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SCQ83
Posts: 5831
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:17 pm

I think Virgin Atlantic should be rebranded in something like Delta Atlantic UK or Delta Virgin or sth like that, and integrated in Skyteam.

IMO it would raise brand awareness both in the UK and US.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1472
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:12 am

SCQ83 wrote:
I think Virgin Atlantic should be rebranded in something like Delta Atlantic UK or Delta Virgin or sth like that, and integrated in Skyteam.

IMO it would raise brand awareness both in the UK and US.


I can't see that happening for as long as the Virgin Group still have a stake in VS.

There's also the challenge of brand awareness because Virgin as a brand has a greater household awareness/appeal in the UK compared to Delta. Obviously that's different in the USA, but then Virgin isn't exactly an unknown brand there.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:22 pm

OMAAbound wrote:
As has been posted earlier, the slots for this will be used to work the second daily Boston flight.

As far as I am aware, the slots have been traded with another airline too accommodate the Boston.

It’s not known who these slots have been traded with, but the rumours doing the round in the office, is that it’s too do with the ‘Little Red’ service which was discontinued a few years ago. (Use your brain and it’s not hard to work out)

Hopefully this clears things up.

OMAA

Doesn't clear things up for me either.
Little Red's slots were from BA (as competition remedy slots) for the EDI and ABZ services, and from VS itself and DL(1) for the MAN services. So which part of Little Red operations are you referring to? The EDI and ABZ slots reverted to BA when the Little Red operation drowned in red ink. Subsequently BE started EDI and ABZ services using remedy slots, again obtained from BA. These aren't the same timed slots as Little Red used and cannot be traded with any other airline (other than back to BA) before 2020. Even then they couldn't be used for a flight to Boston as destinations are restricted to those in Europe, plus Moscow and Riyadh under the slot award conditions.

So are you really saying the slots have been traded with BA or with Delta?
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:59 pm

so.... to clear up the above reply's...
the slot WILL be used for BOS, just not at a 22:30 departure, this slot has been traded with BE..? who will use the 22:30 dep slot for a EDI flight..?

or am i a million miles off the mark..?
 
ZuluTime
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:34 pm

The Little Red slots for the Edinburgh and Aberdeen routes were obtained under the remedy slot process from British Airways. Those were returned to British Airways when Little Red was closed. Flybe has subsequently obtained slots for the same routes (although at different times) from BA as it is obliged to provide them under the process defined in the competition remedies accepted for the acquisition of bmi.

Little Red also flew to Manchester. No remedy slots were available to VS for Manchester and so VS' own slots which had been leased out to Aer Lingus since the 2008 cutbacks were recalled from EI to provide the three daily MAN-LHR flights. When Little Red closed, these remained VS slots. It also had another pair of late evening slots which were on lease to another carrier (now Cobalt).

VS used the morning LHR slot previously flown to/from Manchester on an additional transatlantic service.

The afternoon two sets of LHR slots for Manchester were then leased out to Iberia and are now with Vueling covering the evening LHR-LCG and LHR-BCN services.

The new Boston will sit on the La Coruna Vueling slots. The Dubai slots are then surplus to requirements to be leased out - whether to Vueling to keep La Coruna at Heathrow or elsewhere is not yet known.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4957
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:41 pm

I wouldnt be surprised if we saw a city or two more get cut to feed some North American flights.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3232
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:10 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
I think Virgin Atlantic should be rebranded in something like Delta Atlantic UK or Delta Virgin or sth like that, and integrated in Skyteam.

IMO it would raise brand awareness both in the UK and US.


I can't see that happening for as long as the Virgin Group still have a stake in VS.

There's also the challenge of brand awareness because Virgin as a brand has a greater household awareness/appeal in the UK compared to Delta. Obviously that's different in the USA, but then Virgin isn't exactly an unknown brand there.


Virgin Atlantic is massive in the UK. Won't happen. Would do the airline more harm than good.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:10 pm

ZuluTime wrote:
The Little Red slots for the Edinburgh and Aberdeen routes were obtained under the remedy slot process from British Airways. Those were returned to British Airways when Little Red was closed. Flybe has subsequently obtained slots for the same routes (although at different times) from BA as it is obliged to provide them under the process defined in the competition remedies accepted for the acquisition of bmi.

Little Red also flew to Manchester. No remedy slots were available to VS for Manchester and so VS' own slots which had been leased out to Aer Lingus since the 2008 cutbacks were recalled from EI to provide the three daily MAN-LHR flights. When Little Red closed, these remained VS slots. It also had another pair of late evening slots which were on lease to another carrier (now Cobalt).

VS used the morning LHR slot previously flown to/from Manchester on an additional transatlantic service.

The afternoon two sets of LHR slots for Manchester were then leased out to Iberia and are now with Vueling covering the evening LHR-LCG and LHR-BCN services.

