Blerg
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:05 pm

nordikcam wrote:
Blerg wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Unreliable is unreliable. :wave:


Yes, you are right, if I buy a car without knowing how to drive it, the manufacturer is at fault, not me. SSJ might have some issues with supplying spare parts but the aircraft itself is not a bad one.


And from a passenger point of view it's really interesting to have a series of canceled flights because the plane has all the qualities in flight but that without spare parts it must stay on the ground! What a pleasure to know that we will not have to support the failures of this aircraft at SN. Thank you SN!


Give me a freaking break with your sensationalist comments on this topic. SN obviously took a risk that didn't pay off in the end. They were greedy by (most likely) the low cost without paying attention to the red flags that were everywhere. Not only that but they went with Cityjet which has its own set of problems and one has to wonder how competent they were at managing all these issues as well.

Let's see how JP performs with it especially since they will have a maintenance facility at their home airport.
 
anxo75
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:35 pm

Blerg wrote:
nordikcam wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Yes, you are right, if I buy a car without knowing how to drive it, the manufacturer is at fault, not me. SSJ might have some issues with supplying spare parts but the aircraft itself is not a bad one.


And from a passenger point of view it's really interesting to have a series of canceled flights because the plane has all the qualities in flight but that without spare parts it must stay on the ground! What a pleasure to know that we will not have to support the failures of this aircraft at SN. Thank you SN!


Give me a freaking break with your sensationalist comments on this topic. SN obviously took a risk that didn't pay off in the end. They were greedy by (most likely) the low cost without paying attention to the red flags that were everywhere. Not only that but they went with Cityjet which has its own set of problems and one has to wonder how competent they were at managing all these issues as well.

Let's see how JP performs with it especially since they will have a maintenance facility at their home airport.


December statistics for Aeroflot SSJ's: 3648 flights, 8676 hours. Not bad for an unreliable plane.
 
rrlopes
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:30 pm

anxo75 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
nordikcam wrote:

And from a passenger point of view it's really interesting to have a series of canceled flights because the plane has all the qualities in flight but that without spare parts it must stay on the ground! What a pleasure to know that we will not have to support the failures of this aircraft at SN. Thank you SN!


Give me a freaking break with your sensationalist comments on this topic. SN obviously took a risk that didn't pay off in the end. They were greedy by (most likely) the low cost without paying attention to the red flags that were everywhere. Not only that but they went with Cityjet which has its own set of problems and one has to wonder how competent they were at managing all these issues as well.

Let's see how JP performs with it especially since they will have a maintenance facility at their home airport.


December statistics for Aeroflot SSJ's: 3648 flights, 8676 hours. Not bad for an unreliable plane.


You find that less than 6 daily hours in december for a major airline who's next door to the OEM and that operates over a third of the whole fleet not bad?
 
Blerg
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:53 pm

rrlopes wrote:
anxo75 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Give me a freaking break with your sensationalist comments on this topic. SN obviously took a risk that didn't pay off in the end. They were greedy by (most likely) the low cost without paying attention to the red flags that were everywhere. Not only that but they went with Cityjet which has its own set of problems and one has to wonder how competent they were at managing all these issues as well.

Let's see how JP performs with it especially since they will have a maintenance facility at their home airport.


December statistics for Aeroflot SSJ's: 3648 flights, 8676 hours. Not bad for an unreliable plane.


You find that less than 6 daily hours in december for a major airline who's next door to the OEM and that operates over a third of the whole fleet not bad?


I just checked some SSJs on FR24 and it seems most of them have two flights per day. Flights seem to be on time so maybe it's because of December, slow season? Would be interesting to see how many hours they fly in let's say June.
 
anxo75
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:41 pm

rrlopes wrote:
anxo75 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Give me a freaking break with your sensationalist comments on this topic. SN obviously took a risk that didn't pay off in the end. They were greedy by (most likely) the low cost without paying attention to the red flags that were everywhere. Not only that but they went with Cityjet which has its own set of problems and one has to wonder how competent they were at managing all these issues as well.

Let's see how JP performs with it especially since they will have a maintenance facility at their home airport.


December statistics for Aeroflot SSJ's: 3648 flights, 8676 hours. Not bad for an unreliable plane.


You find that less than 6 daily hours in december for a major airline who's next door to the OEM and that operates over a third of the whole fleet not bad?

Yes, I do. Those are regional flights, many of them take less than 2 hours...Each month Aeroflot is using them more extensively.
http://ssj-aeroflot.blogspot.com
 
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Aisak
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:32 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
Funny thing is that the CRJs replacing them from Air Nostrum have been equally unreliable if not worse. Reading the pax. comments on tripadvisor is quite entertaining to say the least. Not all the problems Cityjet had were because of the SSJ, and sooner rather than later this bubble will also burst.

