Hi all,

This year, KE is launching or re-launching secondary European cities, including BSL, OSL and ZAG, either on a charter or scheduled basis.

ZAG had been operated previously as a charter, and will now become scheduled. OSL was also previously a charter, and will return as so.

What's driving this push by KE into secondary Europe, and do you think it'll be sustainable? What other destinations could KE launch next?

See:
- https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... rs-in-s18/.
- https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... s-in-3q18/.
- https://www.total-croatia-news.com/trav ... -september.



Cheers,

C.

Korean tourists everywhere in Europe.

SCQ83 wrote:

Korean tourists everywhere in Europe.

Aren't there more touristy destinations to serve first other than those three?

There's been a decline in long-haul foreign visitors to the U.S. in no small part thanks to our presiden't rhetoric and policies, so they are taking their money somewhere else.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... st-problem

ICN-OSL has gradually, but slowly, been increasing. They started with 6 charter round trips and have noe reached 10 round trips this season

ro1960 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Korean tourists everywhere in Europe.

Aren't there more touristy destinations to serve first other than those three?

It depends - according to the list below, DUB has the most international visitors of any European city that KE does not serve. However, I'd imagine that ZAG would have more tourism appeal for Koreans than DUB (though arguably DUB offers more than OSL).

See: https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/th ... 67901.html.

I suspect BSL came down to lower landing fees than others - these charters are likely tourists going to be sent on buses around Europe anyway, so the arrival port doesn't matter so much, and BSL is centrally-located. However, KE does fly to ZRH down the road.

Cheers,

C.

ro1960 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Korean tourists everywhere in Europe.

Aren't there more touristy destinations to serve first other than those three?

Those other destinations (Paris, Spain, Italy...) are already served. For instance, 500k Korean tourists in Croatia per year.

http://hotspots.net.hr/en/2017/12/half- ... this-year/

SCQ83 wrote:

ro1960 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Korean tourists everywhere in Europe.

Aren't there more touristy destinations to serve first other than those three?

Those other destinations (Paris, Spain, Italy...) are already served. For instance, 500k Korean tourists in Croatia per year.

http://hotspots.net.hr/en/2017/12/half- ... this-year/

Seasonal charters as per Wikipedia. So they're probably cruise ships feeders.

ro1960 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

ro1960 wrote:

Aren't there more touristy destinations to serve first other than those three?

Those other destinations (Paris, Spain, Italy...) are already served. For instance, 500k Korean tourists in Croatia per year.

http://hotspots.net.hr/en/2017/12/half- ... this-year/

Seasonal charters as per Wikipedia. So they're probably cruise ships feeders.

Korean Air is making ICN-ZAG three weekly and scheduled this winter season. Nothing to do with cruises but about how popular a year-round destination Croatia is for Koreans.

ro1960 wrote:

So they're probably cruise ships feeders.

Does anyone know if OSL is primarily for cruise traffic?

Cheers,

C.

airbazar wrote:

There's been a decline in long-haul foreign visitors to the U.S. in no small part thanks to our presiden't rhetoric and policies, so they are taking their money somewhere else.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... st-problem

Last year, for the first time ever, Korean spent more money in Europe than the US. Some also blame long immigration lines but honestly, it has improved significantly.

But this is just a phase rather than policies. All touristic or 'secondary' destinations in Europe are unique from each other, making Koreans visit Europe multiple times and still feel like new. Whereas people don't feel a need to visit the US more than, say, three times - west coast once, east coast once, and Hawaii. Now more Koreans are visiting exotic places such as Central Asia, South America, Cuba, even Africa, because they feel like they've seen everything else. Many Korean TV shows promote those exotic places rather than expensive and nothing-new New York or Paris. I remember Japanese was in this phase in 90s.

Airfare is also much much cheaper to Europe than to the US especially in the high season. Also, Business class is always cheap ($2.5k roundtrip all year around) to Europe whereas $5-6k to the US.

