What is the story behind the AA F-100 Fleet?

They had one. They don’t anymore.

N766UA wrote:

They had one. They don’t anymore.

Short story short,...

Why Did AA Get F100's? viewtopic.php?t=598109
AA Fokker F100s - Sent Away Too Soon? viewtopic.php?t=1355017
Why Did AA Wait So Long For An F100 Replacement? viewtopic.php?t=588803
American Airlines F-100 Question viewtopic.php?t=220925
What Happened To AA's F100's? viewtopic.php?t=420795
Is There A Buyer For AA's F100 Fleet? viewtopic.php?t=229785
US And AA F-100 Fleets viewtopic.php?t=46801
AA's Fokker 100 Retirement viewtopic.php?t=279221
AA Fokker 100 viewtopic.php?t=102309
Are American's Fokker's Any Good? viewtopic.php?t=83763
AA To Operate Its Last Fokker 100 viewtopic.php?t=271299

N766UA wrote:

They had one. They don’t anymore.

They had 75x. They don't anymore.

Man, I'm not bringing my A-game today. I was sat here wondering what AA needed with a F100 Super Sabre.

I flew PIT-MCI and it seemed quite SLOW. it's the 1st time I seemed tuned into a jets cruise speed.

I'm sure the list Juliuswong has above covers 99% of the topic, but as I recall Fokker was desperate to make a big sale, cut Crandall a deal..and the aircraft did serve a purpose..before today's RJ...it was sort of the RJ of its time. BK of Fokker, the fact that they had some sort of engine issue, developed Hanger Queen virus, and I don't think they ever met the advertised performance specs or fuel consumption specs.


when opportunity struck to ditch them, they were toast in short order.

The F-100's were really nice planes. Extremely quiet - I lived near the Albany Airport (ALB) and observed them for quite a few years. I flew in several and was sad
when AA decided to sell them. They had 2x3 seating which is great - if you are in the 2 side. Glass cockpit (very advanced at the time they were made) - no that
does not improve the pilots' view - ha, ha. All cockpit instruments are on TV screens. USAir/Allegheny also had a fleet. Main reason for dropping them was the
maintenance got out of hand. Fokker went out of business perhaps an important reason for that. The F-100 was a great improvement over the F-28. It seems the
F-50 (?) came out just before the end for Fokker.

For what it's worth, if memory serves me right, they came with the TWA merger and when they left AA some went to the desert and some to a Canadian LCC that went bust... 3 of the "canadian" ones ended up at my previous operator V3 - Carpatair of Romania (and are still flying as far as I know - I left them 7 years ago)

What a neat looking little plane she was.

Many frequent flyers disliked them because they felt tight inside. Overhead bins were smaller and made roller bags a more difficult prospect, and with only 8 first class seats upgrades were hard to come by. In the early 90's AA narrowbodies usually had 12 F seats and if I recall F was expanded on the M80's later so upgrades were scarce on the F100. So many frequent flyers disliked the F100....until the RJ's came

I don't think passenger dislike was instrumental in the F100's leaving AA, but more than a few frequent flyers were not sad to see them go.

djvalume wrote:

For what it's worth, if memory serves me right, they came with the TWA merger and when they left AA some went to the desert and some to a Canadian LCC that went bust... 3 of the "canadian" ones ended up at my previous operator V3 - Carpatair of Romania (and are still flying as far as I know - I left them 7 years ago)

The V3 ones went straight AA... disregard the TWA bit.

Here's one of them https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-f100-11340.htm

Part of the fleet ended up with AV in Colombia who used them for a short time before replace them with A318’s I believe some of them are now flying in Australia

djvalume wrote:

djvalume wrote:

For what it's worth, if memory serves me right, they came with the TWA merger and when they left AA some went to the desert and some to a Canadian LCC that went bust... 3 of the "canadian" ones ended up at my previous operator V3 - Carpatair of Romania (and are still flying as far as I know - I left them 7 years ago)

The V3 ones went straight AA... disregard the TWA bit.

Here's one of them https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-f100-11340.htm

Yeh, they were way pre-TWA.

They were infamous for inadequate airflow parked at the gate in the DFW summer sun. 'Dutch ovens.'

djvalume wrote:

For what it's worth, if memory serves me right, they came with the TWA merger and when they left AA some went to the desert and some to a Canadian LCC that went bust... 3 of the "canadian" ones ended up at my previous operator V3 - Carpatair of Romania (and are still flying as far as I know - I left them 7 years ago)

It was the 717s that came from TWA. TW never had F100s to my knowledge.

