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Ferryflight
Posts: 68
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:59 am

planemanofnz wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
Dublin ... You are kidding me right?

No - the numbers speak for themselves - it is a very popular tourist destination, in fact, much more popular than OSL. It has world-renowned arts (literature and music), culture and history. For Koreans specifically, it also offers pilgrimages - DUB is the gateway to Knock - as well as the alcohol industry (we all know how much Koreans love Soju, but Guiness is popular too). In contrast, what does OSL really offer? To me, OSL is more of a gateway to natural or scenic attractions throughout Norway and Scandinavia.

See: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/06/12/ ... -tourists/.

That being said, tourism is not the only thing that KE could tap on a DUB flight - DUB has other groups of traffic which make it less seasonal and higher-yielding than OSL. On the former, think connections between Ireland and Australasia through ICN (there are 100,000 Irish born people in Australasia). On the latter, think all the aircraft leasing, financial services, pharmaceuticals and technology industry traffic, each of which DUB and SEL have complementary offerings in. AFAIK, OSL's industry is ... well ... energy?

Cheers,

C.

You have obviously not been to Oslo:-)
You would be very surprised!

I have spent a lot of time in both Dublin and Oslo.
They are very different, but I like Oslo more as a year-round destination.
The city is cleaner, more well organized, set arround fantastic scenery and have a more cultural diverse scene of everything from museums to cafeterias and art.

I think this video is a very short and good introduction to Oslo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?vl=no&v=reaB-rstpvc
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:13 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I think the talk about secondary cities is slightly off. I would not park Basel, Oslo or Dublin under secondary cities. All of this cities have a rich history, tourist attractions and an active business community.
Zagreb has history, tourist attractions and is the gateway to one of Europe's most beautiful and historic coastlines. The business part is growing.

If the talk is about secondary airports, it would sound slightly different. But is not all the talk about point to point and bypassing the big hubs?

It is a pretty accurate description, both from an aviation and economics perspective. The top tier cities in Europe are, IMO, restricted to the likes of LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, and maybe a few limited others (like MAD, BCN, FCO and MXP).


It is exactly a description being quite off. You can call your list of LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA primary hubs regarding airports. And you can even call London and Paris primary cities in their region, but calling for example Frankfurt the primary city in Germany, is right of the mark. Germany has no primary city or several.


From a long-haul standpoint, DUB, OSL, BSL/MLH, or ZAG are definitely secondary, if not 3rd tier destinations.

DUB is solidly in Tier 2, but its Asia long-haul flights is definitely lacking (Basically ME3, then you have CX to HKG, and HU to PEK via EDI). Shanghai? Tokyo? Seoul? Nope. No Indian flights either, but it's not exactly the same market.

OSL is still in Tier 2, although lower Tier 2. BSL/MLH and ZAG are Tier 3 at best. They're anything but "primary" destination.

Ferryflight wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
Dublin ... You are kidding me right?

No - the numbers speak for themselves - it is a very popular tourist destination, in fact, much more popular than OSL. It has world-renowned arts (literature and music), culture and history. For Koreans specifically, it also offers pilgrimages - DUB is the gateway to Knock - as well as the alcohol industry (we all know how much Koreans love Soju, but Guiness is popular too). In contrast, what does OSL really offer? To me, OSL is more of a gateway to natural or scenic attractions throughout Norway and Scandinavia.

See: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/06/12/ ... -tourists/.

That being said, tourism is not the only thing that KE could tap on a DUB flight - DUB has other groups of traffic which make it less seasonal and higher-yielding than OSL. On the former, think connections between Ireland and Australasia through ICN (there are 100,000 Irish born people in Australasia). On the latter, think all the aircraft leasing, financial services, pharmaceuticals and technology industry traffic, each of which DUB and SEL have complementary offerings in. AFAIK, OSL's industry is ... well ... energy?

Cheers,

C.

You have obviously not been to Oslo:-)
You would be very surprised!

