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neomax
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Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:40 pm

Recently looked on Google Maps and you can clearly and visibly see repaving of the tarmac near the site of what would be Terminal F. How long before an official announcement? I have to assume that they're not repaving it just for fun, a new terminal would make a lot of sense. Clearing way is essentially the start of construction and if this is the case I would assume they would have finalized or be pretty close to finalizing plans to build a new terminal to have now started the construction process.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:47 pm

Looks like they expanded the area where QF's 380 naps between flights, they even added lights.
FI and WW now RON at DFW , so the extra ramp space was needed
 
7H4
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:48 pm

As far as I understand it, they are just "preparing" for the eventual site of terminal F. I don't believe any public plans have been unveiled as of yet. I would expect an announcement sooner rather than later though.
Any comments/claims/statements are my own and not those of my employer or anyone else.
#RIPHerb
 
mcoatc
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:00 pm

The work is already done, although it is not yet open. At this point, it's simply a hardstand ramp with underground fueling points. It will open up the parking in the low D alley where much of that is already done, and add additional parking spaces.

Anything beyond that is speculation. No terminal has been announced and the airport has been pretty tight lipped about it.
 
AA737-823
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:03 pm

There was quite a bit of discussion in one of the DFW airport threads, over the past couple months.
As I recall from that discussion, nothing major is going on there, yet. Just some prep work.
The airport is still trying (and arguing with American, who allegedly wants to tear down the whole airport and start over with linear concourses and a central terminal or two, but again, that's water cooler talk) to figure out how to handle the situation between C (which wasn't renovated during the TRIP process, after all) and F.
Do they build a new terminal and move C flights to it? Tear down C? Remodel C? Or just do C like they did the other three original terminals, piecemeal, and handle asbestos mitigation accordingly.
Anyway, lots of rumor, very little fact.
 
Antarius
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:44 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
There was quite a bit of discussion in one of the DFW airport threads, over the past couple months.
As I recall from that discussion, nothing major is going on there, yet. Just some prep work.
The airport is still trying (and arguing with American, who allegedly wants to tear down the whole airport and start over with linear concourses and a central terminal or two, but again, that's water cooler talk) to figure out how to handle the situation between C (which wasn't renovated during the TRIP process, after all) and F.
Do they build a new terminal and move C flights to it? Tear down C? Remodel C? Or just do C like they did the other three original terminals, piecemeal, and handle asbestos mitigation accordingly.
Anyway, lots of rumor, very little fact.


I wish DFW would build F to be a central terminal - all baggage claim, security, check in etc. is there. A-E then are concourses.

DFW is a incredible airport to connect in, but it royally sucks for O&D especially with a checked bag. Park at A, land at C..
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
texl1649
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:44 pm

I just wish DFW didn’t entail 20 minutes of taxiing and then waiting ten minutes to get into the gate due to your “surprise” arrival. I am always amazed at the inability of AA to coordinate, and swiftly handle Dallas inbound flights, to this day.
 
Okie
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:17 am

texl1649 wrote:
I just wish DFW didn’t entail 20 minutes of taxiing and then waiting ten minutes to get into the gate due to your “surprise” arrival. I am always amazed at the inability of AA to coordinate, and swiftly handle Dallas inbound flights, to this day.


Yes the "surprise arrival" got old after about the first 15-20 times I heard it. Nothing like waiting sometimes 45 minutes or more for a gate after you "surprise" the ground crew.

********
I just start with WN-DAL first before moving to AA-DFW when other options are not available.

Okie
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:42 am

Antarius wrote:

I wish DFW would build F to be a central terminal - all baggage claim, security, check in etc. is there. A-E then are concourses.

DFW is a incredible airport to connect in, but it royally sucks for O&D especially with a checked bag. Park at A, land at C..


Truth. When I lived in the DFW area, I was forever leaving out of, and parking at, 3E, only to return via 2E. With rhe proliferation of AA terminals, this has increased...though, the Skylink does help quite a bit. DFW is still a pleasant experience, compared to many other airports I can think of.

It is, indeed, utterly ironic, however, that O&D has become more difficult than connecting because one of rhe original selling points of the DFW terminal layout was the minimum of walking required to your gate after parking your car.
Last edited by millionsofmiles on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:53 am

texl1649 wrote:
I just wish DFW didn’t entail 20 minutes of taxiing and then waiting ten minutes to get into the gate due to your “surprise” arrival. I am always amazed at the inability of AA to coordinate, and swiftly handle Dallas inbound flights, to this day.


You really can't blame DFW or AA for everything. Movement wise it's the 4th busiest in the world. It's going to take time to taxi, especially if you land on 13R/31L or west side runways and going to east side terminals. I've been flying out of there for 30 years, and I don't see delays for gates any worse than any other big airport.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
Okie
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:55 am

millionsofmiles wrote:
It is, indeed, utterly ironic, however, that O&D has become more difficult than connecting because one of rhe original selling points of the DFW terminal layout was the minimum of walking required to get to your gate after parking your car

Yes 40 years on after DFW being built, that dynamic has fallen to the wayside. MCI is in the same boat.
I will have to at least disagree on the Skylink in that it helps a lot as far as I am concerned.

