wnflyguy wrote:

fuel prices have tripled.

Flyguy

We have been paying WAY over market value for fuel for many years. Think poorly placed fuel hedges.

asteriskceo wrote:

PDX88 wrote:

777PHX wrote:

The difference is, HA uses them for a very specific capability that AT didn't.

The 737 is incapable of doing what the 717 does in Hawaii?

Serious question, I'm not sure what makes the 717 so special for those routes.

The engines

To run it the exact same way Hawaiian does yes could be an issue. But if you run a plane SMF-OGG-HNL-SAN. Whereas to spread out the interisland flying I think it would lessen the issue. WN makes 35 min turns and some 30 or 25s still. Albeit rare.

ADrum23 wrote:

Why is this even a thread? HA doesn’t even have 25 717’s and freezing hiring can have many different meanings. Maybe revenue is down because of the April accident?

The volcanoe nore likely.

With regards to Southwest ceasing hiring - there are currently 29 positions (some of which they are searching for more than one person) listed on Southwest.com. Also, didn't Southwest do an open calling for flight attendants a few weeks ago?

RickNRoll wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Why is this even a thread? HA doesn’t even have 25 717’s and freezing hiring can have many different meanings. Maybe revenue is down because of the April accident?

The volcanoe nore likely.

WN doesnt fly to HI yet so the Volcano has nothing to do with this.

777PHX wrote:

The story goes that the 717 and its engines are the only engines capable of dissipating enough heat during the infamously short turnarounds HA is known for. No other jet aircraft can do it because the short turnarounds drastically decrease engine life.

B732s and DC-9s could do the short turns, but now are extinct types. And... the ability of the 712 with BR715 engines to do short turns all day long is not a "story", it's real. Any modern turbofan engine can do 2 or 3 short turns... but only the BR715 (and I presume the BR725, but that is a bizjet engine) can do short turns all day long, as in up to 17 a day.

dampfnudel wrote:

Can you imagine the 787-9 in WN colors? If this were to happen and that’s a big ‘if’, I can see WN eventually getting rid of the Airbus fleet and ordering more 787-9s. It’s also possible they would retain the Hawaiian branding for marketing purposes so we probably wouldn’t see the 787-9 in WN colors.

Better yet, An A330 in WN colors in Japan or Australia!

and hub them at EXE.

777PHX wrote:

The story goes that the 717 and its engines are the only engines capable of dissipating enough heat during the infamously short turnarounds HA is known for. No other jet aircraft can do it because the short turnarounds drastically decrease engine life.

Out of interest, is there no easy, cost effective way of "helping" CFM56s (or any other turbofan) to dissipate heat? Just a fan in front blowing rearwards would be a tremendous help. In Formula 1 we see what are effectively modified leaf blowers and occasionally dry ice used to cool engines. Even without the dry ice a very low tech fan can remove an awful lot of heat.

ctrabs0114 wrote:

asteriskceo wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

The OP is drawing a wild conclusion from two separate stories. The first WN is freezing hiring because of planned capapcity cuts not a buyout of HA. Rising oil and falling RASM will do that. The second is a baseles rumor that Delta is getting 25 more 717s. So the OP put both unrelated stories together and wildly came up with WN buying HA.

To correct you: I am not drawing the conclusion. Just repeating what others have been saying.

No offense, but regardless of what your 'sources' are, this is one of the stupidest 'rumors' I've seen on this board. Especially for the reasons other posters have stated in debunking your original post.

Mods: please lock this thread, because there is, in my personal opinion, zero credibility to the original post.

Zero credibility because it was stated as - wait for it - a rumor. Your 'opinion' carries exactly as much weight as this rumor.

And quite frankly a rumor that has surfaced many times over the years - within the ranks of both employee groups. This isn't new.

I can say that the image from the memo shown earlier is legitimate and recent.

asteriskceo wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

If the OP can't name a source, the only place the rumor exists is in their head. So many useless conversations started just for the purpose of starting debates.

I actually don’t think it is very likely. And I’m just repeating what everyone is talking about at Southwest today. If you don’t like a post on here, you are more than welcome to scroll on by without being rude.

I see others have called you out on this, yet I am the only one that's rude. These rumor topics have gotten out of hand because most all are just that, rumore. If you are offended by my reply, that's none of my business.

