WPvsMW
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:34 am

TK and the new IST will be a sea change compared to the me3 (i.e., not relying heavily on long haul n/s to LHR). (lower case "me3" to reflect change in stature :shock: ) TK can execute the EU focus city to Asian focus city strategy using NBs and small WBs, with frequencies* that the me3 cannot match ... esp. westbound into focus cities in EU members. TK could develop IST into an "LHR/CDG/AMS East" for connections, and exploit a mixed NB and WB fleet that the me3 don't have. And also do long haul n/s to LHR and other hubs.

*Many studies show frequency wins over low price for business pax, so discounts on J on an EK A380 or 77W won't change that paradigm.
 
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neomax
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:01 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
I'm not even sure they had time, (or the altitude), to pull the gear up.


This sounds amazing.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 am

lightsaber wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
EY and AUH have yet to face the pressure from TK hubbed at the new IST.

When, not if, Turkey joins the Shengen Area, TK at IST will eventually marginalize EK at DBX for scissor hub traffic, and the impact on QR/DOH and EY/AUH would be a plunge into an ocean of deep red ink with their current business models.
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/turkey ... travel-eu/

I've been alluding to how the new IST will impact the ME3 to... not to much agreement. A nearby high O&D hub has an advantage with attracting connecting traffic. The only disadvantages might be cost and of course premium traffic to any destination prefers a non-stop. It is ensuring there is enough of that premium traffic that ensures a hubs success.

Lightsaber


IST making a real impact on the ME3 is a long time coming. I have no doubt that it has the largest O&D traffic in the region by far and it may even be better situated as an EU-Asia hub than the ME3.

EK will weather the storm and I think QR has the deep pockets and the will to keep QR in the game, but it seems to me that every bit of news that comes out of the region, spells eventual doom for EY. Etihad was a vanity project from the beginning but it seems that even they don't think it's worth the effort anymore.

I have this position not as a hater of EY or Abu Dhabi. As I mentioned previously, I preferred AD to Dubai. It had a charm that Dubai never did...and nowhere near the traffic problems. Etihad was a better product back then too, but while AUH could seem busy, that was only because in comparison to the DXB terminals, it was tiny.

Still, the round terminal at AUH was a real jewel...one of my favorites to travel through, partly due to the low traffic numbers but mostly because it was stunning.

Image

neomax wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
I'm not even sure they had time, (or the altitude), to pull the gear up.


This sounds amazing.


Yah. It was pretty damned cool.
Last edited by JoeCanuck on Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
What the...?
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 am

Merging EK and EY and having them operate out of DWC just makes way too much sense for it to not happen eventually.

The ownership could be split between the two governments and hopefully they can make it so it's a joint point of pride rather than pride making stupid decisions for competition.
 
vadodara
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:02 pm

lightsaber wrote:
vadodara wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:

I doubt that there is enough international business traffic to support EY, and business is probably supported well enough with the existing terminals.

Even if they do decide to hang on, the most logical thing to me would be some sort of tie up with EK. Sure, they could try to get in with one of the major alliances, but while I can think of reasons why they would, what do they bring to the table? What does EY offer that anybody wants or needs?


Again, Abu Dhabi is not Dubai. It does not need the tourist $'s to survive. On the other hand, it can use its investments/geography to bring in incidental revenue. DBX is already crowded. No one is willing to move to Dubai World. No room for 3rd runway. Where do you grow Dubai?

What Abu Dhabi brings to table is load of cash. If you recall, in not to distant past, Abu Dhabi bailed out Dubai with the purchase of some landmarks's.

This will be decided by politics; so cant hazard a guess. However with a sensible CEO, EY can grow incrementally like Swiss or the 2 Iceland airlines.

Abu Dhabi doesn't have enough O&D to be a competitive hub versus DXB or IST. Tourism would help. EK and TK win this round.

Abu Dhabi wasted too much money. They are living as if oil is pricier than it is. They we're once cash flush. Hogan and moderate priced oil ended that.

Lightsaber


Hogan, yes. Not sure about the Abu Dhabi rulers. They have recognized the need to invest in business'. Obviously, they could have hired better managers.

You are mixing up the amount sunk in Air Berlin and AlItalia with that into the Abu Dhabi airport. But in a (very weak) defence of Hogan, his investments in Jet were a runaway success.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:54 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Merging EK and EY and having them operate out of DWC just makes way too much sense for it to not happen eventually.

The ownership could be split between the two governments and hopefully they can make it so it's a joint point of pride rather than pride making stupid decisions for competition.


It wouldn't really be fair to split the ownership because EK is 3x the size of EY, and EK has worked much harder and been way more careful with expansion, spending etc. whereas EY has been reckless and lost (and keeps losing) money.

