Qantas59
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Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:06 pm

Up until sometime in the 1990s AZ only flew from FCO to GIG nonstop before continuing to GRU (VCP) or EZE. My question is does anyone know when AZ began nonstop service from FCO to GRU and EZE? Was this perhaps when the MD-11 entered service?
Thanks for any replies.
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dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:47 pm

You are correct. The MD11 enabled AZ to offer non stop service to EZE for the first time around the early 90s time frame. GIG & GRU were within range of the 742.

Interestingly and as a precursor to the non stop flights, AZ operated for years a FCO-EZE-FCO service with a single stop at DKR, with the DC-10-30 and before that, with the DC-8-62. This was in the 70s.
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MalevTU134
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:54 pm

dcajet wrote:
You are correct. The MD11 enabled AZ to offer non stop service to EZE for the first time around the early 90s time frame. GIG & GRU were within range of the 742.

Interestingly and as a precursor to the non stop flights, AZ operated for years a FCO-EZE-FCO service with a single stop at DKR, with the DC-10-30 and before that, with the DC-8-62. This was in the 70s.

Interesting, wasn't aware of that, although shouldn't be surprised, since DKR was used by many airlines as a stop between Europe and South America back then. I guess that true to the times, AZ had full traffic rights DKR-EZE-DKR?
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:24 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
You are correct. The MD11 enabled AZ to offer non stop service to EZE for the first time around the early 90s time frame. GIG & GRU were within range of the 742.

Interestingly and as a precursor to the non stop flights, AZ operated for years a FCO-EZE-FCO service with a single stop at DKR, with the DC-10-30 and before that, with the DC-8-62. This was in the 70s.


Interesting, wasn't aware of that, although shouldn't be surprised, since DKR was used by many airlines as a stop between Europe and South America back then. I guess that true to the times, AZ had full traffic rights DKR-EZE-DKR?


It appears they did; this is from 1972.

http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/az/ ... 726-08.jpg
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MalevTU134
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:31 pm

dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
You are correct. The MD11 enabled AZ to offer non stop service to EZE for the first time around the early 90s time frame. GIG & GRU were within range of the 742.

Interestingly and as a precursor to the non stop flights, AZ operated for years a FCO-EZE-FCO service with a single stop at DKR, with the DC-10-30 and before that, with the DC-8-62. This was in the 70s.


Interesting, wasn't aware of that, although shouldn't be surprised, since DKR was used by many airlines as a stop between Europe and South America back then. I guess that true to the times, AZ had full traffic rights DKR-EZE-DKR?


It appears they did; this is from 1972.

http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/az/ ... 726-08.jpg

Thank you!!!
Although, it says in the notes on the bottom right that on some sectors traffic right restrictions apply. So, who knows?
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 pm

In any case, who'd travel from Argentina to Senegal back in the 70s? Refueling and a crew change, for sure. Last time I was in Buenos Aires I found out there is a growing Senegalese immigrant community there. Who knew?

Goes to show the importance of EZE for the AZ network, dating back to the 70s; as well as the ties between Italy and Argentina.
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Coal
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:39 pm

AZ also flew FCO-BOG-CCS-FCO. Flew that route in 1993.
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LatinPlane
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:55 am

Alitalia also flew into LIM.
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jghealey
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:16 am

There's probably not enough demand to send a 777 down there - and I'm pretty sure the only aircraft in Alitalia's fleet with the range are the 777s.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:21 pm

jghealey wrote:
There's probably not enough demand to send a 777 down there - and I'm pretty sure the only aircraft in Alitalia's fleet with the range are the 777s.

If you by "down there" mean Buenos Aires, then I believe you are wrong. Traditionally, Buenos Aires has been one of a less than a handful long haul destinations that have been profitable for AZ.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:15 pm

LatinPlane wrote:
Alitalia also flew into LIM.


Like most European airlines in the 70s, AZ had a robust South American network, that included cities such as MVD in addition to the already mentioned LIM & BOG. Reality then sunk in, not just for AZ but for most airlines. Iberia is the one that, for obvious reasons, has been able to maintain a thriving network in Central & South America, but even so, they do not fly to every country as they once did e.g. Paraguay or Bolivia.

In the early 70s, even SABENA flew to EZE!
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PA12
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:48 pm

Jghealy, about "down there", you probably know very little. Argentina's diaspora is mostly european especially Italy and Spain, then germany , france, wales, poland, croatia, eastern europe, scandinavians, etc, and lebanese, and syrians, some japanese, koreans, and chinese.
More recent, peruvians bolivians, paraguayans, etc.
Yes the demand and occupation for both AZ and AR between EZE and FCO is very high, both fly daily, AZ is going to start some of its flights with the 77W.
 