Okie
 
jplatts
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:10 am

Here is what DFW Airport was originally planned to look like in 2001:
Image
DFW Airport in 2001 by Noah Jeppson, on Flickr

The view of the airport shown in the above picture is looking from the southwest towards the northeast, with the SH 114/SH 121 interchange located in the upper left-hand corner and with the SH 183/SH 360 interchange located in the lower right-hand corner.

Here are the originally planned terminals that were shown in the picture above (from top to bottom):
  • Terminals 0W and 0E - never built
  • Terminals 1W (current location of Express North parking lot) and 1E - never built
  • Terminals 2W (now Terminal B) and 2E (now Terminal A)
  • Terminals 3W (now Terminal D, but built with a different design than originally planned) and 3E (now Terminal C)
  • Terminals 4W (location of future Terminal F) and 4E (now Terminal E)
  • Terminals 5W (will be designated as Terminal H if ever built) and 5E (will be designated as Terminal G if ever built) - never built
  • Terminal 6E - never built

I have previously mentioned that a new terminal in the current location of the Express North parking lot could be built in order to accommodate WN operations at DFW. WN would be able to more easily do quick turnarounds at DFW if a new terminal is built in the current location of the Express North parking lot since a new terminal in this location is right next to Runway 18L, which would allow WN to easily taxi to Runway 18L for departures when flights are departing from the north.

Terminals G and H could also be built south of Terminals E and F at DFW in order to accommodate DL, UA, and domestic LCC's if necessary.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:13 am

Okie wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
It is, indeed, utterly ironic, however, that O&D has become more difficult than connecting because one of rhe original selling points of the DFW terminal layout was the minimum of walking required to get to your gate after parking your car

Yes 40 years on after DFW being built, that dynamic has fallen to the wayside. MCI is in the same boat.
I will have to at least disagree on the Skylink in that it helps a lot as far as I am concerned.

Okie


I stated that the Skylink helps quite a bit.

Reading is fundamental.
 
airplaneboy
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:14 am

This will be WN’s terminal after the full repeal of the Wright Amendment ;)
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:32 am

Antarius wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
(and arguing with American, who allegedly wants to tear down the whole airport and start over with linear concourses and a central terminal or two, but again, that's water cooler talk)

Dear God.... Get Doug Parker away from DFW, ASAP!
And, we lived in Dallas for 4 years and loved using DFW (except for the drive out there).
Last edited by GSPSPOT on Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
ubeema
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:34 am

jplatts wrote:
Here is what DFW Airport was originally planned to look like in 2001:
Image
DFW Airport in 2001 by Noah Jeppson, on Flickr

The view of the airport shown in the above picture is looking from the southwest towards the northeast, with the SH 114/SH 121 interchange located in the upper left-hand corner and with the SH 183/SH 360 interchange located in the lower right-hand corner.

Here are the originally planned terminals that were shown in the picture above (from top to bottom):
  • Terminals 0W and 0E - never built
  • Terminals 1W (current location of Express North parking lot) and 1E - never built
  • Terminals 2W (now Terminal B) and 2E (now Terminal A)
  • Terminals 3W (now Terminal D, but built with a different design than originally planned) and 3E (now Terminal C)
  • Terminals 4W (location of future Terminal F) and 4E (now Terminal E)
  • Terminals 5W (will be designated as Terminal H if ever built) and 5E (will be designated as Terminal G if ever built) - never built
  • Terminal 6E - never built

I have previously mentioned that a new terminal in the current location of the Express North parking lot could be built in order to accommodate WN operations at DFW. WN would be able to more easily do quick turnarounds at DFW if a new terminal is built in the current location of the Express North parking lot since a new terminal in this location is right next to Runway 18L, which would allow WN to easily taxi to Runway 18L for departures when flights are departing from the north.

Terminals G and H could also be built south of Terminals E and F at DFW in order to accommodate DL, UA, and domestic LCC's if necessary.

Thanks for the history. First time I hav always wondered why so much slack space around. All cleared up now.
 
ubeema
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:47 am

Antarius wrote:
DFW is a incredible airport to connect in, but it royally sucks for O&D especially with a checked bag. Park at A, land at C..

At least you can valet the car to mitigate the extra walk or shuttle wait. Only $7 extra
 
Antarius
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:55 am

ubeema wrote:
Antarius wrote:
DFW is a incredible airport to connect in, but it royally sucks for O&D especially with a checked bag. Park at A, land at C..

At least you can valet the car to mitigate the extra walk or shuttle wait. Only $7 extra


Haha true. I no longer live in Dallas so I am now a connecting pax. And DFW is, IMO, the best large airport in the world for connecting- any gate to any gate in 10 minutes or less.

When I was DFW based, I avoided checking bags as I could skylink to where I parked.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
legend500
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:20 am

ubeema wrote:
Antarius wrote:
DFW is a incredible airport to connect in, but it royally sucks for O&D especially with a checked bag. Park at A, land at C..