I call BS-no way southwest will/would acquire Hawaiian.

And by the way, frank Lorenzo is restarting Texas air.

And the source of the original thread is probably fake news CNN.

777PHX wrote:

I'm not buying it. Hawaiian doesn't have any value to WN and their business model is so completely different than WN's, I don't see it happening. I'd take that 717 rumor with a grain of salt too, front line employees, including pilots, are the last to know anything about anything. And at any rate, if WN was acquiring HA, getting rid of the 717s makes no sense.

The value of Hawaiian is that it generates free cash flow. WN doesn't need to integrate Hawaiian's operations to financially benefit from acquiring Hawaiian. They could leave it a wholly-owned subsidiary. If you think that's crazy, let's recall that mid-2000s WN was described often described as a hedge fund that also operated an airline.

Seems unlikely to me. But crow is served frequently in these forums.

mwmav8r01 wrote:

asteriskceo wrote:

PDX88 wrote:

The 737 is incapable of doing what the 717 does in Hawaii?

Serious question, I'm not sure what makes the 717 so special for those routes.

The engines

To run it the exact same way Hawaiian does yes could be an issue. But if you run a plane SMF-OGG-HNL-SAN. Whereas to spread out the interisland flying I think it would lessen the issue. WN makes 35 min turns and some 30 or 25s still. Albeit rare.

except that doesn't come close to achieving the inter-island flight frequency currently provided, or expected by the local populace.
Today alone, HA will run OGG to HNL 29 times. 29. yikes.
Hilo (ITO), a non-tourist market, will have 15 departures to HNL; how ya gonna incorporate that into mainland routing? That's just to point out that as the "public utility" that HA is, maintaining the lifestyle and commerce of a US state in the middle of the Pacific is a big deal.

could WN massively change/reduce the island routes? sure. I can confidently predict that would spur the immediate attention of 2 US Senators and 2 US Congresspersons, who could make life very difficult for WN.

all that being said, I don't think this is the reason why a WN/HA acquisition/merger/whatever couldn't happen. maybe it can - but for now, WN would realistically need to retain the 717's and a dedicated island fleet (and pilot base).

personally, as someone who has taken their share of inter-island flights, I have to wonder if eventually, props will again make more sense (yes, I'm aware those need to cool as well).

mwmav8r01 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Has anyone proved that it's possible to operate 737 NG or MAX between the islands with short turnaround times?

Aloha? They flew 737-700s.

Only on flights to the mainland. The engines do not have time to cool enough due to heat/humidity combined with not going to full altitude long enough to cool. Unlike SW interisland is 15 min average flight. They hit around 22000 ft and go from climb to decent. the CFM cools down from T-O climb out once at altitude.

FlyHappy wrote:

mwmav8r01 wrote:

asteriskceo wrote:

The engines

To run it the exact same way Hawaiian does yes could be an issue. But if you run a plane SMF-OGG-HNL-SAN. Whereas to spread out the interisland flying I think it would lessen the issue. WN makes 35 min turns and some 30 or 25s still. Albeit rare.

except that doesn't come close to achieving the inter-island flight frequency currently provided, or expected by the local populace.
Today alone, HA will run OGG to HNL 29 times. 29. yikes.
Hilo (ITO), a non-tourist market, will have 15 departures to HNL; how ya gonna incorporate that into mainland routing? That's just to point out that as the "public utility" that HA is, maintaining the lifestyle and commerce of a US state in the middle of the Pacific is a big deal.

could WN massively change/reduce the island routes? sure. I can confidently predict that would spur the immediate attention of 2 US Senators and 2 US Congresspersons, who could make life very difficult for WN.

all that being said, I don't think this is the reason why a WN/HA acquisition/merger/whatever couldn't happen. maybe it can - but for now, WN would realistically need to retain the 717's and a dedicated island fleet (and pilot base).

personally, as someone who has taken their share of inter-island flights, I have to wonder if eventually, props will again make more sense (yes, I'm aware those need to cool as well).

AS may be interested in Hawaiian, and their experience operating in a way as a utility up in Alaska might make them a better fit to take on Hawaiian. But at the moment they are too pre occupied integrating Virgin America.