EY made a mistake hiring this CEO. I watched the interview and he didn't really have a solid plan. They really should have poached Mueller from EK but I'm guessing he's getting ready to take over EK from Timmy.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:37 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Merging EK and EY and having them operate out of DWC just makes way too much sense for it to not happen eventually.

The ownership could be split between the two governments and hopefully they can make it so it's a joint point of pride rather than pride making stupid decisions for competition.


It wouldn't really be fair to split the ownership because EK is 3x the size of EY, and EK has worked much harder and been way more careful with expansion, spending etc. whereas EY has been reckless and lost (and keeps losing) money.

EY made a mistake hiring this CEO. I watched the interview and he didn't really have a solid plan. They really should have poached Mueller from EK but I'm guessing he's getting ready to take over EK from Timmy.


It's not so much the lack of a proper plan for the airline that has hobbled EY, it's the idea of the airline itself. There was no business plan that ever made sense for an Emirates Redux, an hour's drive down the road from DXB. The rulers of Abu Dhabi were miffed that Dubai was getting all the attention, Dubai's crowning PR jewel was EK, so they wanted an airline of their own, to show them what's what.

For Dubai, EK is an integral part of their long term plans. They don't have a lot of oil so they focused on services; airline, real estate, finances, international trade, etc. Abu Dhabi makes boat loads of cash from oil, so it doesn't need the marketing the way that Dubai does. The excitement of a shiny new airline is wearing off for the rulers of Abu Dhabi, I reckon and I wouldn't be surprised if they are working out a deal with EK already.

What it boils down to is; Dubai needs Emirates...Abu Dhabi doesn't need Etihad. Dubai will do whatever it takes to keep EK going and Abu Dhabi has better things on which to spend the time, effort and money.
What the...?
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:53 pm

My take: Sheikh Khalifa (not only President of UAE and Emir of AD, but Chairman of AD Investment Auth., owner of AUH and EY) will view absorption of EY into EK and demotion of AUH as a last resort. The preferred strategy will be to join an alliance ...e.g., 9W and EY join SkyTeam to counter TK's expansion at "LHR East" (the new IST) to preserve the "Abu Dhabi brand". In fact, the alliance strategy might make the AD Invest. Auth. more money in the long term than a "merger". If Sheikh Zayed or Khalifa had simply wanted better air service, the UAE would have built HSR to DBX. Moreover, a merger means less (or minimal or no?) AD input into how EK responds to TK's growth. TK's growth will come primarily at the expense of the me3.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:13 pm

EY is losing money at the moment and it seems that sense has finally caught up with them. Their expansion plans seemed unrealistic when you consider that EK and QR had similar plans. Something has to give and it seems that EY will be the one that contracts. As for the possibility of EY and EK merging and using DWC, lets remember that they are almost finished with the new Midfield Terminal at Abu Dhabi and this has cost them almost $3 billion to construct. Add in the cost that the upgrades to the existing terminal has had I find it hard to believe any businessman would just give up these expensive projects. These cost would be on ADAC and not EY. Same owner but different departments. So if you factor in the losses of Etihad and add the losses the airport would have if they left it I don't know many people out there who would gladly just say goodbye to those billions. The prudent plan would be to have the airline compete on its own merits and not try and fight fire with fire against EK. This would mean it would have to have some tough years ahead but in the long run they will find their place and grow naturally from there, instead of forcing it by having a further 139 widebody aircraft on order.

As for Turkish Airlines, the potential is there but I am worried for their political stability and the effect this will have on the country and the airline.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:52 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
My take: Sheikh Khalifa (not only President of UAE and Emir of AD, but Chairman of AD Investment Auth., owner of AUH and EY) will view absorption of EY into EK and demotion of AUH as a last resort. The preferred strategy will be to join an alliance ...e.g., 9W and EY join SkyTeam to counter TK's expansion at "LHR East" (the new IST) to preserve the "Abu Dhabi brand". In fact, the alliance strategy might make the AD Invest. Auth. more money in the long term than a "merger". If Sheikh Zayed or Khalifa had simply wanted better air service, the UAE would have built HSR to DBX. Moreover, a merger means less (or minimal or no?) AD input into how EK responds to TK's growth. TK's growth will come primarily at the expense of the me3.


One thing that might smooth the combining of the two airlines, is that EK is named Emirates...not Dubai. Sheikh Khalifa didn't have any problem putting his name on the tallest building in the world in Dubai, just to show the folks down the road who's boss. The question is, would he rather have a stake in one of the biggest and most famous airlines in the world, (which just happens to be named after the country he runs), or a perennial runner up which is getting less relevant by the day?
What the...?
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:19 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
.... one of the biggest and most famous airlines in the world ... or a perennial runner up...

