8herveg
Topic Author
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:25 am

I know, I know - slots at LHR will be an issue. But once the Cancun and Las Vegas flights go, VS will only have 4 flights a day out of LGW. That's less than MAN!

Is there any way - between VS, AF and KL, that VS could find 4 slot pairs at LHR? I know most/all of the VS flights at LGW are O&D flights, so they don't NEED to be at LHR, but given they are struggling/competing against BA, DY, TCX, TUI etc.....they may have the edge over them if they move to the premium airport (LHR) and will have the monopoly on these routes (by airport, not by city). Plus, they'll save money by consolidating their operations under one roof.

Thoughts? Or am I dreaming?!
 
KaribbeanKid
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:16 am

4 flights a day out of LGW? There's still MCO, ANU, UVF, GND, TAB, MBJ, BGI, and HAV from LGW... so that would require more than 4 slot pairs at LHR
 
Themotionman
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:18 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:21 am

So after CUN and LAS go VS will be left with Antigua, Barbados, Grenada, Havana, Las Vegas, Montego Bay, Orlando, Saint Lucia, Tobago

These are all leisure routes that would most probably use up a prime time slot. If VS had prime time slots then they'd use them for the JFKs, SFOs, LAXs, ORDs of the world.
 
8herveg
Topic Author
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:27 am

KaribbeanKid wrote:
4 flights a day out of LGW? There's still MCO, ANU, UVF, GND, TAB, MBJ, BGI, and HAV from LGW... so that would require more than 4 slot pairs at LHR


I did a search to check...

Antigua 3 x weekly
Barbados 7 x weekly
Grenada (same flight as Saint Lucia)
Havana 2 x weekly
Montego Bay 2 x weekly
Orlando 11 x weekly
Saint Lucia 3 x weekly
Tobago (same flight as Antigua)

That makes 28 weekly departures = 4 departures per day?
 
lhrsfosyd
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:57 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:28 am

Even if you find slots you won't find available gates in T3 during the day.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2203
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:59 am

lhrsfosyd wrote:
Even if you find slots you won't find available gates in T3 during the day.

Of course they could move to T4, which the airport wants them to do, as part of the plan to make T4 the home of Skyteam and non-aligned carriers and T3 the OneWorld terminal, but as they've steadfastly refused up to now, I don't think they will.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5135
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:29 am

8herveg wrote:

That's less than MAN!



Maybe MAN is where their future expansion should be. BA doesn't seem much interested.
Where to next? :cool2:
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:22 am

Andy33 wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Even if you find slots you won't find available gates in T3 during the day.

Of course they could move to T4, which the airport wants them to do, as part of the plan to make T4 the home of Skyteam and non-aligned carriers and T3 the OneWorld terminal, but as they've steadfastly refused up to now, I don't think they will.


VS has 20 daily flight from LHR while MH and QR has 8 flight to LHR only
 
Andy33
Posts: 2203
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:19 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Even if you find slots you won't find available gates in T3 during the day.

Of course they could move to T4, which the airport wants them to do, as part of the plan to make T4 the home of Skyteam and non-aligned carriers and T3 the OneWorld terminal, but as they've steadfastly refused up to now, I don't think they will.


VS has 20 daily flight from LHR while MH and QR has 8 flight to LHR only

And?
This was supposed to happen way back when the newly rebuilt Terminal 2 opened and lots of airlines swapped terminals. It isn't something Heathrow made up last week dependant on the most recent airlines to join OneWorld - there's always been enough room in T4 for both VS and DL since the terminal swaps in 2014/2015, indeed DL did operate flights from there for a while.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7389
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:27 pm

My first question would be why move? I assume moving flights from LGW to LHR ads cost. What is the benefit?
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:37 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
lhrsfosyd wrote:
Even if you find slots you won't find available gates in T3 during the day.

Of course they could move to T4, which the airport wants them to do, as part of the plan to make T4 the home of Skyteam and non-aligned carriers and T3 the OneWorld terminal, but as they've steadfastly refused up to now, I don't think they will.


VS has 20 daily flight from LHR while MH and QR has 8 flight to LHR only

VS have 23 daily flights on their own metal, 22 on Sat, with DL having 9.

Now Delta started off in T4 in 2008 but part-moved into T3 before moving out at the end of summer 2016. If and when T3 is toaster-ised (yeah, that's a word) in the proposed rebuild, I would imagine VS/DL will move to a T4, but they have 31 heavy flights per day, 35 if VS LGW moved in. The current relaxed T4 would look more like it's crazy frantic, end of BA days, bussing Hell hole.
 
