How many flights a day does WN have right now?

How many flights a day does WN have?

BreezyIAH wrote:

How many flights a day does WN have?

According to the Baltimore Sun article, Southwest is operating 243 departures a day to 64 cities from BWI.

What is the purpose of this gate at bwi?
Dropped Pin
near 5, MD
https://goo.gl/maps/Uk71sJp5zF12

KICT wrote:

What is the purpose of this gate at bwi?
Dropped Pin
near 5, MD
https://goo.gl/maps/Uk71sJp5zF12

That gate is an international swing gate where assengers can either offload and go to customs if the flight is an international flight or offload and go straight to the terminal if it is domestic. The gate is only used, at the moment, as a backup gate (used for Spirit, Southwest International flights, Delta flight from Cancun).

Years ago it was used for regional aircraft. A set of stairs were used for the pax to enter the jetway.

BWIAirport wrote:

Blimpie wrote:

Ugh, really!? More construction and more Southwest. I*'d love to see some other stuff than the 85% WN flights in and out of there.

While I would as well, we should be pleased BWI is the east coast hub of America's favorite airline. Plus, with any kind of luck, WN's success here proves to other airlines how viable BWI is, and they start adding service. Worth noting that, before this, the last two BWI projects were the D/E connector and Concourse E expansion, neither of which have anything to do with Southwest.

Without WN, BWI would be a wasteland as no other carrier would have a network there that Southwest has.

But are there pavement markings now?

CapitalAvGeek wrote:

Yeah, I think that is for sure a factor in WN and NK’s success at BWI. Frontier has tried to start up many new routes out of IAD but have either had to decrease frequency or cut routes like they did in the 2014-2016 timeframe.

Cost Per Enplanement 2017
DCA: $13.44
BWI: $9.34
iAD: $17.00

This article discusses IAD’s falling costs and includes past cost per enplaned passenger.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ll-448659/

BWI’s past cost per enplaned passenger numbers. (Page 8)
http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/pubs/budgetf ... ration.pdf

I find it amazing how has BWI’s CPE has remained so constant in the past. With all this the construction happening around BWI, I don’t know the the CPE would not go up. IAD’s CPE went up when the Aerotrain system was installed.

Perhaps the reason is that BWI is owned by the State of Maryland, as opposed to DCA/IAD being owned by the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority. I'd venture to guess that MWAA's bureaucracy is a little more unwieldy than Maryland's aviation administration.

CapitalAvGeek wrote:

SFOThinker wrote:

I wonder if BWI's landing fees and operational costs are significantly lower tha DCA and IAD? I suspect this is a factor in WN's expansion and competitive advantage there.

Yeah, I think that is for sure a factor in WN and NK’s success at BWI. Frontier has tried to start up many new routes out of IAD but have either had to decrease frequency or cut routes like they did in the 2014-2016 timeframe.

Cost Per Enplanement 2017
DCA: $13.44
BWI: $9.34
iAD: $17.00

This article discusses IAD’s falling costs and includes past cost per enplaned passenger.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ll-448659/

BWI’s past cost per enplaned passenger numbers. (Page 8)
http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/pubs/budgetf ... ration.pdf

I find it amazing how has BWI’s CPE has remained so constant in the past. With all this the construction happening around BWI, I don’t know the the CPE would not go up. IAD’s CPE went up when the Aerotrain system was installed.

IAD's CPE was even higher before the State of Virginia kicked in millions to help bring it down.

The kind of spending likely why there'e a CPE difference. BWI has built things which can bring in money--garages, rental car station, gate and terminal expansions that include concessions. Maryland has so far avoided building a new runway, due to BWI's main hub tenant flying all mainline aircraft. I've seen a diagram of where a second 10-28 would go on the south end of the property, but so far it apparently hasn't been needed. The people mover that was proposed (I think) during the DC-Baltimore Olympic bid around 2001, was not built. I rarely have to use the buses to the train station, but the last time I did, the wait was short. Buses are much less costly than a people mover. Meanwhile, BWI's traffic has kept growing.

MWAA, however, has built white elephants at IAD, such as a runway that has not been needed, and the $1.5 billion people mover system to replace the moon buggies, when the traffic apparently has not been there to help pay for them. BWI's terminal expansions around its original pier-fingers design don't require extras like a massive underground people mover--which at IAD was excavated and built in the middle of an active complex--just in order to get people to their gates. BWI's small B-C connector, for instance, isn't a big-ticket item.