Big, and famous, at present. Runner up at present. Two of the three applecarts are already upset, and the third is top-heavy and wobbling.
I'm sure there's an active internal debate within the AD Invest. Auth., which is where the decision will be made, that weighs the combination of AUH and EY vs. the alternatives. I think ADIA will try to "facilitate" the entry of EY and 9W into an alliance (SkyTeam, *A, and OW, in that order) so that AD, AUH, and EY preserve their distinct identity and ROI on sunk cost (with more WBs to come).
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:59 am

PerfectGriffin wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Merging EK and EY and having them operate out of DWC just makes way too much sense for it to not happen eventually.

The ownership could be split between the two governments and hopefully they can make it so it's a joint point of pride rather than pride making stupid decisions for competition.


It wouldn't really be fair to split the ownership because EK is 3x the size of EY, and EK has worked much harder and been way more careful with expansion, spending etc. whereas EY has been reckless and lost (and keeps losing) money.

EY made a mistake hiring this CEO. I watched the interview and he didn't really have a solid plan. They really should have poached Mueller from EK but I'm guessing he's getting ready to take over EK from Timmy.


Why would you assume the split would be 50/50. Government of Abu Dhabi would have to put up a huge amount of cash to make that one work like that. I mean, not entirely an unrealistic possibility all things considered but "split ownership" is not remotely the same thing as "equally split ownership"
 
KingOrGod
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Turkey joins the Shengen Area,


I personally don't believe this to be a given, given how the political landscape is unfolding in Turkey. They certainly will never (OK never is a long time, but its chances have been shot down at the moment) be an EU member state, and I have my doubts about them being included in the Schengen area.
 
AngMoh
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:12 am

KingOrGod wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
Turkey joins the Shengen Area,


I personally don't believe this to be a given, given how the political landscape is unfolding in Turkey. They certainly will never (OK never is a long time, but its chances have been shot down at the moment) be an EU member state, and I have my doubts about them being included in the Schengen area.


Indeed.

The article linked originally refers to Turkey meeting the requirements for visa free travel to the EU, but nothing linked to being a part of the Schengen area, which I can not see fly at all.
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airway1
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:20 am

What surprises me with Etihad they haven’t improved their product from Kuwait. You can’t charge prices at Emirates and Qatar level and fly the 320 to Kuwait. Kuwait should be part of a strategy to funnel pax to Asia, Europe and US. Emirates flies 6 dailies using 777 and 380 while Qatar uses the 788, 350 and 777 on most of the 9 dailies.

Kuwait could be a focus city for them as the local carriers aren’t able to handle the demand.
 
artofzen
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:31 am

LupineChemist wrote:
Merging EK and EY and having them operate out of DWC just makes way too much sense for it to not happen eventually.

The ownership could be split between the two governments and hopefully they can make it so it's a joint point of pride rather than pride making stupid decisions for competition.

Or become an EK franchise if thats possible.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:41 am

Re: Turkey and Shengen Area. Turkey has complied with the visa-free requirements, and is lobbying, just like Bulgaria and Romania, for Shengen Area. Visa-free is a preliminary step to Shengen Area. How long admission to the Shengen Area will take is unknown... the issues appear to be more "rule of law" than migrants.

https://www.novinite.com/articles/18696 ... ith+Turkey
[Alert. The link is to Sofia News Agency]
 
Newflyer2018
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:59 am

I'm still surprised the EY over the years hasn't added frequencies to its key destinations such LHR and BKK. For an airline the size of EY it should 5 daily instead of the 3 at the moment, I remember a while back EY bought LHR slots from Jet Airways and leased it back to them so getting the slots isn't an issue.

EK os operating 7 daily (6 normally) to LHR, 3x LGW 1x STN
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:39 am

airway1 wrote:
What surprises me with Etihad they haven’t improved their product from Kuwait. You can’t charge prices at Emirates and Qatar level and fly the 320 to Kuwait. Kuwait should be part of a strategy to funnel pax to Asia, Europe and US. Emirates flies 6 dailies using 777 and 380 while Qatar uses the 788, 350 and 777 on most of the 9 dailies.

Kuwait could be a focus city for them as the local carriers aren’t able to handle the demand.