Helvetic Airways has operated a total of seven former AA F100:
s/n 11460: operated as HB-JVA from 2003 to 2005 - now with Alliance Airlines in Australia
s/n 11491: operated as HB-JVB from 2004 to 2006 - broken up in 2012
s/n 11501: still operating as HB-JVC for Helvetic Airways
s/n 11498: operated as HB-JVD from 2004 to 2006 - now with IRS Airlines in Nigeria
s/n 11459: still operating as HB-JVE for Helvetic Airways
s/n 11466: still operating as HB-JVF for Helvetic Airways
s/n 11478: still operating as HB-JVG for Helvetic Airways

The other two F100 in 2L's (historic) fleet are former BritAir planes. HB-JVI was broken up in 2016 and HB-JVH ist still active at Helvetic today.

As for the fate of these planes, 2L CEO Tobias Pogorevc recently stated that the company has started looking into concrete replacement plans and that he expects the F100 fleet to be gone by 2020. He mentioned that the company is considering either Embraer (my opinion: most likely E190 / E190E2) or Bombardier (CRK or CSeries) planes to replace the Fokker.

75 were delivered in 1991-1993 about. 75 options were not exercised. 2 frames were lost in ground incidents. They were retired when AA closed its STL hub. IIRC, AA wanted to operate them under the Eagle banner.

I always assumed that some of these went to Midway Airlines when Midway “took over” AA’s RDU hub. I remember Midway saying the maintenance was expensive with parts being hard to come by before beginning to transition to a 737-700 fleet.

Here's the Cliffs Notes version:

If memory serves me right they were bought with the intention of using them on short, frequent hops such as DFW-SAT and DFW-AUS but they were found to be inadequate for the task so they were put on longer routes. I know they routinely flew ORD-SAT. I don't have any numbers to back this up but they seemed to be a more common sight at ORD than DFW.

When AA and TW merged AA stuck with the Fokkers. The lease terms on the 717s were awful due to TWs poor credit. AA and Boeing were in negotiations to make some sort of deal to trade the Fokkers and keep the 717s but AA wanted a term of the agreement to be that Boeing couldn't sell or lease the Fokkers to another US Airline. They didn't want some LCC picking them up cheap and using them to compete against AA like ValuJet did with Delta's old DC9s. That effort fell through. AA detuyned the 717s and kept the Fokkers.

Shortly thereafter an AD was issued for the Fokker's engines. AA determined that it was cost prohibitive to comply with it and retired the fleet. This left AA with a huge gap between the Super 80 and the CRJ-700.

AA might be back in for some once REKKOF takes off.........

I was a little uncomfortable with the exits on the F-100 in case of an emergency. You had the overwing exits around row 11-14 depending on the configuration, but the plane had no exits in the aft, unlike other T tail mainline jets of the time like the DC-9, MD-80, 727.

knope2001 wrote:

Many frequent flyers disliked them because they felt tight inside. Overhead bins were smaller and made roller bags a more difficult prospect, and with only 8 first class seats upgrades were hard to come by. In the early 90's AA narrowbodies usually had 12 F seats and if I recall F was expanded on the M80's later so upgrades were scarce on the F100. So many frequent flyers disliked the F100....until the RJ's came

I don't think passenger dislike was instrumental in the F100's leaving AA, but more than a few frequent flyers were not sad to see them go.

You think the inside was tight? The cargo bins were the worst. At US, we had the F100 and F28, hated working tthe bins. We called the F28s Barbie Jets. To my recollection, the teething issues with the F100s never stopped. Was glad to see the whole lot of them leave.

djvalume wrote:

For what it's worth, if memory serves me right, they came with the TWA merger and when they left AA some went to the desert and some to a Canadian LCC that went bust... 3 of the "canadian" ones ended up at my previous operator V3 - Carpatair of Romania (and are still flying as far as I know - I left them 7 years ago)

Indeed, all the RR Tay Mk 650 powered ones went directly to Michel Leblanc's "JetsGo". (Leblanc had operated F100s earlier, when he owned Intair).

The F100s with less powerful Tay Mk 620 are the ones that must have ended in the desert.

There’s also a story of incidents around the F-100 at TAM in Brazil. A couple of them were sold to a company in Germany that operated flights on behalf of LH Cityline.

The majority of the AA Fokkers are still active today with various airlines. Helvetic and Carpatair have been pointed out. Trade Air is another operator with two ex-AA frames. A vast part of the Austrian Airlines Fokker fleet were all transfers from AA. They have in turn, now been sold to Alliance Aviation in Australia. Also in Australia, QantasLink flies them.

As for the TAM incidents, I have no in depth knowledge about those. But it is interesting that none of the other Fokker operators worldwide have experienced similar incidents.

Martijn

FWIW, I loved flying on the F100s, and I did so very often out of SWF and HPN. AA SWF-ORD, US HPN-PIT, Midway SWF-RDU-Florida. They were quiet and comfortable.