PA12
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:50 pm

Jghealy, sorry but about "down there", you probably know very little. Argentina's diaspora is mostly european especially Italy and Spain, then germany , france, wales, poland, croatia, eastern europe, scandinavians, etc, and lebanese, and syrians, some japanese, koreans, and chinese.
More recent, peruvians bolivians, paraguayans, etc.
Yes the demand and occupation for both AZ and AR between EZE and FCO is very high, both fly daily, AZ is going to start some of its flights with the 77W.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:06 am

PA12 wrote:
Jghealy, about "down there", you probably know very little. Argentina's diaspora is mostly european especially Italy and Spain, then germany , france, wales, poland, croatia, eastern europe, scandinavians, etc, and lebanese, and syrians, some japanese, koreans, and chinese.
More recent, peruvians bolivians, paraguayans, etc.
Yes the demand and occupation for both AZ and AR between EZE and FCO is very high, both fly daily, AZ is going to start some of its flights with the 77W.


And now Venezuelans, at a rate of 10,000/month in 2018.

http://www.perfil.com/noticias/sociedad ... anos.phtml
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PA12
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:29 am

Yes, I forgot about the Venezuelans, lots of colombians too.
 
FatCat
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:27 am

AZ's routes to South America are the last profitable ones since a long time... sure EZE, GIG, CCS and BOG but also MEX are worth a 77E from FCO...
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dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:35 pm

FatCat wrote:
AZ's routes to South America are the last profitable ones since a long time... sure EZE, GIG, CCS and BOG but also MEX are worth a 77E from FCO...


With the caveat that AZ has not operated in BOG for a few decades now and they were one of the first European airlines - if not the first - to pack up and leave CCS. They added SCL to their network last year; all are served with the 77E except GIG that sees the A332 and EZE that will be served with the 77W on same days/week beginning this coming fall.
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luckyone
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:24 pm

jghealey wrote:
There's probably not enough demand to send a 777 down there - and I'm pretty sure the only aircraft in Alitalia's fleet with the range are the 777s.

There is robust demand between the two countries. Italians (initially Northern Italians, Southerners came later) made up close to half of post-colonial immigration to Argentina. Subsequently, over half of the population of Argentina has some level of Italian ancestry. A lot of business ties followed them, and until pretty recently the Italian government supported its overseas diaspora. My other half grew up in the Italian diaspora in Southern Brazil (similar immigration trend, but they received mostly Northern Italians), and tells stories of being a kid and having various ministers from the Italian government visit "la colonia" with regularity, having Italian cultural institutions and events supported by the Italian government, etc etc. Now, Italy is making it pretty easy for a lot of those Italians to come back. Same deal in Argentina.
 
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Mistral1
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:37 pm

AZ also flew to SCL from the ‘70s twice weekly until the mid 90’s. Then it resumed the route in 2016 and, as far as I know, it’s been a very succesful one.
 
FatCat
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:53 pm

dcajet wrote:
FatCat wrote:
AZ's routes to South America are the last profitable ones since a long time... sure EZE, GIG, CCS and BOG but also MEX are worth a 77E from FCO...


With the caveat that AZ has not operated in BOG for a few decades now and they were one of the first European airlines - if not the first - to pack up and leave CCS. They added SCL to their network last year; all are served with the 77E except GIG that sees the A332 and EZE that will be served with the 77W on same days/week beginning this coming fall.

So they have to manage the single 77W FCO-JFK and FCO-EZE...
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dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:32 pm

FatCat wrote:
dcajet wrote:
FatCat wrote:
AZ's routes to South America are the last profitable ones since a long time... sure EZE, GIG, CCS and BOG but also MEX are worth a 77E from FCO...


With the caveat that AZ has not operated in BOG for a few decades now and they were one of the first European airlines - if not the first - to pack up and leave CCS. They added SCL to their network last year; all are served with the 77E except GIG that sees the A332 and EZE that will be served with the 77W on same days/week beginning this coming fall.


So they have to manage the single 77W FCO-JFK and FCO-EZE...


That is the plan.
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LIPZ
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:35 pm

In the winter season the 77W is scheduled to fly only to EZE and GRU (both 2xw)
 
MedFlyerArg85
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:13 pm

I flew EZE-FCO on 04/01/1992, MD11 (I-DUPE) and the way back -45 days later- was on their B742: FCO-GIG-EZE.
Flown: B717 - B722 - B732 - B737 - B738 - B742 - B744 - B762 - B789 - MD82 - MD83 - MD11 - A306 - A320 - A321 - A319 - A330 - J32 - SF340 - ATR72-600
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:46 pm

BTW does anyone know the whereabouts of AZ 77W recently?
 