I have spent a lot of time in both Dublin and Oslo.
They are very different, but I like Oslo more as a year-round destination.
The city is cleaner, more well organized, set arround fantastic scenery and have a more cultural diverse scene of everything from museums to cafeterias and art.

I think this video is a very short and good introduction to Oslo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?vl=no&v=reaB-rstpvc


Sigh....again, Koreans doesn't fly to OSL just to visit Oslo. Norway is a large country with many natural wonders.

Not putting Ireland down, either (Ireland has its own beauty), but you can't just compare the city of Dublin and the city of Oslo for the flights. And you can't exactly compare Ireland to Norway, either, since both have their own charm.
 
MapleLeaf789
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:40 pm

Thanks for sharing this thread. It's interesting to see KE's strategy to testing the appeal of secondary cities by "chartering" but with a mainline fleet.

Would they ever go the route of starting a cheaper version of their brand such as Rouge? Sounds like they don't need to.
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OSL777FLYER
Posts: 164
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:13 pm

Great that KE will start flights to OSL. Although they will probably be seasonal. No real feeder traffic with One World in Oslo.

As discussed several times on this thread. Asians tend to visit not just Oslo. Although Oslo is a fine city for tourists. They come for all the nature. Be it Fjords, mountains, cruises along Norway's coast etc.....


In this regard OSL is a great starting point for these journeys. Either fly to Bergen or better yet for the tourists, go by train over the mountains. Several cruise ships visit Oslo harbor in the summer. Perhaps some fly to OSL, cruise to somewhere else in Europe then fly back from there or vice versa.

It will be interesting to follow. OSL airport has stated that they are actively seeking more long-haul flights.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:24 pm

Ferryflight wrote:
They are very different, but I like Oslo more as a year-round destination.

Thanks for that video - OSL looks lovely, and I'm sure that it is. Leaving tourism aside for a minute, a more important topic on this is OSL's viability as a non-charter destination for KE to exploit. IMO, it doesn't have the freight and passenger mix to warrant further expansion by KE there. Norway doesn't have a large diaspora like Ireland does, nor does it have a diversified economic base like Ireland does (it's still big on energy, but lacks Ireland's financial services and technology industries). For this reason, I see DUB as better for KE longer-term.

OSL777FLYER wrote:
As discussed several times on this thread. Asians tend to visit not just Oslo. Although Oslo is a fine city for tourists. They come for all the nature. Be it Fjords, mountains, cruises along Norway's coast etc...

I agree, and those are all lovely natural attractions to see. However, I do note that Norway has at times struggled with the Asian in-bound tourism market - for example, as recently as 2013, it was reported that almost half of all Chinese tourists to Norway were dissatisfied with their visit. Separately, Norwegian officials themselves have noted "that infrastructure was already at breaking point, with acute problems with waste disposal, public toilets and parking, and severe erosion on paths leading to popular coastal locations." This is not good at all.

See:
- http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/06/12/ ... -tourists/.
- https://www.thelocal.no/20161228/norway ... in-tourism.

mjoelnir wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I think the talk about secondary cities is slightly off. I would not park Basel, Oslo or Dublin under secondary cities. All of this cities have a rich history, tourist attractions and an active business community.
Zagreb has history, tourist attractions and is the gateway to one of Europe's most beautiful and historic coastlines. The business part is growing.

If the talk is about secondary airports, it would sound slightly different. But is not all the talk about point to point and bypassing the big hubs?

It is a pretty accurate description, both from an aviation and economics perspective. The top tier cities in Europe are, IMO, restricted to the likes of LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, and maybe a few limited others (like MAD, BCN, FCO and MXP).


It is exactly a description being quite off. You can call your list of LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA primary hubs regarding airports. And you can even call London and Paris primary cities in their region, but calling for example Frankfurt the primary city in Germany, is right of the mark. Germany has no primary city or several.