They do not have the rights. In 2008 EK wanted to operate fifth freedom flights from Kuwait but their request was rejected. This was a time when Jazeera Airways was using DXB as a second hub, so Dubai Airports responded by cutting flights of Jazeera to all destinations excluding KWI. A few months later FZ was launched.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:41 am

Newflyer2018 wrote:
I'm still surprised the EY over the years hasn't added frequencies to its key destinations such LHR and BKK. For an airline the size of EY it should 5 daily instead of the 3 at the moment, I remember a while back EY bought LHR slots from Jet Airways and leased it back to them so getting the slots isn't an issue.

EK os operating 7 daily (6 normally) to LHR, 3x LGW 1x STN


I'm not sure of EY's departure and arrival banks, but perhaps 3 flights is enough for them. They've significantly increased capacity with aircraft upgauges.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:39 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
.... one of the biggest and most famous airlines in the world ... or a perennial runner up...

Big, and famous, at present. Runner up at present. Two of the three applecarts are already upset, and the third is top-heavy and wobbling.
I'm sure there's an active internal debate within the AD Invest. Auth., which is where the decision will be made, that weighs the combination of AUH and EY vs. the alternatives. I think ADIA will try to "facilitate" the entry of EY and 9W into an alliance (SkyTeam, *A, and OW, in that order) so that AD, AUH, and EY preserve their distinct identity and ROI on sunk cost (with more WBs to come).


Imagine the increase in efficiencies if EK and EY were working together against all comers, instead of against each other. Maybe they could turn Etihad into an executive airline, serving the whims and fancies of the ultra rich and famous with EK operating pretty much as they are...minus the showers but adding the smaller EY aircraft to give Emirates more versatility. You could keep DXB as the UAE's major long haul international hub and AUH could serve as a regional/executive hub.

Regardless of what they do, EY's model just isn't going to work and EK is getting hurt as the competition catches up. Both have to make major moves to stay relevant, but whatever they choose, the best option...in my opinion...starts with them working together.
Last edited by JoeCanuck on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What the...?
 
Planesmart
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:50 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
It wouldn't really be fair to split the ownership because EK is 3x the size of EY, and EK has worked much harder and been way more careful with expansion, spending etc. whereas EY has been reckless and lost (and keeps losing) money.

Follow the money, and it makes more sense.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:50 pm

Planesmart wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
It wouldn't really be fair to split the ownership because EK is 3x the size of EY, and EK has worked much harder and been way more careful with expansion, spending etc. whereas EY has been reckless and lost (and keeps losing) money.

Follow the money, and it might make more sense.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:53 pm

Whichever strategy ADIA selects... they must do something to remedy the ski jump P&L.
 
xwb777
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 pm

For all those saying EK and EY could merge together or as per the reply stating that Emirates could use Etihad's smaller aircraft. Lets not forget that Emirates have Flydubai that is covering the narrowbody needed operations.

Flydubai B737MAX9 and MAX10 will play a big role for EK in the future.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:05 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Imagine the increase in efficiencies if EK and EY were working together against all comers, instead of against each other. Maybe they could turn Etihad into an executive airline, serving the whims and fancies of the ultra rich and famous with EK operating pretty much as they are...minus the showers but adding the smaller EY aircraft to give Emirates more versatility. You could keep DXB as the UAE's major long haul international hub and AUH could serve as a regional/executive hub.

Regardless of what they do, EY's model just isn't going to work and EK is getting hurt as the competition catches up. Both have to make major moves to stay relevant, but whatever they choose, the best option...in my opinion...starts with them working together.


I know I'm not the only one but I've been saying for years that some sort of EK-EY combo must happen. viewtopic.php?t=582619

I was thinking it would be at DWC, which would allow space for a bigger airline, but conditions should force combination sooner than that.
EK could, for example, use EY to build out a 4th hub wave at DXB - there should be capacity for that given some slack, presumably, outside the hub waves.
I'd see EY base all of its large aircraft - 19 77W's and 10 A380's - at DXB, along with a good portion of its 787/A330 fleet.
EK would then use the large EY aircraft to upgauge routes and/or add frequency across the combined operation. Some of the smaller WB's could replace FlyDubai ops, open up new destinations like Koh Samui, Medan, Surabaya - and would "right-size" marginally-performing points for which EK has ordered the 78X.
With greater feed over DXB at both ends, and with more frequency options at big O&D points, yields could increase across existing itineraries and previously non-viable points could be served over DXB.
It would be especially valuable for the DXB hub to have access to all/most EY slots at bilateral- or otherwise-constrained points like LHR, Australia, and India.
Operational efficiencies could be had via upgauging to A380's for services like Chicago where EK currently uses 77W's and the two compete for basically the same 6th freedom pax.
Given that EY is losing $100/pax right now, it could offer a nice chauffered ride from DXB to Abu Dhabi for premium pax from destinations no longer served out of AUH.

