Virgin Atlantic will be ending its flights to Dubai in a review of the its network. VS last flight will be scheduled on 31MAR19. The airline has stated that several factors has lead to the decision to withdraw the route. Reservations to Dubai will be open until the last flight.


What reasons other than the direct competition with BA and EK has lead to the flights suspension? I have flown VS twice, the services are great.

did a price comparison between BA, EK and VS for the same travel period (01FEB19 - 07FEB19), BA was the most expensive price.

Emirates: AED2405 = $654
Virgin Atlantic: AED2375 = $646
British Airways: AED3105 = $845

So we can't say that they were under pricing the competition to gain market share. Sad to see them leaving.

Source: https://www.arabianbusiness.com/travel- ... ow-flights

Second airline announcing its leaving of LHR-DXB in a few weeks. BI being the other one (although for other reasons, supposedly).

we will never know the commercial factors actually behind this but I imagine more profit elsewhere by redeploying the frame/slot to a DL/VS TATL route. Also any feed at LHR may be from DL who are opening up direct to DXB? And yields aren't great given the huge EK operation ex UK. So all or some of the above?

De-coupling from supporting Virgin Holidays quite so closely?
Given Dubai is not in the US and adds little to the DL JV, isn't too much of a shock IMHO.

Only a matter of time IMHO. Frequency has got to come into it here. One flight a day against, is it three for BA and god knows how many for EK has to play a factor surely. looks like ORD all over again for VS.

I wonder how the aircraft and LHR slot will be repurposed?

xwb777 wrote:

Virgin Atlantic will be ending its flights to Dubai in a review of the its network. VS last flight will be scheduled on 31MAR19. The airline has stated that several factors has lead to the decision to withdraw the route. Reservations to Dubai will be open until the last flight.

Since Delta effectively controls VS, it's odd since Delta said the settlement with UAE fixed everything!

mutu wrote:

Also any feed at LHR may be from DL who are opening up direct to DXB?

I'll believe that when I see it. IMHO, they can't return unless they reinstate the interline agreement with EK because it was 30% of the passengers they were carrying to DXB. They won't reinstate it because it is of more value to EK at DL hubs in the USA than to DL for one route to DXB.

So this is an evening departure from LHR. I wonder what they will replace this with? Can 10:30pm departure work to the US? So South America / India / SE Asia? While they might have trouble filling the flight without US feed (I think they will only have JFK with the DXB slots), BLR might be an interesting place for VS to start. 9W is creating a mini hub there and perhaps premium J pax would prefer VS.

Very disappointing to continue to see the continued shrinking of the VS map. SYD, CUN, CPT, now DXB. I understand commercial pressures and how moving a flight from X which makes €1 to Y which makes €2 makes financial sense, but to continue to erode your footprint that you’re becoming almost entirely reliant on one market (US) doesn’t make good business sense either. Virgin are becoming an increasingly niche player, catering to an increasingly competitive market

Eirules wrote:

Very disappointing to continue to see the continued shrinking of the VS map. SYD, CUN, CPT, now DXB.

Don't forget TYO too.

Cheers,

C.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

So this is an evening departure from LHR. I wonder what they will replace this with? Can 10:30pm departure work to the US? So South America / India / SE Asia?

Good point, I don't think anything flying west from LHR at that time would work very well (the last LHR departures to JFK leave 7:50 pm)

Flying East at that time however works well,which would be a surprising move given the thought that DL will want to axe this route for a new US route/frequency.

A further possibility is that VS have had an offer to lease the slot to another airline, and the deal was too good to turn down?

So this leaves HKG, PVG, DEL and JNB as the only non US destinations from LHR?

Richard28 wrote:

So this leaves HKG, PVG, DEL and JNB as the only non US destinations from LHR?

And LOS

Predictable this would happen. Somehow LHR-HKG, LHR-DEL and LHR-PVG hang on. JNB I get because of the weakness of SAA. Any others left that aren't US flights from LHR?

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

And LOS

Thanks - forgot about that one!

Richard28 wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

So this is an evening departure from LHR. I wonder what they will replace this with? Can 10:30pm departure work to the US? So South America / India / SE Asia?

Good point, I don't think anything flying west from LHR at that time would work very well (the last LHR departures to JFK leave 7:50 pm)

Flying East at that time however works well,which would be a surprising move given the thought that DL will want to axe this route for a new US route/frequency.

A further possibility is that VS have had an offer to lease the slot to another airline, and the deal was too good to turn down?

So this leaves HKG, PVG, DEL and JNB as the only non US destinations from LHR?