MOWairports
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:48 pm

SU used to fly SVO-EZE till 1998 on so classic IL-96. Via GRU and Sal/Tunisia/Malta. About 10 years earlier it serviced EZE with IL-62 through Dakar and Recife/Salvador but not sure.
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MalevTU134
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:49 pm

MOWairports wrote:
SU used to fly SVO-EZE till 1998 on so classic IL-96. Via GRU and Sal/Tunisia/Malta. About 10 years earlier it serviced EZE with IL-62 through Dakar and Recife/Salvador but not sure.

I flew SU on SVO-GIG in 1995 on an ILW (IL86). Routing was SVO-LCA-TUN-SID-GRU-GIG. On the way back it was GIG-SID-LCA-SVO. Both ways at takeoff from SID I was convinced we would overrun the runway. It took foreeeeever before we rotated. Must have been like that famous photo of tbe IL86 taking off from HKT.
 
MOWairports
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:57 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
MOWairports wrote:
SU used to fly SVO-EZE till 1998 on so classic IL-96. Via GRU and Sal/Tunisia/Malta. About 10 years earlier it serviced EZE with IL-62 through Dakar and Recife/Salvador but not sure.

I flew SU on SVO-GIG in 1995 on an ILW (IL86). Routing was SVO-LCA-TUN-SID-GRU-GIG. On the way back it was GIG-SID-LCA-SVO. Both ways at takeoff from SID I was convinced we would overrun the runway. It took foreeeeever before we rotated. Must have been like that famous photo of tbe IL86 taking off from HKT.

I’m not sure LCA could have been in that chain. And also it surely was ‘96, not ILW.
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Mex87
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:59 pm

FatCat wrote:
AZ's routes to South America are the last profitable ones since a long time... sure EZE, GIG, CCS and BOG but also MEX are worth a 77E from FCO...


Except that MEX is about 3000 km north from South America. Mexico is part of North America. Maybe you meant Latin America. But yes! If I´m not mistaken, Argentina, Brazil and Venezuela have the largest numbers of italians outisde Italy, with family and economic ties, not only people of italian descent.

Might be a bit off-topic, but in other Latin American markets, I´ve heard that Chile and Mexico are doing well. SCL has no weight restrictions and the Boeing 77E has a good performance with a good LF. MEX, however, is another story, as most flights arrive with a decent load factor (including business), but AZ blocks seats on the flight back to Italy because of Mexico City hot-and-high status. Maybe a smaller aircraft (787, which Alitalia owns zero) could make it efficiently?
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:16 pm

ojjunior wrote:
BTW does anyone know the whereabouts of AZ 77W recently?


Flying FCO-JFK-FCO.
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dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:25 pm

MOWairports wrote:
SU used to fly SVO-EZE till 1998 on so classic IL-96. Via GRU and Sal/Tunisia/Malta. About 10 years earlier it serviced EZE with IL-62 through Dakar and Recife/Salvador but not sure.


SU started flying to EZE in 1983 with the IL-62M on the SVO-BUD-DKR-EZE route, once a week. It quickly cornered (together with LAP - Lineas Aereas Paraguayas) the ultra low fares market to Europe. SU would even throw in a stopover in Moscow with a city tour, etc. Around 1988 or 1989, the equipment was upgauged to the IL-86 with many stops along the way, on account of the IL-86's poor performance. I believe the route was SVO-Argel-Ilha do Sal-SSA-EZE... If the SU IL-96 ever operated to Argentina I have no recollection of, as by then I was already living in the US.

Back to AZ....
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dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:29 pm

LIPZ wrote:
In the winter season the 77W is scheduled to fly only to EZE and GRU (both 2xw)


Are the southbound GRU flights scheduled to be daytime flights? Otherwise it is not possible to cover 4 weekly red eyes to deep South America with just one frame.
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MalevTU134
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:07 pm

MOWairports wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
MOWairports wrote:
SU used to fly SVO-EZE till 1998 on so classic IL-96. Via GRU and Sal/Tunisia/Malta. About 10 years earlier it serviced EZE with IL-62 through Dakar and Recife/Salvador but not sure.

I flew SU on SVO-GIG in 1995 on an ILW (IL86). Routing was SVO-LCA-TUN-SID-GRU-GIG. On the way back it was GIG-SID-LCA-SVO. Both ways at takeoff from SID I was convinced we would overrun the runway. It took foreeeeever before we rotated. Must have been like that famous photo of tbe IL86 taking off from HKT.