My 2 cents


Now you bring Air Nostrum up... Didn't Cityjet and Air Nostrum anounce some kind of merger back in the summer? Any news on this?

I know Air Nostrum pilots are unhappy with the creation of ILAI (holding owing Air Nostrum and some other airlines like Amaszonas) as some Iberia contracted services have moved to ILAI-owned Medops from Malta.
So I wonder how the "soft merger" à la IAG with Cityjet is developping....
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:58 pm

anxo75 wrote:
Those are regional flights, many of them take less than 2 hours...

And? Most of intra-Europe flights are under 2 hours.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:45 pm

Blerg wrote:
Yes, you are right, if I buy a car without knowing how to drive it, the manufacturer is at fault, not me. SSJ might have some issues with supplying spare parts but the aircraft itself is not a bad one.


Bad analogy. Your analogy would be more accurate if you knew how to drive but the car breaks down every couple of days and you have to wait a week for a tow truck from the dealer to get it fixed. SN and Citijet know perfectly well how to operate aircraft. The SSJ is letting them down.

The plane is unreliable and the support is, from all accounts, next to non-existent outside Russia.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:56 pm

anxo75 wrote:
December statistics for Aeroflot SSJ's: 3648 flights, 8676 hours. Not bad for an unreliable plane.


With a fleet of 50, that's just over two flights and less than six hours per plane per day. That's laughable utilisation for a regional jet.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Blerg
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:55 pm

scbriml wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Yes, you are right, if I buy a car without knowing how to drive it, the manufacturer is at fault, not me. SSJ might have some issues with supplying spare parts but the aircraft itself is not a bad one.


Bad analogy. Your analogy would be more accurate if you knew how to drive but the car breaks down every couple of days and you have to wait a week for a tow truck from the dealer to get it fixed. SN and Citijet know perfectly well how to operate aircraft. The SSJ is letting them down.

The plane is unreliable and the support is, from all accounts, next to non-existent outside Russia.


Since you are quoting me you might as well not diverge from what I was saying in my previous posts. I said exactly that, support away from Russia is bad and SN knew that. So why should we blame SSJ for SN's bad management decisions? The fact is that the aircraft itself is fine and competitive but there are some issues that linger.

As for their utilization, it's for the month of December when utilization is lower with most airlines. Some planes fly more, some less. However, delays are almost non-existent, which wasn't the case with SN.
 
eirflot
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:09 pm

I think the appropriate question should be how many of the Aerflot 50 SSJs are operational at the same time? 50 would leave them with some spares!
There is little or no fall off in flying in Russia in December/ January- major holiday months, especially to Sochi, Ejypt and Turkey, and if course the domestic network!
 
Blerg
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:39 pm

I just checked Azimut's SSJs and they seem to be flying three to four rotations a day with no major delays. Aeroflot might have in general low SSJ utilization. As for Azimut, they 'only' have 8 aircraft in their fleet.
 
LJ
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:41 pm

Blerg wrote:
As for their utilization, it's for the month of December when utilization is lower with most airlines. Some planes fly more, some less. However, delays are almost non-existent, which wasn't the case with SN.


Yet if you look at airlines like KL, AF, LH, SN or BA, they all will have an average for their regional fleet of more than 2 a day (3 if you subtract the 7 days between Christmas and New Years Eve).
 
Blerg
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:53 pm

LJ wrote:
Blerg wrote:
As for their utilization, it's for the month of December when utilization is lower with most airlines. Some planes fly more, some less. However, delays are almost non-existent, which wasn't the case with SN.


Yet if you look at airlines like KL, AF, LH, SN or BA, they all will have an average for their regional fleet of more than 2 a day (3 if you subtract the 7 days between Christmas and New Years Eve).


Which is why I looked at Azimut which, like those airlines you mentioned, has three to four rotations per day.

