jumbojet
Posts: 2957
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:11 am

77H wrote:
[Give me a break Jumbo. You take sides instantly when its anyone but DL and there is plenty of evidence on numerous threads to show this.


nonsense! ual763 started a thread not to long ago that attacked a certain UA FA blogger. After doing research and reading as much as I could about the matter, I sided with the UA FA blogger.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:13 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
[UA on the attack.
DL on the defense.
Sky Waitress

You three deserve each other.


As I mentioned above, a recent negative thread about UA found me taking the side of United so sorry, your comment holds absolutely no water.

And, I am not on the defense of Delta, I am merely giving them the benefit of the doubt until further evidence comes out that exonerates the FA or substantiates the passengers complaint.
 
travelsonic
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:59 am

Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:14 am

eugdjinn wrote:
Hence, the rule. And yes, Super80fan, et al. It is FEDERAL LAW, your phone should be in Airplane mode or off as of the moment the aircraft door is closed. Not, the fourth time we ask, not the moment we tap you on the shoulder as you text, and not as you keep talking.


Any indication that it was multiple times, or whatnot in the story? If not, this might be kind of calling the kettle black when if in reference to the OP.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:25 am

And I'll tell you all something else, some airlines (Delta - cough, cough) have better reputations than others (United - AA).. Take it for what you will, but its the truth.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:07 am

eugdjinn wrote:
Second: As a FA, we announce before we close the door that this is what you need to do. We repeat it after or as we close the door. So, if that's the FAA's two, what does that make the next two times we have to say it? On a Delta Connection flight, I often had to say it every two rows. Why? Because I had passengers with Listening Disabilities who were either texting, talking, snapchatting, or faceplanting actively on their phones. Funny thing, your cell carrier shows in the upper left corner if you aren't in airplane mode. Even if you aren't obviously texting, it gives you away. And while we are looking to see if your seatbelt is fastened, we look at that too.


I don't know if you work for a carrier with gate to gate WiFi or not, but if you do, remember that some (most?) passengers can text in Airplane Mode if connected to the WiFi. Certainly anyone with an Apple device can.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
eugdjinn
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:55 am

Cubsrule wrote:
I don't know if you work for a carrier with gate to gate WiFi or not, but if you do, remember that some (most?) passengers can text in Airplane Mode if connected to the WiFi. Certainly anyone with an Apple device can.


I can see your point, but I did note what I look for in that upper left corner. And I have no problem apologizing when someone shows me that they are in compliance, and thanking them for doing so. But I also regularly have people say, "It is." when that corner is proudly proclaiming AT&T LTE and I can see it is not. So, you tell me...

On the planes I work, you have no WiFi until we reach 10,000 feet. Since that's the same critical phase of flight in which we are most likely to have an issue and need your full attention, I'm just fine with that. It's also the period during which your laptop needs to stay stowed, um, also per the FARs.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:10 am

As long as she's a consistent enforcer, so never leaves her own phone on in similar situations. And should fellow crew members leave on or use their phones, she throws them off as well.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:21 am

eugdjinn wrote:
On the planes I work, you have no WiFi until we reach 10,000 feet. Since that's the same critical phase of flight in which we are most likely to have an issue and need your full attention, I'm just fine with that. It's also the period during which your laptop needs to stay stowed, um, also per the FARs.


Distraction is an issue below 10,000 feet, I think. My “laptop” is a Surface Pro, which is an FAR “small electronic,” so I can get essentially fully immersed in work or a movie or something else on the ground. I’m not sure that’s good from a human factors perspective, but it does demonstrate the danger of blind reliance on the FARs for safety.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
jagraham
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:22 am

Without taking a position on the way this situation was handled, cockpit instruments and some sensors get interfered with by "incidental" interference. Rather than a radio picking up a frequency and getting jammed, circuits which are not intended for radio use may still pick up radio signals; and sometimes the radio signal may generate voltages and/or currents that can interfere with the normal function of the circuit in question. In some cases, the voltages and/or currents which cause problems with a circuit can be quite small.

On the other hand, most cellular frequencies are near the 2.4 GHz WiFi band. Which is allowed in flight. And is as powerful as the cellular signal. So if cellular causes a problem, WiFi should cause a similar problem . . .
 
StuckInCA
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:05 am

Redwood839 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
Redwood839 wrote:
Man, bad situation which could've been 100% avoided and money saved for Delta.

But the USA publication with "black flyer" "latina", wtf? Who cares what they were? Everything is racism now.