Meanwhile EY could retain some 787/A330 and NB's at AUH to service important point-point markets that the rulers and their pals probably don't want cut (NYC, LHR, CDG, SYD, SIN). As needed, Flydubai could supplement service for expat workers by transferring some flights from DWC/DXB to AUH.

Economically that makes the most sense to me. All depends on the whims of few rulers though.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:29 am

Matt6461 wrote:
All depends on the whims of Khalifa bin Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan though.


Fixed that for you. ;)
Nothing will happpen that Sheik Khalifa does not want to happen.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:44 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Matt6461 wrote:
All depends on the whims of Khalifa bin Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan though.


Fixed that for you. ;)
Nothing will happpen that Sheik Khalifa does not want to happen.


Mostly but the Maktoun clan matters a great deal as well - specifically their appetite for moving EY losses to their liabilities. Presumably any EY/EK consolidation over Dubai would offload losses, not just airline.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:00 pm

High speed rail between Abu Dhabi and Dubai would be the last non political impediment to combining the airlines. After that, as has been pointed out, all that is needed is the will of the leaders.
What the...?
 
ytz
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:48 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
High speed rail between Abu Dhabi and Dubai would be the last non political impediment to combining the airlines. After that, as has been pointed out, all that is needed is the will of the leaders.


This.

The smartest and most optimal solution is a merger and move to DWC, with high speed rail servicing all of coastal UAE from Abu Dhabi to Ras-Al-Khaimah. Would cost them $10-12 billion to build the 270 km. Would absolutely transform the UAE. Heck, this already have an outfit to build the rail:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etihad_Rail

But this being the UAE, I doubt egos will let this happen. Instead, they are gunning for shiny, but infeasible:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/18/hyperlo ... -2020.html
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:16 pm

ytz wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
High speed rail between Abu Dhabi and Dubai would be the last non political impediment to combining the airlines. After that, as has been pointed out, all that is needed is the will of the leaders.


This.

The smartest and most optimal solution is a merger and move to DWC, with high speed rail servicing all of coastal UAE from Abu Dhabi to Ras-Al-Khaimah. Would cost them $10-12 billion to build the 270 km. Would absolutely transform the UAE. Heck, this already have an outfit to build the rail:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etihad_Rail

But this being the UAE, I doubt egos will let this happen. Instead, they are gunning for shiny, but infeasible:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/18/hyperlo ... -2020.html


Just regular, old, reliable high speed rail would be more than sufficient for their needs...though while still shiny, they aren't the shiniest things ever, anymore. If the rulers of Abu Dhabi and Dubai would stop throwing their toys out of the pram, they could be pretty much unstoppable.
What the...?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:33 am

ytz wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
High speed rail between Abu Dhabi and Dubai would be the last non political impediment to combining the airlines. After that, as has been pointed out, all that is needed is the will of the leaders.


This.

The smartest and most optimal solution is a merger and move to DWC, with high speed rail servicing all of coastal UAE from Abu Dhabi to Ras-Al-Khaimah. Would cost them $10-12 billion to build the 270 km. Would absolutely transform the UAE. Heck, this already have an outfit to build the rail:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etihad_Rail

But this being the UAE, I doubt egos will let this happen. Instead, they are gunning for shiny, but infeasible:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/18/hyperlo ... -2020.html

For both Emirates that is the wisest. One could even move that nearby oil facility and expand towards (into?) Abu Dhabi giving EY it's own entrance and perhaps another possible runway or two.

Abu Dhabi would have to fund much of the groundwork as Dubai doesn't have enough funds today.

Move EY to DWC with rail and a new terminal. Have FlyDubai move over first to feed EY, with work going to build a huge EK ready terminal. Then move EK over.

This only works if Abu Dhabi funds much of the transition and EK runs the combined airlines. Otherwise, forget it.


Since we're doing an alternative universe, can we also build a Disney park right at the Abu Dhabi/Dubai border with the parks and hotels in Dubai that serve alcohol and the majic kingdom in Abu Dhabi? Yeah, I'm ignoring myself and the runway noise impacts.... But one can dream...


Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4486
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:33 am

lightsaber wrote:


Since we're doing an alternative universe, can we also build a Disney park right at the Abu Dhabi/Dubai border with the parks and hotels in Dubai that serve alcohol and the majic kingdom in Abu Dhabi? Yeah, I'm ignoring myself and the runway noise impacts.... But one can dream...


Lightsaber


There's probably a better chance of getting Disney into N.Korea than getting EY and EK to work together.
What the...?
 
vadodara
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:20 am

Move EY to DWC with rail and a new terminal. Have FlyDubai move over first to feed EY, with work going to build a huge EK ready terminal. Then move EK over.


