aristoenigma
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Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:28 am

How many of the 30 or so Boeing 767s flying for AC and AC Rouge now have have winglets?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:14 am

aristoenigma wrote:
How many of the 30 or so Boeing 767s flying for AC and AC Rouge now have have winglets?


None of AC mainline 767s have winglets as they are about to be retired from service, most if not all of the remaining bunch being former Canadian aircraft delivered 30 years ago.

As for Rouge, you can see by yourself in the gallery below which ones have winglets. I've already counted 13 after checking about fifty pictures.

https://www.airliners.net/search?aircraf ... lay=detail
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:21 pm

The early Rouge 767s have winglets, many are older frames that will soon retire. The later 767s that went to Rouge do not have winglets, however, the majority have them. Best way to check would be to work backwards chronologically from the newest additions.
 
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leleko747
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:39 pm

Rouge 767s without winglets:

C-GSCA
C-GEOQ
C-FXCA
C-GDUZ
C-GEOU
C-GHLA
C-FJZK
C-GBZR
C-GHLK

Hope i'm not missing any.

More than I though! I could swear only 2 or 3 didn't have winglets. I guess many of these are newcomers, ex-AC mainline, and were quickly painted to enter into service.
I wonder when people will understand:
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:14 pm

leleko747 wrote:
Rouge 767s without winglets:

C-GSCA
C-GEOQ
C-FXCA
C-GDUZ
C-GEOU
C-GHLA
C-FJZK
C-GBZR
C-GHLK

Hope i'm not missing any.

More than I though! I could swear only 2 or 3 didn't have winglets. I guess many of these are newcomers, ex-AC mainline, and were quickly painted to enter into service.


That’s them!

Won’t get winglets unless management decides fuel is expensive enough for winglets to save money.
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Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:00 pm

Many of the 767s are going to be retrofitted with new bins, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them getting winglets at the same time.
 
Exyxy
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:38 pm

Just wondering, if price is the problem could used sets from retiring aircraft i.e. AA be used or is it the labor strengthening the wing the expensive part?
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:55 pm

Are any of the 767s candidates for sale for cargo conversions?
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:57 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
Are any of the 767s candidates for sale for cargo conversions?


Rouge has some late production ones that would be ideal... but the question is how long will Rouge keep them?
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beechnut
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:18 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
Are any of the 767s candidates for sale for cargo conversions?


Rouge has some late production ones that would be ideal... but the question is how long will Rouge keep them?


An excellent question that begs another: what will they be replaced with? AC Mainline's 788s with a followup order of 789s for Mainline? A mix of 788s and 333s with a followup order for more 789s or even 787-10s for Mainline? Or Rouge somehow gets reabsorbed into a Mainline fare brand like Tango? Though this LCC incarnation at AC seems to have more staying power than the others did.

Let the speculation begin! Although I think they'll be around for awhile. AC has invested a huge wad of money in its fleet over the last 10 years: 777s, 787s, MAX, and soon the C-series.

Beech
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:04 am

beechnut wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
Are any of the 767s candidates for sale for cargo conversions?


Rouge has some late production ones that would be ideal... but the question is how long will Rouge keep them?


An excellent question that begs another: what will they be replaced with? AC Mainline's 788s with a followup order of 789s for Mainline? A mix of 788s and 333s with a followup order for more 789s or even 787-10s for Mainline? Or Rouge somehow gets reabsorbed into a Mainline fare brand like Tango? Though this LCC incarnation at AC seems to have more staying power than the others did.

Let the speculation begin! Although I think they'll be around for awhile. AC has invested a huge wad of money in its fleet over the last 10 years: 777s, 787s, MAX, and soon the C-series.