Has it occurred to you that maybe it was? Funny thing about rules - they are often enforced in arbitrary ways. That's one of the issues POC raise all the time.


and maybe it wasn't? That's exactly what I just said, everyone assumes it's racism now. Do you hear anything in the audio that points to her being racist or having an impulse on it? Hell, I'm latino, and I wouldn't want to be referenced as a latino because of my ethnicity on an article. Male passenger is 100% fine.


Well, what's the point of being identified as a male passenger? Why are you OK with that?
 
goosebayguy
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:53 am

The passenger has said that she was picked on due to her being black. She herself has bought racism into the discussion. It's difficult to understand why rules which apply to everyone are racist.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:40 am

On my JFK-ATH flight yesterday, the FA announced four times they couldn’t leave the gate until all the phones were on airplane mode. In all my Delta flying I have never heard the airplane mode thing so adamantly. I pretty much surf on my phone right up until we are about to take off. FAs see me and haven’t said anything for years. Seems like something changed...Obviously I put my phone on airplane mode before the plane left the gate
 
stratclub
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:04 am

Tugger wrote:
By the way. I feel like I am probably coming across as some rabid jerk who expects crew to grovel before me and that crew are always power hungry and wrong, and that the FA in this situation is absolutely wrong and at fault, etc. However that is not true or accurate. I am going by what I saw in the video and what was reported (in particular the additional passengers being kicked off and not so much the woman who started it all) which for basically anyone here does not give enough information for a well informed opinion on this exact situation.

For the sake of this discussion though and what I saw/read, I am thinking more could have and should have been done to deescalate the situation. For that position I am responding to people that to me are going overboard the other way with absolutes and stating what I feel are things along the lines of "you don't follow instructions immediately your are wrong and a danger to the flight..." etc.

I know and love many people in the airline industry and have traveled and flown enough to know they are wonderful and do a tough job and deal with assholes all day long sometimes. But as with any business not all employees are great and I make no allusion that they are all great. Some can do better and some need to do better. Many love their job and some don't. So I am trying to be realistic that often it can be the passenger and sometimes the crew member but always the crew member is the trained professional so I have higher expectations for them.

I hope I am getting across what I am meaning to say. I know some will ignore it but I am trying. Thanks,

Tugg

There is a lot of could of should of would of in your post and no, I will not ignore you opinion and will comment on it. This isn't a matter that will be ruled upon by the court of Facebook. This is a matter that is bound by FAA regulations and if you interfere with a flight crews directions in regard to FAA mandated processes and if you do not comply with a F/A's instructions in regards to mandated safety procedures, you can be fined up to $25,000 and face jail time.

Why is that so hard to understand? I think I'm going to try to explain this to my cat. I'm pretty sure she will understand the situation a lot better than a lot of the post I have read here.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:44 pm

77H wrote:
From what I've read, the passenger in question complied with the FAs direction but did question the need for the FA to stand over her while she did it which I personally feel is a valid question. I've had regional jet FAs come by and ask me to turn off my phone. I gave verbal affirmation and they moved on. I would find it a little belittling for them to stand over me while I did it.

All this happened after the two standard cabin announcements. You'd think the pax would feel a bit of guilt for blowing those off and not push the limits, but apparently this one chose otherwise. Remember, the crew member said "I heard what you said" in the video, which makes me think the pax is leaving something out of her version of the story.
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travelsonic
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
Remember, the crew member said "I heard what you said" in the video, which makes me think the pax is leaving something out of her version of the story.


In of itself, I am not too sure, I mean, it seems to me like that could be any number of things, including reacting to a snarky remark.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:46 pm

Usually there are 2 sides these stories. My guess is the passenger was pushing the limits and the FA was lacking in customer skills. Combine the two and you get these situations from time to time.


:checkmark:

My issue is not with the original person being booted off. We don't know precisely what happened before the cell phone video started. Perhaps she deserved to be deplaned, perhaps she didn't. My issue is with the passengers who defended said original passenger being deplaned. I've read nothing that indicates that they were obnoxious or abusive to the flight attendant, let alone dangers to aviation. Several clearly innocent travelers were inconvenienced due to what appears to be an overreaction on the part of the flight attendant and the captain. Seriously, if the cabin crew wants one passenger deplaned, then I could see where the captain would support that request. However, when the cabin crew wants six or seven deplaned, that should have been a light bulb moment for the captain that either a riot was breaking out behind him, or a flight attendant was making very poor decisions.