MapleLeaf789
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:44 pm

8herveg wrote:
KaribbeanKid wrote:
4 flights a day out of LGW? There's still MCO, ANU, UVF, GND, TAB, MBJ, BGI, and HAV from LGW... so that would require more than 4 slot pairs at LHR


I did a search to check...

Antigua 3 x weekly
Barbados 7 x weekly
Grenada (same flight as Saint Lucia)
Havana 2 x weekly
Montego Bay 2 x weekly
Orlando 11 x weekly
Saint Lucia 3 x weekly
Tobago (same flight as Antigua)

That makes 28 weekly departures = 4 departures per day?


Do all of these leave on the same day? Otherwise, 28 weekly / 7 days = 4 flights per day.
Toronto Based

A319/320/321/330/340
B707/727/737/747/767/777/787
BAE146
CRJ200/700
DC8/9/10
DHC8/Q4
E175/195
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 816
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:14 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
My first question would be why move? I assume moving flights from LGW to LHR ads cost. What is the benefit?


I should think that the benefit is obvious: reduced costs over the combined operation.

Yes of course, as you point out, there would be a cost associated with the move itself, but they would only be short-term costs, and once the operations are harmonised, costs would be saved in the long run from it all being one operation. Only one expensive lounge to operate. Less ground equipment needed. Fewer staff needed. Etc. and so forth.

On the other hand, isn't LHR a more expensive airport from which to operate? Meaning, aren't landing fees and staff wages etc. higher at LHR? If so: would the envisioned savings of a combined operation be offset by the increased costs of operating the extra flights at LHR?

But as everyone points out, from where would the slots come? From where would the gates come? Having only recently moved to T3 to co-locate with VS, would DL want to move back to T4?.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:34 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
8herveg wrote:

That's less than MAN!



Maybe MAN is where their future expansion should be. BA doesn't seem much interested.


They are doing just that.

In 2019, VS will increase their capacity at MAN by 20% compeared woth 2018. https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/virgin-at ... sion-14338

This is off the back of a 25% increase in capacity in summer 2017, compared to summer 2016.
https://blog.virginatlantic.com/manches ... -new-york/


There are clear issues with VS's market at MAN. Aircraft is a major one, the B744 is too large for JFK and ATL. But, when the B789 problem is resolved, they can replace 4x B744 with 6xA333. Similar capacity, much more route flaxibility. Seasonal demand to the USA is another. They either need to find a way to smooth out the difference or look to repurpose that capacity in the northern winter (DEL and JNB springs to mind).
 
KaribbeanKid
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:39 pm

The Orlando flights VS15 and VS27 both operate daily (14x weekly minus any ad-hoc cancellations) plus the VS49 which operates 3 times a week in the peak of summer holidays between July 22nd and Aug 29th.

Busiest day for VS from Gatwick (minus LAS & CUN) is Monday with 6 flights; BGI, MCO VS15 & VS27, (VS49 seasonal), Havana and UVF VS89

Both GND and TAB are add-ons with UVF (VS89 AND VS97 respectively), ANU is stand alone.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:52 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
8herveg wrote:

That's less than MAN!



Maybe MAN is where their future expansion should be. BA doesn't seem much interested.


They are doing just that.

In 2019, VS will increase their capacity at MAN by 20% compeared woth 2018. https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/virgin-at ... sion-14338

This is off the back of a 25% increase in capacity in summer 2017, compared to summer 2016.
https://blog.virginatlantic.com/manches ... -new-york/


There are clear issues with VS's market at MAN. Aircraft is a major one, the B744 is too large for JFK and ATL. But, when the B789 problem is resolved, they can replace 4x B744 with 6xA333. Similar capacity, much more route flaxibility. Seasonal demand to the USA is another. They either need to find a way to smooth out the difference or look to repurpose that capacity in the northern winter (DEL and JNB springs to mind).

Are the A333s staying once the A350s start arriving?
 
BAeRJ100
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:49 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:56 pm

Themotionman wrote:
So after CUN and LAS go VS will be left with Antigua, Barbados, Grenada, Havana, Las Vegas, Montego Bay, Orlando, Saint Lucia, Tobago


Erm...?
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A320/321/332/333/346/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
User avatar
Aisak
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:12 pm

Andy33 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
Of course they could move to T4, which the airport wants them to do, as part of the plan to make T4 the home of Skyteam and non-aligned carriers and T3 the OneWorld terminal, but as they've steadfastly refused up to now, I don't think they will.