KE and OZ try secondary Europe markets seasonally for a number of years now. I believe PRG and BCN were started this way a few years ago as an example. It is a good way to test a market for them before turning regular services. My guess is all three (BSL OSL ZAG) are medium emerging markets that are underserved from Asia and so yield may be ok if it's only a summer service. I am sure there are many other airports that they can fly 2-3 times a week to, but it would be hard to say what they are specifically as there are just so many interesting touristic spots in Europe. The geographical location of ICN is pretty good and get feed from inside South Korea, Japan (which has a distinction of providing them with large amount of feed with manageable level of competition - e.g. JL & NH being so conservative in Europe and DXB being so out of the way), and Northern China. It is kind of similar to how ICN is leveraged as a hub for TPAC (there is a long separate thread about DL recently for example).

MAN could be a good draw for KE.

Students and cargo for a start (lots of high value cargo trucked down to LHR from MAN, and replicated around to support a MAN flight could be a start.

Then there is Tourism. The Lake District, the peaks, snowdonia, Liverpool, Manchester and easy connections on to Dublin, Glasgow, Newquay and the Isle of Mann.

mdavies06 wrote:

KE and OZ try secondary Europe markets seasonally for a number of years now. I believe PRG and BCN were started this way a few years ago as an example. It is a good way to test a market for them before turning regular services. My guess is all three (BSL OSL ZAG) are medium emerging markets that are underserved from Asia and so yield may be ok if it's only a summer service. I am sure there are many other airports that they can fly 2-3 times a week to, but it would be hard to say what they are specifically as there are just so many interesting touristic spots in Europe. The geographical location of ICN is pretty good and get feed from inside South Korea, Japan (which has a distinction of providing them with large amount of feed with manageable level of competition - e.g. JL & NH being so conservative in Europe and DXB being so out of the way), and Northern China. It is kind of similar to how ICN is leveraged as a hub for TPAC (there is a long separate thread about DL recently for example).

I believe PRG was started as part of KE's investment into Czech Airlines (Which they've divested already). Nevertheless, when I was in Prague 2 weeks ago, Koreans dominate even mainland Chinese for East Asian (Of course, there are your typical Americans and Europeans).

But yes, Japan (especially the like of KIX/NGO/FUK) does feed a fair amount of traffic to KE/OZ. Its main competitor is AY anyway instead of ME3 (Since ME3 is just WAY too out of the way).

I wonder why they didn't try WAW. LOT is doing rather well now at 5 weekly, a lot of Koreans working in Poland and visiting.

Another aspect: KE as first mover to preempt the 5 non-KE Korean LCCs from expanding service to the EU. If some of the LCCs try, KE will counter with Jin Air (LJ), which already serves 26 foreign destinations, but none yet in the EU.

planemanofnz wrote:

ro1960 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Korean tourists everywhere in Europe.

Aren't there more touristy destinations to serve first other than those three?

It depends - according to the list below, DUB has the most international visitors of any European city that KE does not serve. However, I'd imagine that ZAG would have more tourism appeal for Koreans than DUB (though arguably DUB offers more than OSL).

See: https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/th ... 67901.html.

I suspect BSL came down to lower landing fees than others - these charters are likely tourists going to be sent on buses around Europe anyway, so the arrival port doesn't matter so much, and BSL is centrally-located. However, KE does fly to ZRH down the road.

Cheers,

C.

An Ireland/Scotland combo could work well for KE.... definitely tourist draws to both. Although I suspect a link to Japan would be next on the cards. We have had the JAL charters from Tokyo, so would probably see them before KE. Also can connect from Dublin into regional UK airports like BHX MAN NCL BRS etc.

WPvsMW wrote:

Another aspect: KE as first mover to preempt the 5 non-KE Korean LCCs from expanding service to the EU. If some of the LCCs try, KE will counter with Jin Air (LJ), which already serves 26 foreign destinations, but none yet in the EU.