At least you can valet the car to mitigate the extra walk or shuttle wait. Only $7 extra


It wouldn't be Dallas without a valet at every possible location.

jplatts wrote:
Here is what DFW Airport was originally planned to look like in 2001:
Image
DFW Airport in 2001 by Noah Jeppson, on Flickr

The view of the airport shown in the above picture is looking from the southwest towards the northeast, with the SH 114/SH 121 interchange located in the upper left-hand corner and with the SH 183/SH 360 interchange located in the lower right-hand corner.


I actually have a copy of the opening program and all of the major plan updates, and some additional flavor to what you're seeing in the build out model:

  • Note the 2 large apron areas straddling the spine on the right and the upper-left of the picture - these are the cargo hubs as originally planned, and were maintained in the Master Plan until about a decade ago. These never became necessary, as the amount of air traffic needed for passenger operations never lessened to the level where DFW could handle quite so much cargo. Remember, it was the 70's, and it was generally assumed that airlines would opt for aircraft size (this was the age of the 747SP) over frequency, allowing more slots for cargo ops. Ultimately, these didn't need to be built, as the opening of AFW allowed for cargo flights to be redirected, and because...
  • Note the large set of buildings crammed into the elbow on the left side of the airfield, and the long set in the opposite elbow - these are the respective maintenance bases (and in BN's case, HQ) for BN (left), AA (right, from the armpit to the B/A taxiways) and DL (from the B/A taxiways to the right). Of course, BN ran into some issues, so AA took over part of the space, and cargo ops were concentrated in the BN space instead of built elsewhere. AA's maintenance base never got built (like cargo, it instead was moved to AFW), and DL only built one hangar, which AA eventually took over and expanded.
  • Terminal 6E actually got kinda-built in a fashion somewhat resembling the original, except it's the location of the horseshoe shaped consolidated Rental Car Center.
  • In fact, of the original 14 terminal spaces, 10 saw at least partial build-out, with only 0W, 0E, 1E and 5W never really seeing use.
  • If you look closely, both sides of the airport have seperate STOL facilities - one for Dallas and one for Ft. Worth. But this isn't the only 70's-era tech which makes an appearance here but never actually got off the ground...
  • In the fervor of the supersonic age and the space age, it was assumed that both supersonic and commercial space travel were imminent, and DFW was designed to accommodate both - the most outward sign of this being the incredible length of two runways - 17C/35C and 18R/36L, which as indicated on the map were both designed to be extended to a maximum of 20,000ft/6100m.
  • AA's current concern generally deals with its desired linearization of DFW's terminals, but this is an idea which first started popping up in the late 90's, where designs of that era start to show buildouts with long, linear terminals in the 0-1, 4W-5W, and 5E spots.
  • Perhaps the most shocking, but in an only-once-somebody-points-it-out-to-you way, is that the 2001 projection shows the encroachment of Irving on the right side of the picture and Grapevine on the left, but otherwise completely surrounded by farmland. This is the one case where the visionary future plan was totally under-optimistic.
 
flyua
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:00 am

Legend500,

That’s one the richest, most interesting posts I’ve ever read on airliners.net.

Thank you!
 
grbauc
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:40 am

texl1649 wrote:
I just wish DFW didn’t entail 20 minutes of taxiing and then waiting ten minutes to get into the gate due to your “surprise” arrival. I am always amazed at the inability of AA to coordinate, and swiftly handle Dallas inbound flights, to this day.



Isn't that just a any airline airport issue? I fly LAX and have that happen on all carriers, and have had that issue years ago on SW at Las, and AA at PHX also. It's a air travel issue. Some are better at certain places then others but all fail at it in general.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:02 am

jplatts wrote:
Here is what DFW Airport was originally planned to look like in 2001:
Image
DFW Airport in 2001 by Noah Jeppson, on Flickr

The view of the airport shown in the above picture is looking from the southwest towards the northeast, with the SH 114/SH 121 interchange located in the upper left-hand corner and with the SH 183/SH 360 interchange located in the lower right-hand corner.

Here are the originally planned terminals that were shown in the picture above (from top to bottom):
  • Terminals 0W and 0E - never built
  • Terminals 1W (current location of Express North parking lot) and 1E - never built
  • Terminals 2W (now Terminal B) and 2E (now Terminal A)
  • Terminals 3W (now Terminal D, but built with a different design than originally planned) and 3E (now Terminal C)
  • Terminals 4W (location of future Terminal F) and 4E (now Terminal E)
  • Terminals 5W (will be designated as Terminal H if ever built) and 5E (will be designated as Terminal G if ever built) - never built
  • Terminal 6E - never built

I have previously mentioned that a new terminal in the current location of the Express North parking lot could be built in order to accommodate WN operations at DFW. WN would be able to more easily do quick turnarounds at DFW if a new terminal is built in the current location of the Express North parking lot since a new terminal in this location is right next to Runway 18L, which would allow WN to easily taxi to Runway 18L for departures when flights are departing from the north.

Terminals G and H could also be built south of Terminals E and F at DFW in order to accommodate DL, UA, and domestic LCC's if necessary.


Odd that the planners at DFW would start numbering at zero in a clean sheet design. I can see it at LAX for the new proposed terminal next to Terminal 1, because the terminal numbers are already assigned and it would be too confusing to renumber them. Must have been a mathematician or computer scientist at work at DFW. When and where will we see Terminal -1, like the underground levels in France?
 
