VSMUT
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:29 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

The Air Tanzania order for 2 CS300 is as good as dead as well. Got caught up in a political fallout between Canada and Magufuli.


Bombardier delivered a new Q400 to Air Tanzania only 3-4 months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Viye_mwLSc

This was a few months after this incident in November 2017: https://www.reuters.com/article/tanzani ... SL3N1NC5MI


From the insider information I got, the initial downpayment for the A220s is gone. This was financed by Canada, who withdrew support for the deal following the November incident. Supposedly the money was granted to the construction firm instead as compensation. It is pretty telling that the first A220 should have been delivered in May, but nothing has emerged.
The Q400s were already built and paid for at the time. Diverting funds from unbuilt aircraft would have caused less harm to Bombardier than leaving them with an undeliverable Q400.

juliuswong wrote:
As what Polot has mentioned earlier, the 32 firm order + 10 options Ilyushin order placed on 4 June 2013 is now with GTLK State Transport Leasing Co. On 5 August 2016, they cancelled 12 firm + 10 options, leaving 20 firm order. Then they cancelled another six on 31 March 2018, leaving 14 firm order.

GTLK State Transport Leasing Co. currently holds an order for six A220-300. Not sure where the other eight order went to.


Isn't Red Wings getting 20 aircraft? Could be some of those that have been transferred.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:18 am

VSMUT wrote:
Isn't Red Wings getting 20 aircraft? Could be some of those that have been transferred.

Apparently according to local news report, Red Wing is only getting 6 on operational lease from GTLK.

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russias-r ... -customer/
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scbriml
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:22 am

I don't think this cancellation is any reflection on the plane, more on yet another "change of strategy" by GF as they struggle to survive. They've been struggling for years and I wouldn't be surprised to see them disappear.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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juliuswong
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:55 am

scbriml wrote:
I don't think this cancellation is any reflection on the plane, more on yet another "change of strategy" by GF as they struggle to survive. They've been struggling for years and I wouldn't be surprised to see them disappear.

Sad to see once mighty Gulf Air has fallen so badly. They were once one of the most prominent airline having excellent hard and soft products and services. Since the pullout of Qatar, UAE and Oman, they have lurched from years to year without clear strategy and direction. They have slew of CEO for past decades, each having different strategy. They dabbled with B763, B77W, A343, A333, B737NG, Embraer 170/190, on and off with more or less A319/A320. Now taking in 16 B787 and 29 A320neo, still having 6 A332.

Let's hope the new CEO Krešimir Kučko would know what to do.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:08 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
LuxuryTravelled wrote:
I think the 'undiscolsed European carrier' is Air Baltic


1. Air Baltic announcing the order, by definition, means it's not "undisclosed".
2. Air Baltic ordered 30, while this order is for 31.
3. BBD said (I believe) that this was for a new customer.

I guess we'll see. :-)


According to a comment by Scott Hamilton of Leeham News, the supposed "undisclosed European carrier" was Air Baltic all along. Sounds like it was just smoke and mirrors from Bombardier when they said that it was a new customer.

Source: https://leehamnews.com/2018/07/15/ponti ... /#comments

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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:16 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
LuxuryTravelled wrote:
I think the 'undiscolsed European carrier' is Air Baltic


1. Air Baltic announcing the order, by definition, means it's not "undisclosed".
2. Air Baltic ordered 30, while this order is for 31.
3. BBD said (I believe) that this was for a new customer.

I guess we'll see. :-)


According to a comment by Scott Hamilton of Leeham News, the supposed "undisclosed European carrier" was Air Baltic all along. Sounds like it was just smoke and mirrors from Bombardier when they said that it was a new customer.

Source: https://leehamnews.com/2018/07/15/ponti ... /#comments

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Alexdk
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:43 am

juliuswong wrote:
Based on the list of customers, these orders seems to be very shaky:
Commitment only:
Air Arabia Jordan- 2
AtlasGlobal- 10
Falko Regional Aircraft- 20
flymojo- 20-> definitely goner....the airlines never started and their AOC expired on 30 May 2016 without any extension sought.
Zhejiang Loong Airlines Co.-20
Undisclosed African airline- 5
Undisclosed European customer- 31
Undisclosed existing customer-7

Firm Order:
Ilyushin Finance Co.-32
Iraqi Airways- 5

I took the list from WIkipedia, might not be accurate.