Yup. I think the only market DL is really focused on in the region flying east (meaning ME/South Asia) is India. While I definitely don't think adding another city in India will be a gold mine, it does help keep Indian LCC and Norwegian at bay. India-UK definitely has demand. India-UK was one of the first routes that helped develop the ME3. It is no accident that the likes of Indigo, Spice all mention MAN and LGW. 9W announced BOM-MAN, I think, to keep Indigo out. LHR-BLR would be one to try only because corp account there would probably want it (as 9W builds their mini hub). I think 9W already flies BLR-SIN/DXB and is planning HKG. So really only LHR remains as "must haves" (SFO is a dream!).

Eirules wrote:

Very disappointing to continue to see the continued shrinking of the VS map. SYD, CUN, CPT, now DXB. I understand commercial pressures and how moving a flight from X which makes €1 to Y which makes €2 makes financial sense, but to continue to erode your footprint that you’re becoming almost entirely reliant on one market (US) doesn’t make good business sense either. Virgin are becoming an increasingly niche player, catering to an increasingly competitive market

But you also have to remember that that are doing far more flying from the regions than ever before with great expansion at MAN not to mention BFS and Scotland during the peak season. They have extended their markets within the UK where BA has ignored which can only be a good thing!

tonystan wrote:

Eirules wrote:

Very disappointing to continue to see the continued shrinking of the VS map. SYD, CUN, CPT, now DXB. I understand commercial pressures and how moving a flight from X which makes €1 to Y which makes €2 makes financial sense, but to continue to erode your footprint that you’re becoming almost entirely reliant on one market (US) doesn’t make good business sense either. Virgin are becoming an increasingly niche player, catering to an increasingly competitive market

But you also have to remember that that are doing far more flying from the regions than ever before with great expansion at MAN not to mention BFS and Scotland during the peak season. They have extended their markets within the UK where BA has ignored which can only be a good thing!

mutu wrote:

we will never know the commercial factors actually behind this but I imagine more profit elsewhere by redeploying the frame/slot to a DL/VS TATL route. Also any feed at LHR may be from DL who are opening up direct to DXB? And yields aren't great given the huge EK operation ex UK. So all or some of the above?

It's also important to note that BA has done what they can to prevent LHR from trading slots in order to set up a connecting bank structure, so VS has a lot of slots scattered throughout the day. This means they are very local dependent and it also means that DL is more and more likely to use VS to fly to the USA rather than attempt poor connects in LHR. On top of all of that, AF/KL also own a good chunk of VS and they have an interest in serving Eastbound pax over AMS/CDG.

Heartbroken.
Been flying VS on that route for over a decade now in both Y and Y+. The latter is excellent, usually very good value for money and much better than BA.
Just flew them last week on the A333. While flight was full, my ticket cost around 3500 AED return in Y+. I have old e-tickets from the mid 2000s and the price was the same-in normal Y.

?[/quote]
It's also important to note that BA has done what they can to prevent LHR from trading slots in order to set up a connecting bank structure, so VS has a lot of slots scattered throughout the day. This means they are very local dependent and it also means that DL is more and more likely to use VS to fly to the USA rather than attempt poor connects in LHR. On top of all of that, AF/KL also own a good chunk of VS and they have an interest in serving Eastbound pax over AMS/CDG.[/quote]

Whilst there is some truth there, VS were given reasonable slots for domestic after BA acquired BMI, and, like BMI could not make a go of it. The problem seems to be to fill domestics to LHR you need a varied network out of LHR for connections perhaps. Point to point is saturated into London (LHR LGW STN LTN) plus faster trains.

Not sure BA can control slot allocation at LHR as it is done by an impartial committee for each season overseeing slot allocations and trades. But I am no expert. What BA can do with a big slot pool is mix and match to adjust schedules using those slots to greatest efficiency. With smaller slot pools, you have less such flexibility. But AFKL/DL and VS between them should still be able to do some mixing up of slots to create more usable pairs.

Flight timings are different but as LAS is starting 31 March, when this finishes I assume this is the flight that is coming in to replace it.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... s-flights/

I can see why they would drop this flight as there is so much capacity from LHR and other London airports, and every other major airport in the UK going to DXB, the only way I can see them competing is by pricing really low.

Maybe the further question is what happens to the vacated LGW slots?

More like Du-BYE, amirite?

Major drop in capacity on DXB - LHR compared to 2017: QF's 2x daily A380's are gone, BI and VS are gone too.

3AWM wrote:

Flight timings are different but as LAS is starting 31 March, when this finishes I assume this is the flight that is coming in to replace it.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... s-flights/

I can see why they would drop this flight as there is so much capacity from LHR and other London airports, and every other major airport in the UK going to DXB, the only way I can see them competing is by pricing really low.

Maybe the further question is what happens to the vacated LGW slots?

The new LAS-LHR flight comes from one of the LAX frequencies dropping, VS141.