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spinotter
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:04 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
Antarius wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
(and arguing with American, who allegedly wants to tear down the whole airport and start over with linear concourses and a central terminal or two, but again, that's water cooler talk)

Dear God.... Get Doug Parker away from DFW, ASAP!
And, we lived in Dallas for 4 years and loved using DFW (except for the drive out there).


LHR is essentially being rebuilt into a toaster rack design, so why not DFW?
 
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jmw99ttu
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:07 pm

I stumbled upon this video about the development of DFW last night. Very interesting information about the reason for building the airport and the vision for the future, plus some great vintage airliner movements!

http://www.texasarchive.org/library/ind ... 2015_02196
 
bob75013
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:27 pm

[quote="jplatts"

I have previously mentioned that a new terminal in the current location of the Express North parking lot could be built in order to accommodate WN operations at DFW. WN would be able to more easily do quick turnarounds at DFW if a new terminal is built in the current location of the Express North parking lot since a new terminal in this location is right next to Runway 18L, which would allow WN to easily taxi to Runway 18L for departures when flights are departing from the north.

.[/quote]

most of the year the winds are from the south and

Normally planes from destinations east of Dallas land runways on the east side of the airport for landing, and planes coming from the west land on the runways on the west side of the airport. WN has more traffic coming in to Dallas from the east than the west.

So, when the wind is from the south planes coming from east of DFW land on 17R and 17C, which result in a 10 minutes taxi, or even worse, land on 17L which entails a 15 minute taxi time.

DFW makes no sense for a company that operates the way that WN does --- no quick turnarounds allowed.
Last edited by bob75013 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
bob75013
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:31 pm

spinotter wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Dear God.... Get Doug Parker away from DFW, ASAP!
And, we lived in Dallas for 4 years and loved using DFW (except for the drive out there).


LHR is essentially being rebuilt into a toaster rack design, so why not DFW?



The short answer --- billions of $$$$$$$$$ -- just after spending hundreds of millions of $$$$$$ on renweing the existing teminals and parking garages.
 
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william
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:35 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
There was quite a bit of discussion in one of the DFW airport threads, over the past couple months.
As I recall from that discussion, nothing major is going on there, yet. Just some prep work.
The airport is still trying (and arguing with American, who allegedly wants to tear down the whole airport and start over with linear concourses and a central terminal or two, but again, that's water cooler talk) to figure out how to handle the situation between C (which wasn't renovated during the TRIP process, after all) and F.
Do they build a new terminal and move C flights to it? Tear down C? Remodel C? Or just do C like they did the other three original terminals, piecemeal, and handle asbestos mitigation accordingly.
Anyway, lots of rumor, very little fact.


Funny, how lately going through DFW, I have been using D and A most of time when connecting. Never had a flight leave or arrive at C. A week ago my flight arrived at one the "temporary" gates on the south side of C. I decided to skip Skylink and walk C to the D connector. I guess AA is trying make C look like the renovated terminals with the white paint. At least with the original earth tone colors hid dirt better. Nice to hear the familiar click clack of the roller bag wheels against the tile floor.

These rumors of AA wanting a linear terminal are interesting. I thought DFW was suppose to release an updated masterplan.
 
jplatts
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:17 pm

bob75013 wrote:
But most of the year the winds are from the south, so 18L isn't used that much - in the winter, maybe, but the rest of the year, not so much.

Normally planes from destinations east of Dallas use runways on the east side of the airport for landing, and planes coming from the west land on the runways on the west side of the airport. WN has more traffic coming in to Dallas from the east than the west.

So, when the wind is from the south planes land on 17R and 17C, which result in a 10 minutes taxi, or even worse, land on 17L which entails a 15 minute taxi time.

DFW makes no sense for a company that operates the way that WN does no quick turnarounds allowed.


WN has occasionally had to deal with longer taxi distances at a few of the U.S. airports that it currently operates out of, including ABQ, CVG, DEN, DTW, MCO, IAD, PHX, and STL. However, most of these airports have runways that are much closer to the WN gates. WN can deal with longer than normal taxi distances at DFW as WN does so at other airports currently served by WN, and WN can also take into account longer taxi times when scheduling flights.

A new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW (originally planned as Terminal 1W) would allow WN to easily taxi to Runway 17L for departures when winds are from the south since a new terminal in this location would be right next to the north end of Runway 17L. The short taxi distance to Runway 17L from a new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW would make it easier for WN to do quick turnarounds at DFW.
 
bob75013
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:49 pm

jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
But most of the year the winds are from the south, so 18L isn't used that much - in the winter, maybe, but the rest of the year, not so much.

Normally planes from destinations east of Dallas use runways on the east side of the airport for landing, and planes coming from the west land on the runways on the west side of the airport. WN has more traffic coming in to Dallas from the east than the west.

So, when the wind is from the south planes land on 17R and 17C, which result in a 10 minutes taxi, or even worse, land on 17L which entails a 15 minute taxi time.

DFW makes no sense for a company that operates the way that WN does no quick turnarounds allowed.