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russia-re ... ture-a220/
6 of Ilyushin’s A223s will almost definitely be delivered to Red Wings. Originally, the order was for VIM (which went bust), and Azur Air Ukraine (which most likely won’t lease planes from a Russian company). Thus, part of the remaining 26 may go to Red Wings (which is a wholly owned in-house airline of Ilyushin Finance) while the rest may go to some other Russian airline (I would bet on S7, Ural, or even Aeroflot), or be cancelled.
 
uta999
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:01 am

Is it time to put this airline to bed, and just become a domestic Gulf carrier?
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dcaviation
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:46 am

L0VE2FLY wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like Airbus is off to a great start! Just joking, I honestly expected this as this route just made much more sense for GF. Keeps the fleet simple and honestly that aircraft size really isn’t needed for them.


The CSeries was just perfect for GF, a very capable airliner that's small enough to allow them to serve markets too small to be flown by the ME3's bigger birds.


What markets? They don't need those micro planes. Gulf Air is serving one of the shortest international flights (Bahrain to Dammam 65km) with A320 and that flight is always full. I'm yet to fly on Gulf Air where the load factor is under 95%. Gulf flies A330s on a 45/50 minute long flights within the region, and these flights are full. Why would they go with purse sized aircraft? I'm not saying it with the hate. I like Gulf Air and I fly them a lot.
Their bigger problem is shitty airport. Now that Muscat has open new terminal, Bahrain's airport is the worst in the region. Inside is like most US airports. Built in the 70s and never updated. I don't know what's the progress on the construction of the new terminal, but I don't see them finishing it in the next 5 years.
 
wezgulf3
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:49 pm

It would seem this order is not gone just yet!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-450309/

Wes...
 
c933103
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:51 pm

dcaviation wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like Airbus is off to a great start! Just joking, I honestly expected this as this route just made much more sense for GF. Keeps the fleet simple and honestly that aircraft size really isn’t needed for them.


The CSeries was just perfect for GF, a very capable airliner that's small enough to allow them to serve markets too small to be flown by the ME3's bigger birds.


What markets? They don't need those micro planes. Gulf Air is serving one of the shortest international flights (Bahrain to Dammam 65km) with A320 and that flight is always full. I'm yet to fly on Gulf Air where the load factor is under 95%. Gulf flies A330s on a 45/50 minute long flights within the region, and these flights are full. Why would they go with purse sized aircraft? I'm not saying it with the hate. I like Gulf Air and I fly them a lot.
Their bigger problem is shitty airport. Now that Muscat has open new terminal, Bahrain's airport is the worst in the region. Inside is like most US airports. Built in the 70s and never updated. I don't know what's the progress on the construction of the new terminal, but I don't see them finishing it in the next 5 years.

...? There are lots of demand on a lot of short flights doesn't mean there are other airports with less travel demand from Bahrain in other part of the world that's still within A220's range
 
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3rdGen
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:49 pm

dcaviation wrote:
Their bigger problem is shitty airport. Now that Muscat has open new terminal, Bahrain's airport is the worst in the region. Inside is like most US airports. Built in the 70s and never updated. I don't know what's the progress on the construction of the new terminal, but I don't see them finishing it in the next 5 years.


The airport is coming up quickly. They have gone from essentially just the foundation to competing around 80% of the structure in a year and a half. I would expect them to complete the entire thing in 2 years.

The main issue facing GF is finding a way to professionalize the airline. You really see the difference when you transfer from a QR or EK to GF.
The majority of the aircraft are old and worn out from the inside. The cabin crew generally don't look too motivated. And it all stinks of a government owned airline that just runs to keep people employed. There would have to be a big push for a complete culture change, but I don't see this happening. The best they can do is to maybe revamp the fleet, which they're doing, and to improve cabin maintainance. And to get the Cabin Crew to smile a bit more.

With the new aircraft along with a new airport they will have the fleet and airport infrastructure to compete, the only question is whether the management will be able to utilize what they have.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:05 pm

juliuswong wrote:
With Airbus now formally in charge of A220 program, I think the new team will get the orders in order.

