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SCHATC422
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DY ending ORK-PVD?

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:47 pm

Here goes the first route for PVD to lose on DY..... next up EDI and BFS? Those are my guesses.

No exact date, but sometime in October this year according to the article.

Good news for BDL I'd say. Wouldn't surprise me if they move this service up to BOS and start scaling back more at PVD... apparently loads aren't good at PVD on DY.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/norwegi ... rovidence/
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
RL757PVD
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:07 pm

1) PVD and BDL don't compete outside of a small area around New London, CT

2) Theres no room for DY at BOS

3) Lets be honest, small to small transatlantic never made logical sense to begin with, BFS is most certainly next. However, DUB performs well including the off-season and winter

4) Just to be clear, so far its only a seasonal suspension which makes absolute sense, the only market that can make it in the winter is Dublin, which can arguably cover both BFS and ORK https://www.irishtimes.com/business/tra ... -1.3554072
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:17 pm

And here, in post #72, you were talking about the opportunity for Cork because it isn't served from BOS.

viewtopic.php?t=1355897&start=50

3rd-tier Euro cities to 3rd tier U.S. cities never made sense.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
And here, in post #72, you were talking about the opportunity for Cork because it isn't served from BOS.

viewtopic.php?t=1355897&start=50

3rd-tier Euro cities to 3rd tier U.S. cities never made sense.


I wouldn't call PVD a 3rd tier city, but any of the secondary markets really need to be to a major European city in order to work. PVD-DUB/MAN/STN are viable opportunities, whereas BGO BFS ORK are not. EDI is the wildcard since its a decent sized market and not served from BOS.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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shamrock350
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:58 pm

It's becoming seasonal, which was announced months ago.

The article has been removed for misinformation.
 
PVD757
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:59 pm

This is old news. ORK, SNN, and EDI were already switched to summer seasonal when they released the winter schedule months ago. BFS was originally announced as summer only. Summer loads are very good and I highly doubt DY would move any of the 737MAX flights to BOS due to the higher costs there.
 
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spinkid
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:24 am

They have pulled out of BDL completely. This article should be deleted.
 
MAH4546
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:34 am

The first PVD route to go was Bergen, I believe.
a.
 
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TransWorldOne
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:27 am

Does this leave ORK without a transatlantic flight? I always thought DL should make a go of JFK-ORK.
 
PVD757
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:40 am

ORK-PVD is NOT being dropped rather being transitioned to summer seasonal.
 
mcdu
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:23 am

I thought they were going to be adding ORK to SDF, AVL and MEM as one pro NO poster had suggested previously.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:46 am

TransWorldOne wrote:
Does this leave ORK without a transatlantic flight? I always thought DL should make a go of JFK-ORK.


Keep in mind the runway in Cork is rather short and doesn't allow for wide bodies. It has to be a narrow body service.

I'd say it's a logical step for Norwegian to pull out of this route, at least during the winter. Providence isn't the problem, Cork is. Small regional town without connections, not enough demand for transatlantic service. People from Cork could just fly from Dublin, that's a well performing service.
 
stratocruiser
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:16 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
Does this leave ORK without a transatlantic flight? I always thought DL should make a go of JFK-ORK.


Keep in mind the runway in Cork is rather short and doesn't allow for wide bodies. It has to be a narrow body service.

I'd say it's a logical step for Norwegian to pull out of this route, at least during the winter. Providence isn't the problem, Cork is. Small regional town without connections, not enough demand for transatlantic service. People from Cork could just fly from Dublin, that's a well performing service.


Or they could travel the 60 or so miles north to Shannon where there is a year round service to BOS.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:29 am

EI have made BOS seasonal this year. This winter JFK will continue to be operated by the ASL 757s.

DY have also made SNN-PVD seasoanal.
 
Freshside3
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:28 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
Does this leave ORK without a transatlantic flight? I always thought DL should make a go of JFK-ORK.


I do, too. Or AA from PHL/JFK or UA from EWR/IAD..........

Never really made much sense having it go to PVD. Yes, some of the BOS crowd---which was the intended plan----were willing for drive over. But there are some that didn't. Plus they excluded the other big markets for ORK service----NYC, ORD, SFO.

