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FLYKTPA
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What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:21 am

Last year DL announced MCO-AMS in August and IND-CDG in September.

Now that we are quickly approaching that time of year again, what non-hub 767 route do you think DL will announce next?
I think most of us can agree that almost any new European non-hub route will be to either AMS or CDG.


A new international flight from AUS or LAS honestly wouldn't shock me at all.

What non-hub cities do you think will get a new DL European flight?
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:42 am

These are what I consider tangible possibilities, but there are probably others I'm not thinking of
CMH-AMS
AUS-AMS
TPA-AMS
LAS-AMS or CDG (wouldn't be on the 767 probably)

I heard that DL was considering SJC-Europe last year but it hasn't amounted to anything, and probably won't
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hkcanadaexpat
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:57 am

Whatever the destination is, it probably won't be in Summer 2019. The reality is that that DL is only adding two widebodies in 2019 (A359s) and they will be allocated (either directly or indirectly) to East Coast-Mumbai. In addition, we'll be seeing at least 2 (maybe more) 763ERs retired between this summer and next (as well as the two 763s). And adding MSP-ICN route. And replacing SEA-HKG with SEA-KIX. So unless a number of routes are cancelled or transferred to JV partners (EWR-CDG being one), there won't be a ton of yet to be announced routes to be launched next summer. Add to that high fuel prices which may result in an accelerated retirement scheduled for the oldest 763ERs if they persist.

I'm not saying it won't happen in 2019 but i wouldn't hold my breathe.
 
jubguy3
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:01 am

Delta considers Amsterdam and Paris hubs. I believe the only nob-hub routes would be ones like MCO-GRU.

Edit: misunderstood the post sorry if this came off as pedantic
Last edited by jubguy3 on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:09 am

jubguy3 wrote:
Delta considers Amsterdam and Paris hubs. I believe the only nob-hub routes would be ones like MCO-GRU.

Edit: misunderstood the post sorry if this came off as pedantic


That was my first thought too. Any DL flight to AMS and CDG is a hub route.

An example of a DL non-hub 767 route is PDX-LHR.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:15 am

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
Whatever the destination is, it probably won't be in Summer 2019. The reality is that that DL is only adding two widebodies in 2019 (A359s) and they will be allocated (either directly or indirectly) to East Coast-Mumbai. In addition, we'll be seeing at least 2 (maybe more) 763ERs retired between this summer and next (as well as the two 763s). And adding MSP-ICN route. And replacing SEA-HKG with SEA-KIX. So unless a number of routes are cancelled or transferred to JV partners (EWR-CDG being one), there won't be a ton of yet to be announced routes to be launched next summer. Add to that high fuel prices which may result in an accelerated retirement scheduled for the oldest 763ERs if they persist.

I'm not saying it won't happen in 2019 but i wouldn't hold my breathe.


Did DL decide to convert some 757A's to 757S, which would allow more TATL flying
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FLYKTPA
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:20 am

jubguy3 wrote:
Delta considers Amsterdam and Paris hubs. I believe the only nob-hub routes would be ones like MCO-GRU.

Edit: misunderstood the post sorry if this came off as pedantic

When I posted this I only had U.S hubs in mind. Sorry about the confusion!
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Beechtobus
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:22 am

I know CDG and AMS was ruled out as a non hub but should Norwegian pull the plug on DEN-CDG, I wouldn’t be all that shocked if DL made a go of it. AMS out of DEN is also possible. DEN has to be one of thier largest non hub/focus cities.
Last edited by Beechtobus on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FLYKTPA
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:24 am

Midwestindy wrote:
These are what I consider tangible possibilities, but there are probably others I'm not thinking of
CMH-AMS
AUS-AMS
TPA-AMS
LAS-AMS or CDG (wouldn't be on the 767 probably)

I heard that DL was considering SJC-Europe last year but it hasn't amounted to anything, and probably won't