It's so clear though - from an aviation and economics perspective (the most relevant to talking about the development of flights), BSL, DUB, OSL, ZAG and most other cities are secondary cities or below. Fact - OSL is not a top-tier city in Europe - it is not in the same league as LHR, CDG or FRA (and by the way, FRA, since you raised it, is 100% top-tier, being the financial capital of both Germany and Continental Europe - home to the European Central Bank and Continental Europe's largest stock exchange). Please reconsider your position on this.

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:28 pm

MapleLeaf789 wrote:
Would they ever go the route of starting a cheaper version of their brand such as Rouge? Sounds like they don't need to.

They do have a LCC called Jin Air that has done some long-haul flights in the past, like ICN - CNS - at this stage, Jin Air has yet to venture to Europe.

Image

See: https://worldairlinenews.com/2014/12/04 ... 77-200-er/.

Cheers,

C.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:31 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
It is a pretty accurate description, both from an aviation and economics perspective. The top tier cities in Europe are, IMO, restricted to the likes of LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, and maybe a few limited others (like MAD, BCN, FCO and MXP).


It is exactly a description being quite off. You can call your list of LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA primary hubs regarding airports. And you can even call London and Paris primary cities in their region, but calling for example Frankfurt the primary city in Germany, is right of the mark. Germany has no primary city or several.


From a long-haul standpoint, DUB, OSL, BSL/MLH, or ZAG are definitely secondary, if not 3rd tier destinations.

DUB is solidly in Tier 2, but its Asia long-haul flights is definitely lacking (Basically ME3, then you have CX to HKG, and HU to PEK via EDI). Shanghai? Tokyo? Seoul? Nope. No Indian flights either, but it's not exactly the same market.

OSL is still in Tier 2, although lower Tier 2. BSL/MLH and ZAG are Tier 3 at best. They're anything but "primary" destination.


The point is, do you talk about primary cities, primary destinations, or primary airports, huge difference, but posters here seem to have fun to mix it up.

Let us take FRA. Primary city of Germany, no way. Primary destination in Germany, no way. Primary airport and hub in Germany, exactly that.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:37 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
There is no need to underline the direct word in your reply.


That was for clarity only. No need for the snarky reply.

SCQ83 wrote:
And in any case, you are wrong. ICN-ZAG will operate direct year-round, only non-stop in summer season.


Direct as in without stops. You can nitpick about semantics as much as you like; the general meaning is clear.
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
planemanofnz
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:42 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The point is, do you talk about primary cities, primary destinations, or primary airports, huge difference, but posters here seem to have fun to mix it up.

OSL is not primary in any of those categories. But, in any event, as the author of this thread, I've already made it clear to you that I'm using an aviation and economic definition. This is the most relevant definition for discussing the development of flights.

Let's move on.

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:51 pm

Ferryflight wrote:
Dublin might be popular among tourists, but Oslo is in my opinion far more diverse ...

zakuivcustom wrote:
Not putting Ireland down, either (Ireland has its own beauty), but you can't just compare the city of Dublin and the city of Oslo for the flights.

c152sy wrote:
I reckon KE could pull off a scheduled ICN-MAN-DUB-ICN with one of their Airbus A330-200s.

Just one more thing on DUB - I don't have figures ex-Korea, but ex-China (which is arguably at least of some relevance as a barometer for the region), demand to DUB is well ahead of demand to OSL (and elsewhere in Europe, like EDI). For KE (who actually has a huge network in China, as well as in Japan), I'd have thought that this might serve as an incentive to explore an ICN - DUB service too.

Image

See: http://www.anna.aero/2018/03/07/chinese ... 2010-2017/.

Cheers,

C.
 
OSL777FLYER
Posts: 164
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:49 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The point is, do you talk about primary cities, primary destinations, or primary airports, huge difference, but posters here seem to have fun to mix it up.

OSL is not primary in any of those categories. But, in any event, as the author of this thread, I've already made it clear to you that I'm using an aviation and economic definition. This is the most relevant definition for discussing the development of flights.