RA-89036 - 12 segments this year.
RA-89079 - 18 segments this year
RA-89080 - 6 segments this year
RA-89085 - 20 segments this year
RA-89093 - 14 segments this year
RA-89094 - 10 segments this year
RA-89095 - 17 segments this year
RA-89096 - 7 segments this year

Mind you, some might have a lower number of segments but they have been flying four longer segments on some days, leaving in the morning and coming back at night around 22.00. As for BA and others, maybe it has to do with their bases being in a part of Europe which is more densely populated? If you look at Azimut they operate some regional flights which are 2.30 away.
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:06 pm

Time and again over the years we have heard the mantra that the Russian aircraft industry does not support it's products and thus it's customers well, especially overseas.
Then along came the SSJ. With a lot of good will for the plane to succeed, many people hoped against hope that this time it would be different... but no, like a self-fulfilling prophecy this promising newcomer has been hobbled by lack of support and that good will and fresh start has been squandered.
What I don't understand is why. In comparison to how it is a massively expensive and complex project to design, build, test and certify a modern jet aircraft, setting up a support network should be a low-tech walk in the park. It should be an easy problem to solve.
A couple of stategically placed rented warehouses around the globe (in say, Mexico City and Dublin) in an unfashionable part of town holding a stock of the spares that are likely to cause an AOG isn't going to break the bank. A deal could be done with 3rd party suppliers to hold a stock of their parts "on consignment" so they share the cost/risk of holding inventory.
Couple the above with a customer service office back at the factory, a Fed-Ex account and a "go team" to support their customers when an AOG occurs and voila! Rocket science it ain't! They could even sell it as "Sukhoi Gold Care" or something :)
Am I missing something?
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
anxo75
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:39 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
Time and again over the years we have heard the mantra that the Russian aircraft industry does not support it's products and thus it's customers well, especially overseas.
Then along came the SSJ. With a lot of good will for the plane to succeed, many people hoped against hope that this time it would be different... but no, like a self-fulfilling prophecy this promising newcomer has been hobbled by lack of support and that good will and fresh start has been squandered.
What I don't understand is why. In comparison to how it is a massively expensive and complex project to design, build, test and certify a modern jet aircraft, setting up a support network should be a low-tech walk in the park. It should be an easy problem to solve.
A couple of stategically placed rented warehouses around the globe (in say, Mexico City and Dublin) in an unfashionable part of town holding a stock of the spares that are likely to cause an AOG isn't going to break the bank. A deal could be done with 3rd party suppliers to hold a stock of their parts "on consignment" so they share the cost/risk of holding inventory.
Couple the above with a customer service office back at the factory, a Fed-Ex account and a "go team" to support their customers when an AOG occurs and voila! Rocket science it ain't! They could even sell it as "Sukhoi Gold Care" or something :)
Am I missing something?

Russia is trying to do something nearly impossible: to develop an aircraft industry without the necessary means to do it. They don`t even have the resources to maintain their space industry...but they keep launching rockets. Forget about politics and just admire how crazy they are...
 
anxo75
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
anxo75 wrote:
December statistics for Aeroflot SSJ's: 3648 flights, 8676 hours. Not bad for an unreliable plane.


With a fleet of 50, that's just over two flights and less than six hours per plane per day. That's laughable utilisation for a regional jet.

You don't seem to understand that the volume of air traffic in Russia is not comparable to that in Europe or USA...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:32 pm

anxo75 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
anxo75 wrote:
December statistics for Aeroflot SSJ's: 3648 flights, 8676 hours. Not bad for an unreliable plane.


With a fleet of 50, that's just over two flights and less than six hours per plane per day. That's laughable utilisation for a regional jet.

You don't seem to understand that the volume of air traffic in Russia is not comparable to that in Europe or USA...


If the SSJ was reliable, Aeroflot could operate those flights with a fleet half that size. If it looks like a duck...
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
eirflot
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:35 pm

Anxo75 - I don't follow your last post? Are you suggesting the volumes are lower or...??? Utilization in Russia or CIS is quite different as a lot of airports have 24 hour operations, something we don't have in europe!!
 
anxo75
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:54 pm

scbriml wrote:
anxo75 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

With a fleet of 50, that's just over two flights and less than six hours per plane per day. That's laughable utilisation for a regional jet.

You don't seem to understand that the volume of air traffic in Russia is not comparable to that in Europe or USA...


If the SSJ was reliable, Aeroflot could operate those flights with a fleet half that size. If it looks like a duck...

So they bought 50 because they knew Superjets were not reliable...speaking of laughable things.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:22 am

anxo75 wrote:
So they bought 50 because they knew Superjets were not reliable...speaking of laughable things.


They did their math... if low purchase price is the selling point, they could've easily bought 50 so they can operate 20... :stirthepot: Seriously, I don't think Aeroflot has any relevance as far gauging SSJs commercial success. They simply did not have much of a freedom of choice.
 
Blerg
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:14 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
anxo75 wrote:
So they bought 50 because they knew Superjets were not reliable...speaking of laughable things.