There is a precedence: once Burj got renamed, Sheikh Zayed wrote the cheque.

Rename DWC to Sheikh Zayed Intl and perhaps he gets interested.
 
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Momo1435
Posts: 659
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:23 pm

I quote myself from the Farnborough Boeing Orders thread as I catched something interesting on sheet from a Boeing Powerpoint presentation for Boeing's air show wrap-up meeting.

Etihad is listed as having placed a new order earlier this year, quite interesting when all of the talks have been about cancellations. There has not been an identified order for Etihad, so it must be one booked as unidentified, most likely a 787-9 order. Or it was a change in the orderbook that happened in July prior to the airshow, but the numbers shown are the net numbers for the year up to the last day of June.

Momo1435 wrote:
qf789 wrote:

Just something I noticed in the list of customers so far this year.

Etihad

This year there has really only been talk about possible cancellations when it come to Etihad and their orderbook. The only UFO order that could be for them would be a 787-9 order, could it be something else.
 
OlympicATH
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:39 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
There's probably a better chance of getting Disney into N.Korea than getting EY and EK to work together.


Says who? They are already cooperating in various areas and Etihad is even lending pilots to Emirates at the moment. And they could deepen these ties to include procurement, fleet, etc. This stuff is all over the press. Cooperation is happening and very tangible. A merger would be another (bigger) step though and is ultimately one to be made by the two rulers.
 
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sassiciai
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:45 pm

There is much on a.net about Etihad and its future, including a current thread on its new CEO's plan!

I think that the inclusion of the Etihad name on a Boeing PowerPoint slide produced some time ago reflects more that Boeing has not kept this up-to-date rather than the absolutely crazy idea that Etihad has indeed ordered additional lift, given its current situation!
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:33 am

OlympicATH wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
There's probably a better chance of getting Disney into N.Korea than getting EY and EK to work together.


Says who? They are already cooperating in various areas and Etihad is even lending pilots to Emirates at the moment. And they could deepen these ties to include procurement, fleet, etc. This stuff is all over the press. Cooperation is happening and very tangible. A merger would be another (bigger) step though and is ultimately one to be made by the two rulers.


Going from sharing pilots to merging is one heck of a leap. I'm one of the guys who is saying EK and EY should merge and the only thing keeping it from happening is the intransigence of the respective rulers.

Merging the two airlines means Khalifa is essentially going to have to take a hit to the ego. Maybe they'll see sense.
What the...?
 
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Spiderguy252
Posts: 938
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:11 am

airway1 wrote:
What surprises me with Etihad they haven’t improved their product from Kuwait. You can’t charge prices at Emirates and Qatar level and fly the 320 to Kuwait. Kuwait should be part of a strategy to funnel pax to Asia, Europe and US. Emirates flies 6 dailies using 777 and 380 while Qatar uses the 788, 350 and 777 on most of the 9 dailies.

Kuwait could be a focus city for them as the local carriers aren’t able to handle the demand.


Are fares high on KWI-AUH-KWI only for O&D pax, or across the EY network?

Besides, I don't think the A320s are too bad - though the IFE was switched off when I took this flight both ways once.
Vahroone
 
factsonly
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:50 am

Further changes for Winter 2019:

Etihad Airways in the past few days filed additional changes to its planned winter 2018/19 season. As of 28JUL18, latest update as follows. Note additional changes remain highly possible.

Abu Dhabi – Amsterdam Operational aircraft changes from 6 weekly 787-9 (Day x1) and 1 weekly A330-200 (Day 1) to following:
28OCT18 – 14JAN19 1 daily 777-300ER
15JAN19 – 03FEB19 1 daily 787-9

Abu Dhabi – Bangkok EY404/407 operates with A330-200, instead of 777-300ER. Previously not reported, this 4th daily flight is converted to seasonal, operating from 21DEC18 to 13JAN19 only in winter season
Abu Dhabi – Dublin eff 15JAN19 Reduce from 2 to 1 daily (EY041/042 cancelled). 777-300ER replaces A330-200 (service reduction also maintained on/after 31MAR19)
Abu Dhabi – Manchester EY015/016 to be operated by 787-9 instead of 777-300ER: 14DEC18 – 15DEC18, 03JAN19 – 21JAN19 (Odd days)
Abu Dhabi – Mumbai EY206/205 operated by following aircraft, instead of A330-200 (based on AUH departure):
28OCT18 – 18NOV18 777-300ER
30NOV18 – 18DEC18 787-9

Abu Dhabi – Phuket 777-300ER replaced by following aircraft:
20NOV18 – 30NOV18 A330-200
01DEC18 – 18DEC18 787-9