Let's move on.

Cheers,

C.


Yes, from an Economic and aviation point of view. No more than a seasonal service would work to OSL. Korean Air Cargo though are happy with their flights out of OSL transporting all the salmon.

Stick to cargo year round and maybe a few flights in the summer time.
 
SCQ83
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:53 pm

TripleDelta wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
There is no need to underline the direct word in your reply.


That was for clarity only. No need for the snarky reply.

SCQ83 wrote:
And in any case, you are wrong. ICN-ZAG will operate direct year-round, only non-stop in summer season.


Direct as in without stops. You can nitpick about semantics as much as you like; the general meaning is clear.


I am not nitpick. Direct in aviation does not mean non-stop.

That is why sometimes carriers advertise 1-stop services as "direct services". It is an industry standard.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:15 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
TripleDelta wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
There is no need to underline the direct word in your reply.


That was for clarity only. No need for the snarky reply.

SCQ83 wrote:
And in any case, you are wrong. ICN-ZAG will operate direct year-round, only non-stop in summer season.


Direct as in without stops. You can nitpick about semantics as much as you like; the general meaning is clear.


I am not nitpick. Direct in aviation does not mean non-stop.

That is why sometimes carriers advertise 1-stop services as "direct services". It is an industry standard.


Adding on a little bit.

First, there are MANY articles on the internet on the topic, here's one for example (There are MANY out there if you Google them).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/r ... /83274864/

Direct usually mean single flight number. No, doesn't even have to be the same plane. Qantas has the most well known example of these - QF11/12 is a "direct" flight between SYD and JFK (via LAX). However, the SYD-LAX sector is on a A388, while the LAX-JFK is on a B744 that come from another Qantas flight, QF15/16 between BNE and LAX. There's no "direct" flight, however, between BNE and JFK, though, even though that's the route actual plane would fly (i.e. BNE-LAX-JFK-LAX-BNE).

Yes, some "direct" services in US are even more ridiculous. For example, DL120/121 is a "direct" service between HND and LGA (via MSP). You're not going to see the 777 between HND-MSP flying the MSP-LGA sector anytime soon, though (It's usually a A319), nor DL advertised themselves having a flight to LGA from HND.

WN is an even larger offender - they have a ton of "direct" services that have multiple stops, just b/c they're highly limited in terms of flight number.

Basically, a non-stop flight is a direct flight, but a direct flight is not necessarily a non-stop flight. That's why most people on a.net distinguish between the two.
 
Someone83
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:27 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
Great that KE will start flights to OSL. Although they will probably be seasonal. No real feeder traffic with One World in Oslo.


It is not a new flight, as they have been flying summer charters to OSL for 3 or 4 times now. What’s new is they are increasing the number of flights

Korean is not member of One World, but you don’t need an alliance partner to get some feed
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:47 pm

Someone83 wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
Great that KE will start flights to OSL. Although they will probably be seasonal. No real feeder traffic with One World in Oslo.


It is not a new flight, as they have been flying summer charters to OSL for 3 or 4 times now. What’s new is they are increasing the number of flights

Korean is not member of One World, but you don’t need an alliance partner to get some feed


Apparently it started in 2013:

https://www.rb.no/nyheter/oslo-lufthavn ... -43-264177 (Sorry, Norwegian only)

Similar to the MRS charters, each year they're carrying more and more pax, and operating more and more charter flights.

They're mainly carrying tour groups anyway (Hanjin Travel Service under KE, and a few other tour operators most likely), which will easily filled up those flights.
 
Ferryflight
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:49 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
They are very different, but I like Oslo more as a year-round destination.
Leaving tourism aside for a minute, a more important topic on this is OSL's viability as a non-charter destination for KE to exploit. IMO, it doesn't have the freight and passenger mix



Please elaborate because this is starting to be a bit ridiculous.
No one is saying that the market of airport A is better than market B.
Hence to the comment on your posts is clearly based on assumptions and not facts or knowledge of the market you are talking down.