Plus there is the premise of there needs to be a big airport on one end or another. Secondary city to another secondary city just doesn't cut it. PVD to LGW would have much better. Or ORK to the above mentioned airports.
 
Freshside3
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:36 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
Does this leave ORK without a transatlantic flight? I always thought DL should make a go of JFK-ORK.


Keep in mind the runway in Cork is rather short and doesn't allow for wide bodies. It has to be a narrow body service.

I'd say it's a logical step for Norwegian to pull out of this route, at least during the winter. Providence isn't the problem, Cork is. Small regional town without connections, not enough demand for transatlantic service. People from Cork could just fly from Dublin, that's a well performing service.


Cork has some demand, but it is limited to BOS/NYC/SFO/ORD, for the most part. Providence is really the problem; excluding most of those markets didn't help. It really should be on a US carrier that has an east coast hub, feeding those cities.

Yes, the runway is short at ORK, and it would have to be a narrow-body, without question. it is still longer than Bristol's, by at least 300 feet. CO had EWR-BRS for a number of years, by the way.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:21 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
Never really made much sense having it go to PVD.


That's because you're an American, you don't understand the European way of thinking. Europeans are used to flying into alternative airports on LCCs, Ryanair does so all the time and their flights are always full. It's no problem at all. Of course they could fly from Boston instead of Providence, but keep in mind Boston is more expensive and therefor the tickets would also be more expensive. That is very much in the heads of the people using services like these.

Freshside3 wrote:
I do, too. Or AA from PHL/JFK or UA from EWR/IAD..........


Can they be as cheap as Norwegian from Providence using those far bigger and more expensive airports? I don't think so. These flights are all about cheap, cheaper, cheapest. That's the reason they're using Providence. Those big airports may be more convenient, but convenience is not important if you're looking for the lowest price.
 
PVD757
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:05 am

PVD is just over 1 hour to downtown Boston by highway, direct train, or direct bus which makes it a very suitable option to the entire region especially at the fares Norwegian is charging. There are also very easy self connection options to EWR, BWI, DCA, MCO, TPA, CLT, DEN, etc. having the route go from year round to summer seasonal is nothing earth shattering. Heck, EI is dropping BOS-SNN next winter and no one is making a big deal about that. Demand for Ireland to the US in the winter is limited and airlines are responding accordingly to stay profitable.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:18 am

PVD757 wrote:
Heck, EI is dropping BOS-SNN next winter and no one is making a big deal about that.

Only because they've opted to continue JFK through in the winter instead, usually BOS continues and JFK is dropped but this year it's a clean swap.

Also worth noting the Aer Lingus suspension is much shorter, just 11 weeks or so from January to March instead of the full season.
 
ASA
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:26 am

PVD757 wrote:
PVD is just over 1 hour to downtown Boston by highway, direct train, or direct bus which makes it a very suitable option to the entire region especially at the fares Norwegian is charging. There are also very easy self connection options to EWR, BWI, DCA, MCO, TPA, CLT, DEN, etc. having the route go from year round to summer seasonal is nothing earth shattering. Heck, EI is dropping BOS-SNN next winter and no one is making a big deal about that. Demand for Ireland to the US in the winter is limited and airlines are responding accordingly to stay profitable.


Also, for western and southern suburbs of Boston, such as the 495 belt, PVD is almost an equal distance (and less traffic prone) drive compared to BOS. Parking is cheaper too ... AND, curb to gate is so much less painful. So for leisure travelers, it makes great sense to use PVD if the opportunity/connection is there. :thumbsup:
 
mcdu
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:26 am

PVD757 wrote:
PVD is just over 1 hour to downtown Boston by highway, direct train, or direct bus which makes it a very suitable option to the entire region especially at the fares Norwegian is charging. There are also very easy self connection options to EWR, BWI, DCA, MCO, TPA, CLT, DEN, etc. having the route go from year round to summer seasonal is nothing earth shattering. Heck, EI is dropping BOS-SNN next winter and no one is making a big deal about that. Demand for Ireland to the US in the winter is limited and airlines are responding accordingly to stay profitable.