WN has occasionally had to deal with longer taxi distances at a few of the U.S. airports that it currently operates out of, including ABQ, CVG, DEN, DTW, MCO, IAD, PHX, and STL. However, most of these airports have runways that are much closer to the WN gates. WN can deal with longer than normal taxi distances at DFW as WN does so at other airports currently served by WN, and WN can also take into account longer taxi times when scheduling flights.

A new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW (originally planned as Terminal 1W) would allow WN to easily taxi to Runway 17L for departures when winds are from the south since a new terminal in this location would be right next to the north end of Runway 17L. The short taxi distance to Runway 17L from a new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW would make it easier for WN to do quick turnarounds at DFW.


But you ignore that ARRIVALS on 17 R,L,C would all involve 10-15 minute taxi times, and well over half of the arrivals would use those runways.
 
bob75013
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:55 pm

jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
But most of the year the winds are from the south, so 18L isn't used that much - in the winter, maybe, but the rest of the year, not so much.

Normally planes from destinations east of Dallas use runways on the east side of the airport for landing, and planes coming from the west land on the runways on the west side of the airport. WN has more traffic coming in to Dallas from the east than the west.

So, when the wind is from the south planes land on 17R and 17C, which result in a 10 minutes taxi, or even worse, land on 17L which entails a 15 minute taxi time.

DFW makes no sense for a company that operates the way that WN does no quick turnarounds allowed.


WN has occasionally had to deal with longer taxi distances at a few of the U.S. airports that it currently operates out of, including ABQ, CVG, DEN, DTW, MCO, IAD, PHX, and STL. However, most of these airports have runways that are much closer to the WN gates. WN can deal with longer than normal taxi distances at DFW as WN does so at other airports currently served by WN, and WN can also take into account longer taxi times when scheduling flights.

.



True, but at ABQ, CVG, DEN, DTW, PHX and STL - WN has no choice in the matter -- fly those airports or don't serve the cities. In Dallas/Ft. Worth WN DOES HAVE CHOICES.

especially since Mecham is apparently getting commercial service for the first time in 20 years.
 
LovePrunesAnet
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:04 am

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:21 pm

legend500 wrote:

I actually have a copy of the opening program and all of the major plan updates, and some additional flavor to what you're seeing in the build out model:

  • Terminal 6E actually got kinda-built in a fashion somewhat resembling the original, except it's the location of the horseshoe shaped consolidated Rental Car Center.


DFW conrac is not build where Terminal 6E "would have been" .
Google earth shows there is still room to build in that spot. They put the consolidate rental car center one more spot south of 6, where terminal 7E would have been
Last edited by LovePrunesAnet on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 741
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:25 pm

A liner terminal right down the middle of international parkway is a most interesting idea.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:25 pm

GSPSPOT wrote:
Antarius wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
(and arguing with American, who allegedly wants to tear down the whole airport and start over with linear concourses and a central terminal or two, but again, that's water cooler talk)

Dear God.... Get Doug Parker away from DFW, ASAP!
And, we lived in Dallas for 4 years and loved using DFW (except for the drive out there).


He's not the first one to say this. In the 80's (maybe 90s), there was talk of AA building one long linear terminal and concourse on the west side, basically going all the way to the taxiway overpasses on Int'l. Parkway. It would have resulted in the demolition of 2W. The economy wasn't great, but the price was very high. Doing it now would be futile because Skylink makes terminal transfers so much easier.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
LovePrunesAnet
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:04 am

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:26 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
A liner terminal right down the middle of international parkway is a most interesting idea.

i assume you mean LINEAR?

a straight one-sided linear terminal would have less capacity without the horseshoes. Think of it like eliminating all the cul de sacs in a residential neighborhood. everything would have to get jammed together closer to fit the same number of houses. Can't do that with gates that are already as close together as they already can be.
to have anything close to same capacity, would have to build the terminals way out in the middle to have gates on both sides of the linear terminal.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:32 pm

bob75013 wrote:
But you ignore that ARRIVALS on 17 R,L,C would all involve 10-15 minute taxi times, and well over half of the arrivals would use those runways.


I have actually meant to say Runway 18L instead of Runway 17L, and a new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW would be right next to the north end of Runway 18L at DFW.

A map showing the Express North parking lot at DFW (where a new terminal could be constructed) and the northern end of Runways 18L and 18R can be accessed at https://goo.gl/maps/4XNLffRJw8u.

WN is at LAX, and LAX actually carries more passengers per year than DFW does, with 58,788,000 passengers traveling to, from, or through LAX per year on domestic flights vs. 55,934,000 passengers traveling to, from, or through DFW per year on domestic flights. WN also serves BUR, LGB, ONT, and SNA in addition to LAX in the Greater Los Angeles area. Terminal 1 at LAX, where WN operates out of at LAX, is right next to Runway 24L at LAX.

One reason why WN insisted on repealing the Wright Amendment instead of serving DFW in addition to DAL 12 years ago is that WN's headquarters are at DAL. Another reason is that the Wright Amendment used to have through-ticketing restrictions that prohibited WN from selling connecting flights from DAL to destinations in states that WN could not serve nonstop from DAL under Wright Amendment restrictions.