Beech


They haven’t been warm to the idea of 787s in Rouge from what I’ve heard, the 787-8 is all but dead, the -9 holds too many people in a Rouge config. No new orders for any are planned and current options are expired. If I had to put money 767s will remain for a while, especially with the planned bin mods (777 signature interior bins). If they want some change to the 767s, the A330 are a more viable option, Rovinescu has even pointed to the fact that A330s refurbed are more cost effective for certain routes vs new 787s.
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ac7e7
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:50 am

AC CEO indicated a few weeks ago on BNN Bloomberg that the Rouge 767s will be the next aircraft to be replaced in the 2020s.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/company-news/video/air-canada-ceo-rising-fuel-cost-biggest-factor-now-impacting-our-business~1415077
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:16 pm

ac7e7 wrote:
AC CEO indicated a few weeks ago on BNN Bloomberg that the Rouge 767s will be the next aircraft to be replaced in the 2020s.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/company-news/video/air-canada-ceo-rising-fuel-cost-biggest-factor-now-impacting-our-business~1415077


Surprised they're adding the bins if they're all gone in 3-4 years.
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A388
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:26 pm

Will Rouge also get the new AC bandit livery but with Rouge titles added of course?

A388
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:45 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
Are any of the 767s candidates for sale for cargo conversions?


Rouge has a mix of a handful or so very old models, roughly 30 years old, which will likely very soon retire, and a larger batch of significantly newer models which I can't see leaving any time soon. Loads are absolutely jammed this summer, and I don't see any real effective replacement for their Europe services until the 797 arrives. By that time, these frames will likely be too old to consider conversion.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:03 pm

Exyxy wrote:
Just wondering, if price is the problem could used sets from retiring aircraft i.e. AA be used or is it the labor strengthening the wing the expensive part?


What AA 767s have been permanently retired? Every single 763 has been picked up (or is in the process of) by the secondhand market, there are no retired winglet sets to be had.
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:03 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
beechnut wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:

Rouge has some late production ones that would be ideal... but the question is how long will Rouge keep them?


An excellent question that begs another: what will they be replaced with? AC Mainline's 788s with a followup order of 789s for Mainline? A mix of 788s and 333s with a followup order for more 789s or even 787-10s for Mainline? Or Rouge somehow gets reabsorbed into a Mainline fare brand like Tango? Though this LCC incarnation at AC seems to have more staying power than the others did.

Let the speculation begin! Although I think they'll be around for awhile. AC has invested a huge wad of money in its fleet over the last 10 years: 777s, 787s, MAX, and soon the C-series.

Beech


They haven’t been warm to the idea of 787s in Rouge from what I’ve heard, the 787-8 is all but dead, the -9 holds too many people in a Rouge config. No new orders for any are planned and current options are expired. If I had to put money 767s will remain for a while, especially with the planned bin mods (777 signature interior bins). If they want some change to the 767s, the A330 are a more viable option, Rovinescu has even pointed to the fact that A330s refurbed are more cost effective for certain routes vs new 787s.


I don't believe the options are expired, they just aren't being exercised at this moment. It wouldn't surprise me to see them exercised in the future however.

As it stands, they have their 2019 widebody fleet set, but if they intend to do any growing in 2020 and beyond, they are going to need more planes. With more and more high quality, low time used A333s and soon 77Ws becoming available, it makes good sense for them to sit and wait, like they did to pick up the 4 TAP A333s which come to AC this winter.

Rouge wise, things are a little more pressing as some of the 767s are really getting up there age wise. I think it would be logical to replace the oldest with A321Neos. They do a ton of N. American flying which doesn't need the 767 range, and there is no cap to how many A321s they can add, vs widebodies which are limited contractually to 25. Replace every 2 767s with 3 A321s and now you have a flexible fleet, and are saving a ton of fuel.
 
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:10 pm

A388 wrote:
Will Rouge also get the new AC bandit livery but with Rouge titles added of course?

A388


Although it's impossible to give a deffinitive answer, my take would be to say no since I believe both Mainline and Rouge liveries were developped at the same time once the board decided to go ahead with a leisure airline.
 
McG1967
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:14 pm

Rouge fly YYZ-GLA 3 weekly and YYZ-EDI 4 weekly.