I also agree with prior posters who say that Delta can't have it both ways. If the ticket says Delta and they say, "Thank you for flying Delta," then Delta does bear some accountability here. Its almost akin to a franchise agreement. Your local McDonald's technically isn't a McDonald's; they're a private business paying franchise fees to use McDonald's name, logo, recipes, etc., and call themselves "McDonald's." Yes, I know there are some niceties and vagaries that some would disagree with me on, but that's at least roughly correct. And, if a franchisee gets into trouble or commits some customer relations sin, who gets involved? Yes, McDonald's corporate because they don't want a franchisee wrecking the franchisor's reputation. It should be the same way for airlines. The large legacy carriers need to stop saying it wasn't them. Maybe technically and legally it wasn't, but if a regional is contractually representing a legacy carrier, using their name, their booking services, with their name painted on the sides of the aircraft, etc., then the legacy carrier needs to possess more control and authority over incidents like these.
 
kalvado
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:57 pm

jagraham wrote:
On the other hand, most cellular frequencies are near the 2.4 GHz WiFi band. Which is allowed in flight. And is as powerful as the cellular signal. So if cellular causes a problem, WiFi should cause a similar problem . . .

a. No. 450, 700, 850, 1800, 1900 - not exactly close to 2400
b. Pulsed transmission up to 2 W for GSM vs more level, 100 mW at most, wifi.
 
Heinkel
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:55 pm

jumbojet wrote:
There is a reason why cops where body cameras. Maybe its time for FA's to start wearing them to. I bet you would see a lot of passengers wiith changed attitudes.


Cops are often dealing with criminals and their primary task is to enforce the law. They don't have customers. FAs have other tasks. May be a first step could be, that (some) FAs don't treat the pax as potential criminals. The pax is not the enemy. They are customers and they want to be treated decently. Not like in a boot camp. Obey the rules and shut up...

If mobile phones not in flight mode are such a risk for modern aviation, why there is not a single documented case (AFAIK), that a mobile phone (not in flight mode) has done any harm to an airliner?

The good news for us here in Europe is, that most of these problems with FAs on the power trip occur in the USA.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I also agree with prior posters who say that Delta can't have it both ways. If the ticket says Delta and they say, "Thank you for flying Delta," then Delta does bear some accountability here.


It's not some accountability, it's 100%. The passenger never gave Skywest a dime. It's much like hiring a general contractor and giving him $500,000 to build a house. If he uses some of that money to hire a plumber who installs pipes that leak, he cannot tell you the plumber did it and walk away.

I expect we will see more and more issues like this as Delta continues on the path to becoming a virtual airline. I was reminded of this today when I received email spam from Delta with a link to a page that touted their global service. The top of the page was covered with Delta's logo and colors, followed by links to buy low fare tickets to Latin America. And way at the bottom of the page, in fine print, was this list of companies for Delta to blame:

A portion of travel for some itineraries may be on : Compass Airlines, Endeavor Air, Inc. ExpressJet Airlines, Inc., GoJet Airlines, Republic Airline, SkyWest, Aeroflot, Aeromexico, Air Europa, Air France, Airlinair, Air One, Air One City Liner, Alitalia, BritAir, China Airlines, China Eastern, China Southern, CSA Czech Airlines, KLM, Korean Airlines, Aerolíneas Argentinas; Austral Lineas Aereas dba Aerolíneas Argentinas, Aerolitoral dba Aeromexico Connect, Air One CityLiner dba Alitalia, CAIone Alitalia Express dba Alitalia, CAI Second, Aeromar, Brit Air dba Air France, Carpatair dba Alitalia, City Jet dba Air France, GOL Airlines, Hawaiian Airlines, Jet Airways, KLM CityHopper, Olympic Air, Hop! dba Air France, Privilege Style, Regional CAE dba Air France, Seaborne Airlines, Shanghai Airlines, SwiftAir, Transavia Airlines, Virgin Atlantic International, Aer Lingus dba Virgin Atlantic Little Red, Virgin Australia International, Virgin Australia Limited NZ dba Virgin Australia, VLM Airlines, WestJet, and WestJet Encore.
 
afgeneral
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:31 pm

richiemo wrote:
Sorry, but I support the FA here. I am so sick of sitting on airplanes and watching completely ignore FA announcements. People don't put there seats and tray tables up when asked. They stay on their phones. They get out of their seats when the seat belt sign is on. The list is endless. Granted I wasn't there, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that these passengers were asked multiple times. And even if it was once, that should be enough. FAs are human and they must grow weary of people ignoring instructions all due to their self-indulgence. It's a huge problem in our society, complete lack of respect for rules, guidelines etc.


Wow are you really trying to dehumanize the passengers and paint the FA into a victim? Passengers are not human or what? Is it only FAs that are human?