Reason no one makes an issue out of EI is the fact that they are not in such precarious financial shape as NOR. Also if EI is having load shed in the winter that is extra bad news for NOR since there is no demand for them.

Also passengers don’t want to self connect. Way too much risk on a trans Atlantic segment especially with a carrier that has trouble maintaining a schedule. Flight is delayed or canceled and your self connection just became money thrown away.
 
PVD757
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:09 am

According to folks that work these flights, there are plenty of passengers are self connecting on the D8 flights and Kiwi.com guarantees off line connections.
 
Freshside3
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:23 am

mcdu wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
PVD is just over 1 hour to downtown Boston by highway, direct train, or direct bus which makes it a very suitable option to the entire region especially at the fares Norwegian is charging. There are also very easy self connection options to EWR, BWI, DCA, MCO, TPA, CLT, DEN, etc. having the route go from year round to summer seasonal is nothing earth shattering. Heck, EI is dropping BOS-SNN next winter and no one is making a big deal about that. Demand for Ireland to the US in the winter is limited and airlines are responding accordingly to stay profitable.


Reason no one makes an issue out of EI is the fact that they are not in such precarious financial shape as NOR. Also if EI is having load shed in the winter that is extra bad news for NOR since there is no demand for them.

Also passengers don’t want to self connect. Way too much risk on a trans Atlantic segment especially with a carrier that has trouble maintaining a schedule. Flight is delayed or canceled and your self connection just became money thrown away.

Indeed, and many people don't "get" the concept until something bad happens......like a late or cancelled flight, involving a miss.....and then it is the customer who foots the bill, not the airline. They learn the "hard way". If someone MUST do this kind of thing, it may be better booking a hotel in the "connection" city, and have a "planned" day there.

You may be paying more money up front, and paying a bit more, with a "legitimate" connection, but there is also the peace of mind, and the liabilty not being on you. And the further you are from a major hub, the worse it gets. Someone in BIS trying to get to IBZ shouldn't even attempt a "self-connection" option, to cite an extreme example.
 
Freshside3
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:24 am

PVD757 wrote:
According to folks that work these flights, there are plenty of passengers are self connecting on the D8 flights and Kiwi.com guarantees off line connections.

What exactly is Kiwi? Travel agency? Do they provide ground transportation between airports, as part of the deal??
 
PVD757
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:39 am

Kiwi.com is similar to expedia or travelocity hut they include travel insurance that covers rebooking if a connection is missed.
 
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c933103
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:33 am

mcdu wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
PVD is just over 1 hour to downtown Boston by highway, direct train, or direct bus which makes it a very suitable option to the entire region especially at the fares Norwegian is charging. There are also very easy self connection options to EWR, BWI, DCA, MCO, TPA, CLT, DEN, etc. having the route go from year round to summer seasonal is nothing earth shattering. Heck, EI is dropping BOS-SNN next winter and no one is making a big deal about that. Demand for Ireland to the US in the winter is limited and airlines are responding accordingly to stay profitable.


Reason no one makes an issue out of EI is the fact that they are not in such precarious financial shape as NOR. Also if EI is having load shed in the winter that is extra bad news for NOR since there is no demand for them.

Also passengers don’t want to self connect. Way too much risk on a trans Atlantic segment especially with a carrier that has trouble maintaining a schedule. Flight is delayed or canceled and your self connection just became money thrown away.

such precarious financial shape as NOR? Like getting IAG investment?
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Boeing74741R
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:17 am

PVD757 wrote:
Kiwi.com is similar to expedia or travelocity hut they include travel insurance that covers rebooking if a connection is missed.


Is Kiwi.com ATOL protected? I had a quick look on their website and can’t see it. That’s may be a deterrent to some British travellers who are used to booking trips with firms that offer ATOL protection.
 
Andy33
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:47 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
Kiwi.com is similar to expedia or travelocity hut they include travel insurance that covers rebooking if a connection is missed.


Is Kiwi.com ATOL protected? I had a quick look on their website and can’t see it. That’s may be a deterrent to some British travellers who are used to booking trips with firms that offer ATOL protection.

