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A321Lufthansa
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Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:05 pm

I saw information (on the website lh-taufnamen.de) that Lufthansa plans to phase-out its oldest A320s (produced in 1989) this year. A week ago one of them (D-AIPH) was ferried from Frankfurt to Sofia. Does anyone have information if it is phase-out as promised earlier or just a maintenance?
Last flown aircrafts: A320 OE-LBL < A320 OE-LBU < A319 OE-LDE < A320 OE-LBZ < A320 D-AIPL < A319 D-AIBA < E190 HB-JVL < A320 HB-IJR < A321 VP-BKQ < A321 VP-BAV < A320 HB-JLP < BCS3 HB-JCB < A319 D-AILF < A320 D-AIPM
 
FatCat
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:32 am

With more Neos coming into service, we will see gradually the older birds being retired, for sure...
If I remember correctly, LH flies the oldest A320 still in service, built in 1988...
Also some of the 321-100s are pretty old high on cycles, when we will see the first 321Neos with the yellow crane?
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columba
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:00 am

FatCat wrote:
when we will see the first 321Neos with the yellow crane?


unless they get a retro paint scheme,,,,never ;-)
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:26 am

columba wrote:
FatCat wrote:
when we will see the first 321Neos with the yellow crane?


unless they get a retro paint scheme,,,,never ;-)

Lol, you're right.
Let's say with the white crane over dark blue 8-)
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mjoelnir
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:36 am

You find 20 old A320 at Lufthansa. The 20 A321-100 are slightly younger.

Lufthansa ordered 61 A320neo and 40 A321neo, plenty for exchanging the oldest A320 family aircraft. Additional to that Swiss has ordered 10 A320neo and 5 A321neo.
It will be interesting to see if some A320 family LH frames will move to Eurowings and Austrian Airlines, after the oldest LH frames are replaced and neos keep coming.
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:20 am

And on the other hand, on 2 A320s produced in 1990 (D-AIPR and D-AIPT) FlyNet was installed. But in Sofia LH also has its maintenance base so that’s why I am curious if it is a complete phase-out or maintenance. But none of 320s built in 1989 was equipped with FlyNet so that may be because of upcoming phase-out.
Last flown aircrafts: A320 OE-LBL < A320 OE-LBU < A319 OE-LDE < A320 OE-LBZ < A320 D-AIPL < A319 D-AIBA < E190 HB-JVL < A320 HB-IJR < A321 VP-BKQ < A321 VP-BAV < A320 HB-JLP < BCS3 HB-JCB < A319 D-AILF < A320 D-AIPM
 
stylo777
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:07 am

at one point those will be retired for sure, but the global aviation market is currently lacking 320/737 capacities with LHGroup not being any different thus my assumption of maintenance in SOF.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:17 am

LH is keeping them longer due to late deliveries of its NEOs. The question is how long, but I also bet it will be maintenance.
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:42 am

But they also return some less old A320s from Germanwings, the “newest”, D-AIQS, will come soon.
Last flown aircrafts: A320 OE-LBL < A320 OE-LBU < A319 OE-LDE < A320 OE-LBZ < A320 D-AIPL < A319 D-AIBA < E190 HB-JVL < A320 HB-IJR < A321 VP-BKQ < A321 VP-BAV < A320 HB-JLP < BCS3 HB-JCB < A319 D-AILF < A320 D-AIPM
 
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conaly
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:04 pm

I've read today, that Luftfahrtgesellschaft Walter plans to get rid of all its A320, which they took after the grounding of Air Berlin. They will probably be handed over to Eurowings/Germanwings. In that case LH could take back some of its own A320 from EW/GW-fleets back to the mainline, without reducing total numbers, if they start retiring older A320.

Some of those more than 25 years old airplanes really do look outdated from the inside (but still in very good shape), so I wouldn't be unhappy with having them removed from the active fleet.

AFAIK the first A321neos are scheduled to arrive in spring 2019. What's interesting about that: LH has ordered A320 and A321 with BOTH engine variants. The first A320/A321neos are all to be delivered with PW-engines, while the later ones will be equipped with CFM-engines.
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FatCat
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:28 pm

conaly wrote:
AFAIK the first A321neos are scheduled to arrive in spring 2019. What's interesting about that: LH has ordered A320 and A321 with BOTH engine variants. The first A320/A321neos are all to be delivered with PW-engines, while the later ones will be equipped with CFM-engines.

That's not a bad move, in my opinion. But correct me if I'm wrong.
First you keep safe (ish) from engine-caused groundings.
Second you expertise on both engine types, thus gaining tech knowledge that can boost LHTechnik business - Neos are becoming a pretty common sight in Europe's skies.
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:10 pm

conaly wrote:
In that case LH could take back some of its own A320 from EW/GW-fleets back to the mainline, without reducing total numbers, if they start retiring older A320.

Some of those more than 25 years old airplanes really do look outdated from the inside (but still in very good shape), so I wouldn't be unhappy with having them removed from the active fleet.