As more 737 Max 8's get delivered, Air Canada could move both of these routes onto mainline and a daily service using the 737 Max 8.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:27 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
beechnut wrote:

An excellent question that begs another: what will they be replaced with? AC Mainline's 788s with a followup order of 789s for Mainline? A mix of 788s and 333s with a followup order for more 789s or even 787-10s for Mainline? Or Rouge somehow gets reabsorbed into a Mainline fare brand like Tango? Though this LCC incarnation at AC seems to have more staying power than the others did.

Let the speculation begin! Although I think they'll be around for awhile. AC has invested a huge wad of money in its fleet over the last 10 years: 777s, 787s, MAX, and soon the C-series.

Beech


They haven’t been warm to the idea of 787s in Rouge from what I’ve heard, the 787-8 is all but dead, the -9 holds too many people in a Rouge config. No new orders for any are planned and current options are expired. If I had to put money 767s will remain for a while, especially with the planned bin mods (777 signature interior bins). If they want some change to the 767s, the A330 are a more viable option, Rovinescu has even pointed to the fact that A330s refurbed are more cost effective for certain routes vs new 787s.


I don't believe the options are expired, they just aren't being exercised at this moment. It wouldn't surprise me to see them exercised in the future however.

As it stands, they have their 2019 widebody fleet set, but if they intend to do any growing in 2020 and beyond, they are going to need more planes. With more and more high quality, low time used A333s and soon 77Ws becoming available, it makes good sense for them to sit and wait, like they did to pick up the 4 TAP A333s which come to AC this winter.

Rouge wise, things are a little more pressing as some of the 767s are really getting up there age wise. I think it would be logical to replace the oldest with A321Neos. They do a ton of N. American flying which doesn't need the 767 range, and there is no cap to how many A321s they can add, vs widebodies which are limited contractually to 25. Replace every 2 767s with 3 A321s and now you have a flexible fleet, and are saving a ton of fuel.



While I believe AC will order 321Ns, where they’d go is tbd. Sure some of the 767s are really old but why move ones like FXCA over and reconfigure then if they plan to park them in a short time. Maybe a reduction of 767s is possible but I still think using the -33A series and -333 series, they’ll continue widebody ops to places in Europe and other overseas destinations that don’t require a 787.

As for the 787 options, I’ve been told that they are expired which is part of the reason they chose additional A330s, sure the A330 has an advantage for AC on the routes they operate on but, if you ready back to when that acquisition was announced it mentions about the 787 options not being a choice and a renegotiation for 787s to be more expensive than the original order.
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:36 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
I don't believe the options are expired, they just aren't being exercised at this moment. It wouldn't surprise me to see them exercised in the future however.

As it stands, they have their 2019 widebody fleet set, but if they intend to do any growing in 2020 and beyond, they are going to need more planes. With more and more high quality, low time used A333s and soon 77Ws becoming available, it makes good sense for them to sit and wait, like they did to pick up the 4 TAP A333s which come to AC this winter.

Rouge wise, things are a little more pressing as some of the 767s are really getting up there age wise. I think it would be logical to replace the oldest with A321Neos. They do a ton of N. American flying which doesn't need the 767 range, and there is no cap to how many A321s they can add, vs widebodies which are limited contractually to 25. Replace every 2 767s with 3 A321s and now you have a flexible fleet, and are saving a ton of fuel.

If the options haven’t expired they will be eventually as I remember the expiry being to far a way a year ago, but can’t remeber exactly when it was.

With the 767s only 4 of them are sub 500 LN numbers and the oldest of the 500s is about 25 years old so it should be good for another 5 years or so if need be. The oldest 767 in the rouge fleet is a few months younger than the oldest A320 in the mainline fleet and there still isn’t much of a concrete plan for retirement of that fleet. They may eventually replace some of the 767s in a few years, but I don’t see the bulk of the fleet going anywhere yet. All you have to do for example is look at the Florida flights in the winter where they are mostly operated by 767s all day other than the few smaller destinations like SRQ. Even in the summer some of the routes still support a 767 at the busier time of day and an A319 at the quieter time and they do fill these flights up in my experience. There is a place for A321s at rouge as they already have 6 so obviously there would be a place for A321Ns and maybe even LRs, but they would have to figure out a good way to make up for the 50-60 seats they would lose out on downsizing and the still would have to find another widebody that’s not a whole lot bigger like the 787-9 is.
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whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:08 pm

767333ER wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
I don't believe the options are expired, they just aren't being exercised at this moment. It wouldn't surprise me to see them exercised in the future however.