CrimsonNL wrote:

The majority of the AA Fokkers are still active today with various airlines. Helvetic and Carpatair have been pointed out. Trade Air is another operator with two ex-AA frames. A vast part of the Austrian Airlines Fokker fleet were all transfers from AA. They have in turn, now been sold to Alliance Aviation in Australia. Also in Australia, QantasLink flies them.

As for the TAM incidents, I have no in depth knowledge about those. But it is interesting that none of the other Fokker operators worldwide have experienced similar incidents.

Martijn

All I read is how it was a hangar queen... With the proper maintenance these birds are still going strong.

For only having 75 I seemed to be on them a lot. They did seem tight before MRTC! Wish I had been able to try the American Airlines Executive Flagship F100 service from DAL.

Archer wrote:

I lived near the Albany Airport (ALB) and observed them for quite a few years. I flew in several and was sad
when AA decided to sell them.

I also flew them out of Albany, which makes me wonder whether losing these planes had something to do with AA quitting Albany. Not worth upgaging.

knope2001 wrote:

Many frequent flyers disliked them because they felt tight inside. Overhead bins were smaller and made roller bags a more difficult prospect, and with only 8 first class seats upgrades were hard to come by. In the early 90's AA narrowbodies usually had 12 F seats and if I recall F was expanded on the M80's later so upgrades were scarce on the F100. So many frequent flyers disliked the F100....until the RJ's came

I don't think passenger dislike was instrumental in the F100's leaving AA, but more than a few frequent flyers were not sad to see them go.

7 years ago, in March 2011, I flew MLH-ORY and back the following day on Air France (op by Brit Air in both cases) - I was on a two month old CRK outbound, and a 16 year old F100 on the way back. Both flights I was in a window seat in Row 2 or 3.

I found the Fokker much roomier and more comfortable than the Canadair, and, as far as I can remember, it was quieter inside, too.

I flew them regularly between HPN and ORD. I still prefer them to the RJs being used now. They were mainline service. You felt akin to being on an MD-80 and the overhead bins would accept a wider variety of carry-ons.

I know some went to Avianca. I remember flying on one of those with a big AA logo on one of the class division panels. It was in 2006.

Was Fokker pronounced Foker or Focker? I always pronounced it Foker.

djvalume wrote:

For what it's worth, if memory serves me right, they came with the TWA merger and when they left AA some went to the desert and some to a Canadian LCC that went bust... 3 of the "canadian" ones ended up at my previous operator V3 - Carpatair of Romania (and are still flying as far as I know - I left them 7 years ago)

I think you might be referring to the 717 fleet, which was TWA's and was inherited as part of the merger/acquisition by AMR of TWA. The leases on the 717's were very high at the time, because TWA had a poor credit rating, and were therefore returned to lessors.

DeltaXNA wrote:

Was Fokker pronounced Foker or Focker? I always pronounced it Foker.

There's an old joke somewhere about a 747 pilot next in line to land after a Fokker, remarking to ATC "I've waited my entire life to say this- I've got the little Fokker in sight."

So that probably gives you an idea.

BlueberryWheats wrote:

Man, I'm not bringing my A-game today. I was sat here wondering what AA needed with a F100 Super Sabre.

https://www.boeing.com/history/products/f-100-super-sabre.page

The jet fighter was originally powered by a Pratt & Whitney J57-P-7 axial-flow engine. Later models of the F-100 were powered by a Pratt & Whitney J57-P-21A engine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_J57#cite_note-JAWA62-63-8

JT3D/TF33:A turbo-fan derivative of the J57.

[url]
http://www.airlinercafe.com/page.php?id=72[/url]

707-120B
Now this is one heck of a change. Basically, you take a 707-120, and apply nearly every change from the 720 and 720B combined. You end up with a "720B stretch". So to go from 707-120 to 707-120B you do this:
Add wing glove, replace big ventral fin with small one, add flaps inboard of the inboard engines, add flaps outboard of the outboard engines, give it JT3D's, add the stab extensions, remove the #1 and #4 t/c's and give it 720B-style pylons, and you get this:
Max speed M=0.90. Only ordered new by AA and TWA, all others converted from -120's. The last few newly built ones ordered by AA and TWA had the later-style nose-gear doors

So, even more of a 'bad-a**" move - strapped 4 of them, to a 707. Now, not to add salt to the wound, but isn't that what essentially killed the CV990 at AA?

What were the overall niches of the aircraft, at AA? What were the other US operators at the time?

Rajahdhani wrote:

What were the overall niches of the aircraft, at AA? What were the other US operators at the time?

US Air and Midway (the second one).

I have a close friend who has been flying at AA for quite some time. He has flown the 727, 737, F100, and MD80 with them. He always mentions that the F100 was his favorite airliner to fly. He stated that it was extremely nimble and that it was a pilots airplane. He also mentioned that the cockpit was advanced for the time and logically set up. Interesting how mechanic and pilot opinions of an aircraft can be so different!