I'll say it before someone else does, LHR-MCO.

planemanofnz wrote:

Eirules wrote:

Very disappointing to continue to see the continued shrinking of the VS map. SYD, CUN, CPT, now DXB.

Don't forget TYO too.

Cheers,

C.

Are these all of the routes cut since DL took over or are there more?

What about LHR-NBO and a codeshare with Kenya Airways for local feed and onward connections to US destinations other than JFK or EWR? (I say other than that because KQ is introducing nonstop service to JFK in W18.

I don't see BOM coming back except as a codeshare with 9W, now triple daily to LHR.

mattpawlow wrote:

The new LAS-LHR flight comes from one of the LAX frequencies dropping, VS141.

What about the extra BOS, where does that come from?

soflaflyer wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

Eirules wrote:

Very disappointing to continue to see the continued shrinking of the VS map. SYD, CUN, CPT, now DXB.

Don't forget TYO too.

Cheers,

C.

Are these all of the routes cut since DL took over or are there more?

They also cut BOM and YVR also, at the same time as CPT and NRT.

EDIT:
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... e-network/

VS is quickly becoming the EI of the DL/AF/KL consortium

Expect fares to rise on LHR-DXB. 3 airlines off the route and a fair chunk of capacity disappearing.

I expect Emirates to add another flight in the near future if they can get the slots. Maybe on the 777 to get the game changing F into LHR.

It's hard to compete against EK which has the following daily flights to the London area:

LHR - 6 (388)
LGW - 3 (288)
STN -1 (77W)

That's 700 flights a week and BA has 19 a week. VS has no doubt figured out how to make more money elsewhere.

gunnerman wrote:

It's hard to compete against EK which has the following daily flights to the London area:

LHR - 6 (388)
LGW - 3 (288)
STN -1 (77W)

That's 700 flights a week and BA has 19 a week. VS has no doubt figured out how to make more money elsewhere.

700 flights a week? Do you mean 70...

How about LHR-ICN?

Does the VS LHR-HKG flight sync up with the VA HKG-SYD route?

Slot and aircraft goes straight to the second daily BOS next summer. Whether the BOS is sustainable in the winter is a whole different question. If they can sort the 787 engine issues then I would not be surprised to see CPT back in the winter.

Although Virgin Holidays does well in Dubai, it was only on the basis of the Virgin service. I'm told Emirates would never give them access to other routes to be able to sell Dubai from MAN, GLA, BHX etc. It may be that if Ezk now reverse that position, Virgin Holidays can make more money for the group than the airline ever could by flying LHR-DXB, especially if VHols get access to the Indian Ocean points through EK too.

LHR-AUS would be advantageous

questions wrote:

How about LHR-ICN?

Does the VS LHR-HKG flight sync up with the VA HKG-SYD route?

It will do yes, although the connection westbound involves a fairly long wait. I'm actually booked to do this in a couple of weeks, I chose VS because frankly I doubt they'll be on the route for much longer.

I heard VS did OK to Dubai on the back of Premium Economy, I don't know if that's true, but with Emirate's introducing it I suppose VS could see the writing on the wall.

I suspect we'll see VS become more focused on UK regions and LGW to holiday destinations, competing against Thomas Cook and Tui - who they can charge a premium against.

At LHR I suspect the future is flying for DL's JV, plus maybe South Africa as SAA is such a joke.

questions wrote:

How about LHR-ICN?

Does the VS LHR-HKG flight sync up with the VA HKG-SYD route?

Yes, ex LHR the VS LHR-HKG syncs very nicely with both VA's HKG-SYD and HKG-MEL routes
connections aren't as great ex MEL/SYD however.

I think onboard the VS flight to HKG that I had the other week they mentioned about 3 or 4 times "welcome to our Virgin Australia guests" so they're not being shy about getting the message across.

I agree team with up with DL start AUS. Since DL want's to use AUS as future hub. DL can start adding flights using AUS as feeder to XXX - AUS - LHR - XXX.

Lol Virgin Atlantic should try Islamabad, not bad idea new airport, lot of business between the two cities.

enilria wrote:

IMHO, they can't return unless they reinstate the interline agreement with EK because it was 30% of the passengers they were carrying to DXB. They won't reinstate it because it is of more value to EK at DL hubs in the USA than to DL for one route to DXB.

VS had been trying to negotiate a QF style JV with EK for years, which was unacceptable to DL.

Why not fly to BAH, MCT, OR AUH. Code share with Oman air, Etihad, or Gulf Air.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I don't see BOM coming back except as a codeshare with 9W, now triple daily to LHR.

I think they already have a pretty good code share in place with 9W on USA-LHR so yeah, I'd be very surprised if BOM comes back.