As it stands, they have their 2019 widebody fleet set, but if they intend to do any growing in 2020 and beyond, they are going to need more planes. With more and more high quality, low time used A333s and soon 77Ws becoming available, it makes good sense for them to sit and wait, like they did to pick up the 4 TAP A333s which come to AC this winter.

Rouge wise, things are a little more pressing as some of the 767s are really getting up there age wise. I think it would be logical to replace the oldest with A321Neos. They do a ton of N. American flying which doesn't need the 767 range, and there is no cap to how many A321s they can add, vs widebodies which are limited contractually to 25. Replace every 2 767s with 3 A321s and now you have a flexible fleet, and are saving a ton of fuel.

If the options haven’t expired they will be eventually as I remember the expiry being to far a way a year ago, but can’t remeber exactly when it was.

With the 767s only 4 of them are sub 500 LN numbers and the oldest of the 500s is about 25 years old so it should be good for another 5 years or so if need be. The oldest 767 in the rouge fleet is a few months younger than the oldest A320 in the mainline fleet and there still isn’t much of a concrete plan for retirement of that fleet. They may eventually replace some of the 767s in a few years, but I don’t see the bulk of the fleet going anywhere yet. All you have to do for example is look at the Florida flights in the winter where they are mostly operated by 767s all day other than the few smaller destinations like SRQ. Even in the summer some of the routes still support a 767 at the busier time of day and an A319 at the quieter time and they do fill these flights up in my experience. There is a place for A321s at rouge as they already have 6 so obviously there would be a place for A321Ns and maybe even LRs, but they would have to figure out a good way to make up for the 50-60 seats they would lose out on downsizing and the still would have to find another widebody that’s not a whole lot bigger like the 787-9 is.


What I would do if it were my job would be to replace the oldest 767s with A321Ns at a ratio of 3:2. That would account for the loss of seats by shrinking gauge, and allow them to increase frequency where warranted, and to modulate capacity where needed.

Mainline wise, I still think there is potential for their current options, they never explicitly said they were going to let them expire, that was a misquote that circulated around here, simply, Michael Rousseau noted that they weren't looking to firm any at this time, as they really don't benefit from them with the current used widebody market being such a buyers market. Eventually, they will have to replace those 12 A333s, not to mention plan for future growth. If they can extend their options into the 2020s, which I cant see as a problem given that they are among the larger 787 customers in the world, a top up order could make a lot of sense. I still see them adding more mainline widebodies gradually over the years in any case, but for the next 5 or so years, it makes a lot more sense to take a lower risk option and buy used.
 
Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:42 am

I don’t think the 767s are going anywhere till at least early/mid 2020 when some or the airplanes reach 30 years of flying. If it wasn’t for the strong market for 2nd hand 767s due to cargo conversions, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them swap out older aircraft for newer ones. Given the fact that Amazon has been pushing prices up, the next logical used wide body would be the A330. Future fleet I could see being something like 20x 767, 5x A330 by 2025, going to 15x 767 and 10x A330 by 2030.
 
A388
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:00 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
A388 wrote:
Will Rouge also get the new AC bandit livery but with Rouge titles added of course?

A388


Although it's impossible to give a deffinitive answer, my take would be to say no since I believe both Mainline and Rouge liveries were developped at the same time once the board decided to go ahead with a leisure airline.


Thanks SpaceshipDC10. I also don't think they will do it purely based on brand recognition purposes but thought to ask it anyway. I'm not sure they were both developed at the same time because Rouge exists for several years now while the new AC bandit livery is still new.

A388
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:15 pm

Options have not expired. They renew them.

