leghorn
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ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:13 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-atr- ... SKBN1JS0DE

PARIS (Reuters) - ATR, the world’s largest maker of turboprops, estimated on Monday a surge in business in its sector over the next 20 years that could result in demand for 3,000 new turboprops valued at more than $80 billion.

ATR, jointly owned by Airbus (AIR.PA) and Italian company Leonardo (LDOF.MI), said one of the drivers for its bullish long-term forecast was expectations for 2,770 new routes potentially coming on board.

ATR, whose main rival is Canadian group Bombardier (BBDb.TO), added that 30 percent of regional traffic by 2037 would come from routes which do not yet exist, while the cargo market would also contribute to rising demand for turboprops.
continued....

One would think that it would not be a good idea to exit this market.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:20 pm

Maybe, but population growth doesn't (unfortunately) directly correlate to infrastructure growth.
 
leghorn
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:21 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
"30 percent of regional traffic by 2037 would come from routes which do not yet exist"

Seems ambitious.

look at population growth like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=ethiopi ... 0&bih=1105
 
musman9853
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:28 pm

While i think that new and profitable routes will emerge, isn't it a bit exaggerated? IIRC boeing claimed the 787 could open up thousands of new city pairs, and while it has been fairly successful at that, the number of new routes is a far cry from what boeing claimed. don't see why this would be any different
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
VSMUT
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:51 pm

musman9853 wrote:
While i think that new and profitable routes will emerge, isn't it a bit exaggerated? IIRC boeing claimed the 787 could open up thousands of new city pairs, and while it has been fairly successful at that, the number of new routes is a far cry from what boeing claimed. don't see why this would be any different


The regional turboprop market is being driven by different mechanisms. It is the fast growing middle class of the 3rd world who are taking to the skies. A lot of them live in poorly developed parts of the world, in places where public financing for long 737 capable runways is lacking. Local authorities either use existing [short] runways, or only finance just enough for an ATR capable runway.

India is building some 100+ new airports under the Regional Connectivity Scheme, and estimates that they need up to 200 to cover demand. The majority of these will only be capable of taking ATRs and Q400s. This is part of the reason why IndiGo is taking 50 ATRs, and SpiceJet will have more or less the same number of Q400s. More or less the same development is taking place in Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia and across Africa.

IMHO, looking at the economy and population growth statistics of the developing world, 30% may even be a bit on the low side.
 
leghorn
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ATR expecting growth in U.S. and China

Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:16 pm

In U.S. because a lot of turboprops need to be replaced and smaller jets are being used for small trips and because the market seems to be dysfunctional at the moment with smaller communities which should be able to support a service not attracting existing airlines but hoping that new entrants will enter the market.

In China because they need planes of every sort.

http://atwonline.com/farnborough-airsho ... -new-sales
 
MO11
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Re: ATR expecting growth in U.S. and China

Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:39 pm

leghorn wrote:
In U.S. because a lot of turboprops need to be replaced and smaller jets are being used for small trips and because the market seems to be dysfunctional at the moment with smaller communities which should be able to support a service not attracting existing airlines but hoping that new entrants will enter the market.


Good luck with that.
 
Socrates17
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Re: ATR expecting growth in U.S. and China

Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:55 pm

I appear to be one of the few who genuinely enjoys flying turboprops, and I wish them well. Nevertheless, this seems in the nature of a Hail Mary pass.
You Can't Take the Sky from Me
 
RJNUT
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Re: ATR expecting growth in U.S. and China

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:13 pm

..you gotta start somewhere.. ATR's will be used


https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ictoria-tx
 
Nami
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Re: ATR expecting growth in U.S. and China

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:13 pm

More or less already discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1398013
 
nikeherc
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Re: ATR expecting growth in U.S. and China

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:23 pm

How many places in the U.S. are 5 to 6 hours away from an airport with commercial service? That would be 250 to 300 miles, which seems a bit much to me. If there are such places, it would seem to me that they would be more concerned with getting their sunlight pipes replaced.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
eraugrad02
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:57 pm

I can see Bombardier restarting production of 37/50/70/100 seater turbo props with the performance of the q400 in the forseeable future.will be a winner for markets not big enough for a jet but a turbo prop that as fast as a light jet and altitude of 25,000 feet. Itll be fast and as comfortable as a ERJ-135/-140/-145. What say u guyz?
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c933103
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Re: ATR expecting growth in U.S. and China

Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:55 pm

I don't think China need many planes with <150 seats right now, especially for the populous half of the country.
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seahawk
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:53 am

eraugrad02 wrote:
I can see Bombardier restarting production of 37/50/70/100 seater turbo props with the performance of the q400 in the forseeable future.will be a winner for markets not big enough for a jet but a turbo prop that as fast as a light jet and altitude of 25,000 feet. Itll be fast and as comfortable as a ERJ-135/-140/-145. What say u guyz?