Not like the other Korean LCCs has any plane that they can fly to EU to begin with anyway. LJ is the only LCC that has a long-haul fleet in those 4 ex-KE 772ER, but they're used mainly for SE Asia (i.e. DAD and BKK, right now also to BKI and JHB) along with high-capacity Japanese routes like KIX and seasonally, OKA or CTS. LJ used to fly to HNL, and seasonally, CNS, but right now they're flying to neither airport.

Also, I'm not aware of any plan for TW (T'way) or ZE (Eastar) or 7C (Jeju Air) to introduce any widebodies. Yes, theoratically OZ can send a few of their older widebodies to RS (Air Seoul) or BX (Air Busan), but OZ seems content with the current operation (i.e. Use BX as its PUS-based flight, and RS for secondary destinations which mainline OZ can't make money out of ICN).

The most likely LCC between Europe and S. Korea is Norwegian, but right now they can't even get Russia overflight right. I don't think those overflight rights (Even if Norwegian somehow get them, most likely after either IAG or LH brought them) come cheap, either.

P.S. Another side note, operating to EU is just not cheap at all. There's a reason why AirAsia X somewhat refused to go back into Europe, while Scoot is only now restarting routes to tourist markets like ATH and TXL.

Skyblue39 wrote:

An Ireland/Scotland combo could work well for KE.... definitely tourist draws to both.

I agree - and both would also top-up KE's Australia / New Zealand routes quite nicely, I'd imagine.

Going through ICN is a quicker routing from DUB to BNE / AKL, than going through DXB or HKG.

Cheers,

C.

Bizarrely, I've also found that OZ is launching ICN - OSL soon too.

Asiana Airlines from 10JUL18 to 28AUG18 is adding scheduled charter service to Norway, with the offering of Seoul Incheon – Oslo route. Airbus A330-300 aircraft will operate this route twice a week. This service is sold as Economy Class only.

OZ5215 ICN1100 – 1430OSL 333 26
OZ5225 OSL1615 – 0915+1ICN 333 26

See: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... s-in-3q18/.

What's up with both KE and OZ going gung-ho on OSL? Weird?

Cheers,

C.

planemanofnz wrote:

Going through ICN is a quicker routing from DUB to BNE / AKL, than going through DXB or HKG.

Thus, NZ should move to SkyTeam from *A. I think NZ would benefit greatly from such a move.

airbazar wrote:

There's been a decline in long-haul foreign visitors to the U.S. in no small part thanks to our presiden't rhetoric and policies, so they are taking their money somewhere else.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... st-problem

Why are you talking about the US - this thread is about secondary Europe, no?

In any event, I suggest you read up on Korean tourism to the US - it's booming.

See: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/r ... 339330002/.

Cheers,

C.

WPvsMW wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

Going through ICN is a quicker routing from DUB to BNE / AKL, than going through DXB or HKG.

Thus, NZ should move to SkyTeam from *A. I think NZ would benefit greatly from such a move.

That's a bit off-topic, but in any event, you realize that ICN is also a Star hub through OZ too, right? There's no need for NZ to join SkyTeam.

Cheers,

C.

OZ is a far cry from KE. Were I Chris Luxon, I would be comparing what ST could do for the bottom line, vs. what *A is doing for it.

Currently, there is no nonstop service AKL/ICN on any carrier... correct? Join ST on the condition of such non-stop service, with ICN as a scissor hub to Europe, Eastern Europe, and China. Routes KE does today much more than OZ.

WPvsMW wrote:

OZ is a far cry from KE. Were I Chris Luxon, I would be comparing what ST could do for the bottom line, vs. what *A is doing for it.

Currently, there is no nonstop service AKL/ICN on any carrier... correct?

Eh, no, KE has flown AKL - ICN for decades, and even uses the 748 jumbo on the route over the NW period.

I'd point out that Star does very well for NZ, with JV's with CA, SQ and UA, and deep code-sharing with LH.

Cheers,

C.

WPvsMW wrote:

Only a mod's scolding and deleting posts gets strays back on topic.