They did their math... if low purchase price is the selling point, they could've easily bought 50 so they can operate 20... :stirthepot: Seriously, I don't think Aeroflot has any relevance as far gauging SSJs commercial success. They simply did not have much of a freedom of choice.


And how exactly do you know they didn't have much of a freedom of choice? Would love to see a source on that.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:15 am

LOL Blerg and anxo75, you are really clutching at straws!
If Dear Leader in either Russia and China wants you as a manager of a state run enterprise to buy a particular aircraft you just go and buy it. No questions asked. He still allows you to buy western aircraft so that you can actually operate your flight schedule and have revenues that will keep the lights on but you WILL also buy the state produced lemon of a plane. Whether that is the SSJ or the ARJ21.
Because keeping your job as an airline executive sure beats getting blacklisted by the all powerful state and scraping a living by shoveling snow or worse.
 
Catfry
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:37 am

anxo75 wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
Time and again over the years we have heard the mantra that the Russian aircraft industry does not support it's products and thus it's customers well, especially overseas.
Then along came the SSJ. With a lot of good will for the plane to succeed, many people hoped against hope that this time it would be different... but no, like a self-fulfilling prophecy this promising newcomer has been hobbled by lack of support and that good will and fresh start has been squandered.
What I don't understand is why. In comparison to how it is a massively expensive and complex project to design, build, test and certify a modern jet aircraft, setting up a support network should be a low-tech walk in the park. It should be an easy problem to solve.
A couple of stategically placed rented warehouses around the globe (in say, Mexico City and Dublin) in an unfashionable part of town holding a stock of the spares that are likely to cause an AOG isn't going to break the bank. A deal could be done with 3rd party suppliers to hold a stock of their parts "on consignment" so they share the cost/risk of holding inventory.
Couple the above with a customer service office back at the factory, a Fed-Ex account and a "go team" to support their customers when an AOG occurs and voila! Rocket science it ain't! They could even sell it as "Sukhoi Gold Care" or something :)
Am I missing something?

Russia is trying to do something nearly impossible: to develop an aircraft industry without the necessary means to do it. They don`t even have the resources to maintain their space industry...but they keep launching rockets. Forget about politics and just admire how crazy they are...


In fact supply chain management and logistics are more complicated than you would think just by a cursory glance.
If you need to provide a given unit at a given time and place you stock it in advance, and you make sure you have a large stock to account for unexpexted surges in demand, and you place them spread around the globe so can be brought to the point of need at short notice.
All of that is pretty simple and does not require any special training to achieve. What complicates things greatly is that that is only half the equation, since it ignores the costs involved.
One huge factor in aircraft spares is that you tie up very large amounts of capital in spares. since products don't earn any money while they sit in storage, and since they have such long lead times and huge costs in their production, it is a very exposed part of any attempt to bring an aircraft project to market when the capital become tight and you organization is fighting for its existence, and are looking for ways to achieve savings.
another very difficult SCM issue in maintenance is the cost sharing. Since many partners are involved there needs to be a thorough coordination as to where the costs and benefits are matched in time. My impression is this is a big problem in the case of the SSJ, because the supplier partners do not have the spare capital to just build a bunch of spares without compensation, And Sukhoi or the customers do not provide loans to suppliers, only an absolute minimum of spares are built. I don't have special knowledge of the inner workings of the SSJ project, but in all industries it is often the case that a capital poor supply chain will reveal itself through flagging spare support and maintenance.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:24 pm

Catfry wrote:
anxo75 wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
Time and again over the years we have heard the mantra that the Russian aircraft industry does not support it's products and thus it's customers well, especially overseas.
Then along came the SSJ. With a lot of good will for the plane to succeed, many people hoped against hope that this time it would be different... but no, like a self-fulfilling prophecy this promising newcomer has been hobbled by lack of support and that good will and fresh start has been squandered.
What I don't understand is why. In comparison to how it is a massively expensive and complex project to design, build, test and certify a modern jet aircraft, setting up a support network should be a low-tech walk in the park. It should be an easy problem to solve.
A couple of stategically placed rented warehouses around the globe (in say, Mexico City and Dublin) in an unfashionable part of town holding a stock of the spares that are likely to cause an AOG isn't going to break the bank. A deal could be done with 3rd party suppliers to hold a stock of their parts "on consignment" so they share the cost/risk of holding inventory.
Couple the above with a customer service office back at the factory, a Fed-Ex account and a "go team" to support their customers when an AOG occurs and voila! Rocket science it ain't! They could even sell it as "Sukhoi Gold Care" or something :)
Am I missing something?