Abu Dhabi – Rabat eff 03OCT18 3-class 787-9 replaces A330-300, 2 weekly
Abu Dhabi – Rome eff 01DEC18 EY085/086 787-9 replaces A330-200

Previously reported changes:
Abu Dhabi – Barcelona eff 21NOV18 New route, A330-200 operating following frequency:
21NOV18 – 16DEC18 Day x24
17DEC18 – 13JAN19 Daily
14JAN19 – 20JAN19 Day x4
21JAN19 – 24FEB18 Day x24
25FEB19 – 03MAR19 Daily
04MAR19 – 30MAR19 Day x24
eff 31MAR19 Daily

Abu Dhabi – Cairo eff 28OCT18 EY653/654 787-9 replaces A321, 1 daily (Overall 4 daily)
Abu Dhabi – Colombo eff 28OCT18 Reduce from 2 to 1 daily, A321 operating
Abu Dhabi – Dar es Salaam eff 01OCT18 1 daily service cancelled
Abu Dhabi – Dhaka eff 01OCT18 1 daily service cancelled
Abu Dhabi – Edinburgh eff 01OCT18 5 weekly service cancelled
Abu Dhabi – Karachi eff 15OCT18 Reduce from 2 to 1 daily
Abu Dhabi – Kathmandu eff 01DEC18 Reduce from 2 to 1 daily, A320 operating
Abu Dhabi – Kuala Lumpur 19NOV18 – 19DEC18 777-300ER replaces A330-200, 1 daily
Abu Dhabi – Los Angeles eff 28OCT18 Reduce from 4 to 3 weekly, 777-300ER operating
Abu Dhabi – Mahe Island eff 28OCT18 Reduce from 7 to 4 weekly, A320 operating
Abu Dhabi – New York JFK eff 01OCT18 Reduce from 2 to 1 daily, EY103/102 cancelled. A380 operating
Abu Dhabi – Paris CDG A380 service extended to year-round, operating EY031/032 on daily basis. EY037/038 operated by A380 from 01OCT18 (Overall 2 daily A380)
Abu Dhabi – Perth eff 01OCT18 1 daily service cancelled
Abu Dhabi – Thiruvananthapuram eff 01OCT18 Reduce from 11 to 7 weekly


https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-28jul18/
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7384
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:39 am

When people here compare Dubai and Abu Dhabi and talk about business in Abu Dhabi and tourism in Dubai, they are of the mark. Abu Dhabi has oil and gas, lots of it compared to the population. Dubai had also some oil and quite a bit of gas, but far less than Abu Dhabi.
What Dubai has been doing is trade and they have been expanding on it. And they have been trading before they ever got oil. An economy based on trade and pearls at that time.
Dubai is a distribution centre, not only for the Middle East, but also for big parts of Africa and over to India. The biggest container harbour in the Middle East. World wide # 9. The biggest European harbour, Rotterdam, comes in as # 11 and the biggest in the USA, Los Angeles, makes # 17. You do not run such an harbour for the needs of the UAE. A lot of big world wide trading companies have a dependance in Dubai.
If we look at air cargo, DXB manages # 6 and that does not count DWC.
A sizeable part of the world trade in gold and diamonds is made through Dubai.
One can look at banking, Dubai is the middle east main banking centre.
Dubai is setting up industries, like for example producing 2.4 million t of aluminium.
So Abu Dhabi is all about oil and Dubai is all about business and that big, that there must be some O&D in Dubai based on business needs, less so in Abu Dhabi.
The tourist business is the butter on the bread in Dubai.
Last not least, Abu Dhabi the city, has a bit over 1 million population and Dubai about 3 million.
So even if Etihad is the airline of the richest and biggest emirate in the UAE, Emirates in Dubai has the more solid base to build on.

The best way forward for Etihad would be to fold it into Emirates, pride of the rulers in Abu Dhabi will not allow that.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:18 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Dubai is a distribution centre. The biggest container harbour in the Middle East. World wide # 9. The biggest European harbour, Rotterdam, comes in as # 11 and the biggest in the USA, Los Angeles, makes # 17. You do not run such an harbour for the needs of the UAE. A lot of big world wide trading companies have a dependance in Dubai.


Though in essence your argument may be valid, your statistics are somewhat misleading. Dubai Harbour is NOT as large as you make us believe.
Dubai Harbour may handle quite few containers, but on overall tonnage Dubai Harbour does not register among the largest sea ports in the world.