BOT: I don't think OZ would hesitate to move WBs to RS. I think OZ is watching what Hanjin Group does with LJ, and what SIA does with TR, very closely.

For me, LJ is barely using their 772ER on routes that really need the range of 772ER (JHB being the only one I believe, and that route is brand new as in 10 days old), which tells you something about LCC and widebodies in general (They were used for ICN-HNL, but for now the route is suspended, supposedly until mid-July).

P.S. In terms of KE charter, there was the (returning) ICN-MRS charter as well:

https://www.routesonline.com/airports/2 ... 0marseille

Now in its 5th year.

As for OSL - maybe the tourism demand is large, but highly seasonal? July/August is definitely the high season to go to Norway in general.

Keep the thread on topic. There's no need for personal attacks.

✈️ atcsundevil

WPvsMW wrote:

Only a mod's scolding and deleting posts gets strays back on topic.

Hopefully!

planemanofnz wrote:

ro1960 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

However, I'd imagine that ZAG would have more tourism appeal for Koreans than DUB (though arguably DUB offers more than OSL).

You are kidding me right?

Dublin might be popular among tourists, but Oslo is in my openion far more diverse, beautiful and spectacular than Dublin! However Oslo is lacking branding and appeal in the public like Dublin.
A hidden gem I would say!

Lonley planet have listed Oslo as top 10 global destinations in 2018.

3w direct flights to ICN from OSL this summer.

However, I would love to see a ICN served from DUB also!

WPvsMW wrote:

OZ is a far cry from KE. Were I Chris Luxon, I would be comparing what ST could do for the bottom line, vs. what *A is doing for it.

Currently, there is no nonstop service AKL/ICN on any carrier... correct? Join ST on the condition of such non-stop service, with ICN as a scissor hub to Europe, Eastern Europe, and China. Routes KE does today much more than OZ.

So what can Skyteam do for NZ that star can’t?

As Planemanofnz said KE Have flown to AKL for a long time. They flew to CHC for quite a while to and OZ flew to AKL briefly many years ago now.

That is off topic however. I do find some of KE’s routes odd, quite low frequency that don’t seem to grow much outside od th me US maybe.

Ferryflight wrote:

Dublin ... You are kidding me right?

No - the numbers speak for themselves - it is a very popular tourist destination, in fact, much more popular than OSL. It has world-renowned arts (literature and music), culture and history. For Koreans specifically, it also offers pilgrimages - DUB is the gateway to Knock - as well as the alcohol industry (we all know how much Koreans love Soju, but Guiness is popular too). In contrast, what does OSL really offer? To me, OSL is more of a gateway to natural or scenic attractions throughout Norway and Scandinavia.

See: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/06/12/ ... -tourists/.

That being said, tourism is not the only thing that KE could tap on a DUB flight - DUB has other groups of traffic which make it less seasonal and higher-yielding than OSL. On the former, think connections between Ireland and Australasia through ICN (there are 100,000 Irish born people in Australasia). On the latter, think all the aircraft leasing, financial services, pharmaceuticals and technology industry traffic, each of which DUB and SEL have complementary offerings in. AFAIK, OSL's industry is ... well ... energy?

Cheers,

C.

SCQ83 wrote:

[Korean Air is making ICN-ZAG three weekly and scheduled this winter season. Nothing to do with cruises but about how popular a year-round destination Croatia is for Koreans.

ICN-ZAG will operate direct only during the summer season. During the winter it'll have an intermediate stop in ZRH (ICN-ZRH-ZAG), but will still be on a scheduled basis.

ZK-NBT wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

OZ is a far cry from KE. Were I Chris Luxon, I would be comparing what ST could do for the bottom line, vs. what *A is doing for it.

Currently, there is no nonstop service AKL/ICN on any carrier... correct? Join ST on the condition of such non-stop service, with ICN as a scissor hub to Europe, Eastern Europe, and China. Routes KE does today much more than OZ.

So what can Skyteam do for NZ that star can’t?