At IAD, the moon buggies worked just fine. You checked your bag on the second floor, went through security on the second floor, walked to a moon-buggy dock on the second floor, walked into the moon buggy itself, rode a few minutes, and walked off the moon buggy on the concourse second floor and walked to your gate. European airports run passenger vehicles all over their aprons. If IAD was growing gangbusters, it could pay for the stuff they've built, but it isn't.

Jim

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

CapitalAvGeek wrote:

SFOThinker wrote:

I wonder if BWI's landing fees and operational costs are significantly lower tha DCA and IAD? I suspect this is a factor in WN's expansion and competitive advantage there.

Yeah, I think that is for sure a factor in WN and NK’s success at BWI. Frontier has tried to start up many new routes out of IAD but have either had to decrease frequency or cut routes like they did in the 2014-2016 timeframe.

Cost Per Enplanement 2017
DCA: $13.44
BWI: $9.34
iAD: $17.00

This article discusses IAD’s falling costs and includes past cost per enplaned passenger.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ll-448659/

BWI’s past cost per enplaned passenger numbers. (Page 8)
http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/pubs/budgetf ... ration.pdf

I find it amazing how has BWI’s CPE has remained so constant in the past. With all this the construction happening around BWI, I don’t know the the CPE would not go up. IAD’s CPE went up when the Aerotrain system was installed.

IAD's CPE was even higher before the State of Virginia kicked in millions to help bring it down.

The kind of spending likely why there'e a CPE difference. BWI has built things which can bring in money--garages, rental car station, gate and terminal expansions that include concessions. Maryland has so far avoided building a new runway, due to BWI's main hub tenant flying all mainline aircraft. I've seen a diagram of where a second 10-28 would go on the south end of the property, but so far it apparently hasn't been needed. The people mover that was proposed (I think) during the DC-Baltimore Olympic bid around 2001, was not built. I rarely have to use the buses to the train station, but the last time I did, the wait was short. Buses are much less costly than a people mover. Meanwhile, BWI's traffic has kept growing.

MWAA, however, has built white elephants at IAD, such as a runway that has not been needed, and the $1.5 billion people mover system to replace the moon buggies, when the traffic apparently has not been there to help pay for them. BWI's terminal expansions around its original pier-fingers design don't require extras like a massive underground people mover--which at IAD was excavated and built in the middle of an active complex--just in order to get people to their gates. BWI's small B-C connector, for instance, isn't a big-ticket item.

At IAD, the moon buggies worked just fine. You checked your bag on the second floor, went through security on the second floor, walked to a moon-buggy dock on the second floor, walked into the moon buggy itself, rode a few minutes, and walked off the moon buggy on the concourse second floor and walked to your gate. European airports run passenger vehicles all over their aprons. If IAD was growing gangbusters, it could pay for the stuff they've built, but it isn't.

Jim

Agreed. BWI has also done a good job of avoiding “Field of Dreams syndrome” (“if you build it, they will come”) and sticking to what the airport needs. The B-C sterile connector is a great example. They could have put 10 more gates on A (not unlike the current proposal) but took advantage of existing underutilized infraatructure first. Even the international terminal, while still a great place to get a quick Global Entry interview, isn’t such a white elephant anymore.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

CapitalAvGeek wrote:

SFOThinker wrote:

I wonder if BWI's landing fees and operational costs are significantly lower tha DCA and IAD? I suspect this is a factor in WN's expansion and competitive advantage there.

Yeah, I think that is for sure a factor in WN and NK’s success at BWI. Frontier has tried to start up many new routes out of IAD but have either had to decrease frequency or cut routes like they did in the 2014-2016 timeframe.

Cost Per Enplanement 2017
DCA: $13.44
BWI: $9.34
iAD: $17.00

This article discusses IAD’s falling costs and includes past cost per enplaned passenger.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ll-448659/

BWI’s past cost per enplaned passenger numbers. (Page 8)
http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/pubs/budgetf ... ration.pdf

I find it amazing how has BWI’s CPE has remained so constant in the past. With all this the construction happening around BWI, I don’t know the the CPE would not go up. IAD’s CPE went up when the Aerotrain system was installed.

IAD's CPE was even higher before the State of Virginia kicked in millions to help bring it down.

The kind of spending likely why there'e a CPE difference. BWI has built things which can bring in money--garages, rental car station, gate and terminal expansions that include concessions. Maryland has so far avoided building a new runway, due to BWI's main hub tenant flying all mainline aircraft. I've seen a diagram of where a second 10-28 would go on the south end of the property, but so far it apparently hasn't been needed. The people mover that was proposed (I think) during the DC-Baltimore Olympic bid around 2001, was not built. I rarely have to use the buses to the train station, but the last time I did, the wait was short. Buses are much less costly than a people mover. Meanwhile, BWI's traffic has kept growing.

MWAA, however, has built white elephants at IAD, such as a runway that has not been needed, and the $1.5 billion people mover system to replace the moon buggies, when the traffic apparently has not been there to help pay for them. BWI's terminal expansions around its original pier-fingers design don't require extras like a massive underground people mover--which at IAD was excavated and built in the middle of an active complex--just in order to get people to their gates. BWI's small B-C connector, for instance, isn't a big-ticket item.

At IAD, the moon buggies worked just fine. You checked your bag on the second floor, went through security on the second floor, walked to a moon-buggy dock on the second floor, walked into the moon buggy itself, rode a few minutes, and walked off the moon buggy on the concourse second floor and walked to your gate. European airports run passenger vehicles all over their aprons. If IAD was growing gangbusters, it could pay for the stuff they've built, but it isn't.

Jim

IAD certainly hasn’t made all of the right calls in their capital projects, but you cannot assert with a straight face that their old system was working just fine. It was not, and there was a need for a change.

blockski wrote:

IAD certainly hasn’t made all of the right calls in their capital projects, but you cannot assert with a straight face that their old system was working just fine. It was not, and there was a need for a change.

When I used the old system, I found it extremely convenient. All you did was walk short distances, and never had to go up or down.

IAD did need significantly more security space, which could have been provided by expanding back around the old IAD tower on either side. Put the moon buggy docks on the back of the expansion space, and away you go. If IAD had been growing gangbusters, which it wasn't, maybe the gargantuan expense of the 'U' shaped people mover and digging an underground cavern for security could have been justified.

IAD did not have the numbers to justify such huge capital expense. Proper training and apron management can ensure that people movers at an uncongested airport move fine. I genuinely do not see where IAD needed such a ridiculously expensive people-moving system. And what on earth were they thinking putting the C station way beyond the concourse? Did they seriously think UA was going to build a gleaming new C-D anytime soon?

Jim

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

B
I wish IAD weren't frigging "Washington Mirabel," or I would go to spot sometimes, given the fantastic variety of international heavies there nowadays.

This is such a tired take. I swear the people that say this haven't actually been to IAD recently. 23 million passengers last year does not make it a ghost town and traffic is up about 5% this year. As someone who lives in the flight path of the airport, there are plenty of planes taking off going in and out of IAD, and they are not just international heavies. United is growing again at the airport and costs are dropping rapidly. It's sad that people can't talk about an airport in the DC area without slamming Dulles.

WN has definitely turned BWI into a powerhouse, which is good for the region. It's a huge area with a lot of people, so having 3 options is great for travelers.

msp747 wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

B
I wish IAD weren't frigging "Washington Mirabel," or I would go to spot sometimes, given the fantastic variety of international heavies there nowadays.

This is such a tired take. I swear the people that say this haven't actually been to IAD recently. 23 million passengers last year does not make it a ghost town and traffic is up about 5% this year. As someone who lives in the flight path of the airport, there are plenty of planes taking off going in and out of IAD, and they are not just international heavies. United is growing again at the airport and costs are dropping rapidly. It's sad that people can't talk about an airport in the DC area without slamming Dulles.

WN has definitely turned BWI into a powerhouse, which is good for the region. It's a huge area with a lot of people, so having 3 options is great for travelers.

I never said what you quoted there..please fix your post.

msp747 wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

I wish IAD weren't frigging "Washington Mirabel," or I would go to spot sometimes, given the fantastic variety of international heavies there nowadays.

This is such a tired take. I swear the people that say this haven't actually been to IAD recently. 23 million passengers last year does not make it a ghost town and traffic is up about 5% this year. As someone who lives in the flight path of the airport, there are plenty of planes taking off going in and out of IAD, and they are not just international heavies. United is growing again at the airport and costs are dropping rapidly. It's sad that people can't talk about an airport in the DC area without slamming Dulles.

WN has definitely turned BWI into a powerhouse, which is good for the region. It's a huge area with a lot of people, so having 3 options is great for travelers.[/quote]

izbtmnhd wrote:

msp747 wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

This is such a tired take. I swear the people that say this haven't actually been to IAD recently. 23 million passengers last year does not make it a ghost town and traffic is up about 5% this year. As someone who lives in the flight path of the airport, there are plenty of planes taking off going in and out of IAD, and they are not just international heavies. United is growing again at the airport and costs are dropping rapidly. It's sad that people can't talk about an airport in the DC area without slamming Dulles.

WN has definitely turned BWI into a powerhouse, which is good for the region. It's a huge area with a lot of people, so having 3 options is great for travelers.

I never said what you quoted there..please fix your post.

I have no idea why it did that. It is fixed.

msp747 wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

msp747 wrote:

This is such a tired take. I swear the people that say this haven't actually been to IAD recently. 23 million passengers last year does not make it a ghost town and traffic is up about 5% this year. As someone who lives in the flight path of the airport, there are plenty of planes taking off going in and out of IAD, and they are not just international heavies. United is growing again at the airport and costs are dropping rapidly. It's sad that people can't talk about an airport in the DC area without slamming Dulles.

WN has definitely turned BWI into a powerhouse, which is good for the region. It's a huge area with a lot of people, so having 3 options is great for travelers.

I never said what you quoted there..please fix your post.

I have no idea why it did that. It is fixed.

Thanks!

Could BWI ever be a US3 hub or focus city?

[/quote]BWI-West Coast has been on a huge upswing in the last few years. With NK pulling out of BWI-OAK in October, that opens the door for BWI-SFO, and I'm positive (based off 6 daily BWI-LAX flights on 4 airlines) there would be sufficient support for BWI-BUR/ONT.[/quote]

I cannot find the other 2 airlines who fly LAX-BWI (non-stop) I see only WN and UA. Do you know the other two?

Thx

WW

wwtraveler99 wrote:

I cannot find the other 2 airlines who fly LAX-BWI (non-stop) I see only WN and UA. Do you know the other two?

AS and NK also serve LAX nonstop from BWI in addition to WN and UA.

BreezyIAH wrote:

Could BWI ever be a US3 hub or focus city?

AA - To close to PHL and DCA
UA - To close to IAD.
DL - Would need to go to war with WN domestically. Better expansion options at existing nearby focus cities/hubs (BOS, JFK-LGA/RDU). Not to mention DL has a decent presence at DCA as well.

So, no.

izbtmnhd wrote:

BreezyIAH wrote:

Could BWI ever be a US3 hub or focus city?

AA - To close to PHL and DCA
UA - To close to IAD.
DL - Would need to go to war with WN domestically. Better expansion options at existing nearby focus cities/hubs (BOS, JFK-LGA/RDU). Not to mention DL has a decent presence at DCA as well.

So, no.

There is no need for AA to have a hub or focus city at BWI since AA already has nonstop service from DCA to its hubs and most of the within-DCA perimeter destinations that WN serves nonstop from BWI. The same could also be said for UA since UA already has nonstop service from IAD to most of the destinations that WN serves nonstop from BWI.

I also agree that DL is unlikely to ever have a hub or focus city at BWI. DL can already connect passengers to the East Coast through its ATL, DTW, and LGA hubs. DL also already has nonstop service out of DCA to ATL, CVG, DTW, LEX, LAX, MSN, MSP, LGA, JFK, OMA, MCO, RDU, and SLC, and a few of these routes are point-to-point nonstop routes to destinations that aren't DL hubs or focus cities.

msp747 wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

B
I wish IAD weren't frigging "Washington Mirabel," or I would go to spot sometimes, given the fantastic variety of international heavies there nowadays.

This is such a tired take. I swear the people that say this haven't actually been to IAD recently. 23 million passengers last year does not make it a ghost town and traffic is up about 5% this year. As someone who lives in the flight path of the airport, there are plenty of planes taking off going in and out of IAD, and they are not just international heavies. United is growing again at the airport and costs are dropping rapidly. It's sad that people can't talk about an airport in the DC area without slamming Dulles. WN has definitely turned BWI into a powerhouse, which is good for the region. It's a huge area with a lot of people, so having 3 options is great for travelers.