I’m not sure LCA could have been in that chain. And also it surely was ‘96, not ILW.

I think I am a bit more sure than you are, since I was on that plane. LCA was definitely in what you call a chain and it was a ILW...otherwise there wouldn't have been any need for all those stops, right?
Also, SSA was in the timetable as a technical stop, both ways, but we never actually stopped there.
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:11 pm

From 1987 until 1991, I used to fly the FCO MXP FCO legs of the following flights:

FCO MXP CCS LIM
FCO MXP GIG GRU

Both flights might have been daily and both were operated by 747-100 or -200.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:12 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
You are correct. The MD11 enabled AZ to offer non stop service to EZE for the first time around the early 90s time frame. GIG & GRU were within range of the 742.

Interestingly and as a precursor to the non stop flights, AZ operated for years a FCO-EZE-FCO service with a single stop at DKR, with the DC-10-30 and before that, with the DC-8-62. This was in the 70s.

Interesting, wasn't aware of that, although shouldn't be surprised, since DKR was used by many airlines as a stop between Europe and South America back then. I guess that true to the times, AZ had full traffic rights DKR-EZE-DKR?


DKR was to South America what ANC was for Japan.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:23 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
You are correct. The MD11 enabled AZ to offer non stop service to EZE for the first time around the early 90s time frame. GIG & GRU were within range of the 742.

Interestingly and as a precursor to the non stop flights, AZ operated for years a FCO-EZE-FCO service with a single stop at DKR, with the DC-10-30 and before that, with the DC-8-62. This was in the 70s.

Interesting, wasn't aware of that, although shouldn't be surprised, since DKR was used by many airlines as a stop between Europe and South America back then. I guess that true to the times, AZ had full traffic rights DKR-EZE-DKR?


DKR was to South America what ANC was for Japan.


Very much so. And even some other more obscure African towns appeared as tech stops on the way to Brazil and Argentina: Monrovia and Freetown come to mind, with KLM and BCAL. The Canary Islands were also a frequent staging stop for Iberia in the early days!

FCOTSTW wrote:
From 1987 until 1991, I used to fly the FCO MXP FCO legs of the following flights:

FCO MXP CCS LIM
FCO MXP GIG GRU

Both flights might have been daily and both were operated by 747-100 or -200.


Not sure about CCS, but the AZ 747-100 never made it to South America's east coast. The 747-200 did, around 1981. It went from DC-8-43 to DC-8-62 to DC-10-30 to the 747-200 to the MD-11 to the existing 77E & 77W.
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FatCat
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:56 am

Mex87 wrote:
(787, which Alitalia owns zero)

And will never have
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dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:22 pm

FatCat wrote:
Mex87 wrote:
(787, which Alitalia owns zero)

And will never have


Well, stranger things have happened. AZ has shown to have more lives than an alley cat, thanks to the largess of Italy's politicians. You may have to stand corrected!
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LIPZ
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:34 pm

dcajet wrote:
LIPZ wrote:
In the winter season the 77W is scheduled to fly only to EZE and GRU (both 2xw)


Are the southbound GRU flights scheduled to be daytime flights? .


Yes they are


AZ 680 FCO EZE 2145 0755+1 (Mo)
AZ 681 EZE FCO 1355 0650+1 (Tu)

AZ 678 FCO GRU 1015 1935 (Th)
AZ 679 GRU FCO 2200 1200+1 (Th)

AZ 680 FCO EZE 2145 0755 +1 (Fr)
AZ 681 EZE FCO 1355 0650 +1 (Sa)

AZ 678 FCO GRU 1015 1935 (Su)
AZ 679 GRU FCO 2200 1200+1 (Su)
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia nonstop to South America (question)

Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:53 pm

LIPZ wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LIPZ wrote:
In the winter season the 77W is scheduled to fly only to EZE and GRU (both 2xw)


Are the southbound GRU flights scheduled to be daytime flights? .


Yes they are


AZ 680 FCO EZE 2145 0755+1 (Mo)
AZ 681 EZE FCO 1355 0650+1 (Tu)

AZ 678 FCO GRU 1015 1935 (Th)
AZ 679 GRU FCO 2200 1200+1 (Th)

AZ 680 FCO EZE 2145 0755 +1 (Fr)
AZ 681 EZE FCO 1355 0650 +1 (Sa)

AZ 678 FCO GRU 1015 1935 (Su)
AZ 679 GRU FCO 2200 1200+1 (Su)


Thanks - not so tight an operatin; allows 24 hs downtime at FCO on Wednesdays to work on the plane.
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