After doing some checking, these are some of orders that are in doubt.
Republic Airways Holdings- 40 A220-300
Odyssey Airlines- 10 A220-100
Iraqi Airways- 5 A220-300
Lease Corporation International- 3 A220-100 and 17 A220-300
Macquarie AirFinance- 40 A220-300
Tanzanian Government Flight Agency- 2 A220-300
Falcon Aviation Services- 2 A220-300

Feel free to correct me if I made mistake.

As what Polot has mentioned earlier, the 32 firm order + 10 options Ilyushin order placed on 4 June 2013 is now with GTLK State Transport Leasing Co. On 5 August 2016, they cancelled 12 firm + 10 options, leaving 20 firm order. Then they cancelled another six on 31 March 2018, leaving 14 firm order.

GTLK State Transport Leasing Co. currently holds an order for six A220-300. Not sure where the other eight order went to.



You can be assured the Macquarie AirFinance order is not in doubt.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:35 pm

scbriml wrote:
..and I wouldn't be surprised to see them disappear.


As long as the hydro carbons keep flowing and the monarch is able to keep the population in check, there will be a Gulf Air. Might be a much reduced GF, still loss making, but there will be a GF.

juliuswong wrote:
Sad to see once mighty Gulf Air has fallen so badly. They were once one of the most prominent airline having excellent hard and soft products and services. Since the pullout of Qatar, UAE and Oman, they have lurched from years to year without clear strategy and direction. They have slew of CEO for past decades, each having different strategy. They dabbled with B763, B77W, A343, A333, B737NG, Embraer 170/190, on and off with more or less A319/A320. Now taking in 16 B787 and 29 A320neo, still having 6 A332.

Let's hope the new CEO Krešimir Kučko would know what to do.


GF could be flying the finest, running-on-air, machines ever invented and still run at a loss. The choice of aircraft is not really fundamental to the successful running of an airline; the US3 have done well on the back of a fleet with a very high average age. The problem with GF is government interference and wallah, and it doesn't matter who's the CEO du-jour. Like all his predecessors, Kresimir will take a considerable amount of tax-free dollars for a few years, then sod off for pastures new. I think he, just like all the previous ones, know full well they're not - at the end of the day - running the ship, and that the financial side is largely outside their control.

GF is not an airline in the traditional sense, it's a jobs program and a way of extracting vast amounts of money to a few hands. Profitability is only a problem on the official surface, 'cause you can't go and say to the public 'well, we could be making a handsome profit but we decided to dish it out on corruption instead'.
Signature. You just read one.
 
MoReZ84
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:55 pm

dcaviation wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like Airbus is off to a great start! Just joking, I honestly expected this as this route just made much more sense for GF. Keeps the fleet simple and honestly that aircraft size really isn’t needed for them.


The CSeries was just perfect for GF, a very capable airliner that's small enough to allow them to serve markets too small to be flown by the ME3's bigger birds.


What markets? They don't need those micro planes. Gulf Air is serving one of the shortest international flights (Bahrain to Dammam 65km) with A320 and that flight is always full. I'm yet to fly on Gulf Air where the load factor is under 95%. Gulf flies A330s on a 45/50 minute long flights within the region, and these flights are full. Why would they go with purse sized aircraft? I'm not saying it with the hate. I like Gulf Air and I fly them a lot.
Their bigger problem is shitty airport. Now that Muscat has open new terminal, Bahrain's airport is the worst in the region. Inside is like most US airports. Built in the 70s and never updated. I don't know what's the progress on the construction of the new terminal, but I don't see them finishing it in the next 5 years.


2019 is expected for the new terminal

even with the highest fares in the reigon they still fill up their planes it's only a matter of yield management
Last edited by MoReZ84 on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MoReZ84
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:58 pm

B777LRF wrote:
scbriml wrote:
..and I wouldn't be surprised to see them disappear.


As long as the hydro carbons keep flowing and the monarch is able to keep the population in check, there will be a Gulf Air. Might be a much reduced GF, still loss making, but there will be a GF.

juliuswong wrote:
Sad to see once mighty Gulf Air has fallen so badly. They were once one of the most prominent airline having excellent hard and soft products and services. Since the pullout of Qatar, UAE and Oman, they have lurched from years to year without clear strategy and direction. They have slew of CEO for past decades, each having different strategy. They dabbled with B763, B77W, A343, A333, B737NG, Embraer 170/190, on and off with more or less A319/A320. Now taking in 16 B787 and 29 A320neo, still having 6 A332.