Returning new A320SL (D-AIZQ - AIZV) will be a nice option also for replacing the old ones.
Last flown aircrafts: A320 OE-LBL < A320 OE-LBU < A319 OE-LDE < A320 OE-LBZ < A320 D-AIPL < A319 D-AIBA < E190 HB-JVL < A320 HB-IJR < A321 VP-BKQ < A321 VP-BAV < A320 HB-JLP < BCS3 HB-JCB < A319 D-AILF < A320 D-AIPM
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:39 pm

When does the oldest LH A320 approach LOV of 60,000 cycles (FC) or 120,000 hours (FH)? At 29 years of age, it isn't worth putting much money into these planes.

Considering how much more efficient the NEOs are, it is just time.

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CrimsonNL
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:39 pm

FatCat wrote:
If I remember correctly, LH flies the oldest A320 still in service, built in 1988...


Jordan Aviation's JY-JAC has that honor, number 29 off the line!

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... tion/OjMFX

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sergegva
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:55 pm

FatCat wrote:
If I remember correctly, LH flies the oldest A320 still in service, built in 1988...


Not exactly, but almost. Lufthansa's oldest A320 was build in August 1989.

Par Planespotters, the oldest A320 flying is MSN n°29 flying for Jordan Aviation (30th birthday coming next january), but it's unclear if it is still in commercial service or just operating special flights. Then we have ZS-GAR, ex-America West/US Airways, operating charter flights in Haïti for Sunrise Airways, but last recorded flight seems to be last February.

The oldest currently with scheduled passenger service seems to be ZS-GAW, built in June 1989, operating for Turkish Leisure Airline Corendon. This aircraft (also an ex-America West/US Airways) operates around 4 sectors each day from Antalya Airport. Then we have Air Canada's oldest A320, C-FDQQ, who will leave Montreal for San Francisco (a long sector!) in a few minutes. In service for Air Canada for 29 years! Finally we have another Air Canada's A320, and then the oldest Lufthansa.
 
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:36 pm

I'd love to know the hour/cycle count for the D-AIPA to D-AIPZ A320 fleet. Some of those were delivered before the fall of the Berlin Wall. D-AIPK's cabin still is in tip-top condition.
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DUSZRH
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:46 pm

conaly wrote:
I've read today, that Luftfahrtgesellschaft Walter plans to get rid of all its A320, which they took after the grounding of Air Berlin. They will probably be handed over to Eurowings/Germanwings. In that case LH could take back some of its own A320 from EW/GW-fleets back to the mainline, without reducing total numbers, if they start retiring older A320.


Won't change anything as they are already flying for EW, moving them to another EW AOC does not free up aircraft ;)
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:07 pm

Why replace them when they're just as good as a CEO from the last 10-15 years? You aren't talking about the 767 which was introduced a decade before.
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:04 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
Why replace them when they're just as good as a CEO from the last 10-15 years? You aren't talking about the 767 which was introduced a decade before.

:no:

These A320 cannot have Sharklets added.
Older version of engine that burns more fuel and requires more care and feeding.
Approaching LOV (post above). Airbus hasn't started work to be increase the life. Previously, airlines parked aircraft until the LOV was updated (from 48k cycles to 60k and 60k hours to 120k). If there is any increase, it will be small.

Older aircraft just require more maintenance. At some point addressing cracks just costs too much. Airbus has improved coatings and metal composition to extend life.

Older aircraft serve fewer flight hours per day. At 10+ hours, a NEO saves enough in fuel and maintenance to pay for itself. It is just time.

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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:23 pm

Lightsaber, are you saying today's A320 NEO might last longer? Like 35 years? Incredible if true.
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:48 pm

zkojq wrote:
I'd love to know the hour/cycle count for the D-AIPA to D-AIPZ A320 fleet. Some of those were delivered before the fall of the Berlin Wall. D-AIPK's cabin still is in tip-top condition.

Well, there’s no huge difference between D-AIPY/Z and D-AIQA-H - both are built in 1991. Maybe this year only A320s, which were built in 1989, will be phased out, that means D-AIPA - AIPL. Next year - 1990(D-AIPM - AIPT, unless they return D-AIPU/W from GW). And it will be more logically to phase out D-AIPY/Z together with other A320s built in 1991.
Last flown aircrafts: A320 OE-LBL < A320 OE-LBU < A319 OE-LDE < A320 OE-LBZ < A320 D-AIPL < A319 D-AIBA < E190 HB-JVL < A320 HB-IJR < A321 VP-BKQ < A321 VP-BAV < A320 HB-JLP < BCS3 HB-JCB < A319 D-AILF < A320 D-AIPM
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:55 pm

I see those frames being retired as heading for the breakers. Lufthansa has gotten very good use out of them (almost 30 years and some will be over 30 years when retired), but they are likely done with no resale value. I don't see any heading for OS or EW at all.
 