Our lists are almost the same :) I have a feeling all of those routes are under or have been under consideration at one point or another.
I'd just add the following:
AMS or CDG-
MSY
SAN
RDU(AMS)
Last edited by FLYKTPA on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:28 am

With the lack of slots at AMS, what about AUS-CDG on the 767? As for East Coast to BOM, I'd be surprised if it wasn't on the B77L if from JFK. If it's from ATL, I could see it on the A359. (I know that CDG is considered a hub as DL flies from there to non-US hubs, but I consider US cities for this.) If from non-hub to non-hub, what about moving PDX-NRT to ICN as part of the DL/KE joint venture? Such could remain on the 767 as this is 4600 nmi (a wingleted B763 has an advertised range of 6310 nmi), or it could go onto the A332.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DTWorld
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:32 am

Probably something out of BNA? Its proximity to ATL seems like a bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. Otherwise, I'd say AUS-AMS and PDX-CDG.
 
FLYKTPA
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:32 am

DTWorld wrote:
Probably something out of BNA? Its proximity to ATL seems like a bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. Otherwise, I'd say AUS-AMS and PDX-CDG.



I wouldn't put it past DL to consider BNA to AMS or CDG. I'm sure BA has caught the attention of a few carriers.
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FLYKTPA
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:35 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
With the lack of slots at AMS, what about AUS-CDG on the 767? As for East Coast to BOM, I'd be surprised if it wasn't on the B77L if from JFK. If it's from ATL, I could see it on the A359. (I know that CDG is considered a hub as DL flies from there to non-US hubs, but I consider US cities for this.) If from non-hub to non-hub, what about moving PDX-NRT to ICN as part of the DL/KE joint venture? Such could remain on the 767 as this is 4600 nmi (a wingleted B763 has an advertised range of 6310 nmi), or it could go onto the A332.


If DL really wants to add a new AMS route I'm sure they could move a few things around. They added MCO somehow.
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:39 am

Id say AUS-AMS.
When wasn't America great?


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Midwestindy
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:41 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
With the lack of slots at AMS, what about AUS-CDG on the 767? As for East Coast to BOM, I'd be surprised if it wasn't on the B77L if from JFK. If it's from ATL, I could see it on the A359.


I heard DL wants to grow AMS since they have a lot of dots connecting to CDG.
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FLYKTPA
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:47 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Id say AUS-AMS.


I'd say the chances of that becoming reality are very high.
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:52 am

FLYKTPA wrote:
DTWorld wrote:
Probably something out of BNA? Its proximity to ATL seems like a bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. Otherwise, I'd say AUS-AMS and PDX-CDG.



I wouldn't put it past DL to consider BNA to AMS or CDG. I'm sure BA has caught the attention of a few carriers.


BNA at 3800 nmi direct is a route that looks at the very edge of the limit of the B757 with a suitable alternate (likely MEM). But if that were on the B757, could a 168-seat frame fly a bit farther? (MEM-CDG is 3970 nmi, and ICAO fuel regulations generally require planning for at least 200 nmi extra flying and still have 30 minutes of fuel remaining). The advertised range of 3915 nmi without winglets and 4100 nmi with winglets is for 200 passengers. DL has 23 757-200 internationally-configured frames (18 ex-TWA and 5 ex-Shanghai). That said, at 168 seats, I do wonder if it could be done on a B752 at least in the summer season from mid-April to early October, carrying only passengers and their luggage westbound; cargo could be trucked from Atlanta to Nashville, which is a 4-hour drive.