WN is willing to serve more than 1 airport in some other metro areas, including Greater Seattle, the San Francisco Bay Area, Greater Los Angeles, Greater Boston, Greater New York City, and the Baltimore/Washington region. WN also has entered primary commercial airports in major U.S. metro areas that it previously stayed out of during the last 10 years, including ATL, BOS, CLT, CVG, MKE, MSP, LGA, EWR, and DCA.
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:59 pm

It would take 20 years, but DFW could meet AA's desires for a denser, more efficient terminal without wasting too much of the post-2000 improvements. Just:
* Terminal F--relocate Skylink to the roadway median, building 3 stations attached to 15-20 gate linear concourses perpendicular to the road (E/W). Connect the concourses to Terminal D with an underground walkway with provisions for a future APM. Each new concourse could function as a remote satellite of A,B,D for O/D purposes. Rebuild B garage if more parking needed.
* Terminal C--scrape everything about it (terminal, garages, hotel) and build a central terminal for AA that incorporates D as well. Make provisions for underground APM.
*Terminals A/B--after central AA terminal complete, move all non-AA carriers to A, building a separate FIS too. Use old AirTrain track for new underground APM.
* Terminal E--scrape all of it, bury International Parkway, scrape Skylink and complete the linear concourses as needed. Move Eagle from B to new linear E/F. Create crossfield taxiways surrounding central terminal.

Easy peasy. Preserves improvements to A/B for non-AA/OW carriers, incorporates D into new central terminal and milks most of the remaining useful life out of Skylink before replacing it with an underground APM. Biggest waste would be that Terminal E gets bulldozed less than halfway through its useful life.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:34 pm

jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
But most of the year the winds are from the south, so 18L isn't used that much - in the winter, maybe, but the rest of the year, not so much.

Normally planes from destinations east of Dallas use runways on the east side of the airport for landing, and planes coming from the west land on the runways on the west side of the airport. WN has more traffic coming in to Dallas from the east than the west.

So, when the wind is from the south planes land on 17R and 17C, which result in a 10 minutes taxi, or even worse, land on 17L which entails a 15 minute taxi time.

DFW makes no sense for a company that operates the way that WN does no quick turnarounds allowed.


WN has occasionally had to deal with longer taxi distances at a few of the U.S. airports that it currently operates out of, including ABQ, CVG, DEN, DTW, MCO, IAD, PHX, and STL. However, most of these airports have runways that are much closer to the WN gates. WN can deal with longer than normal taxi distances at DFW as WN does so at other airports currently served by WN, and WN can also take into account longer taxi times when scheduling flights.

A new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW (originally planned as Terminal 1W) would allow WN to easily taxi to Runway 17L for departures when winds are from the south since a new terminal in this location would be right next to the north end of Runway 17L. The short taxi distance to Runway 17L from a new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW would make it easier for WN to do quick turnarounds at DFW.



You have your runways mixed up.

A new terminal in the Express North Parking lot (was there yesterday), would be on the 18/36 runways, not 17/35s.

17L is the furthest runway from all terminals and rarely, if ever used for takeoffs. Planes land there and in order to get over to the Terminal B/D side of the complex involves a LONG taxi.
Whatever
 
osupoke07
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:42 pm

bob75013 wrote:
So, when the wind is from the south planes coming from east of DFW land on 17R and 17C, which result in a 10 minutes taxi, or even worse, land on 17L which entails a 15 minute taxi time.


With south winds, planes coming from the west primarily use 18R and 31R. Planes coming from the east primarily use 17L and 17C. 17R and 18L are used for departures and have far fewer arrivals.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 97.0403352

Look at the rubber. 18L looks to be used more often, but there's hardly any on 17R/35L.
MD82, MD83, MD88, B717, B732, B733, B735, B737, B738, B739, B752, B763, B77W, CR2, CR7, CR9, A320, A321
 
osupoke07
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:45 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
Okie wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
It is, indeed, utterly ironic, however, that O&D has become more difficult than connecting because one of rhe original selling points of the DFW terminal layout was the minimum of walking required to get to your gate after parking your car

Yes 40 years on after DFW being built, that dynamic has fallen to the wayside. MCI is in the same boat.
I will have to at least disagree on the Skylink in that it helps a lot as far as I am concerned.

Okie


I stated that the Skylink helps quite a bit.

Reading is fundamental.


Skylink only helps if you have no bag. If you have a checked bag, you still have to wait for it at your arrival terminal, then transfer to your parking terminal post security.
MD82, MD83, MD88, B717, B732, B733, B735, B737, B738, B739, B752, B763, B77W, CR2, CR7, CR9, A320, A321
 
jplatts
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:52 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
You have your runways mixed up.

A new terminal in the Express North Parking lot (was there yesterday), would be on the 18/36 runways, not 17/35s.

17L is the furthest runway from all terminals and rarely, if ever used for takeoffs. Planes land there and in order to get over to the Terminal B/D side of the complex involves a LONG taxi.


I meant to say the 18L and 18R runways at DFW instead of the 17L, 17C, and 17R runways, and thanks for catching my error. The point that I was trying to make is that a new terminal built in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW is right next to Runway 18L, which would allow WN to taxi right to Runway 18L when winds are out of the south.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:17 pm

jplatts wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
You have your runways mixed up.