The new Boston will sit on the La Coruna Vueling slots. The Dubai slots are then surplus to requirements to be leased out - whether to Vueling to keep La Coruna at Heathrow or elsewhere is not yet known.


Excellent post and very well written '' you've obviously used your brain'' I hopefully that actually ''clears things up'' for all of those posters who are not so informed regarding those slots!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:40 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
LH658 wrote:
How is Virgin Manchester operations?


I think it's fair to say the picture is mixed.

On the one hand, the seat capacity continues to increase reasonably quickly on a year to year basis. They continue to open new routes (LAX) and increase frequencies to existing ones (LAS, BOS). There is a partnership with Jet, and a clear desire to route India-USA traffic via MAN. It is not unreasonable to think that VS might launch MAN-DEL (if Jet do not do so beforehand).

On the other hand, there are clear issues caused by VS's B789 problems, many of the new routes remain seasonal and relatively low (3-4x weekly) frequency. Even the thicker routes (e.g. ATL/JFK) have low winter frequency because of the need to use the B744 in the short term. Also, it looks like SFO has been cut in favour of LAX but this has not been officially confirmed (as far as I can tell although this may be wrong).

In summary, the long term prospects for VS at MAN look fairly positive and MAN can expect a reasonable growth in frequencies and route options from VS - particularly TATL. It may be that the JV sees a niche that can be exploited, and I'd not be surprised if KE add MAN to their network in the next year or two. However, for this to be realised, the B789 issue needs a positive resolution as the A333/332 fleet is pretty much ideal for the Manchester market.

Hope this helps.


Summed up pretty perfectly. Once Virgin get the 787 issues behind them (if ever haha!) then I think the picture at MAN gets ever better. A333's and A332's with the odd A35K based at MAN leave Virgin with arguably the best long haul business and leisure operation at Manchester, with a streamlined, modern and efficient fleet framework.
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY // Upcoming: W6 A320, W6 A321, EVA 77W, VS 787-9m AS A320, VS A35K, KLM E190, KLM 738, LS 737
 
LH658
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:49 pm

Surprised BA doesn't have well established destination choice from BHX, MAN, NCL, EDI, and etc after all it called British Airways. Virgin should take efforts on making MAN a better hub. Flying into MAN and taking train to London is cheaper anyways than flying DFW to LHR direct.
 
B-HOP
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 8:09 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:30 am

For the 22:30 departure slot, I would expect an extra to either HKG or Shanghai or a mix of two with morning arrivals back at LHR 2 days later, HKG, with better connection time from VA from both MEL/SYD, maybe able to support a second flight, with either JNB/MIA to move to one of the West Coast flights slots and 1 of the West coast flights move to take the original 4 pm arrival slots, or else, they could attempt ACC again, but apart from these two, not much use for US flights
Live life to max!!!
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:23 am

LH658 wrote:
Surprised BA doesn't have well established destination choice from BHX, MAN, NCL, EDI, and etc after all it called British Airways.

And yet nobody here expects American Airlines to offer a well established choice of international destinations from IAD, IAH, DEN, SEA, SLC, ATL, SFO, DTW, MSP etc. They do offer a one-stop choice via their hub cities of course. Why is it acceptable behaviour for a US airline not to provide nonstop international flights from every city but to use a hub system instead, and not for a UK one?

As far as longer distance flying from BHX is concerned, no airline seems to be able to make TATL flights work consistently, and only flights to the Indian subcontinent seem to work as non-stops, why would you suppose BA should be any better at it? The flights by TK, EK and QR to their hubs with a vast range of eastward and southward connections work too, but hub and spoke again...
 
aeropix
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:38 am

Andy33 wrote:
LH658 wrote:
Surprised BA doesn't have well established destination choice from BHX, MAN, NCL, EDI, and etc after all it called British Airways.

Why is it acceptable behaviour for a US airline not to provide nonstop international flights from every city but to use a hub system instead, and not for a UK one?


Probably because of the lingering legacy of British Airways past as a government - owned national airline, vs. the entirely private-industry roots of American carriers. This, combined with the more socialized culture in the UK (nationalized medicine and other social benefit programs, etc.) leads to the impression that then UK former National carrier should be administered differently than those on the other side of the Atlantic, in keeping with the different attitudes toward public goods in both areas.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4884
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:21 am

LH658 wrote:
Surprised BA doesn't have well established destination choice from BHX, MAN, NCL, EDI, and etc after all it called British Airways. Virgin should take efforts on making MAN a better hub. Flying into MAN and taking train to London is cheaper anyways than flying DFW to LHR direct.