It's simply fact that the Federal government made a mistake choosing to site IAD so far out, hence the 'Washington Mirabel' reference. MWAA racked up unwise debt that the airport could not service for lower CPE. With Virginia pitching in, and MWAA getting the airlines to sign on to taking money from DCA to pay debt at IAD, costs will certainly drop. I never said at any point that Dulles is a ghost town. Maybe you misunderstood my reference to YMX's distance?

It would be good for United's connecting passengers if UA moves more connecting traffic from EWR to IAD, with its ample runway and terminal space. If traffic continues to grow, both international and domestic, that would help reduce CPE even more. Maybe IAD will become something like DEN--where a once-high CPE got whittled down, and the airport became cost-competitive. Unless something changes very radically about the local economy, NOVA should keep growing out past IAD and keep gradually building up closer-in catchment as well.

In any event, it is definitely good for an area with the size and traffic of the DMV area to have three options.

Jim

The only gripe I have is that BWI is the second furthest of the three DC airports from me, but it's the best of the three.

I like that DCA is the closest to me, but dislike that their terminals have poor dining choices. At BWI I always stop at Chipotle and get Starbucks before boarding my flight.

And suffice it to say that I'll avoid IAD if I can.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

msp747 wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

This is such a tired take. I swear the people that say this haven't actually been to IAD recently. 23 million passengers last year does not make it a ghost town and traffic is up about 5% this year. As someone who lives in the flight path of the airport, there are plenty of planes taking off going in and out of IAD, and they are not just international heavies. United is growing again at the airport and costs are dropping rapidly. It's sad that people can't talk about an airport in the DC area without slamming Dulles. WN has definitely turned BWI into a powerhouse, which is good for the region. It's a huge area with a lot of people, so having 3 options is great for travelers.

It's simply fact that the Federal government made a mistake choosing to site IAD so far out, hence the 'Washington Mirabel' reference. MWAA racked up unwise debt that the airport could not service for lower CPE. With Virginia pitching in, and MWAA getting the airlines to sign on to taking money from DCA to pay debt at IAD, costs will certainly drop. I never said at any point that Dulles is a ghost town. Maybe you misunderstood my reference to YMX's distance?

It would be good for United's connecting passengers if UA moves more connecting traffic from EWR to IAD, with its ample runway and terminal space. If traffic continues to grow, both international and domestic, that would help reduce CPE even more. Maybe IAD will become something like DEN--where a once-high CPE got whittled down, and the airport became cost-competitive. Unless something changes very radically about the local economy, NOVA should keep growing out past IAD and keep gradually building up closer-in catchment as well.

In any event, it is definitely good for an area with the size and traffic of the DMV area to have three options.

Jim

I did misunderstand the reference. It's a fair point that you raise though. If the Feds were going to put it there, they should have shut DCA down then (before it was so popular) and built a train linking downtown to IAD with no stops. And I wish MWAA had skipped the 4th runway and Z gates and instead built a new C/D concourse. I like the Aerotrain though and think it was necessary, but don't want to derail the thread fighting about that.

BWI has definitely stepped up their game to improve their international terminal, so I'm curious if they will have success landing a few more established international carriers. As you mentioned before, the number of international birds makes for great plane spotting at IAD.

BWIAirport wrote:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-md-bwi-concourse-expansion-20180710-story.html

Southwest is encouraging the state of Maryland to approve a $60M expansion to BWI's Concourse A, which would add 5 new gates and be constructed between January 2019 and July 2020. Immediately following completion, BWI and Southwest will temporarily close the 5 gates on the A/B Connector to revamp the "outdated" baggage handling system.

Yet another expansion for BWI, which has seemingly been under construction for the last 15 years. The expansion to international Concourse E is set to finish up this summer.

So the expansion would be to the left of this pic...and these 5 gates in the middle will close? What's the expansion to E for? Looks dead over there.

WOW...I remember when Concourse A was 3 UA gates

727LOVER wrote:

BWIAirport wrote:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-md-bwi-concourse-expansion-20180710-story.html

Southwest is encouraging the state of Maryland to approve a $60M expansion to BWI's Concourse A, which would add 5 new gates and be constructed between January 2019 and July 2020. Immediately following completion, BWI and Southwest will temporarily close the 5 gates on the A/B Connector to revamp the "outdated" baggage handling system.

Yet another expansion for BWI, which has seemingly been under construction for the last 15 years. The expansion to international Concourse E is set to finish up this summer.