VS has 20 daily flight from LHR while MH and QR has 8 flight to LHR only

And?
This was supposed to happen way back when the newly rebuilt Terminal 2 opened and lots of airlines swapped terminals. It isn't something Heathrow made up last week dependant on the most recent airlines to join OneWorld - there's always been enough room in T4 for both VS and DL since the terminal swaps in 2014/2015, indeed DL did operate flights from there for a while.


All the LHR alliances allocations is way out of hand at this forum. There is no law forcing these changes. Remember alliance's members come and go so you can write anything on stone regarding terminal's tennants.

Heathrow East (now Terminal 2) was suposed to be the Star Allicance and Virgin Atlantic terminal as it was designed to be capable of handling domestic and ROI flights. BMI was still around back then and was:
    a Star Alliance Member
    the prime feeded for the rest of Star Alliance
    the prime feeded for VS
All the "under one roof" scheme for alliances was just set up as having connecting passengers in just one terminal easies processes and congestion. The airport doesn't have to waste resources moving passengers AND THEIR BAGGAGE from where they land to where they are supposed to be to catch their onward flight.

Also, airlines in alliances tend to share resources. Really scarce resources as space for Business/First and FF Lounges. And quite expensive on CapEx to set up. Having all under one roof reduces the need to have every airline run a dedicated lounge. At least, reduces the number of lounges needed. Also happens, but less, with Check-in, security, connections, transfers, and in general, the way passengers and baggage are handled.

Regarding T2, even though Aer Lingus is unalligned, everybody knew they would be flying from there, and nobody has ever though of forcing them out to T4. Why? Simply because there's [n]nothing to gain from it.[n]

Regarding QR and MH at T4... They run their own lounges there, meaning they have money spent there and probably will not want to spend more if being force into T3. How many passengers and baggage are transfering to/from T3.... Probably not a number high enough to make their life easier there.

Regarding DL at T3.... Quite the same. How many are transfering onto Skyteam and unallinged at T4? Transfers are probably being held at CDG and AMS instead. With their VS-DL Joint venture, it just makes more sense to house DL and VS togherer as they can swap flights overnight and at least you won't find passengers at the wrong terminal.

It's for Heathrow good, and so it has been proved, for Heathrow to have the alliances groups together, but there are some exceptions that cannot be overlloked and have to be adressed. There is simply nothing to gain from setting such things in stone.
 
User avatar
Aisak
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:22 pm

vhtje wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
My first question would be why move? I assume moving flights from LGW to LHR ads cost. What is the benefit?


I should think that the benefit is obvious: reduced costs over the combined operation.

Yes of course, as you point out, there would be a cost associated with the move itself, but they would only be short-term costs, and once the operations are harmonised, costs would be saved in the long run from it all being one operation. Only one expensive lounge to operate. Less ground equipment needed. Fewer staff needed. Etc. and so forth.

On the other hand, isn't LHR a more expensive airport from which to operate? Meaning, aren't landing fees and staff wages etc. higher at LHR? If so: would the envisioned savings of a combined operation be offset by the increased costs of operating the extra flights at LHR?

But as everyone points out, from where would the slots come? From where would the gates come? Having only recently moved to T3 to co-locate with VS, would DL want to move back to T4?.


I guess 2008 is all coming back again. AA, BA, US, NW and DL all weighing the pros and cons of moving LGW flights to LHR. VS is in a situation quite similar to the one AA had. RDU and DFW were at LGW because of Bermuda II and were moved to LHR to close down the LGW station.

I think VS still isnt fully using their whole slot portfolio as some are leased out. This is an income that would cease. In the other hand they would have more fleet flexibility if they move the 4-6 frames out of LGW and close the station. That's a huge pro. But all the money spent in the new North Terminal facilities and the lower costs operating at LGW are huge cons.
 
User avatar
hongkongflyer
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:23 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:37 pm

Hard to believe that they have such a few flights out of London every day
 
Zidane
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:44 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:53 pm

From a competitive stand point, I could see how this move would be advantageous.
Such a move definitely gives their service an edge compared to BA.
 
anstar
Posts: 3094
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:26 pm

Aisak wrote:
vhtje wrote:
But all the money spent in the new North Terminal facilities and the lower costs operating at LGW are huge cons.


I believe the new facilities were paid for by Gatwick Airport as they were the ones who forced the move.
 
3AWM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:44 pm

8herveg wrote:
I did a search to check...