Why are you surprised? Who in their right mind flies to London via MAN and Virgin Trains?
The important thing here is to try and understand the nuances and complexities of the market before we all go off on classic airliners.nut #whatabouterry
There is a wealth of threads here on why things are they way they are and how these markets work, please have a read of one of the many, many, many. It saves another painful episode of "Why don't BA have a hub at MAN anymore"?
As to VS, their strategy to be a better choice than BA led them into core long haul markets out of LHR in the 90s, but they have been squeezed out one by one. SRB was right in opposing alliances only in that not being in one cost VS dearly. They were forced out of Japan when a Oneworld BA/JL became to strong and STAR's ANA scooped up the remaining market. Australia became untenable for similar reasons and Hong Kong is up against 5 a day Cathay and a 2 daily BA. The new strategy is to be an airline of choice across the North Atlantic with partner DL working with Skyteam, quite where flying to Pakistan supports that is anyone's guess, dropping NRT for ISB would be a brave move IMHO.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1170
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:32 am

BA used to operate flights from various UK airports. There was a sizeable operation at MAN including flights to JFK. There was an engineering base there as well. It was all closed years ago and even LGW-MAN was axed. Now MAN is just a regional airport with flights from LHR.

BA is LHR and LGW plus LCY for BA CityFlyer. It is why BA is sometimes called London Airways.
 
GRJGeorge
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:37 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:38 am

B-HOP wrote:
For the 22:30 departure slot, I would expect an extra to either HKG or Shanghai or a mix of two with morning arrivals back at LHR 2 days later, HKG, with better connection time from VA from both MEL/SYD, maybe able to support a second flight, with either JNB/MIA to move to one of the West Coast flights slots and 1 of the West coast flights move to take the original 4 pm arrival slots, or else, they could attempt ACC again, but apart from these two, not much use for US flights


Is the current schedule for the 2nd daily JNB flight to be launched end of October ideal, with different advantages over the current flight? I know it will arrive in JNB very early and spend a very long time there...won't it be better to rather have a later departure from LHR (like 22:30 departure then)?
 
User001
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:43 pm

gunnerman wrote:
BA used to operate flights from various UK airports. There was a sizeable operation at MAN including flights to JFK. There was an engineering base there as well. It was all closed years ago and even LGW-MAN was axed. Now MAN is just a regional airport with flights from LHR.

BA is LHR and LGW plus LCY for BA CityFlyer. It is why BA is sometimes called London Airways.


BA and it’s subsidiaries operate LHR/LCY/DUB/PMI/AGP/ALC/IBZ/JMK/NCE/CMF/SZG/GOT/BLL/FLR and from this winter, OSL too. Regardless of the technicalitie, these are BA flights, using BA metal, using BA uniformed crew and BA flight numbers, so, more than ‘just LHR’.
 
LH658
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:20 am

Other airline operate out of MAN and BHX just figured some more long haul options.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:32 am

LH658 wrote:
Other airline operate out of MAN and BHX just figured some more long haul options.


Can you possibly reword your post as I'm having difficulties trying to understand what your actually referring to!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
LH658
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:53 am

Cunard wrote:
LH658 wrote:
Other airline operate out of MAN and BHX just figured some more long haul options.


Can you possibly reword your post as I'm having difficulties trying to understand what your actually referring to!


Other airlines operate out of BHX and MAN with decent long haul operation, I know they are just pulling traffic out to ship out there hubs like SQ, EK, EY and etc. BA can fly MAN/ BHX to KUL send traffic out via MH from KUL or CX from HKG. Just some random suggestions that could work.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:29 am

CX already fly from MAN to HKG so no reason for BA to as well the local market couldn't support two airlines operating the route.

Random to say the least, I'm afraid we're witness Armageddon long before we ever see British Airways starting BHX/MAN to KUL.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
B-HOP
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 8:09 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic drops Dubai

Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:09 am

GRJGeorge wrote:
B-HOP wrote:
For the 22:30 departure slot, I would expect an extra to either HKG or Shanghai or a mix of two with morning arrivals back at LHR 2 days later, HKG, with better connection time from VA from both MEL/SYD, maybe able to support a second flight, with either JNB/MIA to move to one of the West Coast flights slots and 1 of the West coast flights move to take the original 4 pm arrival slots, or else, they could attempt ACC again, but apart from these two, not much use for US flights


Is the current schedule for the 2nd daily JNB flight to be launched end of October ideal, with different advantages over the current flight? I know it will arrive in JNB very early and spend a very long time there...won't it be better to rather have a later departure from LHR (like 22:30 departure then)?


It could do, but there could be slots issues at the other end, along with whether adequate connection could be provided for Cape Town since you would arrive late morning and the rush (and connection flights) in JNB already gone and that even moving the 1645 for new flights to Far East would still be too late for the 1555 slots return, so VS probaly have something else up their sleeves, a 2010 arrival next summer would be needed for the new BOS flight
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