Russia is trying to do something nearly impossible: to develop an aircraft industry without the necessary means to do it. They don`t even have the resources to maintain their space industry...but they keep launching rockets. Forget about politics and just admire how crazy they are...


In fact supply chain management and logistics are more complicated than you would think just by a cursory glance.
If you need to provide a given unit at a given time and place you stock it in advance, and you make sure you have a large stock to account for unexpexted surges in demand, and you place them spread around the globe so can be brought to the point of need at short notice.
All of that is pretty simple and does not require any special training to achieve. What complicates things greatly is that that is only half the equation, since it ignores the costs involved.
One huge factor in aircraft spares is that you tie up very large amounts of capital in spares. since products don't earn any money while they sit in storage, and since they have such long lead times and huge costs in their production, it is a very exposed part of any attempt to bring an aircraft project to market when the capital become tight and you organization is fighting for its existence, and are looking for ways to achieve savings.
another very difficult SCM issue in maintenance is the cost sharing. Since many partners are involved there needs to be a thorough coordination as to where the costs and benefits are matched in time. My impression is this is a big problem in the case of the SSJ, because the supplier partners do not have the spare capital to just build a bunch of spares without compensation, And Sukhoi or the customers do not provide loans to suppliers, only an absolute minimum of spares are built. I don't have special knowledge of the inner workings of the SSJ project, but in all industries it is often the case that a capital poor supply chain will reveal itself through flagging spare support and maintenance.


You are not incorrect but in the airline world, airlines and their MRO's are the ones expected to hold spares.
So airlines are responsible for anticipating their own needs and prepare for them.
So IMO if you choose an aircraft type that is cheaper to procure but you expect less good support and spares availability, as an operator you need to anticipate that you will have to invest more in spares.

I think that SU is in the clear because the mass of their operation allows them to hold sufficient spare parts in house and keep the aircraft operational.

So imo, the current Cityjet management don't know what they're doing. They thought that buying the aircraft was all they needed to worry about.

I would also like to drop a note that even though A320 and B737 spare parts are available at most major airports, procuring them is not a simple matter. In fact, many airlines have Learjets/Citation jets or what not on standby to deliver spare parts and mechanics.
When you need a part at an outstation or even out of stock at the base and a competing airline/MRO has one, you will have to ask very very nicely and expect to still pay a multiple of what the part is worth. In general the competitor will provide one as a gentleman's gesture.
In fact, many airlines have Learjets/Citation jets or what not on standby to deliver spare parts and mechanics if they can't find a solution.

So yes, Western aircraft have good spares availability but that too is not cheap for the airlines. Keeping aircraft flying is a pain in the xxx. The easy way out is to blame someone else when things don't pan out.
 
rutankrd
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:35 pm

Two Air Nostrum Canadian 1000s are already on estate replacing some of the SU95 flying.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:48 pm

rutankrd wrote:
Two Air Nostrum Canadian 1000s are already on estate replacing some of the SU95 flying.


I got one the other day, missing out on the SSJ by just two days. It's a bit confusing as they announce on board "Brussels Airlines operated by Air Nostrum flying for Cityjet" (seriously). I had two Spanish cabin crew and one Belgian one on the CRK, and they wore Cityjet uniforms.

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:11 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
They did their math... if low purchase price is the selling point, they could've easily bought 50 so they can operate 20... Seriously, I don't think Aeroflot has any relevance as far gauging SSJs commercial success. They simply did not have much of a freedom of choice.


:checkmark:

P1aneMad wrote:
If Dear Leader in either Russia and China wants you as a manager of a state run enterprise to buy a particular aircraft you just go and buy it. No questions asked.


:checkmark:

Waterbomber wrote:
So imo, the current Cityjet management don't know what they're doing. They thought that buying the aircraft was all they needed to worry about.


I doubt very much they're as stupid as you're suggesting. I suspect they know more about running an airline than most contributors here combined. They apparently acquired a bunch of lemons and are now putting it right.


What proportion of produced SSJs are actually in active airline service? A shockingly large number appear to be stored or withdrawn from use, while Sukhoi/KnAAPO have a good number on their own books still.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Catfry
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:55 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
You are not incorrect but in the airline world, airlines and their MRO's are the ones expected to hold spares.
So airlines are responsible for anticipating their own needs and prepare for them.
So IMO if you choose an aircraft type that is cheaper to procure but you expect less good support and spares availability, as an operator you need to anticipate that you will have to invest more in spares.

I think that SU is in the clear because the mass of their operation allows them to hold sufficient spare parts in house and keep the aircraft operational.