ADrum23 wrote:

Why is this even a thread? HA doesn’t even have 25 717’s and freezing hiring can have many different meanings. Maybe revenue is down because of the April accident?

What April Accident. Never heard any HA accident.

PDX88 wrote:

777PHX wrote:

PDX88 wrote:

Yet that's exactly what happened when they acquired AirTran. Although there are many other reasons why a WN/HA pairing will never ever happen.

The difference is, HA uses them for a very specific capability that AT didn't.

The 737 is incapable of doing what the 717 does in Hawaii?

Serious question, I'm not sure what makes the 717 so special for those routes.

The short flights can be 10-15 min in air do not allow enough time for the engine to cool for fast turn arounds on 737/A320/Ejet series planes due to temp/humidity and not getting to altitude to cool after climb out. they average 22000 ft max.

If the DOJ would allow it I think AA/UA/DL would snap them up very quickly. All of that Asia/South Pacific flying would fit in very well with the JV's that the US3 have. Not to mention reducing the number of competitors a bit on US-Hawaii routes.

wjcandee wrote:

Sigh:

The turnaround time issue is affected by the low altitude and short flight segments as well as the short time on the ground.

The BR715 isn't the only engine that can handle this service. But the CFM plainly cannot.

HA used to use MD80s in this service as well as DC9s. It will be an interesting question as to whether the GTF and the C-Series could pull this duty. The 717s will be around for a while, so by then perhaps there will be an appropriate aircraft for the duty.

sincere question: what modern engine aside from BR715 can handle this service? specifically, what economically viable airframe/engine combo could handle the HI inter-island duty today? cuz I don't know the answer to that.

didn't Qatar refuse delivery of their GTF neo's for this cool down/turn time issue? Isn't this a real thing, for an operator like HI ? (I know Qatar is a problem child, and they probably just wanted to dump, but the issue is real)

my low-tech impression is that modern engine design emphasis on fuel efficiency magnifies this low altitude/cooling issue. if this is correct, it seems that there is little likelihood that any new designs would improve on this problem, given the small numbers of engines this niche requires.

I think it has to do more with the short flight than Turnaround. The heat from the takeoff and climb does not cool down enough before the plane is on the ground. Then it sits there and cooks. So have I read in the past.

asteriskceo wrote:

Acey559 wrote:

Interesting because I just received an email on Tuesday stating the WN app window is open again until early July.

Thanks. Guess maybe communication wasn’t at its best before the email went out.

boeing808 wrote:

I call BS-no way southwest will/would acquire Hawaiian.

And by the way, frank Lorenzo is restarting Texas air.

And the source of the original thread is probably fake news CNN.

Did you read the description of sources, regardless of accuracy?

All of the DC-9 and MD80 series used the P&W JT8D. (many subtypes, but all were JT8D). The MD-90s switched to the International Aero Engines V2500, which could not do short turns needed in Hawaii and was not operated by HA.

rbavfan wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Why is this even a thread? HA doesn’t even have 25 717’s and freezing hiring can have many different meanings. Maybe revenue is down because of the April accident?

What April Accident. Never heard any HA accident.

Referring to WN freezing hiring, and to WN fatality incident.

rbavfan wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Why is this even a thread? HA doesn’t even have 25 717’s and freezing hiring can have many different meanings. Maybe revenue is down because of the April accident?

What April Accident. Never heard any HA accident.

I was talking about WN 1380 in April, maybe that is a reason they are freezing hiring because revenue is down from that incident?

GSPSPOT wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Perhaps they might work together in an alliance and code share to feed each other's pax.

<<THIS>>

I’m trying to imagine WN unions going along with anything short of full integration in a merger, and probably no codeshare at all.

Rumor:
JetBlue to merge with Southwest
JetBlue to merge with United
JetBlue to merge with Alaska
JetBlue to merge with Hawaiian
Hawaiian to merge with Alaska
Alaska to merge with Delta
Alaska to merge with Southwest
Spirit to merge with Frontier
Frontier to merge with Allegiant
Frontier to merge with JetBlue

Did I cover it all?

HA codeshares freely. WN doesn't. I don't see that changing.

asteriskceo wrote:

Rumors swirling again that Southwest is looking to merge or acquire Hawaiian Airlines as the company has announced internally that they are ceasing all hiring effective immediately.

Rumors on Delta Airline pilot forums that Delta will be securing approx 25 717’s from another carrier.

Thoughts?

Rumors swirling WHERE exactly?

There are no such rumors about the 717s on the DL pilot boards on Airline Pilot Central or the MEC boards.

mwmav8r01 wrote:

asteriskceo wrote:

PDX88 wrote:

The 737 is incapable of doing what the 717 does in Hawaii?

Serious question, I'm not sure what makes the 717 so special for those routes.

The engines

To run it the exact same way Hawaiian does yes could be an issue. But if you run a plane SMF-OGG-HNL-SAN. Whereas to spread out the interisland flying I think it would lessen the issue. WN makes 35 min turns and some 30 or 25s still. Albeit rare.

SW makes 35 min turns on flights that last an average of around an hour all day long. Hawaiian make 15 min turns on flights that last 15-20 minutes or so 11+ times a day. Big difference. That max flying at cruise altitude for longer allows the engine to cool down after the climb. Aloha learned the CFM can not cool fast enough at those rates.

barney captain wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

asteriskceo wrote:

To correct you: I am not drawing the conclusion. Just repeating what others have been saying.

No offense, but regardless of what your 'sources' are, this is one of the stupidest 'rumors' I've seen on this board. Especially for the reasons other posters have stated in debunking your original post.

Mods: please lock this thread, because there is, in my personal opinion, zero credibility to the original post.

Zero credibility because it was stated as - wait for it - a rumor. Your 'opinion' carries exactly as much weight as this rumor.

And quite frankly a rumor that has surfaced many times over the years - within the ranks of both employee groups. This isn't new.

I can say that the image from the memo shown earlier is legitimate and recent.

It was originally "NOT" stated as a rumor. read the early post.

rbavfan wrote:

barney captain wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

No offense, but regardless of what your 'sources' are, this is one of the stupidest 'rumors' I've seen on this board. Especially for the reasons other posters have stated in debunking your original post.

Mods: please lock this thread, because there is, in my personal opinion, zero credibility to the original post.

Zero credibility because it was stated as - wait for it - a rumor. Your 'opinion' carries exactly as much weight as this rumor.

And quite frankly a rumor that has surfaced many times over the years - within the ranks of both employee groups. This isn't new.

I can say that the image from the memo shown earlier is legitimate and recent.

It was originally "NOT" stated as a rumor. read the early post.

Actually, it was literally stated as a rumor from the very beginning.

asteriskceo wrote:

rbavfan wrote:

barney captain wrote:

Zero credibility because it was stated as - wait for it - a rumor. Your 'opinion' carries exactly as much weight as this rumor.

And quite frankly a rumor that has surfaced many times over the years - within the ranks of both employee groups. This isn't new.

I can say that the image from the memo shown earlier is legitimate and recent.

It was originally "NOT" stated as a rumor. read the early post.

Actually, it was literally stated as a rumor from the very beginning.

And again, a rumor that has a long history. Will it happen? Beats me. But I can tell you it has been ongoing for many years.

Only EK could afford to buy HA. HA probably has a global brand latency (MBA speak), and therefore a brand valuation, in the same league as BA, AA, UA, KL, DL, etc., and higher than EK, EY, QR, or TK. In a global survey, WN is beyond the pale... it's domestic. If anyone ponies up $100K, I would be happy to conduct a 10,000 sample survey.

WPvsMW wrote:

HA probably has a global brand latency (MBA speak), and therefore a brand valuation, in the same league as BA, AA, UA, KL, DL, etc., and higher than EK, EY, QR, or TK. In a global survey, WN is beyond the pale... it's domestic.

Source?

WPvsMW wrote:

WN is beyond the pale... it's domestic.

It is?


See where we fly.

Aruba
Belize
Cabo San Lucas/Los Cabos
Cancun
Grand Cayman
Havana
Liberia, Costa Rica
Mexico City
Montego Bay
Nassau, Bahamas
Puerto Vallarta
Punta Cana
San Jose, Costa Rica
Turks and Caicos

I just can't take the bickering on here anymore. Everybody take it easy!