So the expansion would be to the left of this pic...and these 5 gates in the middle will close? What's the expansion to E for? Looks dead over there.

WOW...I remember when Concourse A was 3 UA gates

The five gates are added onto the existing concourse (it expands out). I believe it is justified. At its peak, there is a British Airways 787, Condor 767, Wow A321, and Icelandair 757, along with some international Southwest arrivals. BWI officials are very optimistic of further international service expansion.

Quoting BWIAirport (Reply # 7), " . . . America's favorite airline."

no, they are not.

and quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply # 60), "At IAD, the moon buggies worked just fine."

moon buggies. I believe they are called "mobile lounges."

e38

BWIAirport wrote:

727LOVER wrote:

BWIAirport wrote:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-md-bwi-concourse-expansion-20180710-story.html

Southwest is encouraging the state of Maryland to approve a $60M expansion to BWI's Concourse A, which would add 5 new gates and be constructed between January 2019 and July 2020. Immediately following completion, BWI and Southwest will temporarily close the 5 gates on the A/B Connector to revamp the "outdated" baggage handling system.

Yet another expansion for BWI, which has seemingly been under construction for the last 15 years. The expansion to international Concourse E is set to finish up this summer.

So the expansion would be to the left of this pic...and these 5 gates in the middle will close? What's the expansion to E for? Looks dead over there.

WOW...I remember when Concourse A was 3 UA gates

The five gates are added onto the existing concourse (it expands out). I believe it is justified. At its peak, there is a British Airways 787, Condor 767, Wow A321, and Icelandair 757, along with some international Southwest arrivals. BWI officials are very optimistic of further international service expansion.

Also Spirit international arrivals and some seasonal charters.

shaneam12 wrote:

KICT wrote:

What is the purpose of this gate at bwi?
Dropped Pin
near 5, MD
https://goo.gl/maps/Uk71sJp5zF12

That gate is an international swing gate where assengers can either offload and go to customs if the flight is an international flight or offload and go straight to the terminal if it is domestic. The gate is only used, at the moment, as a backup gate (used for Spirit, Southwest International flights, Delta flight from Cancun).

I thought only D1, D3, and D5 were the swing style gates. The gate in the question looks like the old E4 before the D-E connector was constructed. Whatever it's meant to be now (E2 or E4) it showed up as a serviceable gate in BWI's planning docs:

http://acconline.org/documents/BWI%20Presentation.pdf

e38 wrote:

moon buggies. I believe they are called "mobile lounges."
e38

Moon buggies is a popular nickname at this site. Mobile lounges is the vehicles' regular name.

Jim

msp747 wrote:

I did misunderstand the reference. It's a fair point that you raise though. If the Feds were going to put it there, they should have shut DCA down then (before it was so popular) and built a train linking downtown to IAD with no stops. And I wish MWAA had skipped the 4th runway and Z gates and instead built a new C/D concourse. I like the Aerotrain though and think it was necessary, but don't want to derail the thread fighting about that.BWI has definitely stepped up their game to improve their international terminal, so I'm curious if they will have success landing a few more established international carriers. As you mentioned before, the number of international birds makes for great plane spotting at IAD.

One thing I have to keep in mind discussing the subject is that my frustration over my longtime home-area's airport history of unfortunate decisions doesn't change where things are now. In short, as I understand it:

1) DCA was built on reclaimed land by downtown in the Potomac. So its expansion potential was going to be tightly limited, especially once jets came online.
2) Feds decide to build an international airport for DC, which is growing as a metro area, instead of continuing to rely upon BWI to handle DC's international traffic. Here's where the big mistake was made. What I've read is that IAD was going to be sited in Burke, a reasonable distance from downtown that would have made closing DCA and consolidating the DMV's air service at one airport a political possibility.
3) But even in those pre-TV-news-culture days, when governments could pretty much build infrastructure at will, incredibly, the Feds bow to NIMBY resistance in already-populous region of the site, and do not choose a similarly-reasonable location.
4) The Feds choose a site all the way out in.....Chantilly. Guarantees that not a single airline flight that does not have to be at IAD will go there, in the early decades when the DMV's international traffic was minimal, and transcon was there but not significant. *Nobody* who does not have to go to IAD, does.
5) DCA continues to be the main airport as DC grows into a world city, and Congress wouldn't for a minute allow it to be closed. Why should they? When Allegheny DC-9's and Delta 727's and Eastern L-188 shuttles to LGA and BOS (downtown airports themselves) can easily land there, and DCA can easily handle the traffic? Not even 9/11 leads to serious consideration of closing DCA. I for one would certainly oppose it.
6. IAD grows slowly, according to its location and accidents of history.