ATOL protection requires that the company selling the travel be UK registered. This can be and often is by way of selling through a UK subsidiary, but Kiwi has no such subsidiary, so no ATOL protection exists. I can see why they wouldn't want a UK subsidiary (or a German one for that matter, or anywhere with fairly energetic consumer protection), because they have a reputation for selling itineraries composed of unlinked flight tickets, often using airlines with no interline agreements between them, without making it clear to the inexperienced purchaser that a self-connection is what they are getting. Not only does this almost invariably lead to the need to re-check hold baggage at the "connecting" airport, it can also lead to denied boarding if the traveller needs a visa to enter the "connecting" country but doesn't have one -even if there's no hold baggage to recheck. This obviously applies to countries/nationalities that don't require visas for through-ticketed transit.

Then, try actually using that insurance linked guarantee at 3am when you find that due to the first flight being late, you've missed the second one. There are reports of people being stuck for 12 hours or more (on routes with frequent flights) while they struggle to get through to Kiwi on the phone and get Kiwi to actually book them on an alternative flight. Or there's the failure to take any action in advance when due to a schedule change the "connection" no longer works. None of this is really a problem on genuinely through-ticketed flights, as airlines have an obligation to resolve issues in these cases.
 
mcdu
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:48 pm

Andy33 wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
Kiwi.com is similar to expedia or travelocity hut they include travel insurance that covers rebooking if a connection is missed.


Is Kiwi.com ATOL protected? I had a quick look on their website and can’t see it. That’s may be a deterrent to some British travellers who are used to booking trips with firms that offer ATOL protection.

ATOL protection requires that the company selling the travel be UK registered. This can be and often is by way of selling through a UK subsidiary, but Kiwi has no such subsidiary, so no ATOL protection exists. I can see why they wouldn't want a UK subsidiary (or a German one for that matter, or anywhere with fairly energetic consumer protection), because they have a reputation for selling itineraries composed of unlinked flight tickets, often using airlines with no interline agreements between them, without making it clear to the inexperienced purchaser that a self-connection is what they are getting. Not only does this almost invariably lead to the need to re-check hold baggage at the "connecting" airport, it can also lead to denied boarding if the traveller needs a visa to enter the "connecting" country but doesn't have one -even if there's no hold baggage to recheck. This obviously applies to countries/nationalities that don't require visas for through-ticketed transit.

Then, try actually using that insurance linked guarantee at 3am when you find that due to the first flight being late, you've missed the second one. There are reports of people being stuck for 12 hours or more (on routes with frequent flights) while they struggle to get through to Kiwi on the phone and get Kiwi to actually book them on an alternative flight. Or there's the failure to take any action in advance when due to a schedule change the "connection" no longer works. None of this is really a problem on genuinely through-ticketed flights, as airlines have an obligation to resolve issues in these cases.


Certainly not something any savvy traveler would ever consider. But PT Barnum’s people will throw their money at something they think is cheap and get burned. Sometime life lessons are expensive.
 
mcdu
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Re: DY ending ORK-PVD

Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:04 pm

c933103 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
PVD is just over 1 hour to downtown Boston by highway, direct train, or direct bus which makes it a very suitable option to the entire region especially at the fares Norwegian is charging. There are also very easy self connection options to EWR, BWI, DCA, MCO, TPA, CLT, DEN, etc. having the route go from year round to summer seasonal is nothing earth shattering. Heck, EI is dropping BOS-SNN next winter and no one is making a big deal about that. Demand for Ireland to the US in the winter is limited and airlines are responding accordingly to stay profitable.


Reason no one makes an issue out of EI is the fact that they are not in such precarious financial shape as NOR. Also if EI is having load shed in the winter that is extra bad news for NOR since there is no demand for them.

Also passengers don’t want to self connect. Way too much risk on a trans Atlantic segment especially with a carrier that has trouble maintaining a schedule. Flight is delayed or canceled and your self connection just became money thrown away.

such precarious financial shape as NOR? Like getting IAG investment?


IAG not investing in NOR. Re read the articles about the buyout effort. It was to takeover and dismantle NOR. A way to kill a competitor cheaply but at this point it may make sense to let nature take its course.

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