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:40 pm

zkojq wrote:
I'd love to know the hour/cycle count for the D-AIPA to D-AIPZ A320 fleet. Some of those were delivered before the fall of the Berlin Wall. D-AIPK's cabin still is in tip-top condition.

cycles are between 51.000-55.000 for a.m. registrations. some -Q'series aircraft have even more cycles than -P'series ones.
therefore, it is equally relevant to consider the flight hours (with all above 65.000 hrs clocked)
 
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:03 pm

sergegva wrote:
FatCat wrote:
If I remember correctly, LH flies the oldest A320 still in service, built in 1988...


Not exactly, but almost. Lufthansa's oldest A320 was build in August 1989.

Par Planespotters, the oldest A320 flying is MSN n°29 flying for Jordan Aviation (30th birthday coming next january), but it's unclear if it is still in commercial service or just operating special flights. Then we have ZS-GAR, ex-America West/US Airways, operating charter flights in Haïti for Sunrise Airways, but last recorded flight seems to be last February.

The oldest currently with scheduled passenger service seems to be ZS-GAW, built in June 1989, operating for Turkish Leisure Airline Corendon. This aircraft (also an ex-America West/US Airways) operates around 4 sectors each day from Antalya Airport. Then we have Air Canada's oldest A320, C-FDQQ, who will leave Montreal for San Francisco (a long sector!) in a few minutes. In service for Air Canada for 29 years! Finally we have another Air Canada's A320, and then the oldest Lufthansa.


ZS-GAW is actually an ex-Braniff II bird, making it even more impressive. That plane has to be close to 100,000 hours now. That operator, Global Aviation of South Africa, seems to have a business of flying planes that would otherwise be scrapped. Their newest A320 is line #81 (of a fleet that is 7-strong), and the other planes in their fleet are two DC-9s, with two A345s being prepared for them.
 
Luftymatt
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:21 pm

A321Lufthansa wrote:
But they also return some less old A320s from Germanwings, the “newest”, D-AIQS, will come soon.

What do you mean? Come where? DAIQS isn't new, there are much newer A320's in the Germanwings/ Eurowings fleet.
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:41 pm

Luftymatt wrote:
A321Lufthansa wrote:
But they also return some less old A320s from Germanwings, the “newest”, D-AIQS, will come soon.

What do you mean? Come where? DAIQS isn't new, there are much newer A320's in the Germanwings/ Eurowings fleet.

“Newest” is figuratively. I mean from the old Germanwings’ A320s.
Last flown aircrafts: A320 OE-LBL < A320 OE-LBU < A319 OE-LDE < A320 OE-LBZ < A320 D-AIPL < A319 D-AIBA < E190 HB-JVL < A320 HB-IJR < A321 VP-BKQ < A321 VP-BAV < A320 HB-JLP < BCS3 HB-JCB < A319 D-AILF < A320 D-AIPM
 
NDiesel
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:04 pm

I was on LH A320 D-AIPL recently and wasn't able to tell the airframe was over 28 years old. The cabin was in immaculate condition - almost like brand new. Not bad for a plane that first flew when I was three years old (1989).
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juliuswong
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:32 pm

Lufthansa is well known for keeping their fleet in immaculate condition and fly their aircraft to the ground before retiring them. I really admire their management and leadership in upholding such practise. This helps them in reselling them. It is not a wonder some of their B737-300/400/500 are still flying around today.
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lightsaber
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:38 am

Flighty wrote:
Lightsaber, are you saying today's A320 NEO might last longer? Like 35 years? Incredible if true.

Today's NEO should last more cycles and hours. More benefit from what I've seen on hours. Because of the improved predictive maintenance these planes will have less down time.

The best Analogy is Allegiant. They have discovered that buying young enough used CEOs has a much better predictive maintenance with Airbus planes less than 15 years old. It seems they are looking for a certain avionics package to cut costs.

IIRC it was 2002 when Curtis Wright packaged up a PowerPC 7410 package that they promised to sell for 20+ years (because enough chip makers, notably Motorola signed up). I'm not sure if Airbus adopted that or a competitor. But it was a huge advance going to PowerPC from the 68040 or i486. This enabled new capabilities.

So Allegiant is preferentially buying the newish (12 to 15 years old) CEOs for the enhanced maintenance planning.

It wasn't until the 787 the next step forward. I don't know everything the NEO added, but actuator sensors are standard now and help maintenance. Better seals, lubricants, and the previously mentioned coatings.

So 35 years you ask. Maybe. I see more cycles and hours earlier. Airbus will eventually increase the LOV. I suspect starting with a line number with the structure for the Sharklets and newer avionics. But to what? 90k cycles/180k hours was too much. :(

But another 12k cycles and say 30k hours is plausible. When?

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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Lufthansa started phase-out of its oldest A320s?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:14 am

Sorry for the off-topic but does anyone know when LH will continue repainting it’s narrowbodies?
Last flown aircrafts: A320 OE-LBL < A320 OE-LBU < A319 OE-LDE < A320 OE-LBZ < A320 D-AIPL < A319 D-AIBA < E190 HB-JVL < A320 HB-IJR < A321 VP-BKQ < A321 VP-BAV < A320 HB-JLP < BCS3 HB-JCB < A319 D-AILF < A320 D-AIPM

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