Now, as for AMS, I do wonder if DL could delete one of the JFK flights on its own metal (they arrive within an hour of each other)...and redirect that slot to AUS. KLM could then up-gauge one of the frequencies on its own metal, currently 20x weekly, to a 408-seat B77W; KLM currently uses a hodgepodge of any of its wide-bodies on AMS-JFK, although the A332 and B77W are generally only last-minute equipment changes.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FLYKTPA
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:52 am

According to this interview, AMS wants flights to LAS, SAN, DEN, & TPA.
http://cdn1.pps-publications.com/anna-a ... ge-18.html
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aemoreira1981
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:01 am

FLYKTPA wrote:
According to this interview, AMS wants flights to LAS, SAN, DEN, & TPA.
http://cdn1.pps-publications.com/anna-a ... ge-18.html


Interesting that you mention that. I have to ask if there is any way that KL unions would allow HV to fly long-haul, even if from EIN, to those destinations. At least 3 of those seem like holidaymaker destinations.
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:14 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
FLYKTPA wrote:
According to this interview, AMS wants flights to LAS, SAN, DEN, & TPA.
http://cdn1.pps-publications.com/anna-a ... ge-18.html


Interesting that you mention that. I have to ask if there is any way that KL unions would allow HV to fly long-haul, even if from EIN, to those destinations. At least 3 of those seem like holidaymaker destinations.

While LAS, TPA ect are large holiday markets,they all have a fair amount of business and premium demand. DL would also want to connect these destinations to the broader KLM network. I think it’s AMS or nothing.
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:21 am

Midwestindy wrote:
These are what I consider tangible possibilities, but there are probably others I'm not thinking of
CMH-AMS
AUS-AMS
TPA-AMS
LAS-AMS or CDG (wouldn't be on the 767 probably)

I heard that DL was considering SJC-Europe last year but it hasn't amounted to anything, and probably won't

Yes, very good point.

How is the current balance in the JV? Are DL-AF-KL back in-balance or are things out still slanted?

When are the first A339s coming on property again?
 
tkoenig95
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:30 am

How many more slots does DL have at AMS? Is it worth the risk of swapping around slots from one airport to another if all slots are already deemed profitable?
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:36 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
When are the first A339s coming on property again?

H2-2020
 
lhpdx
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:00 am

PDX-CDG
 
axiom
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:07 am

FLYKTPA wrote:
According to this interview, AMS wants flights to LAS, SAN, DEN, & TPA.
http://cdn1.pps-publications.com/anna-a ... ge-18.html


AUS first, then one of these, I'd wager. TPA-AMS rumblings have been happening for a few months...
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:26 am

Wouldn't a potential TPA-AMS route would cannibalize the current flight out of MCO? It takes a little over an hour to drive between the two from what I remember.
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:49 am

The idea of CMH-AMS on a 767 seems weird to me. As a former OSU student I'd love to see the route started even though I don't live in Columbus any more, but why would it make more sense than LAS, AUS, or TPA, especially with CVG and DTW being so close? Despite recent growth I feel that if any Europe flight gets started from CMH it will be with a 757 or perhaps an A321 from WW. A 767 is a lot of airplane to fill.
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:05 am

DTWorld wrote:
Wouldn't a potential TPA-AMS route would cannibalize the current flight out of MCO? It takes a little over an hour to drive between the two from what I remember.



No. TPA and MCO both support BA, LH, FI, WK, and DI. They are complementary ports of entry that are massive inward draws, and that together have a regional population of 8 million. It's also more than 100 miles from MCO to large parts of the TPA region - close but not that close.

TPA is a larger station in revenue than RDU or AUS, to put it in perspective. Central Florida is critical to DL.

DL 2015 Top Markets by O&D Revenue
9. MCO - $406.7M
10. SEA - $401.4M
14. CVG - $265.9M
15. TPA - $245.9M
16. FLL - $245.5M
20. RDU - $233.1M
40. AUS - $132.0M

http://sixelconsulting.com/Data/reports ... Sample.pdf
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:20 am

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
When are the first A339s coming on property again?

H2-2020


On the pilot memo about the AE, it was said the first 33N would be arriving next year.
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:45 am

PDX-CDG
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:26 am

why it's definitely AUS to anywhere among the coming new 250 flights...they have a new patio in the lounge, have you heard? that means new international service worldwide.
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Themotionman
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:39 am

Quick question - How do Delta choose whether to fly a route to CDG or AMS. Take IND, PIT and a potential CMH for example.
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:04 am

How about the desert for all of them in two years. Every other airline is ditching these shitcans - especially ones built after 1998.