A new terminal in the Express North Parking lot (was there yesterday), would be on the 18/36 runways, not 17/35s.

17L is the furthest runway from all terminals and rarely, if ever used for takeoffs. Planes land there and in order to get over to the Terminal B/D side of the complex involves a LONG taxi.


I meant to say the 18L and 18R runways at DFW instead of the 17L, 17C, and 17R runways, and thanks for catching my error. The point that I was trying to make is that a new terminal built in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW is right next to Runway 18L, which would allow WN to taxi right to Runway 18L when winds are out of the south.



First of all, pilots don't normally get to choose departure runway.. At DFW, If you're leaving to go west,your pilot will not be able to request departure on one of the east runways.

Second, as was the case with arriving aircraft, aircraft departing for points east (arriving from points east) use runways on the east side of the airport 17 a,b,c, while aircraft departing to points west (arriving from points west) use runways on the west side of the airport 18 r,l,c.It's done that way to eliminate to eliminate traffic from the west crossing into the pattern of aircraft from the east, and visa versa. Crosswind runways not comprehended in the analysis. .

When the wind is from the north, aircraft departing to the east will need to take a 10 15 minute taxi to get to 35 r,l,c,

As I said earlier, arriving aircraft from the east will land on 17 r,l,c and involve a min 10-15 minute taxi to your proposed terminal.

I've been on 30 minute taxis at DFW, and if your proposed terminal is built other terminals will also have been built, making the taxi times mentioned above small in comparison to what they would be.

IMO, the only way that WN ends up at DFW (and only in 2024 or later) is if WN wants to fly international from Dallas/Ft. Worth and company cannot find another way to do it better.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:04 pm

bob75013 wrote:
First of all, pilots don't normally get to choose departure runway.. At DFW, If you're leaving to go west,your pilot will not be able to request departure on one of the east runways.

Second, as was the case with arriving aircraft, aircraft departing for points east (arriving from points east) use runways on the east side of the airport 17 a,b,c, while aircraft departing to points west (arriving from points west) use runways on the west side of the airport 18 r,l,c.It's done that way to eliminate to eliminate traffic from the west crossing into the pattern of aircraft from the east, and visa versa. Crosswind runways not comprehended in the analysis. .

When the wind is from the north, aircraft departing to the east will need to take a 10 15 minute taxi to get to 35 r,l,c,

As I said earlier, arriving aircraft from the east will land on 17 r,l,c and involve a min 10-15 minute taxi to your proposed terminal.


I have been on American Eagle flights to DFW from the east that have landed on Runway 18L or 18R, but those flights were arriving at Terminal B on the west side of DFW.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:21 pm

jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
First of all, pilots don't normally get to choose departure runway.. At DFW, If you're leaving to go west,your pilot will not be able to request departure on one of the east runways.

Second, as was the case with arriving aircraft, aircraft departing for points east (arriving from points east) use runways on the east side of the airport 17 a,b,c, while aircraft departing to points west (arriving from points west) use runways on the west side of the airport 18 r,l,c.It's done that way to eliminate to eliminate traffic from the west crossing into the pattern of aircraft from the east, and visa versa. Crosswind runways not comprehended in the analysis. .

When the wind is from the north, aircraft departing to the east will need to take a 10 15 minute taxi to get to 35 r,l,c,

As I said earlier, arriving aircraft from the east will land on 17 r,l,c and involve a min 10-15 minute taxi to your proposed terminal.


I have been on American Eagle flights to DFW from the east that have landed on Runway 18L or 18R, but those flights were arriving at Terminal B on the west side of DFW.



Congratulations for experiencing the exception as opposed to the rule.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:41 pm

bob75013 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
Dear God.... Get Doug Parker away from DFW, ASAP!
And, we lived in Dallas for 4 years and loved using DFW (except for the drive out there).


LHR is essentially being rebuilt into a toaster rack design, so why not DFW?



The short answer --- billions of $$$$$$$$$ -- just after spending hundreds of millions of $$$$$$ on renweing the existing teminals and parking garages.


I understand, but this is Texas, isn't it? Houston would shrivel up with envy!
 
User avatar
zululima
Posts: 483
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:45 am

The problem with sometimes long taxi and ramp hold times has nothing to do with DFW, and everything to do with AA. Until a few years ago they had a perfectly good non-banked or rolling-bank departure schedule and movement congestion was much better than a decade ago. Of course, just like the unacceptable seat pitch they've gone to lately, they found a way to squeeze out another nickel per enplanement at the cost of overall passenger experience, and went with that, screwing everyone else at the airport simultaneously.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
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jmw99ttu
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:18 am

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:44 am

osupoke07 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
Okie wrote:
Yes 40 years on after DFW being built, that dynamic has fallen to the wayside. MCI is in the same boat.
I will have to at least disagree on the Skylink in that it helps a lot as far as I am concerned.

Okie


I stated that the Skylink helps quite a bit.

Reading is fundamental.


Skylink only helps if you have no bag. If you have a checked bag, you still have to wait for it at your arrival terminal, then transfer to your parking terminal post security.