2015 - World's Largest Sea Ports - total tonnage handled:

1 Ningbo-Zhoushan China
2 Shanghai China
3 Singapore Singapore
4 Qingdao China
5 Guangzhou China
6 Rotterdam Netherlands
7 Port Hedland Australia
8 Tianjin China
9 Busan South Korea
10 Dalian China
11 Gwangyang South Korea
12 Hong Kong China China
13 Qinhuangdao China
14 South Louisiana United States
15 Port Klang Malaysia
16 Houston United States
17 Antwerp Belgium
18 Xiamen China
19 Nagoya Japan
20 Shenzhen China
 
Galwayman
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:54 pm

I think PE will be a game changer for the ME3 ... they can sell their premium cabins on EU, USA, and Some top Asian destinations ... but these cabins are full of op ups to India etc .... a decent PE cabin with dynamic and opportunistic pricing on a segmental basis is definitely an interesting strategy ....
 
User avatar
PerfectGriffin
Posts: 483
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:07 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
When people here compare Dubai and Abu Dhabi and talk about business in Abu Dhabi and tourism in Dubai, they are of the mark. Abu Dhabi has oil and gas, lots of it compared to the population. Dubai had also some oil and quite a bit of gas, but far less than Abu Dhabi.
What Dubai has been doing is trade and they have been expanding on it. And they have been trading before they ever got oil. An economy based on trade and pearls at that time.
Dubai is a distribution centre, not only for the Middle East, but also for big parts of Africa and over to India. The biggest container harbour in the Middle East. World wide # 9. The biggest European harbour, Rotterdam, comes in as # 11 and the biggest in the USA, Los Angeles, makes # 17. You do not run such an harbour for the needs of the UAE. A lot of big world wide trading companies have a dependance in Dubai.
If we look at air cargo, DXB manages # 6 and that does not count DWC.
A sizeable part of the world trade in gold and diamonds is made through Dubai.
One can look at banking, Dubai is the middle east main banking centre.
Dubai is setting up industries, like for example producing 2.4 million t of aluminium.
So Abu Dhabi is all about oil and Dubai is all about business and that big, that there must be some O&D in Dubai based on business needs, less so in Abu Dhabi.
The tourist business is the butter on the bread in Dubai.
Last not least, Abu Dhabi the city, has a bit over 1 million population and Dubai about 3 million.
So even if Etihad is the airline of the richest and biggest emirate in the UAE, Emirates in Dubai has the more solid base to build on.

The best way forward for Etihad would be to fold it into Emirates, pride of the rulers in Abu Dhabi will not allow that.


Good points but a minor correction on the population:
Abu Dhabi city: 1.8m
Abu Dhabi emirate: 2.9m

Dubai: 3.1m
Dubai metro area (incl Sharjah and Ajman): 5.5m
 
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Revelation
Posts: 18619
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Abu Dhabi would have to fund much of the groundwork as Dubai doesn't have enough funds today.

Same old story: Dubai has the ambitions, Abu Dhabi has the cash.

Last time it all went pear shape the Dubai emirati had to go hat in hand up the road to Abu Dhabi, thus the new name on the Burj.

It gets tiring to be hit up for cash all the time.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 15300
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Re: Etihad CEO lays out restructuring plans

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Abu Dhabi would have to fund much of the groundwork as Dubai doesn't have enough funds today.

Same old story: Dubai has the ambitions, Abu Dhabi has the cash.

Last time it all went pear shape the Dubai emirati had to go hat in hand up the road to Abu Dhabi, thus the new name on the Burj.

It gets tiring to be hit up for cash all the time.

If EK and EY are to be operated together a joint airport is required.

Dubai was lucky that they couldn't expand DWC when oil prices tanked, otherwise the Emirate of Dubai would have truly gone bankrupt.

So I was answering the question of if EY could be saved by coordinating or merging with EK.

The answer is no.

Abu Dhabi is working as an old fashioned resource extracting economy. That means they generate far less O&D demand. Dubai is a tourist spot, including the regional home port for a number of cruise ships.

EY isn't handling the downsizing well. Cargo is of particular concern. I find it concerning customers want to place cargo elsewhere:
https://theloadstar.co.uk/customers-sea ... tihad-air/

Remember when Dubai set up the cold flower warehouse? That was to give them economy of scale. Cargo doesn't mind a stop, but rates are effected by speed. With DHL partnering with ET, I would question too.

Mid sized hubs have not historically thrived. e.g., STL. EY needs to be partnered with someone for feed. EK is the obvious route to success. If EY won't pay for EK's ambition, then DWC will be built out long after EY's fate is decided.

Personally, seeing how many billion QR and EY have burned through, it is time to shut them down. Perhaps merge them in as divisions on TK, or buy into an alliance.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.

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