MKIAZ wrote:

If the DOJ would allow it I think AA/UA/DL would snap them up very quickly. All of that Asia/South Pacific flying would fit in very well with the JV's that the US3 have. Not to mention reducing the number of competitors a bit on US-Hawaii routes.

AA/DL/UA could readily duplicate the HNL-Asia/Australia/NZ flying and avoid the hassles of integration. Widebody counts: HA, 31; DL, 150; AA, 155; UA, 179. HNL has zero (and I mean zero) value as a US49 to Asia hub. It's not distance-efficient. Premium travelers won't want to break their journey (and their sleep) half way.

Fleet commonality differences aside, what value does HAL bring to LUV (aside from a very attractive market cap of 1.825B for HAL)? Keep in mind WN announced on a fall Monday in 2010 its intent to acquire AirTran Airways for US $1.4B. Granted, the airline industry was in a much different shape at that time. The US economy was sluggish, as was the airline sector. Other majors had just completed or were digesting their own mergers/acquisitions (Delta & Northwest, American & US Airways, United & Continental). Fast-forward to today, and we have 3 large legacy carriers- of which Delta is the clear leader in financial performance and customer satisfaction (of the “Big 3”). “Little ‘ol Southwest” announced its intent to serve Hawaii, Alaska, Canada, Mexico/Latin America, and the Caribbean in an issue of their then known “Spirit Magazine” in early 2011. It took 6 years before they formally announced actual intent to pursue flights to Hawaii (undergoing ETOPS certification, etc.). Since that time, Hawaiian Airlines has started taking delivery of their first narrow-body transpacific aircraft (in recent years- not to forget about their previous DC-8 operation) to respond to increasing competition on non-HNL routes to the mainland (aka Alaska, as well as future WN service). There’s no doubt that WN will steal some traffic away from Alaska and Hawaiian as they (WN) are the largest carrier of domestic local O&D passengers in California. With that said, Hawaiian is a niche carrier and with what’s visible from their fleet plan and past route network additions, their growth is quite limited unless they expand point-to-point services OUTSIDE of Hawaii. Their future growth and route network options are now limited unless they merge or establish a focus on markets outside of Hawaii. Here’s what I think is quite plausible about WN possibly acquiring HAL:

1. HNL, the most popular and heavily in demand destination of Hawaii, is limited in gate space despite current expansion initiatives. Acquiring HAL gives WN immediate access to a significant amount of gate usage.

2. Acquiring HAL gives WN immediate access to inter-island services (with or without HA’s 717s- we don’t know yet what the performance of the 737 MAX7/MAX8 & LEAP engines will be on those short sectors and short turn-arounds as far as I know- please correct me if there is research/knowledge on this). I understand that the CFM engines on the current 737 NG aircraft aren’t ideal for HA’s current inter-island operation due to lack of adequate time for the engines to cool down between cycles.

3. Acquiring Hawaiian gives WN immediate access to all of Hawaii’s major air service markets in terms of gates and facilities.

4. Regarding the anomaly of a fleet being acquired if this rumor holds water: Acquiring Hawaiian gives WN the opportunity to have immediate exposure to overseas destinations (Asia and South Pacific), as well as exposure to widebody aircraft knowledge (A330, 767, 787) to determine which models would best suit their foray into long haul services via Asia, and depending on the future political and economic climate, Europe and Deep South America. This is of course in addition to the variety of markets WN has claimed to have its eyes set on within North America to grow their network with their incoming 200+ 737 MAX7/MAX8 aircraft in order.

5. The demand for service to Hawaii will not decline absent any political events. The state of Hawaii has consistently shown there is no shortage of tourists wanting to visit, and there is no shortage of locals who frequently travel by air to neighboring islands and cities beyond.

6. For an airline the size of Southwest (700+ aircraft), a (still mostly) domestic route network that carries a large proportion of the domestic air travel market- HAL gives them the next piece of the puzzle for future growth. Think back to deregulation in the US airline industry- all of the large legacy airlines had very limited or non-existent overseas services. That was 30 years ago. Southwest, in my opinion, has reached this critical mass and has the low debt & cash on hand to embark on this next chapter of their growth while the US economy is performing well- despite the slowly increasing price of oil.