The biggest drawback of the Q400 is the performance, as it means more powerful engines, which means more fuel burn, which is a bigger drawback for many users than the performance is an advantage.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:59 am

seahawk wrote:
eraugrad02 wrote:
I can see Bombardier restarting production of 37/50/70/100 seater turbo props with the performance of the q400 in the forseeable future.will be a winner for markets not big enough for a jet but a turbo prop that as fast as a light jet and altitude of 25,000 feet. Itll be fast and as comfortable as a ERJ-135/-140/-145. What say u guyz?


The biggest drawback of the Q400 is the performance, as it means more powerful engines, which means more fuel burn, which is a bigger drawback for many users than the performance is an advantage.

Just because the performance is available, that doesn't mean one has to use it. Unfortunately, the Q400 Fuel Efficiency Manual no longer seems to be available from the BBD website. It very conveniently outlined how to optimize cruise speed/altitude in order to achieve the desire result in efficiency. The point is that one doesn't have to operate at max cruise speed and/or altitude, and when you don't, significant fuel savings can be had. One can operate the Q400 at similar speeds/altitudes to what the ATR is capable of, and achieve the same efficiency. The advantage for the Q400 is that if/when you need a little extra speed and/or altitude, you have that capability available. You just have to spend a little extra fuel.
 
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seahawk
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:11 am

Well except from the maintenance costs.
 
c933103
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:11 am

musman9853 wrote:
While i think that new and profitable routes will emerge, isn't it a bit exaggerated? IIRC boeing claimed the 787 could open up thousands of new city pairs, and while it has been fairly successful at that, the number of new routes is a far cry from what boeing claimed. don't see why this would be any different

787s aren't flying into airports that can't even support a 737 feeder flight and use ATR instead
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VSMUT
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:57 am

c933103 wrote:
I don't think China need many planes with <150 seats right now, especially for the populous half of the country.


China just changed the rules regarding startup airlines. A new airline must have a fleet of 25 regional aircraft before it will be allowed to move up to mainline jets:

But provisions include scaling back access to major hubs and a requirement that new regional carriers operate at least 25 smaller city-hopper jets before graduating to bigger aircraft, according to three industry sources familiar with the policy.

That could translate into Chinese demand for more than 250 new regional jets in the next two years,

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... SKBN14803E

aerolimani wrote:
seahawk wrote:
eraugrad02 wrote:
I can see Bombardier restarting production of 37/50/70/100 seater turbo props with the performance of the q400 in the forseeable future.will be a winner for markets not big enough for a jet but a turbo prop that as fast as a light jet and altitude of 25,000 feet. Itll be fast and as comfortable as a ERJ-135/-140/-145. What say u guyz?


The biggest drawback of the Q400 is the performance, as it means more powerful engines, which means more fuel burn, which is a bigger drawback for many users than the performance is an advantage.

Just because the performance is available, that doesn't mean one has to use it. Unfortunately, the Q400 Fuel Efficiency Manual no longer seems to be available from the BBD website. It very conveniently outlined how to optimize cruise speed/altitude in order to achieve the desire result in efficiency. The point is that one doesn't have to operate at max cruise speed and/or altitude, and when you don't, significant fuel savings can be had. One can operate the Q400 at similar speeds/altitudes to what the ATR is capable of, and achieve the same efficiency. The advantage for the Q400 is that if/when you need a little extra speed and/or altitude, you have that capability available. You just have to spend a little extra fuel.


You keep repeating this nonsense. The Q400 burns 33% more fuel even at it's most efficient cruise speed. That's a fact. It is impossible to achieve ATR efficiency in a Q400, regardless of the speed and altitude you fly at.
 
LPSHobby
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:39 am

good chance for Embraer to enter this market !!!!
 
leghorn
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:21 am

A Q400 still burns much less than a jet.
A lengthened Q400 will have a lower seat cost than a current Q400.
A shortened Q400 with sardine can seating and a PW127G would have a lower seat cost but costs more to certify the engine in the new application than the stretch.
Both would have their merits but only after Bombardier address how expensive it is to build planes in Toronto.
 
VSMUT
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:04 am

leghorn wrote:
A Q400 still burns much less than a jet.


True, but then you need to start comparing it to the relevant jets, rather than the ATR.

A fast cruising Q400 will burn through 1200 kg/hr.
The CS100 only goes through 300-400 kg more, while carrying more passengers at a higher speed, with greater comfort and potentially longer distances. The smaller E175-E2 and MRJ90 will likely get even closer.

If you were already prepared to sacrifice fuel burn for higher performance, then upgrading one small step further to a jet is going to be very tempting.


leghorn wrote:
A lengthened Q400 will have a lower seat cost than a current Q400.


But also a higher total fuel burn, altogether putting it closer to the regional jets in both costs and capacity.


leghorn wrote:
A shortened Q400 with sardine can seating and a PW127G would have a lower seat cost but costs more to certify the engine in the new application than the stretch.


IMHO, this is probably the best bet for Bombardier if they want to remain relevant.
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:06 am

In addition to fuel burn, the Q400 is 7.5 tonnes heavier than an ATR 72, which means airlines incur additional weight based charges (landing / parking / overflight etc...)

I actually agree with ATR's market analysis here. Normally I find these figures to be pretty punchy, but 3,000 frames over 20 years is 150 orders per year - in context they booked 113 orders themselves last year.

Just looking at turboprops, there's an ageing fleet of 30-50 seat aircraft which will need replacing over the next 20 years, plus early generation ATRs and military variants:

An-24 family (Production ended 1979)
BAe J-41 (Production ended 1997)
Dash 8-200/300 (Production ended 2009)
Dornier 328 (Production ended 2000)
EMB 120 (Serial production ended 2001)
Fokker 50 (Production ended 1997)
Saab 340 (Production ended 1999)
Saab 2000 (Production ended 1999)

Together this comprises a large potential market where the ATR 42/72 has practically no competition at present.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
leghorn
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:22 am

ATR72 is less of a plane than a Q400. No disrespect to the ATR72.

ATR have acknowledged that they might only get 30 to 40 orders in 2018 and last year was exceptionally good while this year is weak.
a shortened Q400 with a 127G would bring the fight to the ATR72 and a stretched Q400 would sell itself to airlines who have routes that can fill it.
Both manufacturers have their problems. Airbus won't let ATR do what it wants to do and Bombardier can't control its costs to manufacture the Q400 economically.
 
c933103
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:31 am

VSMUT wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I don't think China need many planes with <150 seats right now, especially for the populous half of the country.


China just changed the rules regarding startup airlines. A new airline must have a fleet of 25 regional aircraft before it will be allowed to move up to mainline jets:

But provisions include scaling back access to major hubs and a requirement that new regional carriers operate at least 25 smaller city-hopper jets before graduating to bigger aircraft, according to three industry sources familiar with the policy.

That could translate into Chinese demand for more than 250 new regional jets in the next two years,

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... SKBN14803E


1. The rule that say regional airlines need to have 25 aircrafts to achieve its goal, come from document 2016-096, that listed out restrictions against new airlines, including restrictions against newly established airlines, restrictions against airlines trying to convert from regional airlines to a mainline carrier, and restrictions against converting from a freight airlines to a passenger airlines, with the intention of trying to block those loopholes in regulations and make it harder to have a new mainline carrier. Specifically for regional carrier, the intention of the regulation is to prevent someone from establishing a new mainline airlines by first making a regional one and then convert it to a mainline. It is in no way the only mean to establish a new carrier in China.
2. Even if someone really have the intention to follow this regulation, all they have to do is to buy 25 regional aircraft, fly it, then acquire the approval to upgrade to mainline carrier, upgauge those routes, and then sell those regional aircraft to others, possibly the next one who want to establish a new carrier in this method. If their goals are to establish a new mainline carrier and only see the regional airlines requirement as a tool, there are absolutely no reason why they would keep those planes after they acquired the necessary requirements.
3. And even for those aircrafts, there are barely any reason why airlines would use ATRs. In recent years some airlines have been established via this process (despite needing less than 25 planes before the regulation), most of them used ERJ/E-Jet at the start, instead of props. You might argue in the future those who tries to do so might attempts with ATR instead as they are cheaper, but MA60/600/ARJ21 will be even more cheaper and they will also better match the goal of gaining regulatory approval cor conversion to mainline due to the patriotic factor.
4. Even when it was easier to use this route to convert from a regional carrier to a mainline carrier, the number of airlines doing so were far less than "10+ airlines in 2 years" (250+/25). Why would people expect a sudden surge in application after the regulation tightened?
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VSMUT
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:39 pm

leghorn wrote:
a shortened Q400 with a 127G would bring the fight to the ATR72 and a stretched Q400 would sell itself to airlines who have routes that can fill it.


You would need to do a lot more than just shorten it in order to make it competitive. The Q400 is, as mentioned above, 7,5 tons heavier. Remove a couple of meters of fuselage and fitting lighter engines won't save you 7 tons. The APU needs to go, it needs new lighter landing gear, anything to do with rough-field ops needs to be trimmed away to make it a true paved-runway aircraft. Internally, remove the rear galley and replace it with seats. Maybe even chop down the wings to a shorter length.

The Q400lite will have to be much less of an aircraft than the Q400 if it has to have any hope of competing.
 
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keesje
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:58 pm

I think in the past ATR / Airbus indicated to go for an upgrade rather then something entirely new.

E.g. an ATR NEO, with more capacity and better performance.

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JoeCanuck
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:17 pm

BBD could probably stretch the Q400 to a true 90-100 seater without too much trouble, which would give ATR a run for their money in the CASM department.

Currently, it's almost built like a shrink, with more power and range than it needs for most of the routes it flies, which has meant unnecessary extra empty weight per passenger. The easiest route for them if they want to keep the Q relevant, is to sacrifice range for more seats.
What the...?
 
cheapgreek
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:11 pm

Props are dead in the USA. The newer RJ's 70-90 seat models are well received by the public whereas the props are scorned. A recent flight on a Dash-300 was extremely noisy, the overhead bins were vibrating through the whole flight, generally a poor quality flight. Flying a PHL-ROA flight on a Dash and a few months later on a CRJ-200 showed a marked difference in less noise, no vibration and a much faster cruise speed. The Q400 is based on the earlier Dash models and so it shares its slow speed and a high rate of mechanical delays and cancellations.
There's no going back in time, tomorrow Piedmont will have its last Dash flight and I am happy over that.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: ATR expecting growth in U.S. and China

Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:21 pm

nikeherc wrote:
How many places in the U.S. are 5 to 6 hours away from an airport with commercial service? That would be 250 to 300 miles, which seems a bit much to me. If there are such places, it would seem to me that they would be more concerned with getting their sunlight pipes replaced.


I think there could be a market for mid sized market flying 40 to 50 seaters using the triangle and diamond routing methods
Hypothetical routes:
XNA-STL-MEM-XNA
And
XNA-AUS-MSY-XNA

Run one way in the morning and the other in the afternoon
 
VSMUT
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:34 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
BBD could probably stretch the Q400 to a true 90-100 seater without too much trouble, which would give ATR a run for their money in the CASM department.


But also placing it solidly in competition with the regional jets, the latest of which burn no more than 300 kg/hr more than an existing Q400. Stretching the ATR 42 to the 72 added 200 kg/hr to the fuel burn. If a stretched Q400 would experience the same increase, it would achieve the exact same fuel burn as the latest regional jets (and if we use the increase measured in percentage, it would actually exceed even current generation RJs by a bit). Why buy a turboprop in the first place then?
 
leghorn
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:42 am

VSMUT wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
BBD could probably stretch the Q400 to a true 90-100 seater without too much trouble, which would give ATR a run for their money in the CASM department.


But also placing it solidly in competition with the regional jets, the latest of which burn no more than 300 kg/hr more than an existing Q400. Stretching the ATR 42 to the 72 added 200 kg/hr to the fuel burn. If a stretched Q400 would experience the same increase, it would achieve the exact same fuel burn as the latest regional jets (and if we use the increase measured in percentage, it would actually exceed even current generation RJs by a bit). Why buy a turboprop in the first place then?

Do you have a source showing comparitive fuel burn on same sector length? the fuel burn statistics thread here on the forum doesn't show that sort of fuel burn for the Q400
 
c933103
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:23 am

VSMUT wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
BBD could probably stretch the Q400 to a true 90-100 seater without too much trouble, which would give ATR a run for their money in the CASM department.