Transportation out to IAD was indeed not planned well. The FAA (operators of IAD and DCA before MWAA came online in 1987) did not get land rights-of way to run commuter trains out to IAD (imagine a VRE IAD line, like BWI's MARC connection). So, when somebody gets around to it after decades, all you can do is build a Metro line because there's no feasible way to get commuter trains to the 267-66 interchange and the Dulles rail access land. And because the Toll Road builders included land in the middle for only two tracks anyway, you couldn't build both a VRE line and Metro.

It does surprise me that more Montgomery County people don't seem to use BWI, even with the Intercounty Connector built. Having to use the congested American Legion bridge to get to IAD doesn't seem to stop them from going there. Does IAD's much higher volume of nonstops make its fares more competitive?

Jim

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

It does surprise me that more Montgomery County people don't seem to use BWI, even with the Intercounty Connector built. Having to use the congested American Legion bridge to get to IAD doesn't seem to stop them from going there. Does IAD's much higher volume of nonstops make its fares more competitive?

There are so many more international carriers at IAD. Anecdotally, a family member from Howard County (even closer to BWI) heads out to India often, and almost always finds a better fare from IAD, than being limited only to BA's BWI-LHR flight and connecting in LHR. Ditto with EWR having more nonstops/seats internationally than PHL, and one can then find more competitive fares out of the airport with more international service.

WN's growth at BWI is also directly correlated to the growth of the WAS market. Lastly, it is interesting as of a month ago, I saw myBWI advertising in Chester/Delaware (PA) counties on highway billboards, poaching PHL customers. I gotta say that's that pretty far up north, and within 30 minutes of PHL.

phluser wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

...................
Lastly, it is interesting as of a month ago, I saw myBWI advertising in Chester/Delaware (PA) counties on highway billboards, poaching PHL customers. I gotta say that's that pretty far up north, and within 30 minutes of PHL.

They've done that advertising for at least the last 10 years, as well as periodically in various PA newspapers.

acentauri--if you could, please fix your post, as it makes it appear that I said something actually said by phluser.

It would certainly be plausible that IAD's much greater selection of international nonstops would be a factor. It seems that BWI may both benefit from (WN) and suffer from (international competition at IAD) from its proximity to the DC area.

Jim

Unfortunately I don't see a big robust of growth coming from these gate additions.
A growing trend at WN their adding gates at most of their major cities. This is mainly due to the reduction turn times with the ever growing fleet of 800's and MAX8. With the addition of the larger 737 they went from 1.75 turns a Hour to 1.2 a Hour.

Hopefully if WN has Transatlantic dreams it will add the 797 in the future because as Norwegian learning the hard way the MAX8 is just not enough.

Flyguy

acentauri wrote:

phluser wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

...................
Lastly, it is interesting as of a month ago, I saw myBWI advertising in Chester/Delaware (PA) counties on highway billboards, poaching PHL customers. I gotta say that's that pretty far up north, and within 30 minutes of PHL.

They've done that advertising for at least the last 10 years, as well as periodically in various PA newspapers.

According to the Southwest Airlines city fact sheet for PHL, which can be found at https://www.swamedia.com/media_storage/city_fact_sheets/PHL.pdf, Southwest currently is still hanging onto 8 gates at PHL, even though WN currently only does 23 flights a day out of PHL. WN does have more than enough room to expand at PHL if WN is actually hanging onto 8 gates at PHL.

Why is myBWI advertising in Chester/Delaware counties in Pennsylvania if PHL is much closer to Chester and Delaware counties than BWI is and if WN, NK, B6, AA, UA, and DL all already serve PHL? G4 is the only domestic airline serving BWI that isn't already at PHL.

WN is bringing back PHL-HOU nonstop service on a seasonal basis this fall, and WN also considered bringing back PHL-PIT nonstop service 3 years ago. In addition, WN could add nonstop service to AUS, MCI, LAX, MKE, MSY, OAK, and SAN out of PHL in order to get more Delaware Valley customers to use PHL instead of BWI.