So imo, the current Cityjet management don't know what they're doing. They thought that buying the aircraft was all they needed to worry about.

I would also like to drop a note that even though A320 and B737 spare parts are available at most major airports, procuring them is not a simple matter. In fact, many airlines have Learjets/Citation jets or what not on standby to deliver spare parts and mechanics.
When you need a part at an outstation or even out of stock at the base and a competing airline/MRO has one, you will have to ask very very nicely and expect to still pay a multiple of what the part is worth. In general the competitor will provide one as a gentleman's gesture.
In fact, many airlines have Learjets/Citation jets or what not on standby to deliver spare parts and mechanics if they can't find a solution.

So yes, Western aircraft have good spares availability but that too is not cheap for the airlines. Keeping aircraft flying is a pain in the xxx. The easy way out is to blame someone else when things don't pan out.
[/quote][/quote]

Yeah, I'm not hugely familiar with the world of airliner spares management, and I was mostly speaking against the suggestion that it is easy from a general logistics point of view.
I will ask you though, is it really normal for all airlines to hold all the needed spares for their operation? I know of companies like Satair, who act as a spare management company, for Airbus parts especially. I thought it worked in that satair aqcuire spares themselves, and then having airlines as customers who signed up for some sort of subsrciption + consumtion based deal.
I just thought that outside very large airlines like Delta or Lufthansa, most airlines will hold some critical spares, but the bulk of line numbers will be sourced by outside specialists like Satair, I admit I'm probably wrong about how it works..
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5936
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:40 pm

Blerg wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
anxo75 wrote:
So they bought 50 because they knew Superjets were not reliable...speaking of laughable things.


They did their math... if low purchase price is the selling pitch, they could've easily bought 50 so they can operate 20... :stirthepot: Seriously, I don't think Aeroflot has any relevance as far as gauging SSJs commercial success. They simply did not have much of a freedom of choice.


And how exactly do you know they didn't have much of a freedom of choice? Would love to see a source on that.


I did not say "I know", I said "I think"... that is expressing my opinion.
Even if we choose to ignore the (semi-)totalitarian political reality of Russia and look at it strictly from a business perspective: both SU and Sukhoi have the same owner/investor, the Russian state, which decides who runs both companies.
That being said: Do you really think that since Russian state invested significant amount of money into the development of the SSJ and naturally wants it to succeed, if not for commercial reasons then at least "to prove" everyone that they are capable to make good passenger aircraft, the SU CEO could realistically say: "thanks, but no thanks, we think the SSJ is subpar and we won't buy them"?
 
Blerg
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:00 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Blerg wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:

They did their math... if low purchase price is the selling pitch, they could've easily bought 50 so they can operate 20... :stirthepot: Seriously, I don't think Aeroflot has any relevance as far as gauging SSJs commercial success. They simply did not have much of a freedom of choice.


And how exactly do you know they didn't have much of a freedom of choice? Would love to see a source on that.


I did not say "I know", I said "I think"... that is expressing my opinion.
Even if we choose to ignore the (semi-)totalitarian political reality of Russia and look at it strictly from a business perspective: both SU and Sukhoi have the same owner/investor, the Russian state, which decides who runs both companies.
That being said: Do you really think that since Russian state invested significant amount of money into the development of the SSJ and naturally wants it to succeed, if not for commercial reasons then at least "to prove" everyone that they are capable to make good passenger aircraft, the SU CEO could realistically say: "thanks, but no thanks, we think the SSJ is subpar and we won't buy them"?


And you honestly think Aeroflot is not as important to the Russian government as the SSJ program? Why would they risk their own reputation as well as that of SU in order to sell the aircraft at all cost. If they really wanted to boost sales then they could have forced some smaller or other privately owned carriers to get them. I think people are taking these conspiracy theories a bit too far, I guess some on here are mentally stuck in the 1970s.
 
ewt340
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:22 am

Blerg wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Blerg wrote:

And how exactly do you know they didn't have much of a freedom of choice? Would love to see a source on that.


I did not say "I know", I said "I think"... that is expressing my opinion.
Even if we choose to ignore the (semi-)totalitarian political reality of Russia and look at it strictly from a business perspective: both SU and Sukhoi have the same owner/investor, the Russian state, which decides who runs both companies.
That being said: Do you really think that since Russian state invested significant amount of money into the development of the SSJ and naturally wants it to succeed, if not for commercial reasons then at least "to prove" everyone that they are capable to make good passenger aircraft, the SU CEO could realistically say: "thanks, but no thanks, we think the SSJ is subpar and we won't buy them"?