What is *A doing for NZ now? TG flies AKL/BKK. AC flies AKL/PEK. (plus UA to SFO) That's it from partners... no scissor hub to Europe, and E.Europe. OZ lacks the fleet to scissor to Europe and E. Europe.
https://starmap.fltmaps.com/en/other

ICN would be better than HKG as a scissor hub to Europe, so jumping to OW to work with CX would not be as good at working with KE and ST. NZ could sell the S.PAC to Europe much better than QF and OW.

TripleDelta wrote:

ICN-ZAG will operate only during the summer season. During the winter it'll have an intermediate stop in ZRH.

Will KE have 5th freedom rights on ZRH-ZAG?

WPvsMW wrote:

What is *A doing for NZ now? TG flies AKL/BKK. AC flies AKL/PEK. (plus UA to SFO) That's it from partners... no scissor hub to Europe ...

Have you ever heard of an airline called SQ?



In any event, the AKL discussion is off-topic.

Cheers,

C.

planemanofnz wrote:

Will KE have 5th freedom rights on ZRH-ZAG?

Not to my knowledge... so far. The specifics of the route may still not be fully agreed down to the finer details.

planemanofnz wrote:

ro1960 wrote:

So they're probably cruise ships feeders.

Does anyone know if OSL is primarily for cruise traffic?

Cheers,

C.

No, as almost no cruise ships start or stop their journey in Oslo, although many visit Oslo during their Scandinavian/Nordic journeys. However the Korean tourists here are usually taking part in a round trip, either in Norway or other parts of Scandinavia, and start and end their journey in Oslo.

In addition, the return flights to ICN are filled up with seafood

KE also flies ICN-MRS in Provence, 8 times a year (8 return flights).
They've been flying there since 2014.
A330-200 is operating these charter flights

TripleDelta wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

[Korean Air is making ICN-ZAG three weekly and scheduled this winter season. Nothing to do with cruises but about how popular a year-round destination Croatia is for Koreans.

ICN-ZAG will operate direct only during the summer season. During the winter it'll have an intermediate stop in ZRH (ICN-ZRH-ZAG), but will still be on a scheduled basis.

That makes no sense, ZRH is more west than ZAG. Shouldn't it be ICN-ZAG-ZRH?

thekorean wrote:

That makes no sense, ZRH is more west than ZAG. Shouldn't it be ICN-ZAG-ZRH?

Right now, it looks like the flight will run ICN-ZAG-ZRH-ICN this winter 3x weekly with a 772.

panamair wrote:

Right now, it looks like the flight will run ICN-ZAG-ZRH-ICN this winter 3x weekly with a 772.

The info we were given was ICN-ZRH-ZAG and then back (since there already is a flight to Zurich); the first few flights with the A330, then 787.

And then ICN-ZAG-ICN during the summer when demand picks up again.

The airline also operated its first charter flights to Tbilisi in May. On a side note, if at all possible, I reckon KE could pull off a scheduled ICN-MAN-DUB-ICN with one of their Airbus A330-200s. Both the UK and Ireland are incredibly popular tourist destinations for Koreans with plenty of travellers visiting Manchester, Liverpool and the Lake District aka all areas within relatively easy reach of MAN, likewise the same can be said for Dublin and other regions across Ireland. There are also plenty of Korean students at language schools in and around Dublin and in the North of the UK, as well as significant numbers of Korean students at universities across the North.

TripleDelta wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

[Korean Air is making ICN-ZAG three weekly and scheduled this winter season. Nothing to do with cruises but about how popular a year-round destination Croatia is for Koreans.

ICN-ZAG will operate direct only during the summer season. During the winter it'll have an intermediate stop in ZRH (ICN-ZRH-ZAG), but will still be on a scheduled basis.

There is no need to underline the direct word in your reply.

And in any case, you are wrong. ICN-ZAG will operate direct year-round, only non-stop in summer season.

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/the-im ... ct-flights

Having three weekly flights to Zagreb from South Korea in winter means there is a lot of tourism demand and not related to beach/cruises, since most Asians in Croatia/the Balkans are looking for a cultural experience.