They are in a very good position when they want to exercise them.
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:28 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Options have not expired. They renew them.

They are in a very good position when they want to exercise them.



Interesting , that’s news to me! Why not I guess
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sixtyseven
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:59 pm

I think people got pretty excited with the news of them stating they were not going to exercise the options, looking into it perhaps a bit too deeply.

The expansion they have performed has been incredible, but there’s nothing wrong with slowing things down, in fact if anything it’s prudent.

As for the Rouge 767 issue, the next pilot contract reopener will be very interesting as the company will no doubt want to relook at the 25 widebody cap. They achieved what they wanted in the most recent reopener concerning narrow bodies. Widebodies will be next and I think that’s when we will see the next big move, what exactly it is I don’t know but I’m pretty sure that’s when the 767 decision will be made.
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gwrudolph
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:03 pm

Another 797 candidate? Sounds like the timing will be just about right if AC/Rouge wants to replace them in mid-2020s
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:53 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
I think people got pretty excited with the news of them stating they were not going to exercise the options, looking into it perhaps a bit too deeply.

The expansion they have performed has been incredible, but there’s nothing wrong with slowing things down, in fact if anything it’s prudent.

As for the Rouge 767 issue, the next pilot contract reopener will be very interesting as the company will no doubt want to relook at the 25 widebody cap. They achieved what they wanted in the most recent reopener concerning narrow bodies. Widebodies will be next and I think that’s when we will see the next big move, what exactly it is I don’t know but I’m pretty sure that’s when the 767 decision will be made.


I can't remember - when is it scheduled again?
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:10 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
They haven’t been warm to the idea of 787s in Rouge from what I’ve heard, the 787-8 is all but dead, the -9 holds too many people in a Rouge config.


Wouldn't be the same true about the A333/339 too? I'd expect a TS like config. TS A333's hold 346 and 375 pax. That's lot more than Rouge's 279.

767333ER wrote:
There is a place for A321s at rouge as they already have 6 so obviously there would be a place for A321Ns and maybe even LRs


I recall reading somewhere that the A321's aren't a good fit for Rouge and should be transferred to the mainline. What happened to that?
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Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:34 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
They haven’t been warm to the idea of 787s in Rouge from what I’ve heard, the 787-8 is all but dead, the -9 holds too many people in a Rouge config.


Wouldn't be the same true about the A333/339 too? I'd expect a TS like config. TS A333's hold 346 and 375 pax. That's lot more than Rouge's 279


Maybe so, but the 787 is more of an LR mainline kind of because of its range and payload capabilities that allow it to go to markets like Australia... I just don’t see a fit for it in a leisure carrier.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
Speedalive
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:54 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
[...]and there is no cap to how many A321s they can add, vs widebodies which are limited contractually to 25. Replace every 2 767s with 3 A321s and now you have a flexible fleet, and are saving a ton of fuel.

I thought I read somewhere that said the narrowbodies are no longer capped, but they have to be added at a certain ratio to to the mainline narrowbody fleet. I thought I read it on avcanada but I can't find the post. Is that a thing or did I read wrong?

I wonder if newer used A332's would be a good fit for Rouge going forward as a replacement for the 767's. The 333 is a lot of plane compared to the 767, but the smaller 332 would be less of a jump (or a huge jump if they went with Transat's 345 seat config...). TS seems to be happy with them and so do many other leisure airlines like MT. I don't think AC really cares about fleet commonality given their mixed fleet, but it would be there.. They could eventually replace them with A338's or 9's for growth. If they did indeed renew their options for the 787's, it would probably make more sense to go with those though.
 
Speedalive
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:24 pm

^oops forgot that the 338 is basically dead..
 
klkla
Posts: 799
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:20 pm

If they're going to hang on to the 767's for another 7 years or so the 797 could potentially be a good replacement.
 
Speedalive
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767s

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:39 pm

klkla wrote:
If they're going to hang on to the 767's for another 7 years or so the 797 could potentially be a good replacement.

I'm assuming that they're waiting for Boeing to launch the 797 before making their decision on the right replacement.

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