And you honestly think Aeroflot is not as important to the Russian government as the SSJ program? Why would they risk their own reputation as well as that of SU in order to sell the aircraft at all cost. If they really wanted to boost sales then they could have forced some smaller or other privately owned carriers to get them. I think people are taking these conspiracy theories a bit too far, I guess some on here are mentally stuck in the 1970s.


Reputation? When did they built any reputation?
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2105
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:57 am

I know it's late in the discussion, but I feel we should perhaps amend the title to " CityJet ditching the SSJ". It's NOT Brussels Airlines.
 
Blerg
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:47 am

ewt340 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:

I did not say "I know", I said "I think"... that is expressing my opinion.
Even if we choose to ignore the (semi-)totalitarian political reality of Russia and look at it strictly from a business perspective: both SU and Sukhoi have the same owner/investor, the Russian state, which decides who runs both companies.
That being said: Do you really think that since Russian state invested significant amount of money into the development of the SSJ and naturally wants it to succeed, if not for commercial reasons then at least "to prove" everyone that they are capable to make good passenger aircraft, the SU CEO could realistically say: "thanks, but no thanks, we think the SSJ is subpar and we won't buy them"?


And you honestly think Aeroflot is not as important to the Russian government as the SSJ program? Why would they risk their own reputation as well as that of SU in order to sell the aircraft at all cost. If they really wanted to boost sales then they could have forced some smaller or other privately owned carriers to get them. I think people are taking these conspiracy theories a bit too far, I guess some on here are mentally stuck in the 1970s.


Reputation? When did they built any reputation?


Are you implying that SU is not a reputable carrier?
 
anxo75
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:40 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:06 am

oldannyboy wrote:
I know it's late in the discussion, but I feel we should perhaps amend the title to " CityJet ditching the SSJ". It's NOT Brussels Airlines.

It IS Brussels Airlines.
 
User avatar
CarbonFibre
Posts: 315
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:44 pm

The Cityjet liveried examples are also now stored.
 
iRISH251
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:56 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:23 pm

CarbonFibre wrote:
The Cityjet liveried examples are also now stored.


Three are in DUB and two in SNN. I think the sixth is in Italy and has been there for some time.
 
ewt340
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:25 am

Blerg wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

And you honestly think Aeroflot is not as important to the Russian government as the SSJ program? Why would they risk their own reputation as well as that of SU in order to sell the aircraft at all cost. If they really wanted to boost sales then they could have forced some smaller or other privately owned carriers to get them. I think people are taking these conspiracy theories a bit too far, I guess some on here are mentally stuck in the 1970s.


Reputation? When did they built any reputation?


Are you implying that SU is not a reputable carrier?


Yes.

Not just the service aspects, but financial situation and operations. They are on par with many state-owned/state-controlled airlines. Like Air India, Thai, GA, etc.
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:52 am

I think it's unfair for Thai and Garuda to be compared with Aeroflot. :)
 
SeoulIncheon
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:52 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:07 am

ewt340 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Reputation? When did they built any reputation?


Are you implying that SU is not a reputable carrier?


Yes.

Not just the service aspects, but financial situation and operations. They are on par with many state-owned/state-controlled airlines. Like Air India, Thai, GA, etc.


You are a bit harsh to TG or GA - no way SU is on par with TG or GA! SU is probably only matched by AI or AR(Argentina)...
 
Blerg
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:14 am

ewt340 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Reputation? When did they built any reputation?


Are you implying that SU is not a reputable carrier?


Yes.

Not just the service aspects, but financial situation and operations. They are on par with many state-owned/state-controlled airlines. Like Air India, Thai, GA, etc.


You are delusional or just blinded by your hate for Russia.
 
LH526
Moderator
Posts: 1985
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2000 2:23 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:42 am

Guys, please stay on-topic, otherwise we would need to lock this thread.
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
Blerg
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:11 pm

ewt340 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
The amount of pure hatred and politics here is disgusting, nevermind factually wrong.


To be fair, SSJ hasn't been as successful as other aircraft on the market. Factually speaking, majority of SSJ100's customers are Russians. 15 orders from CityJet, and 30 from InterJet and 3 from Royal Thai Government are the only non-russians operator.

48 out of the 295 orders come from foreigner Airlines or Government, while the other 247 come from within Russia.


Yet it's been more successful than B736 or the A318.
 
User avatar
CarbonFibre
Posts: 315
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:56 pm

Didn't Lao Airlines order a couple?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:37 pm

Blerg wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
The amount of pure hatred and politics here is disgusting, nevermind factually wrong.