When I check bags, I take skylink to the terminal where I’m parked, then drive my car to baggage claim and park in a 1 hour spot. Usually by the time I do that, my bag is waiting for me on the carousel.
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5540
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Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:21 am

jmw99ttu wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:

I stated that the Skylink helps quite a bit.

Reading is fundamental.


Skylink only helps if you have no bag. If you have a checked bag, you still have to wait for it at your arrival terminal, then transfer to your parking terminal post security.


When I check bags, I take skylink to the terminal where I’m parked, then drive my car to baggage claim and park in a 1 hour spot. Usually by the time I do that, my bag is waiting for me on the carousel.



You know..... that's probably the best idea I've heard all day.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:54 pm

justplanenutz wrote:
It would take 20 years, but DFW could meet AA's desires for a denser, more efficient terminal without wasting too much of the post-2000 improvements. Just:
* Terminal F--relocate Skylink to the roadway median, building 3 stations attached to 15-20 gate linear concourses perpendicular to the road (E/W). Connect the concourses to Terminal D with an underground walkway with provisions for a future APM. Each new concourse could function as a remote satellite of A,B,D for O/D purposes. Rebuild B garage if more parking needed.
* Terminal C--scrape everything about it (terminal, garages, hotel) and build a central terminal for AA that incorporates D as well. Make provisions for underground APM.
*Terminals A/B--after central AA terminal complete, move all non-AA carriers to A, building a separate FIS too. Use old AirTrain track for new underground APM.
* Terminal E--scrape all of it, bury International Parkway, scrape Skylink and complete the linear concourses as needed. Move Eagle from B to new linear E/F. Create crossfield taxiways surrounding central terminal.

Easy peasy. Preserves improvements to A/B for non-AA/OW carriers, incorporates D into new central terminal and milks most of the remaining useful life out of Skylink before replacing it with an underground APM. Biggest waste would be that Terminal E gets bulldozed less than halfway through its useful life.


Easy Peasy? You're looking at probably $10 billion in costs. No way that's going to go over with the airlines or the taxpayers.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2617
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:13 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
But most of the year the winds are from the south, so 18L isn't used that much - in the winter, maybe, but the rest of the year, not so much.

Normally planes from destinations east of Dallas use runways on the east side of the airport for landing, and planes coming from the west land on the runways on the west side of the airport. WN has more traffic coming in to Dallas from the east than the west.

So, when the wind is from the south planes land on 17R and 17C, which result in a 10 minutes taxi, or even worse, land on 17L which entails a 15 minute taxi time.

DFW makes no sense for a company that operates the way that WN does no quick turnarounds allowed.


WN has occasionally had to deal with longer taxi distances at a few of the U.S. airports that it currently operates out of, including ABQ, CVG, DEN, DTW, MCO, IAD, PHX, and STL. However, most of these airports have runways that are much closer to the WN gates. WN can deal with longer than normal taxi distances at DFW as WN does so at other airports currently served by WN, and WN can also take into account longer taxi times when scheduling flights.

A new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW (originally planned as Terminal 1W) would allow WN to easily taxi to Runway 17L for departures when winds are from the south since a new terminal in this location would be right next to the north end of Runway 17L. The short taxi distance to Runway 17L from a new terminal constructed in the current location of the Express North parking lot at DFW would make it easier for WN to do quick turnarounds at DFW.



You have your runways mixed up.

A new terminal in the Express North Parking lot (was there yesterday), would be on the 18/36 runways, not 17/35s.

17L is the furthest runway from all terminals and rarely, if ever used for takeoffs. Planes land there and in order to get over to the Terminal B/D side of the complex involves a
<edit-responded to wrong post>
Great Lakes, great life.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2617
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: Something is happening at the site of DFW Terminal F

Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:17 pm

justplanenutz wrote:
It would take 20 years, but DFW could meet AA's desires for a denser, more efficient terminal without wasting too much of the post-2000 improvements. Just:
* Terminal F--relocate Skylink to the roadway median, building 3 stations attached to 15-20 gate linear concourses perpendicular to the road (E/W). Connect the concourses to Terminal D with an underground walkway with provisions for a future APM. Each new concourse could function as a remote satellite of A,B,D for O/D purposes. Rebuild B garage if more parking needed.
* Terminal C--scrape everything about it (terminal, garages, hotel) and build a central terminal for AA that incorporates D as well. Make provisions for underground APM.
*Terminals A/B--after central AA terminal complete, move all non-AA carriers to A, building a separate FIS too. Use old AirTrain track for new underground APM.
* Terminal E--scrape all of it, bury International Parkway, scrape Skylink and complete the linear concourses as needed. Move Eagle from B to new linear E/F. Create crossfield taxiways surrounding central terminal.

Easy peasy. Preserves improvements to A/B for non-AA/OW carriers, incorporates D into new central terminal and milks most of the remaining useful life out of Skylink before replacing it with an underground APM. Biggest waste would be that Terminal E gets bulldozed less than halfway through its useful life.


....but why reinvent the wheel when the current setup is so efficient (AA scheduling notwithstanding)?
Great Lakes, great life.

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