7. The next decade will be a critical period of growth for WN. They’re unique in that they are a large network carrier- BUT, the only large scheduled US network carrier to not have any significant overseas presence outside of North/Central America. Acquiring Hawaiian will give them this exposure.

Even if WN were to acquire HA simply for the access to gates and facilities in Hawaii’s major air markets- it would still provide them with immediate access and presence in a steadily growing part of domestic US air travel. All they’d have to do is sell or return all widebody aircraft to their lessors and cede the Hawaii-Asia Pacific market to Delta, United and foreign carriers while they focus on absorbing the Hawaiian brand on inter-island and Hawaii-mainland network, as well as integrating Hawaiian Airlines employees. The value in Southwest acquiring Hawaiian is a lot greater, in my opinion, than many in this thread seem to believe.

airtrantpa wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

PDX88 wrote:

Yet that's exactly what happened when they acquired AirTran. Although there are many other reasons why a WN/HA pairing will never ever happen.

Air Tran never operated 717's on such short flights with quick turnarounds either. There's a reason HA bought 717's and no other planes to operate inter island hops.

We flew tpa-eyw on the 717, with out avg 25 minute turn

No you didn't. That would be the 737-700 my friend.

Oh, and by the way everyone: This acquisition? NOT happening.

barney captain wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

WN is beyond the pale... it's domestic.

It is?


See where we fly.

Aruba
Belize
Cabo San Lucas/Los Cabos
Cancun
Grand Cayman
Havana
Liberia, Costa Rica
Mexico City
Montego Bay
Nassau, Bahamas
Puerto Vallarta
Punta Cana
San Jose, Costa Rica
Turks and Caicos

Ok this whole thread is as delussional as a flat-earther, but the idea that WN is an international brand is laughable. None of those, except maybe MEX and HAV are VFR oriented, and local Mexicans cant even buy tickets on WN’s website so....

Continental767 wrote:

This makes no sense. The closest they will ever get is maybe a tight partnership. That’s it. They’re just two completely different airlines.

Completely agree. I've always thought that in general, HA would be a tough merger partner because it still has a very unique culture and brand that is very aligned with the Hawaiian Islands, and is probably somewhat attributable to their success as a smaller niche player. Any mainland carrier merger would ruin that unique cultural element, and possibly jeopardize some of what they succeed on today

airtrantpa wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

PDX88 wrote:

Yet that's exactly what happened when they acquired AirTran. Although there are many other reasons why a WN/HA pairing will never ever happen.

Air Tran never operated 717's on such short flights with quick turnarounds either. There's a reason HA bought 717's and no other planes to operate inter island hops.

We flew tpa-eyw on the 717, with out avg 25 minute turn

The difference is that in Hawaii, the average block time on their flights is 35-40 minutes, with an average in-flight time of about 20 minutes.

santi319 wrote:

Ok this whole thread is as delussional as a flat-earther, but the idea that WN is an international brand is laughable. None of those, except maybe MEX and HAV are VFR oriented, and local Mexicans cant even buy tickets on WN’s website so....

They can't even sell tickets to the people in the international destinations they serve? Ridiculous! Is their IT really that archaic? I see no commonalities between HA and WN that would make this even remotely under consideration.

asteriskceo wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

If the OP can't name a source, the only place the rumor exists is in their head. So many useless conversations started just for the purpose of starting debates.

I actually don’t think it is very likely. And I’m just repeating what everyone is talking about at Southwest today. If you don’t like a post on here, you are more than welcome to scroll on by without being rude.

Are you allowed by WN to post such things here? I would assume that you did sign a NDA today and probably violating the terms by spreading rumors here...

nmdrdh787 wrote:

asteriskceo wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

If the OP can't name a source, the only place the rumor exists is in their head. So many useless conversations started just for the purpose of starting debates.

I actually don’t think it is very likely. And I’m just repeating what everyone is talking about at Southwest today. If you don’t like a post on here, you are more than welcome to scroll on by without being rude.

Are you allowed by WN to post such things here? I would assume that you did sign a NDA today and probably violating the terms by spreading rumors here...

Are rumors covered by an NDA?

WPvsMW wrote:

and hub them at EXE.

HAH. Yes. Nice tie-in.