Let's hope the new CEO Krešimir Kučko would know what to do.


GF could be flying the finest, running-on-air, machines ever invented and still run at a loss. The choice of aircraft is not really fundamental to the successful running of an airline; the US3 have done well on the back of a fleet with a very high average age. The problem with GF is government interference and wallah, and it doesn't matter who's the CEO du-jour. Like all his predecessors, Kresimir will take a considerable amount of tax-free dollars for a few years, then sod off for pastures new. I think he, just like all the previous ones, know full well they're not - at the end of the day - running the ship, and that the financial side is largely outside their control.

GF is not an airline in the traditional sense, it's a jobs program and a way of extracting vast amounts of money to a few hands. Profitability is only a problem on the official surface, 'cause you can't go and say to the public 'well, we could be making a handsome profit but we decided to dish it out on corruption instead'.


that argument could be used as well with QR or EY as well
 
jbs2886
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:36 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
With Airbus now formally in charge of A220 program, I think the new team will get the orders in order.

After doing some checking, these are some of orders that are in doubt.
Republic Airways Holdings- 40 A220-300
Odyssey Airlines- 10 A220-100
Iraqi Airways- 5 A220-300
Lease Corporation International- 3 A220-100 and 17 A220-300
Macquarie AirFinance- 40 A220-300
Tanzanian Government Flight Agency- 2 A220-300
Falcon Aviation Services- 2 A220-300

Feel free to correct me if I made mistake.

As what Polot has mentioned earlier, the 32 firm order + 10 options Ilyushin order placed on 4 June 2013 is now with GTLK State Transport Leasing Co. On 5 August 2016, they cancelled 12 firm + 10 options, leaving 20 firm order. Then they cancelled another six on 31 March 2018, leaving 14 firm order.

GTLK State Transport Leasing Co. currently holds an order for six A220-300. Not sure where the other eight order went to.



You can be assured the Macquarie AirFinance order is not in doubt.


I was going to make a comment that Macquarie is a very sophisticated lessor so I’m not sure why they are on this list.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:42 pm

wezgulf3 wrote:
It would seem this order is not gone just yet!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-450309/

Wes...



Sounds like Gulf Air might keep the order after all. Perhaps the new Airbus partnership might make it worthwhile for them to continue with the A220 order. Maybe Gulf is using the Akbar Al Baker tactic and playing hardball in a public way.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:44 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
wezgulf3 wrote:
It would seem this order is not gone just yet!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-450309/

Wes...



Sounds like Gulf Air might keep the order after all. Perhaps the new Airbus partnership might make it worthwhile for them to continue with the A220 order.

Oh my, sounds like they are on the hook... Hmmm...

Or maybe a negotiations?

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
dcaviation
Posts: 411
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Re: Gulf Air to cancel C-Series order

Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:24 am

MoReZ84 wrote:

2019 is expected for the new terminal

even with the highest fares in the reigon they still fill up their planes it's only a matter of yield management


Really? I always see Gulf having the most reasonable fares for flights within the region. I don't fly in their business class as that would be a waste (BAH-DXB-BAH $600). In my opinion, they have also the best schedule in the region. The planes are not the newest ones, but I can't say that the cabin crew is not enthusiastic. Always friendly and smiling. Even made a friend with one FA :) Never had lost baggage (unlike every flight with Oman Air).
EK is always more expensive on the routes that I take. On average $150-200 per round trip. It's a lot of money if you are flying every weekend.
I took EK only once on my route. I loved it, but not worth $800 extra every month.
The food on Gulf regional flights is nothing to write home about. BUT - on my recent flight BAH - DMM, total air time 13 minutes. Right after the boarding, cabin crew walked with the snack basket and water/OJ trays.
I did not expected that. Usually on my 1 hour flights within US of A I hear "Because of short duration of this flight, we will not be serving water"...
That's pathetic.

Like I've said earlier, the only problem that I see with Gulf Air is the terminal. During morning bank, when you arrive at the same time with A330s from CAI, RUH and JED, you can almost kiss goodbye your 1 hour connection window. You have 1000 people, two metal detectors and nothing is organized.
The only difference in the last 8 months that I've noticed with the new terminal, is that the remote stands for the planes moved further towards the beach. Now you can be on the bus for 15 minutes going from your plane to the old terminal.

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