OSL is served both by Atlas Air, Korean Cargo and Asiana with freighters to ICN. How is Oslo then lacking a freight market to ICN?
I’m very curious to know!

According to OSL/Avinor website, Norway is the largest air cargo market in Northern Europe.


For Asian visitors, Norway will according to Innovation Norway see close to a million Asian bed nights in 2018. Twice the amount of for instance Denmark with the SAS hub, but with hardly any Asian routes due to political issues with China, lack of traffic-rights over Siberia and no major airline utilizing the airport like a IC hub.
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm

Someone83 wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
Great that KE will start flights to OSL. Although they will probably be seasonal. No real feeder traffic with One World in Oslo.


It is not a new flight, as they have been flying summer charters to OSL for 3 or 4 times now. What’s new is they are increasing the number of flights

Korean is not member of One World, but you don’t need an alliance partner to get some feed


My mistake, it is of course SkyTeam. But feeder traffic can be crucial. That being said, Widerøe Airlines have started to codeshare with other carriers than their previous part-owners SAS. They now codeshare with Finnair and KLM for instance to offer flights to some of the really smaller airports in Norway.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:23 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
Great that KE will start flights to OSL. Although they will probably be seasonal. No real feeder traffic with One World in Oslo.


It is not a new flight, as they have been flying summer charters to OSL for 3 or 4 times now. What’s new is they are increasing the number of flights

Korean is not member of One World, but you don’t need an alliance partner to get some feed


My mistake, it is of course SkyTeam. But feeder traffic can be crucial. That being said, Widerøe Airlines have started to codeshare with other carriers than their previous part-owners SAS. They now codeshare with Finnair and KLM for instance to offer flights to some of the really smaller airports in Norway.


The thing is, most of the people on the charter are likely to be on either some tour groups or some tour packages. Which means everything from accommodation to local transport and possibly meals are already all arranged.

In another word, there's absolutely no need for any feed. It's not a seasonal scheduled flight, rather, it's seasonal CHARTER flight. Huge difference in terms of demographics.
 
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spinotter
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:26 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
TripleDelta wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
[Korean Air is making ICN-ZAG three weekly and scheduled this winter season. Nothing to do with cruises but about how popular a year-round destination Croatia is for Koreans.


ICN-ZAG will operate direct only during the summer season. During the winter it'll have an intermediate stop in ZRH (ICN-ZRH-ZAG), but will still be on a scheduled basis.


There is no need to underline the direct word in your reply.

And in any case, you are wrong. ICN-ZAG will operate direct year-round, only non-stop in summer season.

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/the-im ... ct-flights

Having three weekly flights to Zagreb from South Korea in winter means there is a lot of tourism demand and not related to beach/cruises, since most Asians in Croatia/the Balkans are looking for a cultural experience.


Isn't it true that in some languages, and perhaps even in some English-speaking countries. direct means non-stop?
 
fly2yyz
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:53 am

I would presume that KEs history and experience with OSL as a cargo destination that it uses these charter flights to uplift belly cargo...kinda like icing on the cake rather than flying to other Scandinavian destinations.

Also looking at some of the tours that are offered by Hanjin/Kaltour they start and end in Oslo going to Göteborg, Kopenhamn, Jonkopimg, Karlstad, Oslo, Lillehammer, Fjordland, and Bergen.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:57 am

Ferryflight wrote:
No one is saying that the market of airport A is better than market B.

I am. I'm saying that DUB is better than OSL for KE as a scheduled and year-round destination. OSL suits a charter operation.

Ferryflight wrote:
OSL is served both by Atlas Air, Korean Cargo and Asiana with freighters to ICN. How is Oslo then lacking a freight market to ICN?