BWIAirport wrote:

jplatts wrote:

While WN already serves most of its domestic destinations nonstop from BWI, WN does have opportunities to add nonstop service to BUR, OMA, ONT, RNO, SNA, SFO, TUS, and TUL from BWI. WN also has opportunities to bring back BWI-GSP and BWI-LIT nonstop service.

Will WN add any new domestic nonstop routes out of BWI? Will WN bring back BWI-GSP and/or BWI-LIT nonstop service?

BWI-West Coast has been on a huge upswing in the last few years. With NK pulling out of BWI-OAK in October, that opens the door for BWI-SFO, and I'm positive (based off 6 daily BWI-LAX flights on 4 airlines) there would be sufficient support for BWI-BUR/ONT.

I wasn’t aware there were 4 airlines on the LAX-BWI route. I can only find WN and UA. Who are the other two carriers?


WW

wwtraveler99 wrote:

I wasn’t aware there were 4 airlines on the LAX-BWI route. I can only find WN and UA. Who are the other two carriers?

WN, UA, AS, and NK all serve LAX nonstop from BWI, and this question was already answered at https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20561803#p20558105.

acentauri wrote:

They've done that advertising for at least the last 10 years, as well as periodically in various PA newspapers.

I don't know why you emphasized at least like this should be common sense. I used to drive on 322/202 into Exton and never saw that. It's BWI advertising in another region over 80 miles away which is a unique sighting.

jplatts wrote:

Why is myBWI advertising in Chester/Delaware counties in Pennsylvania if PHL is much closer to Chester and Delaware counties than BWI is and if WN, NK, B6, AA, UA, and DL all already serve PHL? G4 is the only domestic airline serving BWI that isn't already at PHL.

Probably to be an alternative airport for this area, with the low fares out of BWI. There is better service to a few markets like SAT as well. Three nonstops on BWI-SAT (7/31) from WN vs one of of PHL from AA- the one where AA is charging a premium fare ($540 one-way) for the PHL pax to use the nonstop. It's worth to check BWI out, even considering the tolls and drive down to BWI, if one is price sensitive and flying to Texas (DAL, HOU, SAT, AUS), Southern California, or a short hauls (like BUF, CLE), where AA will likely have a higher fare for a nonstop.

You can take Amtrak right to BWI*, too.

*Yes, I know you have to take a shuttle between BWI the airport and BWI the Amtrak station.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

It does surprise me that more Montgomery County people don't seem to use BWI, even with the Intercounty Connector built. Having to use the congested American Legion bridge to get to IAD doesn't seem to stop them from going there. Does IAD's much higher volume of nonstops make its fares more competitive?

Jim

Montgomery County is a big place. The Inter-County connector doesn't do anything to improve access to BWI for someone living in, say, Bethesda.

Even for someone in Rockville, the ICC made the travel time to BWI shorter, but it's still further away than IAD (traffic can be the wild card of course). Just some quick google mapping - Rockville to IAD is 31 minutes and 26.4 miles; Rockville to BWI is 48 minutes and 36 miles via the ICC, which is shorter than the 40+ miles via the Beltway.

So, yeah, that helps - but the airports still are where they are.

Plus, the nature of the market for both airports is so different. If you're looking for a wide range of international flights, then IAD is going to be your best bet for something direct. DCA will have connecting opportunities. And BWI is probably last due to WN's lack of partnerships with international carriers. If you're flying domestically, that's different; and if you're flying domestically within the DCA perimeter, that's different yet again.

As for BWI's relative lack of international routes, it's true that IAD's ground access leaves a lot to be desired - but it still has some major advantages over BWI for serving DC. For one, even though it's far from DC, it's still closer than BWI is by quite a bit (From 14th and K St NW to BWI: 37.6 miles. To IAD: 26.6 miles). And as imperfect as the Dulles Access Road is, it does offer a speedy and direct route between the airport and the Beltway.

The closer location made it the first choice for international carriers serving DC; which was in turn a big reason for UA to set up a hub at Dulles, which has then over time attracted more Star Alliance partners to serve IAD. BWI's accomplished great things with Southwest, but without a change to their policy on international partnerships, it's hard to see a big surge there. If WN were to change, however, you could see a lot of potential new routes.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

acentauri--if you could, please fix your post, as it makes it appear that I said something actually said by phluser.
......
Jim

Sorry, too late to Edit. Don't know how that happened though.