But also placing it solidly in competition with the regional jets, the latest of which burn no more than 300 kg/hr more than an existing Q400. Stretching the ATR 42 to the 72 added 200 kg/hr to the fuel burn. If a stretched Q400 would experience the same increase, it would achieve the exact same fuel burn as the latest regional jets (and if we use the increase measured in percentage, it would actually exceed even current generation RJs by a bit). Why buy a turboprop in the first place then?

stretching from ATR42 to 72 is like a 70% increase in available seat and applying a 70% stretch onto Q400 would mean ot can seat 150? If it can carry as much passengers as a 73G with relatively lower fuel burn then it could have its attractiveness?
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cheapgreek
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:01 am

c933103 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
BBD could probably stretch the Q400 to a true 90-100 seater without too much trouble, which would give ATR a run for their money in the CASM department.


But also placing it solidly in competition with the regional jets, the latest of which burn no more than 300 kg/hr more than an existing Q400. Stretching the ATR 42 to the 72 added 200 kg/hr to the fuel burn. If a stretched Q400 would experience the same increase, it would achieve the exact same fuel burn as the latest regional jets (and if we use the increase measured in percentage, it would actually exceed even current generation RJs by a bit). Why buy a turboprop in the first place then?

stretching from ATR42 to 72 is like a 70% increase in available seat and applying a 70% stretch onto Q400 would mean ot can seat 150? If it can carry as much passengers as a 73G with relatively lower fuel burn then it could have its attractiveness?


The slower speed would result in less flight legs per day and some passenger resistance. Longer but still old technology.
 
VSMUT
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:12 am

c933103 wrote:
stretching from ATR42 to 72 is like a 70% increase in available seat and applying a 70% stretch onto Q400 would mean ot can seat 150? If it can carry as much passengers as a 73G with relatively lower fuel burn then it could have its attractiveness?


The ATR was stretched from 48 to 68 seats, so only an additional 20 seats, or 42%. 20 additional pax is also what you need to turn a standard Q400 into a 100 seater. You will need to stretch it by some 4 meters in the cabin, and make additional space for luggage too.

leghorn wrote:
Do you have a source showing comparitive fuel burn on same sector length? the fuel burn statistics thread here on the forum doesn't show that sort of fuel burn for the Q400


From a Q400 QRH I got to look through last year, and the above mentioned Q400 Fuel Efficiency Manual. A quick search on pprune will give you roughly the same figures.

You can achieve much better numbers when cruising slowly, but then you sacrifice the speed vs the jets, and you still can't compare with an ATR for total fuel burn. Throw in a 4-5 meter stretch, 1680 kg of passengers and 300 kg of bags, and your fuel consumption is going to go up by quite a bit.

Just using some rough numbers, even when you throw in 20 more passengers and cruise at a slow speed, the Q400 stretch will barely be able to achieve the CASM of the ATR 72. 600kg/[email protected]= 8,8 kg/hr/pax. The equivalent number for a Q400 at 800kg/[email protected] pax is 10 kg/hr/pax. Even in the unlikely case that they can keep the burn at 800kg/hr for the 100 seater, you only reduce that to 8 kg/hr/pax. If the burn increases by just 80 kg, it will already exceed the CASM of a 68 seat ATR 72.
 
leghorn
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:32 am

and the fuel burn for regional jets on similar short legs at similar low speeds?
I don't believe a modern regional jet is within 50% of propellor fuel burn on those missions.
 
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par13del
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:48 am

Larger turboprops compete with regional jets, once the comparison kicks in pax look at speed to destination, interior noise and ability to avoid weather, the major issue of scope I ignore for now since that is not pax preference.
Turboprops burn less fuel and are cheaper to operate, however, that financial issue has not proven to be a major seller, scope and major airlines buying up the true regional carriers killed that.

So how about going wasted space on the ATR, rather than putting in the 68 seats you do 50 with extra pitch, make it be that pax say they are slow and noisy but the seats are comfortable, what have they got to loose, is anything else really working?
 
c933103
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Re: ATR expect huge growth in regional/turboprop market

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:56 am

par13del wrote:
Larger turboprops compete with regional jets, once the comparison kicks in pax look at speed to destination, interior noise and ability to avoid weather, the major issue of scope I ignore for now since that is not pax preference.
Turboprops burn less fuel and are cheaper to operate, however, that financial issue has not proven to be a major seller, scope and major airlines buying up the true regional carriers killed that.

So how about going wasted space on the ATR, rather than putting in the 68 seats you do 50 with extra pitch, make it be that pax say they are slow and noisy but the seats are comfortable, what have they got to loose, is anything else really working?

You need passengers buying into it for it to work
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Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos