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TWA302
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Updated: Martinair CV-340 crash in SA (July 2018): final report is out

Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:40 pm

Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
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airkas1
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm

It's a Convair 340 (ZS-BRV) that was acquired by the Aviodrome in Lelystad. It was supposed to depart Wonderboom this Thursday, bound for Lelystad (arriving on July 23). Totally surreal feeling right now.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:45 pm

Do they have a Convair? The tail looks more like a Convair than a DC-3 to me.
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scbriml
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:47 pm

airkas1 wrote:
It's a Convair 340 (ZS-BRV) that twas acquired by the Aviodrome in Lelystad. It was supposed to be flown to Lelystad (arriving on July 23). Totally surreal feeling right now.


Wow, that's unfortunate. But good news that we don't seem to have any fatalities.

Seen by me on both my trips to South Africa while still operated by Rovos.
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TWA302
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:49 pm

 
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TWA302
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Tweet with a video of the departure. Appears to be heavy smoking from one of the engines.

https://twitter.com/_ArriveAlive/status/1016711100606439424
 
newburg1
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:35 pm

On the video, you can hear a loud click or misfire just after rotation. Not enough airspeed to climb for a return to the airfield.
Also, higher than normal smoke from the port engine
 
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airkas1
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:51 pm

A head-on photo of the departure. Indeed looks like trouble with the #1 engine.
https://twitter.com/HankeFourie/status/ ... 3401244672

Edit: he's got some close up photos as well, including one of the cabin (no people visible).
 
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Iemand91
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:01 pm

This is really shocking. Just a couple of days ago I read about this aircraft and the plan of flying it to the Netherlands and one thought that ran through my head was "such a long trip from Africa to the Netherlands is not without any danger, I hope everything goes well".

And now I turned the radio on and I heard about this. Most sad thing is news is reporting of one person dead.

As for the Convair; it's very sad it's lost. It would have been a great addition to the museum and the Dutch Aviation scene.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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TWA302
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:01 pm

 
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Iemand91
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:08 pm

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

The Convair hit a building:

Image
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:21 pm

Surprised anyone lived given that it hit a building.
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Dutchy
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:47 pm

Sad, luckily no one was killed, but 20 injured isn't good, hope all will be well soon, without permanent damage.

Especially sad it was a classic and it was due to come to the Netherlands.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:53 pm

There is 1 fatality and 18 injured, no real details are given on how severe the injuries are, just that they range from light to critical.

http://ewn.co.za/2018/07/10/update-one- ... lane-crash
 
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Iemand91
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:57 am

There are reports of a 2nd fatality; a person that was in the building the Convair hit.
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debonair
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:18 pm

newburg1 wrote:
On the video, you can hear a loud click or misfire just after rotation. Not enough airspeed to climb for a return to the airfield.


If the airspeed was not enough, why wasn't the take-off aborted?! Isn't it possible to operate the plane safe with just one engine?

After several suspensions this year alone by the South African Civil Aviation Authority (SACAA) for Aircraft Maintenance Organisation (AMO) approvals - like CemAir, SA Express - it makes wonder, if this might have been a factor as well...
 
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:56 pm

Well this really sucks.

I flew a plane parked just across from the Convair while they were restoring her up to two weeks ago. Looked inside, had a chat with the F/E who still wanted to join me for a flight, and now he is gone.
Dang it, I walked up and down that aisle, touched the seats and now it's all a wreck.

Sad to think that when I return there, she won't be there. For more than a year she greeted me every time I went flying. They really put in a lot of work to get her back to the air.
CFI/Gr. III, L-382 Loadmaster, ex C-130B Navigator
 
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Aviaphile
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:01 pm

A300 310 319 320 321 332 343 346 380 ATR42 Bae146 707 720 721 722 732 733 734 735 738 741 742 743 744 74D SP 752 762 763 772 1-11400 500 Concorde DC3 DC910 30 50 DC10-30 MD11 Trident 1 2 3 Dash 7 DH6 Do228 328 F27 28 HS 748 LX45 L1011200 Viscount 700 800
 
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SAAFNAV
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:11 pm

debonair wrote:
newburg1 wrote:
On the video, you can hear a loud click or misfire just after rotation. Not enough airspeed to climb for a return to the airfield.


If the airspeed was not enough, why wasn't the take-off aborted?! Isn't it possible to operate the plane safe with just one engine?

After several suspensions this year alone by the South African Civil Aviation Authority (SACAA) for Aircraft Maintenance Organisation (AMO) approvals - like CemAir, SA Express - it makes wonder, if this might have been a factor as well...



If you are past V1, you can't stop and are committed to fly.
When I chatted to the F/E, he told me they will do a couple of proving flights before the ferry, as the plane doesn't really perform well on one engine (he inferred at cruise alt due to the mountains they have to pass), and at max weight she won't even maintain alt.
I for one don't know how her performance compares to modern Part 25 certification, but maybe back then when she was certified her OEI performance was good enough to pass. There are also some reports that the No. 2 engine was giving problems, so maybe that was the difference between a successful emergency landing and the fatal accident.

Have a look at the accident site: It's on the eastern side of the N1 highway, and the plane went in North to South (the runway in use was East to West). I surmise that he tried to get back on one engine, realised he had bigger problems and then turned South to land into that 'open' field just South of the factory. With a little bit more height it might have been a different outcome altogether.

Regarding your statement about CAA: It's a difficult one to answer clearly. Yes, if an operator has repeated infractions, then they should face the music. However, on the other side, CAA is a stumble block to do anything. The simplest authority is a nightmare to get out of them.

The maintenance was done under the auspices of an approved AMO (heck, my plane was signed out by them), and from what I could see (not that it means anything really), a good job was done. The F/E was doing the work, and he flew a lot of radials in the military and afterwards. Since he would fly the plane himself, I reckon he didn't take shortcuts, and he was a pilot too.
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TWA302
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:11 pm

Another video, this time head-on on departure.
https://youtu.be/Zj2J-f7BsGc
 
cpd
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:31 pm

A pair of experienced Qantas pilots were flying it:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/africa/aus ... 4zqy5.html

Fingers crossed all of the survivors will pull through. The wife of one of the pilots was also onboard.
 
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:35 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Another video, this time head-on on departure.
https://youtu.be/Zj2J-f7BsGc

That's a pretty crisp video and you can see and hear the #1 engine lagging a bit? Hopefully it will be of help deteremining the cause.
 
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:09 pm

Video from inside the aircraft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVewcZzOyTk
(includes crash, didn't see any footage that was super shocking, but don't shoot the messenger if there is).
 
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TWA302
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:34 pm

Wow. That is chilling for sure.
Last edited by TWA302 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MD13
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:46 pm

How many Convair 340´s are still in operation?
 
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TWA302
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:48 pm

MD13 wrote:
How many Convair 340´s are still in operation?


Air Chathams still has three variants. That is all that I am aware of! https://www.airchathams.co.nz/about-air-chathams/fleet/convair-580/
 
ubeema
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:32 pm

airkas1 wrote:
Video from inside the aircraft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVewcZzOyTk
(includes crash, didn't see any footage that was super shocking, but don't shoot the messenger if there is).

Amazing footage! Much respect to the guy filming, talking about courage when possibly watching your last moments alive.
 
F27500
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:45 pm

How many more of these "vintage" clunkers need to crash before they stop being permitted to fly with pax on board? I'm all for nostalgia, but this is really not a smart idea.

They're not only putting the people who (granted, willingly) are getting on them, but also those on the ground. Just keep these old birds for static display. Its too risky otherwise.
 
EricAY05
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:43 pm

How do we know this crash did not take place in the USA? Not a single person was yelling "OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOD, OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD" and stating obvious facts like "WE ARE GONNA CRASH!". Amazing how calm everyone remains even after it became obvious that something is wrong.
 
Redwood839
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:13 pm

EricAY05 wrote:
How do we know this crash did not take place in the USA? Not a single person was yelling "OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOD, OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD" and stating obvious facts like "WE ARE GONNA CRASH!". Amazing how calm everyone remains even after it became obvious that something is wrong.


Was thinking the same except for the USA part. Everyone in deed was calm, most I heard was "this is getting very bad".

Very surprised at how calm everyone was and the guy filming that held on to the phone all the way through. I've never been involved in a plane crash or cash crash thankfully, but it looked like when they actually impacted it was over very quick and was done with.

RIP to those that perished, the rest were lucky with an amazing crew.
 
F27500
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:29 pm

Must be because he had an electronic device turned on even though he wasn't supposed to. See? You COULD crash! ;)
 
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:33 pm

F27500 wrote:
How many more of these "vintage" clunkers need to crash before they stop being permitted to fly with pax on board? I'm all for nostalgia, but this is really not a smart idea.

They're not only putting the people who (granted, willingly) are getting on them, but also those on the ground. Just keep these old birds for static display. Its too risky otherwise.


Spoken like the real aviation enthusiast.


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F27500
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:51 pm

EricAY05 wrote:
How do we know this crash did not take place in the USA? Not a single person was yelling "OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOD, OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD" and stating obvious facts like "WE ARE GONNA CRASH!". Amazing how calm everyone remains even after it became obvious that something is wrong.



Dumbest statement in this thread yet. Americans are the only people who would scream in a plane crash?

What do you plan on doing when the plane you're in crashes? Hum "Nearer my god to thee"?
 
Redwood839
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:21 pm

F27500 wrote:
EricAY05 wrote:
What do you plan on doing when the plane you're in crashes? Hum "Nearer my god to thee"?


Hey, I actually asked for this to be played in my funeral. Wouldn't mind humming it along.
 
awthompson
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:24 pm

I cannot understand why the plane flew into the ground and a building like that. Yes the port engine was giving trouble and likely loosing power, maybe failed completely, but there was plenty of speed towards the end, no stall or anything like that. How come I can hear at least one engine increase RPM just before impact, why was there a power reserve not being utilized earlier when most needed? Did the crew get transfixed on dealing with the rough running engine and relapse concentration on flying the plane, then realize they were close to the ground when it was virtually too late? Besides, even with one engine completely out, should this aircraft not have enough power to maintain flying speed. If not, then it should never have been certified to carry passengers at all. And before I get shot down, yes I do fly planes so understand the mechanics and aerodynamics.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:29 pm

Redwood839 wrote:
Very surprised at how calm everyone was and the guy filming that held on to the phone all the way through.


They're probably used to seeing old airplanes crash.
 
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 am

SAAFNAV wrote:
When I chatted to the F/E, he told me they will do a couple of proving flights before the ferry, as the plane doesn't really perform well on one engine (he inferred at cruise alt due to the mountains they have to pass), and at max weight she won't even maintain alt.
I for one don't know how her performance compares to modern Part 25 certification, but maybe back then when she was certified her OEI performance was good enough to pass. There are also some reports that the No. 2 engine was giving problems, so maybe that was the difference between a successful emergency landing and the fatal accident.


That's curious.

As built .. the plane could maintain a reasonable altitude with one engine. Even then that was a requirement. If the plane today could not perform .. I wonder why it was flying with passengers.

One difference is that these days such plains don't have access to the very high octane fuel that was available then. This reduces performance. But still, if it really couldn't climb one one engine it should not have been flying at all.

One possibility is that the pilots didn't get the gear/flaps up in time. I have no knowledge, but I wonder if there was some pilot error to go along with the engine failure.

Wishing everyone involved the best ...
 
jupiter2
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:46 am

There could be a fine line between the engine causing trouble still giving some thrust, thus helping to get back to the airport, or being an immense cause of drag. The rate of descent appeared to increase through the turn towards the airport and still more after that large streak of flame was observed. That flame could've been the complete failure of the engine and at that altitude, with a sudden large increase in drag, the aircraft was doomed. It would appear that the crew may have been trying to get to the clearing just past the building that it hit, if that was the case, they were so close. Still you look at the damage and you wonder how there weren't more fatalities.
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:37 am

kitplane01 wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
When I chatted to the F/E, he told me they will do a couple of proving flights before the ferry, as the plane doesn't really perform well on one engine (he inferred at cruise alt due to the mountains they have to pass), and at max weight she won't even maintain alt.
I for one don't know how her performance compares to modern Part 25 certification, but maybe back then when she was certified her OEI performance was good enough to pass. There are also some reports that the No. 2 engine was giving problems, so maybe that was the difference between a successful emergency landing and the fatal accident.


That's curious.

As built .. the plane could maintain a reasonable altitude with one engine. Even then that was a requirement. If the plane today could not perform .. I wonder why it was flying with passengers.

One difference is that these days such plains don't have access to the very high octane fuel that was available then. This reduces performance. But still, if it really couldn't climb one one engine it should not have been flying at all.

One possibility is that the pilots didn't get the gear/flaps up in time. I have no knowledge, but I wonder if there was some pilot error to go along with the engine failure.

Wishing everyone involved the best ...


As far as I know the fuel part is a big issue today with classic airliners.

This is supposed to be one of the reasons why Lufthansa pulled the plug on the Starliner revival. The performance decrease due to the unavailability of the right aviation gasoline makes a huge operational impact and I'm sure it is also a safety concern.
Happy Landings
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:01 am

I still cannot get my head around the fact that 19 people were allowed to board what is essentially a proving flight on a 65yo Convair...

I am a BIG enthusiast. Would I board a 65yo CV340 on a "PROVING FLIGHT"??? NO way!!!!
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:58 am

oldannyboy wrote:
I still cannot get my head around the fact that 19 people were allowed to board what is essentially a proving flight on a 65yo Convair...

I am a BIG enthusiast. Would I board a 65yo CV340 on a "PROVING FLIGHT"??? NO way!!!!


I've been reading this as 4 crew and 3 of the of the buyer, the Aviodrome Lelystad have been on board (which is a total of 7) and the other 12 have been in the building that has been hit.

19 people on board is indeed strange for a test flight like that.
Happy Landings
 
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longhauler
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:49 pm

What a sad end to a fine airliner. I too find the lack of performance intriguing. As noted above, by all rights the aircraft should have been able to climb away on one engine. A few thoughts though ...

Also as noted above, the performance calculations done in the 1940s were based on 115/145 fuel, no longer available. But depending on the governing body, most regulators require that retesting be done using current fuel and current conditions. I wouild imagine this aircraft would fall under those new restrictions.

After an analysis is performed on the engines, I wonder about the operating engine. Perhaps, it too was failing. The left engine was not shut down and it was not feathered, that may have been for a reason. A dual engine failure or two engines "failing" would result in the profile of this aircraft.

I can't find it right now, but if one does a youtube search on early Convair 240 promotional films, you can find a shot of a 240 taking off with the left engine feathered! Right from the start of the roll ... it is amazing. At the time, Convair had to show how capable the aircraft was, as there was some resistance to such a large aircraft having only two engines!

So, the aircraft can certainly fly on one engine.
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reltney
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:53 pm

Watch the video. Never feathered the bad engine. Look at the displaced aileron. If you are holding the approaite amount of rudder with an engine loss, the control wheel is real close to wings level. . Questions to be asked are.. Why was the engine not secured/feathered? Mechanical reasons or pilot reasons. There are performance graphs for the lower octane fuel used.
As a multi engine instructor and airline pilot/military pilot, these are the obvious first questions based on the evidence of the video.

The convair does really well on one engine. It had a light load with 19 passengers.
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beechnut
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:36 pm

awthompson wrote:
I cannot understand why the plane flew into the ground and a building like that. Yes the port engine was giving trouble and likely loosing power, maybe failed completely, but there was plenty of speed towards the end, no stall or anything like that. How come I can hear at least one engine increase RPM just before impact, why was there a power reserve not being utilized earlier when most needed? Did the crew get transfixed on dealing with the rough running engine and relapse concentration on flying the plane, then realize they were close to the ground when it was virtually too late? Besides, even with one engine completely out, should this aircraft not have enough power to maintain flying speed. If not, then it should never have been certified to carry passengers at all. And before I get shot down, yes I do fly planes so understand the mechanics and aerodynamics.


Two words: "density" and "altitude". Wonderboom airport is 4100 ft above sea level, temps probably around 20C (winter in S. Africa). So density altitude will probably likely be nearly 6000 ft. Piston twins, even old airliners, are fairly marginal at the best of times when an engine fails. Couldn't find much data on the single-engine ceiling of the 340 but did find an article about the 440 that said 10,300 ft, and another that said the 340 was underpowered and wouldn't hold altitude in a turn with only one engine. So any extra drag (such as fully-open cowl flaps), or diminished performance on the remaining engine for whatever reason, is going to be problematic. Remember these old piston twins weren't certified to the same standards as today. So there was very little margine for error.

I love old aircraft too, but there's a reason why flying is so much safer these days.

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SAAFNAV
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:42 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
When I chatted to the F/E, he told me they will do a couple of proving flights before the ferry, as the plane doesn't really perform well on one engine (he inferred at cruise alt due to the mountains they have to pass), and at max weight she won't even maintain alt.
I for one don't know how her performance compares to modern Part 25 certification, but maybe back then when she was certified her OEI performance was good enough to pass. There are also some reports that the No. 2 engine was giving problems, so maybe that was the difference between a successful emergency landing and the fatal accident.


That's curious.

As built .. the plane could maintain a reasonable altitude with one engine. Even then that was a requirement. If the plane today could not perform .. I wonder why it was flying with passengers.

One difference is that these days such plains don't have access to the very high octane fuel that was available then. This reduces performance. But still, if it really couldn't climb one one engine it should not have been flying at all.

One possibility is that the pilots didn't get the gear/flaps up in time. I have no knowledge, but I wonder if there was some pilot error to go along with the engine failure.

Wishing everyone involved the best ...


As far as I know the fuel part is a big issue today with classic airliners.

This is supposed to be one of the reasons why Lufthansa pulled the plug on the Starliner revival. The performance decrease due to the unavailability of the right aviation gasoline makes a huge operational impact and I'm sure it is also a safety concern.



While I realize this info is only marginally better than speculation or hearsay, initial fingers point to a fuel line that burst and started the fire. That in turn failed an oil line that prevented the prop from feathering.

Reading this report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR1404.pdf, the plane has got marginal climb performance at sea-level. At 6 000' DA with a prop that didn't feather they didn't have a chance.

To the person above who said a plane can't fly if it can't fly if the performance doesn't allow a single engine climb: It depends in what role the plane is operated and under what part it is certified.

A Twin-Commanche cannot climb at all with one engine, but still perfectly legal to fly as it is designed under Part 23 and single-engine performance only needs to be demonstrated, even if it is negative.

I don't think fuel was that big of a factor: a couple of Dc-3's and Dc-4's still fly on cargo and luxury charter flights, and they do fine.

I will say one thing for sure: taking a lot (or any) passengers on a 'test' flight or whatever they called it, was not a good idea.
CFI/Gr. III, L-382 Loadmaster, ex C-130B Navigator
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:35 am

SAAFNAV wrote:
To the person above who said a plane can't fly if it can't fly if the performance doesn't allow a single engine climb: It depends in what role the plane is operated and under what part it is certified.

A Twin-Commanche cannot climb at all with one engine, but still perfectly legal to fly as it is designed under Part 23 and single-engine performance only needs to be demonstrated, even if it is negative.



Two thoughts ...

1) A Twin Comanche can climb at 260 ft/min with one engine at gross weight. See https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... ane-review

2) The Part 23 rule is this: Either your twin can climb to requirements or better on one engine, OR your plane must meet the single engine maximum stall speed of 61 kts with flaps down. A Twin Comanche actually meets both sides of the "or".
 
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SAAFNAV
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:32 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
To the person above who said a plane can't fly if it can't fly if the performance doesn't allow a single engine climb: It depends in what role the plane is operated and under what part it is certified.

A Twin-Commanche cannot climb at all with one engine, but still perfectly legal to fly as it is designed under Part 23 and single-engine performance only needs to be demonstrated, even if it is negative.



Two thoughts ...

1) A Twin Comanche can climb at 260 ft/min with one engine at gross weight. See https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... ane-review

2) The Part 23 rule is this: Either your twin can climb to requirements or better on one engine, OR your plane must meet the single engine maximum stall speed of 61 kts with flaps down. A Twin Comanche actually meets both sides of the "or".


Have you flown a Twin Comanche at 8 600' DA? I have done my ME comm test on one and I assure you she can't. If an engine fails, you fly her like a single engine plane, even with half fuel and 2 on-board.
The AOPA stats are based on sea-level, and assumes perfect flying technique as well.

The Convair accident happened at ~5 300' DA. That is a massive difference from sea level.
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Planesmart
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:27 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
One difference is that these days such plains don't have access to the very high octane fuel that was available then. This reduces performance.

I've raced cars in my day, and used avgas, and apart from switching to 100LL from 100/130, there haven't been many changes. The military used a higher octane, but the engines were all civil versions originally approved on 100/130, and from memory that fuel was withdrawn in the late 50's / early 60's.

Even if your race car has a modern ECU which adjusts for octane, they generally can't compensate beyond 100, so still benefits. Avgas ruins cats. The advantage of Avgas is it's produced and stored to higher cleanliness and water standards than other fuels. Time expired or reject avgas usually gets sold for motorsport. When avgas is spot tested, it usually rates above 100/130, whereas car pump fuel is spot on.

Avgas is a great scavenger cleaner (as is diesel), so if the bottom of tanks, and fuel lines are anything less than superbly clean, fuel filters can block quickly.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Martin's Air Charter crash in Pretoria, South Africa

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:36 pm

F27500 wrote:
How many more of these "vintage" clunkers need to crash before they stop being permitted to fly with pax on board? I'm all for nostalgia, but this is really not a smart idea.

They're not only putting the people who (granted, willingly) are getting on them, but also those on the ground. Just keep these old birds for static display. Its too risky otherwise.

There are already enough rules, regulations and barriers to flying old aircraft.

If we want to eliminate risk, and needless loss of life, then no cars except for emergencies, worthwhile social purposes, and commerce. No more shopping malls, drive ins, race tracks, holidays and plane spotting.

Hopefully not in my remaining life time.

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