User001 wrote:

MAN could be a good draw for KE.

Students and cargo for a start (lots of high value cargo trucked down to LHR from MAN, and replicated around to support a MAN flight could be a start.

Then there is Tourism. The Lake District, the peaks, snowdonia, Liverpool, Manchester and easy connections on to Dublin, Glasgow, Newquay and the Isle of Mann.

Korean have actually been operating a short season of inbound Scottish tourist flights into GLA for the past three summers, using A330-200 equipment, the last flight was a couple of weeks ago and on behalf of Korean tour operator Kaltour. It's been suggested the frequency of these may increase if demand proves sufficient.

I wouldn't call OSL secondary, considering the other airports in that list. But it sure is fun to see KE expanding, and I hope to see more.

planemanofnz wrote:

I suspect BSL came down to lower landing fees than others - these charters are likely tourists going to be sent on buses around Europe anyway, so the arrival port doesn't matter so much, and BSL is centrally-located. However, KE does fly to ZRH down the road.

Cheers,

C.

There is so much more to Basel than just being a suitable bus-off point. The city itself has a lot to offer, as does Mulhouse and Freiburg. Genf, Zürich and Bern are all close. You have Rhine river cruises, and high speed trains to all of Germany, Paris and Milan. Alsace and Schwartzwald are nice places too, and popular for bicycle holidays.

Someone83 wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

ro1960 wrote:

So they're probably cruise ships feeders.

Does anyone know if OSL is primarily for cruise traffic?

Cheers,

C.

No, as almost no cruise ships start or stop their journey in Oslo, although many visit Oslo during their Scandinavian/Nordic journeys. However the Korean tourists here are usually taking part in a round trip, either in Norway or other parts of Scandinavia, and start and end their journey in Oslo.

In addition, the return flights to ICN are filled up with seafood

That's what I meant about ZAG. It could well be the point on entry into Croatia, then bus to the Adriatic and off to a cruise.

I'm surprised NCE is not part of KE's plan. The French Riviera is a major tourist draw (Cannes, Nice, Monaco, and the outback's villages).

I think the talk about secondary cities is slightly off. I would not park Basel, Oslo or Dublin under secondary cities. All of this cities have a rich history, tourist attractions and an active business community.
Zagreb has history, tourist attractions and is the gateway to one of Europe's most beautiful and historic coastlines. The business part is growing.

If the talk is about secondary airports, it would sound slightly different. But is not all the talk about point to point and bypassing the big hubs?

mjoelnir wrote:

I think the talk about secondary cities is slightly off. I would not park Basel, Oslo or Dublin under secondary cities. All of this cities have a rich history, tourist attractions and an active business community.
Zagreb has history, tourist attractions and is the gateway to one of Europe's most beautiful and historic coastlines. The business part is growing.

If the talk is about secondary airports, it would sound slightly different. But is not all the talk about point to point and bypassing the big hubs?

It is a pretty accurate description, both from an aviation and economics perspective. The top tier cities in Europe are, IMO, restricted to the likes of LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, and maybe a few limited others (like MAD, BCN, FCO and MXP).

planemanofnz wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

I think the talk about secondary cities is slightly off. I would not park Basel, Oslo or Dublin under secondary cities. All of this cities have a rich history, tourist attractions and an active business community.
Zagreb has history, tourist attractions and is the gateway to one of Europe's most beautiful and historic coastlines. The business part is growing.

If the talk is about secondary airports, it would sound slightly different. But is not all the talk about point to point and bypassing the big hubs?

It is a pretty accurate description, both from an aviation and economics perspective. The top tier cities in Europe are, IMO, restricted to the likes of LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, and maybe a few limited others (like MAD, BCN, FCO and MXP).

It is exactly a description being quite off. You can call your list of LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA primary hubs regarding airports. And you can even call London and Paris primary cities in their region, but calling for example Frankfurt the primary city in Germany, is right of the mark. Germany has no primary city or several.