Passengers are off from work during flights, and many of them are under a lot of stress from having to deal with the airport and flying itself because they are not frequent fliers. FAs on the other hand are paid to be there so they have to keep reminding passenger about seat belts, mobiles EVERY TIME. They also have to be nice and considerate EVERY TIME. If they have to ask a 2nd time, it's their job to do so! If they can't handle this they should not be FAs.
 
mcdu
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:47 pm

That DL FA will be perfect for the state airline of the republic of Gilead....she’s got the tone and actions down perfect.
 
jagraham
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:23 pm

kalvado wrote:
jagraham wrote:
On the other hand, most cellular frequencies are near the 2.4 GHz WiFi band. Which is allowed in flight. And is as powerful as the cellular signal. So if cellular causes a problem, WiFi should cause a similar problem . . .

a. No. 450, 700, 850, 1800, 1900 - not exactly close to 2400
b. Pulsed transmission up to 2 W for GSM vs more level, 100 mW at most, wifi.



In the US, all cellular handhelds are limited to 0.5 W. As is WiFi. If WiFi is less, that is the manufacturers' choice.


The US does not use 450 for cellular. Only trunked radio. A portion of that band was taken from the military, but has not been auctioned off yet.

700 is primarily used by Verizon, for 3 years. Not all Verizon phones use 700 yet

850 is the original cellular band. Limited to 3G except for some AT&T areas.

Most cellular is in 1800, 1900, and 2100 MHz frequencies. Simply because there is much more bandwidth. Frequencies below 1000 MHz are not available in more than 30 MHz chunks to cellular.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:22 am

After viewing the video, it sounds like the SkyWest FA needs to be disciplined. Some of those flight attendants' power-trips really have gone to their heads. Maybe this one needs to keep her hormonal issues to herself. Now that I've said that, I'll probably be thrown onto the no-fly list.
 
Redwood839
Posts: 228
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:23 pm

StuckInCA wrote:
Redwood839 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:

Has it occurred to you that maybe it was? Funny thing about rules - they are often enforced in arbitrary ways. That's one of the issues POC raise all the time.


and maybe it wasn't? That's exactly what I just said, everyone assumes it's racism now. Do you hear anything in the audio that points to her being racist or having an impulse on it? Hell, I'm latino, and I wouldn't want to be referenced as a latino because of my ethnicity on an article. Male passenger is 100% fine.


Well, what's the point of being identified as a male passenger? Why are you OK with that?


Because I don't need to be addressed by the color of my skin or ethnicity and because I'm a male and 100% sure of my gender?. We're not in 1900s where that was still in place. If you're ok with being addressed by the color of your skin or your ethnic background directly, knock yourself out.

Why would USA Today have the need to differentiate between a black and a latino passenger?
 
Kestrel333
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:51 pm

Heinkel wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
There is a reason why cops where body cameras. Maybe its time for FA's to start wearing them to. I bet you would see a lot of passengers wiith changed attitudes.


Cops are often dealing with criminals and their primary task is to enforce the law. They don't have customers.


Body cameras are great tools for people other than police officers. In the U.K. Passenger Service Agents on London’s Docklands Light Railway now where them.

I’d also suggest that police do have customers. Their customers are members of the public who they happen to come across. They won’t always be criminals. In the U.K. police officers have seen complaints drop off by a massive degree since body worn video was rolled out.

Seems to me some type of body worn camera would be useful for FAs.
 
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mbmbos
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:00 pm

Redwood839 wrote:
StuckInCA wrote:
Redwood839 wrote:

and maybe it wasn't? That's exactly what I just said, everyone assumes it's racism now. Do you hear anything in the audio that points to her being racist or having an impulse on it? Hell, I'm latino, and I wouldn't want to be referenced as a latino because of my ethnicity on an article. Male passenger is 100% fine.


Well, what's the point of being identified as a male passenger? Why are you OK with that?


Because I don't need to be addressed by the color of my skin or ethnicity and because I'm a male and 100% sure of my gender?. We're not in 1900s where that was still in place. If you're ok with being addressed by the color of your skin or your ethnic background directly, knock yourself out.

Why would USA Today have the need to differentiate between a black and a latino passenger?


So, you're going to pretend racism doesn't exist. Got it.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
toobz
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:46 pm

You are glad it was mentioned that the flier was black...? I can’t take anything you say seriously after that. You are worst than a CNN report for real man. Go hit the streets in protest if you aren’t yet. No evidence of the FA being racist. You are feening on facts that are not evident.
 
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OA412
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Re: Delta ejects passengers over airplane mode spat

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:37 pm

This thread has derailed into a political discussion and personal attacks. Thread locked.
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