To be fair, SSJ hasn't been as successful as other aircraft on the market. Factually speaking, majority of SSJ100's customers are Russians. 15 orders from CityJet, and 30 from InterJet and 3 from Royal Thai Government are the only non-russians operator.

48 out of the 295 orders come from foreigner Airlines or Government, while the other 247 come from within Russia.


Yet it's been more successful than B736 or the A318.

Except that the 736 and the A318 are only one variant each of much larger and much more successful offerings (respectively 737NG's and A320 Family).
The SSJ100 is the sole variant of the SSJ Family as of now; so, compare is to the whole 737NG or A320 Families, not the 736 or A318.
 
Blerg
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:54 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Blerg wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

To be fair, SSJ hasn't been as successful as other aircraft on the market. Factually speaking, majority of SSJ100's customers are Russians. 15 orders from CityJet, and 30 from InterJet and 3 from Royal Thai Government are the only non-russians operator.

48 out of the 295 orders come from foreigner Airlines or Government, while the other 247 come from within Russia.


Yet it's been more successful than B736 or the A318.

Except that the 736 and the A318 are only one variant each of much larger and much more successful offerings (respectively 737NG's and A320 Family).
The SSJ100 is the sole variant of the SSJ Family as of now; so, compare is to the whole 737NG or A320 Families, not the 736 or A318.


Except that Boeing and Airbus have been on the market for decades and decades. How long has it been since the SSJ model was launched?
 
GSTBA
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:20 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:16 pm

rutankrd wrote:
Two Air Nostrum Canadian 1000s are already on estate replacing some of the SU95 flying.

They have been joined by 2 Air Nostrum CRJ900’s.

WX RJ85’s are showing as operating on behalf of SN from the start of S19 schedule. Does anyone know how many RJ85’s are to operate on behalf of SN next summer?
 
alfa164
Posts: 2435
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:18 pm

CarbonFibre wrote:
Didn't Lao Airlines order a couple?


Lao Central Airlines, a privately-owned company, did, but they ceased flying. I understand the frames they ordered wound up in Putin's personal fleet.

Blerg wrote:
Except that Boeing and Airbus have been on the market for decades and decades. How long has it been since the SSJ model was launched?


Irrelevant. The Russians here would do best by admitting the SSJ is DOA, and move on to another arguably debatable topic.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:42 pm

Blerg wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Yet it's been more successful than B736 or the A318.

Except that the 736 and the A318 are only one variant each of much larger and much more successful offerings (respectively 737NG's and A320 Family).
The SSJ100 is the sole variant of the SSJ Family as of now; so, compare is to the whole 737NG or A320 Families, not the 736 or A318.


Except that Boeing and Airbus have been on the market for decades and decades. How long has it been since the SSJ model was launched?

And the SSJ is a product of Sukhoi, which has been existing for decades and decades.

Now, the 737NG & 737MAX has sold basically 12,075 copies in 25 years from launch of the 737NG (1993 to January 2019); average of 483 sold per year.
The A320 Family (let's include the NEO's) has sold basically 14,500 copies in 35 years from launch of the A320 (March 1984 to January 2019); average of 420 sold per year.
The SSJ has sold 301 copies in 14 years from launch (March 2004 to January 2019); average of 22 sold per year.

Still want to compare the SSJ to the 737 and A320???
 
Blerg
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:29 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Blerg wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Except that the 736 and the A318 are only one variant each of much larger and much more successful offerings (respectively 737NG's and A320 Family).
The SSJ100 is the sole variant of the SSJ Family as of now; so, compare is to the whole 737NG or A320 Families, not the 736 or A318.


Except that Boeing and Airbus have been on the market for decades and decades. How long has it been since the SSJ model was launched?

And the SSJ is a product of Sukhoi, which has been existing for decades and decades.

Now, the 737NG & 737MAX has sold basically 12,075 copies in 25 years from launch of the 737NG (1993 to January 2019); average of 483 sold per year.
The A320 Family (let's include the NEO's) has sold basically 14,500 copies in 35 years from launch of the A320 (March 1984 to January 2019); average of 420 sold per year.
The SSJ has sold 301 copies in 14 years from launch (March 2004 to January 2019); average of 22 sold per year.

Still want to compare the SSJ to the 737 and A320???


Sukhoi has been around for a while but how many passenger aircraft have they actually developed since they were set up? They are new in this game.
Furthermore, both NG and MAX versions are a continuation of a highly successful aircraft launched in 1967. We need to give SSJ more time to see if they manage to overcome their supply issues on the international markets.

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