And the 28 year old A320's live on until 2035... Toulouse predicted the future in 1987 while Seattle was shooting heroin and listening to Soundgarden.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
axiom
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:14 am

1989worstyear wrote:
How about the desert for all of them in two years. Every other airline is ditching these shitcans - especially ones built after 1998.

And the 28 year old A320's live on until 2035... Toulouse predicted the future in 1987 while Seattle was shooting heroin and listening to Soundgarden.


Delta's 767s are like new inside. I'd gladly hitch a ride on one any day.

Really grotesque atttiude. Bye Felicia!
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:01 pm

Why are people overlooking BWI-AMS/DCG? They continue to prove their ability to support international service. Or is WOW Air eating up too much of the international market?
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:09 pm

Themotionman wrote:
Quick question - How do Delta choose whether to fly a route to CDG or AMS. Take IND, PIT and a potential CMH for example.


IND-CDG was CDG because of cargo, without the cargo piece it would have been IND-AMS
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:50 pm

FLYKTPA wrote:
DTWorld wrote:
Probably something out of BNA? Its proximity to ATL seems like a bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. Otherwise, I'd say AUS-AMS and PDX-CDG.



I wouldn't put it past DL to consider BNA to AMS or CDG. I'm sure BA has caught the attention of a few carriers.


I would love to see a BNA flight to either but the temporary FIS can barely handle two aircraft. Two arrivals from Europe at a reasonably close time and it'll get crowded down there. FI or WW are also rumored. They may choose to wait until the permanent facility is open but thats ~5 years away.
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:02 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
How about the desert for all of them in two years. Every other airline is ditching these shitcans - especially ones built after 1998.

And the 28 year old A320's live on until 2035... Toulouse predicted the future in 1987 while Seattle was shooting heroin and listening to Soundgarden.


How about a little sarcasm with adequate commend of fact? Delta has been retiring 26-27 year old A320s (even refurbed ones). Some respectable carriers - BA and Air Canada - are flying 767s older than Delta's oldest. Refurbed with the 777-style pivot bins the 767s are actually a nice ride and offer long-haul comfort no 10-across 777 nor 9-across 787 can match.

IMHO, the frame utilization outline offered above says there's no metal for added routes. Might they drop something to add something else? Sure.
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:06 pm

Themotionman wrote:
Quick question - How do Delta choose whether to fly a route to CDG or AMS. Take IND, PIT and a potential CMH for example.


That is a very good question. AMS and CDG both have some unique destinations not served by the other but I can't imagine there would be much IND-AMS-Trondheim, Norway (to pick an example) traffic, anyway.
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:28 pm

axiom wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
How about the desert for all of them in two years. Every other airline is ditching these shitcans - especially ones built after 1998.

And the 28 year old A320's live on until 2035... Toulouse predicted the future in 1987 while Seattle was shooting heroin and listening to Soundgarden.


Delta's 767s are like new inside. I'd gladly hitch a ride on one any day.

Really grotesque atttiude. Bye Felicia!


They may be refresh inside, but the oldest ones may be only 3-4 years away from expiring on hours. Delta has a 767 with almost 130,000 hours on it and has scrapped others with more than 110,000 hours..
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:14 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
axiom wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
How about the desert for all of them in two years. Every other airline is ditching these shitcans - especially ones built after 1998.

And the 28 year old A320's live on until 2035... Toulouse predicted the future in 1987 while Seattle was shooting heroin and listening to Soundgarden.


Delta's 767s are like new inside. I'd gladly hitch a ride on one any day.

Really grotesque atttiude. Bye Felicia!


They may be refresh inside, but the oldest ones may be only 3-4 years away from expiring on hours. Delta has a 767 with almost 130,000 hours on it and has scrapped others with more than 110,000 hours..