Antigua 3 x weekly
Barbados 7 x weekly
Grenada (same flight as Saint Lucia)
Havana 2 x weekly
Montego Bay 2 x weekly
Orlando 11 x weekly
Saint Lucia 3 x weekly
Tobago (same flight as Antigua)

That makes 28 weekly departures = 4 departures per day?


You could definately see how savings could be made if that happened and they move out of LGW altogether. I could see this schedule reduced to 2 slots at LHR.

Havana & Montego bay dropped, not frequent enough to add to the network and probably not premium enough to demand a good fare.

Orlando reduced to 1 daily, all of the other Caribbean destinations served as a stop after Barbados.
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:56 pm

vhtje wrote:
But as everyone points out, from where would the slots come? From where would the gates come? Having only recently moved to T3 to co-locate with VS, would DL want to move back to T4?.


I can't see this happening at all. It kills any efficient connections between the 2 airlines.
A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 816
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:56 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
vhtje wrote:
But as everyone points out, from where would the slots come? From where would the gates come? Having only recently moved to T3 to co-locate with VS, would DL want to move back to T4?.


I can't see this happening at all. It kills any efficient connections between the 2 airlines.


I meant both VS and DL moving to T4, as presumably T3 couldn't cope with the combined LGW and LHR ops of VS, let alone combined LGW/LHR VS and DL. Sorry, I should have been clearer.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:06 pm

vhtje wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
vhtje wrote:
But as everyone points out, from where would the slots come? From where would the gates come? Having only recently moved to T3 to co-locate with VS, would DL want to move back to T4?.


I can't see this happening at all. It kills any efficient connections between the 2 airlines.


I meant both VS and DL moving to T4, as presumably T3 couldn't cope with the combined LGW and LHR ops of VS, let alone combined LGW/LHR VS and DL. Sorry, I should have been clearer.


Ah I understand, no worries! :) I know LHR wants T3 gone, but I'm not sure how much the development plans will change now the 3rd runway is in the mix. Personally I can't stand T3 when travelling in Economy, there's no windows anywhere, and it feels more like a lifeless shopping center.
A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9
 
Brickell305
Posts: 298
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:12 pm

3AWM wrote:
8herveg wrote:
I did a search to check...

Antigua 3 x weekly
Barbados 7 x weekly
Grenada (same flight as Saint Lucia)
Havana 2 x weekly
Montego Bay 2 x weekly
Orlando 11 x weekly
Saint Lucia 3 x weekly
Tobago (same flight as Antigua)

That makes 28 weekly departures = 4 departures per day?


You could definately see how savings could be made if that happened and they move out of LGW altogether. I could see this schedule reduced to 2 slots at LHR.

Havana & Montego bay dropped, not frequent enough to add to the network and probably not premium enough to demand a good fare.

Orlando reduced to 1 daily, all of the other Caribbean destinations served as a stop after Barbados.

Barbados is a popular destination in its own right. So much so that it’s also flown seasonally out of Heathrow. Those flights have good loads. There’s no way you could fit the demand for the other destinations such as ANU, UVF, etc which also have good loads on one plane.
 
3AWM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:37 pm

As they operate BGI on A330s they could just upguage it if demand is high. There is also no real need to fly the additional leg as an add on as they could just transfer the PAX onto an interisland flight at BGI.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:19 pm

3AWM wrote:
As they operate BGI on A330s they could just upguage it if demand is high. There is also no real need to fly the additional leg as an add on as they could just transfer the PAX onto an interisland flight at BGI.

Except the competition do exactly that so why book with VS in that case?
Btw T3 has some decent spotting views from the gates on Pier 6 which if being unused are opened to allow staff to eat and watch planes, or for the nortth side, anywhere between gates 332-342.
 
3AWM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:09 am

skipness1E wrote:
Except the competition do exactly that so why book with VS in that case?.


If I was SRB I'd say because Virgin have premium product, as I'm not I'd say because it would mean you could fly from Heathrow.

LHR, as far as I know doesn't have any other flights to the Eastern Caribbean and BGI is the main gateway. For plenty of those islands the other option or sometimes the only option is to go to the US to exchange to Europe, Asia or Africa, aside from it being in the wrong direction that creates visa/immigration problems for some of those passengers too.
 
Zidane
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:44 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:58 pm

Perhaps VS could use a daily slot out of LHR for these routes seasonally.
ANU: Wed, Sun
BGI: Tue, Sat
UVF: Thu, Mon
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 559
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Should/could VS move their LGW operations to LHR?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:39 am

MCO is packed to the gills every day, all year, no matter how many flights they run from LGW, so dropping to once daily is just ridiculous talk.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos