have also been to Polyarny Airport (PYJ) in Siberia, where in summer only a Tu-154 or An-24 can land, but no 737, due to the bad runway condition.
And I agree the bounce probably wasn't planned, but difficult to avoid and he managed the recovery well.

Regards,
Loran


Something else to consider is that the airplane was, as previously stated, basically stripped out. He may have had thousands of hours in Ilyushins, but how many hours did he have in stripped-out, crazy light Ilyushins? Any professional pilot knows an empty plane handles differently from a full airplane.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:54 pm

N766UA wrote:
Apprentice wrote:
Concerning landing technique, in FM clear indicates that in such Landings, when a/c need to be stop asap, proper procedure will be to drop a/c instead of a kiss landing. Thus making sustentation force in the wing to equal “0”, and to make brakes more effective..
Rgds


The correct technique is to accept a firm landing. The problem in the video is that he *bounced*. Bouncing does not equate to maximum braking effectiveness.

A firm landing might be the correct technique on a proper paved runway. On a grass strip, with a plane this size, your firm landing and excellent braking are likely turn your aircraft into a high-speed plough, and that's probably not going to end very well. At the very least, it's going to mean quite an operation to dig/hoist the plane out of the ground before you can move it again.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:36 pm

A good landing is when you can fly the airplane again.

And here, the plane was already written off. Playing dirty and dunking the plane into the soil is the right thing to do.


David
 
Apprentice
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Re: Interflug IL-62 Landing on a Grass Field???

Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:37 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
A good landing is when you can fly the airplane again.
And here, the plane was already written off. Playing dirty and dunking the plane into the soil is the right thing to do.
David


Hi: that mission, did not contemplate “fly the airplane again”

“Our training has been that if you bounce a landing like that, you have to go around, because recovering from said bounce is extremely difficult, at best. Our trailing also says don’t land in meadows, so maybe it’s not 100% relevant...”

I hope You have been not trained for such landings. And best expectation for Mx waiting for Your plane at destination is that Plane was not involved in a Hard Landing. In such Landings (hard), if nothing is found broken, some 2 xtra hours of Mx check is need to perform and sign Hard Landing Check

Rgds

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