What does this have to do with the passenger experience or the economics of their operation? Clearly, Delta thinks the aircraft have life in them for the time being. It's not really relevant to the thread.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:24 pm

axiom wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
axiom wrote:

Delta's 767s are like new inside. I'd gladly hitch a ride on one any day.

Really grotesque atttiude. Bye Felicia!


They may be refresh inside, but the oldest ones may be only 3-4 years away from expiring on hours. Delta has a 767 with almost 130,000 hours on it and has scrapped others with more than 110,000 hours..


What does this have to do with the passenger experience or the economics of their operation? Clearly, Delta thinks the aircraft have life in them for the time being. It's not really relevant to the thread.


The idea is that there will be fewer before long, as aircraft approach the limit of validity.
 
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
How about the desert for all of them in two years. Every other airline is ditching these shitcans - especially ones built after 1998.

And the 28 year old A320's live on until 2035... Toulouse predicted the future in 1987 while Seattle was shooting heroin and listening to Soundgarden.


How about a little sarcasm with adequate commend of fact? Delta has been retiring 26-27 year old A320s (even refurbed ones). Some respectable carriers - BA and Air Canada - are flying 767s older than Delta's oldest. Refurbed with the 777-style pivot bins the 767s are actually a nice ride and offer long-haul comfort no 10-across 777 nor 9-across 787 can match.

IMHO, the frame utilization outline offered above says there's no metal for added routes. Might they drop something to add something else? Sure.


None of the 320's retired had be re-furbished.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:33 pm

The economics of the operation will suffer further due to the “hard blocking” of two economy seats on *every* 767 flight for “turbulence protection” for the Flight Attendants.

It’s something weird and new every day at Delta.
 
nmraja
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:41 pm

I hope it's PDX-CDG.
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:48 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Themotionman wrote:
Quick question - How do Delta choose whether to fly a route to CDG or AMS. Take IND, PIT and a potential CMH for example.


IND-CDG was CDG because of cargo, without the cargo piece it would have been IND-AMS


Honestly, it was actually two reasons. AMS didn't offer the India connections that the Infosys people needed, and of course cargo was a big factor too.
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:50 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
Why are people overlooking BWI-AMS/DCG? They continue to prove their ability to support international service. Or is WOW Air eating up too much of the international market?


I doubt WOW Air is eating up the business market. If BWI has enough business demand (that will actually use the flight) and cargo then I don't see why not.
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zackary747
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:51 pm

N415XJ wrote:
The idea of CMH-AMS on a 767 seems weird to me. As a former OSU student I'd love to see the route started even though I don't live in Columbus any more, but why would it make more sense than LAS, AUS, or TPA, especially with CVG and DTW being so close? Despite recent growth I feel that if any Europe flight gets started from CMH it will be with a 757 or perhaps an A321 from WW. A 767 is a lot of airplane to fill.


If I remember correctly I think I read an article saying that Delta and CMH airport are in active talks. There's a good chance that CMH gets the 757 when the time comes.
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UWPAviation
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:17 pm

People on here can call me crazy or being a "homer" however I would not think its unrealistic to see seasonal service from MKE to Europe. Summer only, once or twice a week.

The amount of people I know in the Southeastern WI area who travel to EU through ORD in the summer is huge. Now throw in the universities in the area (Marquette, UW-Madison, UW-Milwaukee) who all I know run huge travel programs in the summer to EU. A 767 seasonally twice a week would do very well here. If the price is right too you can easily draw the northern Chicago crowd too.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: What's The Next Non-hub Delta 767 Route?

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:32 pm

Markets that could easily support seasonal DL to Europe that do not have service right now, in no particular order:
-BNA
-TPA
-BWI
-SAN
-MSY (CDG should be a no-brainer, right?)
-DEN
-CLE
-PHX
-LAS
-ANC (fun curveball, but FI flies there and DE flies to FAI)
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