OSL is not lacking freight, but it's the mix of freight that I'm getting at, as to the viability of a scheduled flight. OSL has a lot of natural products, like seafood (kind of like ANC and Alaska). It doesn't have smaller, higher-yielding freight like pharmaceutical goods and semi-conductor chips, which DUB has (DUB and SEL are tech-hubs, for example). Those smaller cargo pieces take up less space, and better complement a mixed passenger-cargo operation, as opposed to an all-cargo operation.

Ferryflight wrote:
For Asian visitors, Norway will according to Innovation Norway see close to a million Asian bed nights in 2018 ...

That's very impressive. Though, Asian tourist satisfaction (or lack thereof) in Norway is concerning for sustainability of growth.

fly2yyz wrote:
I would presume that KEs history and experience with OSL as a cargo destination that it uses these charter flights to uplift belly cargo...kinda like icing on the cake rather than flying to other Scandinavian destinations.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: - we have a winner.

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:25 am

To sum up the discussion to date, it seems as though KE's route map in Europe is as follows (red as scheduled and violet as chartered):

Image

Image

This is really very impressive on KE's part. I count 19 destinations in Europe (including charter). Do any Asian airlines beat this figure?

Based on this, two questions for me are:

1. Which of the charter destinations stands the best chance of following in ZAG's steps and moving from chartered to scheduled soon?

2. Which cities in Europe is KE most likely to add in the future, both on a chartered and scheduled basis? MAN and DUB seem possible.

Cheers,

C.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:01 am

planemanofnz wrote:
This is really very impressive on KE's part. I count 19 destinations in Europe (including charter). Do any Asian airlines beat this figure?


EK or QR or EY? :duck: :duck: (There's also Pegasus, since their HQ and main hub are both located in the Asia side of Istanbul).

For APAC, CA also fly to 19 cities in Europe, year round also. This include the PEK-MSQ-BUD-PEK triangular route. (It's shown in Red)

Come to think of it, if you include HU (just out of PEK, in Purple, to 8 European destinations, with SVO overlapping with CA) and CZ also (Green, and I included TBS even though some put the country of Georgia in Asia, while some put it in Europe), there are 28 (or 27 if you exclude TBS) European cities that has non-stop to/from Europe just on Chinese carrier:

Image

If the picture is not clear:
UK - LHR (CA), MAN (HU)
Ireland - DUB (HU)
France - CDG (CA)
Benelux - BRU (HU), AMS (CZ)
Germany - FRA (CA), MUC (CA), DUS (CA), TXL (HU)
Switzerland - GVA (CA), ZRH (CA)
Spain - MAD (CA), BCN (CA)
Italy - FCO (CA), MXP (CA)
East Central Europe - VIE (CA), BUD (CA), PRG (HU), WAW (CA)
Scandinavia - CPH (CA), ARN (CA)
Russia/ex-USSR - SVO (CA, HU), LED (HU), MSQ (CA)
Balkan - ATH (CA), BEG (HU)
Caucasus - TBS (CZ)

Airports not included are IST (TK) and KBP (PS/Ukraine Int'l Airlines). There's also ZI (Aigle Azur) to ORY. Lastly, AY to HEL.

EDIT: Forgot that there's JD to LIS also.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:21 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
EK or QR or EY? (There's also Pegasus, since their HQ and main hub are both located in the Asia side of Istanbul).

I meant East Asia / the Orient.

zakuivcustom wrote:
CA also fly to 19 cities in Europe, year round also.

So CA and KE are 1st equal.

CA are launching LGW too.

Cheers,

C.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:43 am

planemanofnz wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
EK or QR or EY? (There's also Pegasus, since their HQ and main hub are both located in the Asia side of Istanbul).

I meant East Asia / the Orient.

zakuivcustom wrote:
CA also fly to 19 cities in Europe, year round also.

So CA and KE are 1st equal.

CA are launching LGW too.

Cheers,

C.


Seems like you forgot AMS for KE on the map? Although if I count correctly, you only have 13 airports in the first map.

Otherwise, I would say CA is #1. All 19 cities are year-round. Yes, one involved a triangular route (MSQ and BUD), but it is still a year-round flight.

As for a few other - SQ fly to 15, and if you include TR to ATH and TXL, that makes it 17 cities. CX fly to 12 cities (13 airports, LGW+LHR being consider a single city) if I count correctly.

As for KE - the only expansion I can see is DUB. They can try LIS also. Portugal tourism is not quite there yet, though.
 
planemanofnz
Topic Author
Posts: 4383
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:05 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
As for KE - the only expansion I can see is DUB.

I agree. I think they should consider MAN too, for year-round, regular scheduled services. Both on 330 / 787's. Aside from those:

- Perhaps they should try another Scandinavian city to distinguish themselves from OZ, who are also doing OSL charter services.
- GVA stands out to me as being a high-yielding city with a disproportionately low level of Asian flights - perhaps to replace BSL?
- I think they could do more in Germany - I know they dropped MUC, but Germany is Europe's biggest economy. Is FRA enough?

Cheers,

C.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:34 am

spinotter wrote:
Isn't it true that in some languages, and perhaps even in some English-speaking countries. direct means non-stop?


Not among the educated. In fact, "direct" is presumed not to be a nonstop if a flight is said to be "direct" instead of being called "nonstop". In airline booking engines, regardless of airline, you don't see "direct" as a filter, you see "nonstop", "1-stop", "2-stop".

I would say "direct" has a connotation of "bait and swtich", in that the uneducated would tend to buy "direct" when they think they are buying "nonstop".
 
Ferryflight
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:28 pm

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:46 am

planemanofnz wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
No one is saying that the market of airport A is better than market B.

I am. I'm saying that DUB is better than OSL for KE as a scheduled and year-round destination. OSL suits a charter operation.

Ferryflight wrote:
OSL is served both by Atlas Air, Korean Cargo and Asiana with freighters to ICN. How is Oslo then lacking a freight market to ICN?

OSL is not lacking freight, but it's the mix of freight that I'm getting at, as to the viability of a scheduled flight. OSL has a lot of natural products, like seafood (kind of like ANC and Alaska). It doesn't have smaller, higher-yielding freight like pharmaceutical goods and semi-conductor chips, which DUB has (DUB and SEL are tech-hubs, for example). Those smaller cargo pieces take up less space, and better complement a mixed passenger-cargo operation, as opposed to an all-cargo operation.

Ferryflight wrote:
For Asian visitors, Norway will according to Innovation Norway see close to a million Asian bed nights in 2018 ...

That's very impressive. Though, Asian tourist satisfaction (or lack thereof) in Norway is concerning for sustainability of growth.

fly2yyz wrote:
I would presume that KEs history and experience with OSL as a cargo destination that it uses these charter flights to uplift belly cargo...kinda like icing on the cake rather than flying to other Scandinavian destinations.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: - we have a winner.

Cheers,

C.


This is very entertaining indeed!

Impressive to see how much you know about the industries of Norway and trade to South Korea...

Its especially as belly freight the Norwegian air cargo market is profitable as the seafood is very dense and comes in big volumes.
According to Qatar Airways in newstodate.aero, one of the most attractive belly markets in Europe due to the yield to weight ratio.

South Korea is Norways 4th largest trade partner after EU, US and China.
According to statistics Norway export/import report of 2017, main commodities of export by air from Norway to South Korea was Seafood, Pharma (you heard me right), Tech (subsea and navigation systems), defense systems and oil/gas related.

Some 80.000 Korean visitors are expected to visit Norway in 2018.
According to Innovation Norway, around 5-7.000 arriving pr.month in the winter, rest in the summer.

And guess, the same reports says that the largest growth is in the winter months with arctic tourism from Korea.

And before you even try, the report says that Switzerland, London and Scandinavia mainly receives the higher end of South Korean travelers in Europe.

With Asiana and Korean operating Charters to OSL, with at least one of them expected to go full year schedule next year. 3 airlines operating full freighters on OSL-ICN. ...... and DUB with well, none of the above, its difficult to take your arguments seriously!
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 840
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:28 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Isn't it true that in some languages, and perhaps even in some English-speaking countries. direct means non-stop?


Not among the educated. In fact, "direct" is presumed not to be a nonstop if a flight is said to be "direct" instead of being called "nonstop". In airline booking engines, regardless of airline, you don't see "direct" as a filter, you see "nonstop", "1-stop", "2-stop".

I would say "direct" has a connotation of "bait and swtich", in that the uneducated would tend to buy "direct" when they think they are buying "nonstop".


And yet, according to the dictionary website https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais ... irect.html (from French to English):

vol direct nom, masculin
direct flight n (usage fréquent)
plus rare : non-stop flight n

So that meaning exists, although I agree that it is "de plus en plus rare" these days.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3586
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:22 pm

spinotter wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Isn't it true that in some languages, and perhaps even in some English-speaking countries. direct means non-stop?


Not among the educated. In fact, "direct" is presumed not to be a nonstop if a flight is said to be "direct" instead of being called "nonstop". In airline booking engines, regardless of airline, you don't see "direct" as a filter, you see "nonstop", "1-stop", "2-stop".

I would say "direct" has a connotation of "bait and swtich", in that the uneducated would tend to buy "direct" when they think they are buying "nonstop".


And yet, according to the dictionary website https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais ... irect.html (from French to English):

vol direct nom, masculin
direct flight n (usage fréquent)
plus rare : non-stop flight n

So that meaning exists, although I agree that it is "de plus en plus rare" these days.


It's "Plus rare" for a reason :white: .

The terms "direct" and "non-stop" do get interchange often. But as I said, there's nothing wrong with calling a non-stop flight a direct flight (b/c by definition, that's true), but direct flight does not necessarily mean non-stop. In aviation speak, "direct" can be either non-stop OR same flight number (or plane) with 1 (or multiple) stops in the middle. The term "direct" flight is used to distinguish it from "connecting" flight, as fairly often (but not always the case, it depends on the country) a passenger on a "direct" flight does not have to get off the plane.

The "direct flight" term come from early commercial aviation (1950s/60s) where there are often multiple stops en-route. For example, "direct" Tokyo-London flight often means a stop in HKG, BKK, India/GCC, ATH (or Cyprus), before reaching LON. For the whole flight, passenger get to just stay on board.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:58 pm

The etymology goes back further ... to (as in many things related to "air ships") maritime commerce. You sailed "direct" when you didn't have to change ships. Today, as I wrote above, it's more of a trap for the unwary... not even the same ship, just the same flight number.
 
flycro
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:37 pm

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:19 pm

Seem to be lots of morons on here, but fair play to KE launching ZAG as the country receives nearly 500,000 tourists from South Korea per annum
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 840
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:12 am

flycro wrote:
Seem to be lots of morons on here, but fair play to KE launching ZAG as the country receives nearly 500,000 tourists from South Korea per annum


Well, thank you for the kind words, sir or madam. Do you include yourself in the set of morons on airliners.net? Did you wake up in a particularly grouchy mood before posting your comment? Apology welcomed.
 
MapleLeaf789
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:53 pm

Interesting to see Sao Paulo demand here. I believe that KE cancelled their GRU flight.

I think that this table shows how much demand there will be (externally) for Brazil once a full recovery takes place.
Toronto Based

A319/320/321/330/340
B707/727/737/747/767/777/787
BAE146
CRJ200/700
DC8/9/10
DHC8/Q4
E175/195
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9218
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: KE - Secondary Europe

Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:18 pm

HeeseokKoo wrote:
Airfare is also much much cheaper to Europe than to the US especially in the high season. Also, Business class is always cheap ($2.5k roundtrip all year around) to Europe whereas $5-6k to the US.


That may build volumes but it shouldn't draw an increase in service. Why (should airlines) go where the fares are low?

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