AUS makes sense particularly with the news about DL.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Yup. I think the only market DL is really focused on in the region flying east (meaning ME/South Asia) is India. While I definitely don't think adding another city in India will be a gold mine, it does help keep Indian LCC and Norwegian at bay. India-UK definitely has demand. India-UK was one of the first routes that helped develop the ME3. It is no accident that the likes of Indigo, Spice all mention MAN and LGW. 9W announced BOM-MAN, I think, to keep Indigo out. LHR-BLR would be one to try only because corp account there would probably want it (as 9W builds their mini hub). I think 9W already flies BLR-SIN/DXB and is planning HKG. So really only LHR remains as "must haves" (SFO is a dream!).

How did IT do with their A330 flight when they were operating LHR? 3 x Weekly on A330 just to test the waters?

Why not fly to CGK, team up with Garuda. Garuda help them cover AKL, SYD, MEL, PER, and other destinations. As BA has MH. They can use Garuda, or team up with SQ.

Dubai is a transfer airport. Doesnt really seem like a shock.

questions wrote:

How about LHR-ICN?

That would require an earlier slot...around a noontime departure from Heathrow. The concept of LHR-ICN makes a lot of sense with the DL/KE joint venture. The idea of adding VS (and AM) to that JV sounds tantalizing. KE could likely help find a slot at ICN and give European-bound passengers another option to London. Currently, KE has 9 weekly slots into LHR: a daily passenger flight (KE907 into LHR, KE908 to ICN) and a 2x-weekly cargo flight on the B777F...(KE503 ICN-LHR-CDG). KE could have interest since it could have a passenger flight heading to Heathrow at a time competitive with British Airways, if it can get a VS noontime departure from LHR. As for what slot it could give up to make it happen---when the A35Ks come in, a JFK flight can be surrendered while other JFK flights get upgauged. Does VS have any slots into Heathrow around 2:00 PM? It is possible to turn a B789 in 2 hours since Korean Air is able to turn around an A380 in about 2 hours at JFK.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

Dubai is a transfer airport. Doesnt really seem like a shock.

But UK-DXB is still a big market for O&D.

DL747400 wrote:

I wonder how the aircraft and LHR slot will be repurposed?

ZuluTime wrote:

Slot and aircraft goes straight to the second daily BOS next summer. Whether the BOS is sustainable in the winter is a whole different question. If they can sort the 787 engine issues then I would not be surprised to see CPT back in the winter.

How does the slot go to BOS? The arrival was around 2pm and departure around 2100-2200 from LHR... those don't work for BOS.

when they dropped NBO/ACC the slots werent repurposed as the evening slots at LHR were easier to come by.

Eirules wrote:

Very disappointing to continue to see the continued shrinking of the VS map. SYD, CUN, CPT, now DXB. I understand commercial pressures and how moving a flight from X which makes €1 to Y which makes €2 makes financial sense, but to continue to erode your footprint that you’re becoming almost entirely reliant on one market (US) doesn’t make good business sense either. Virgin are becoming an increasingly niche player, catering to an increasingly competitive market

NBO, ACC, CPT, KIN, VRA, NRT, BOM, YVR, SYD, CUN and now DXB are all routes culled in the last 5 years.

I really do wonder if VS have a long term future - especially once DL & AFKL have majority ownership and therefore control. Is it worth keeping the Virgin Brand and the royalty fees that entails for a loss making airline?

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

Dubai is a transfer airport. Doesnt really seem like a shock.

Not really, now it quite a tourist/business hub as well.

Why not London to Panama or somewhere else in Latin/South America partner with Avianca or Copa on the other end?

aemoreira1981 wrote:

questions wrote:

How about LHR-ICN?

The concept of LHR-ICN makes a lot of sense with the DL/KE joint venture.

I like the idea of LHR - ICN for VS too - it would solve KE's dilemna of not being able to offer quick transfers both ways between the UK and Australia / New Zealand (given that KE generally only serves each of LHR, SYD, BNE and AKL with one flight per day, each, requiring an overnight ICN stop one-way). KE also wouldn't overlap with VS' VA relationship for LHR - MEL traffic, as KE doesn't serve MEL.

Cheers,

C.

LH658 wrote:

Why not fly to CGK, team up with Garuda. Garuda help them cover AKL, SYD, MEL, PER, and other destinations.

A few points:

- GA does not fly to BNE, AKL and other important Australasian destinations
- CGK is a horrible airport to transit at, and would lose against SIN/DXB/HKG
- A GGK stop would require a back-track to most other places within ASEAN

I much prefer a tie-up with KE, which would tie-in nicely to VS' DL partnership.

ICN is a beautiful transit point, and offers Japan / Australia / New Zealand too.

Cheers,

C.