User avatar
nordikcam
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:44 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:56 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
anxo75 wrote:
intrance wrote:
Ex-colleague of mine got hired onto the CRJ with a Brussels base by Cityjet. So I guess they’re hoping to keep the contract, just with CRJ instead of Sukhoi.

I'm not sure SN wants to get rid of SSj's as much as the the users of this forum...What an obsession!


I hope that SN will quickly abandon this plane after the multiple cancellations. The site Aviation24 in a dedicated topic announced last June 22 that 4 out of 6 SSJ were AOG ... only two planes were flying! Terrible! I fly with KLM the time SN recovers
 
leghorn
Posts: 664
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:50 pm

https://irishaviationresearchinstitute. ... isits.html

bombardier showing CRJ900 with atmosphere interior to Cityjet in Dublin.
 
User avatar
intrance
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:11 pm

anxo75 wrote:
intrance wrote:
Ex-colleague of mine got hired onto the CRJ with a Brussels base by Cityjet. So I guess they’re hoping to keep the contract, just with CRJ instead of Sukhoi.

I'm not sure SN wants to get rid of SSj's as much as the the users of this forum...What an obsession!


Not sure why you’re quoting me with your tirade, I simply shared one fact and one bit of speculation based on that fact. I have no strong feelings about the Sukhoi either way.
 
anxo75
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:40 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:40 pm

nordikcam wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
anxo75 wrote:
intrance wrote:
Ex-colleague of mine got hired onto the CRJ with a Brussels base by Cityjet. So I guess they’re hoping to keep the contract, just with CRJ instead of Sukhoi.

I'm not sure SN wants to get rid of SSj's as much as the the users of this forum...What an obsession!


I hope that SN will quickly abandon this plane after the multiple cancellations. The site Aviation24 in a dedicated topic announced last June 22 that 4 out of 6 SSJ were AOG ... only two planes were flying! Terrible! I fly with KLM the time SN recovers

So cancellations for a couple of days deserve the adjective "multiple"...I invite you to have a look at flightradar and you'll see them flying to multiple destinations without a problem for months...
 
anxo75
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:40 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:45 pm

nordikcam wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
anxo75 wrote:
intrance wrote:
Ex-colleague of mine got hired onto the CRJ with a Brussels base by Cityjet. So I guess they’re hoping to keep the contract, just with CRJ instead of Sukhoi.

I'm not sure SN wants to get rid of SSj's as much as the the users of this forum...What an obsession!


I hope that SN will quickly abandon this plane after the multiple cancellations. The site Aviation24 in a dedicated topic announced last June 22 that 4 out of 6 SSJ were AOG ... only two planes were flying! Terrible! I fly with KLM the time SN recovers

...And why do you hope it? It sounds like it's something personal...
 
User avatar
holcakker
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:47 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:10 pm

Russian-built commercial aircraft are not fun to operate, everyone knows that who ever tried it. Let alone making money with them (other than niche types like heavy cargo). You can't make money on a fleet of 6 aircraft with such number of AOGs. They had 10 years to ramp up production, create adequate stock/delivery system of spare parts, fine-tune the MEL etc. but it seems it's not there yet. We're still about to see the first western-standard major operator to choose the SSJ (pls leave me alone with Aeroflot and Interjet here).
 
anxo75
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:40 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:27 pm

holcakker wrote:
Russian-built commercial aircraft are not fun to operate, everyone knows that who ever tried it. Let alone making money with them (other than niche types like heavy cargo). You can't make money on a fleet of 6 aircraft with such number of AOGs. They had 10 years to ramp up production, create adequate stock/delivery system of spare parts, fine-tune the MEL etc. but it seems it's not there yet. We're still about to see the first western-standard major operator to choose the SSJ (pls leave me alone with Aeroflot and Interjet here).

Do you think an American operator would be allowed to get some ssj? I very much doubt it...
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:05 pm

I think the question is, would an American operator want to buy the SSJ? With the parts and MX issues that we're hearing about, I rather doubt it. As others have said, Airbus and Boeing, for example, make after sales service almost a religion. If Sukhoi were follow down that path, then more Western orders would likely occur. However, until the do its likely a moot point.
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 pm

leghorn wrote:
Bombardier showing CRJ900 with atmosphere interior to Cityjet in Dublin

I did not realize many parts of the CRJs are made not too far away...

"BBD Belfast designs and manufactures the complete centre fuselage for all the CRJ700/900/1000 aircrafts, and engine nachelles and wing components for the CRJ900 aircraft."
 
Bhoy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:27 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Bombardier showing CRJ900 with atmosphere interior to Cityjet in Dublin

I did not realize many parts of the CRJs are made not too far away...

"BBD Belfast designs and manufactures the complete centre fuselage for all the CRJ700/900/1000 aircrafts, and engine nachelles and wing components for the CRJ900 aircraft."

Yeah, BBD Belfast is what used to be Shorts after Bombardier took them over.
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:47 pm

As you say, it's now under BBD Aerostructure.

But it's still called "Short Brothers plc" and they even seem to have a distinct / separate financial reporting system - that obviously gets added to BBD's.
 
User avatar
CarbonFibre
Posts: 315
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:58 pm

SN have brought forward their final SSJ service to January 7th. Was previously scheduled for end of March.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... 33ZMlbnoBA
 
User avatar
JannEejit
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:23 pm

Given that the SSJ is part Western (Italian) why isn't there a decent after sales facility emanating from there ?
 
F27500
Posts: 606
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:52 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:49 pm

Zero sympathy. SN knowingly bought a Russian plane (mistake #1) that was a brand new unproven design (mistake #2) from a manufacturer with no track record (mistake #3).

What were they even thinking? Total stupidity on SN part.
 
User avatar
SKAirbus
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:23 pm

F27500 wrote:
Zero sympathy. SN knowingly bought a Russian plane (mistake #1) that was a brand new unproven design (mistake #2) from a manufacturer with no track record (mistake #3).

What were they even thinking? Total stupidity on SN part.


Before posting such a loaded reaction, I would advise reading the thread.

SN did not buy or even order the aircraft; they were provided via their operating contract with CityJet. I flew with the SSJ many times between BRU and BMA and didn't particularly like it. Lots of delays and tiny windows.

Anyway, the aircraft are now being replaced with CRJs.
Base: BRU
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:19 am

Cityjet have been struggling for years. Sometimes in business the choice is either a long slow decline into bankruptcy, or taking a commercial risk and hoping the company can be profitable again

The company which never takes commercial risks will never make money.
As the saying goes - fortune favours the brave

Cityjet has found the SSJ to be a bad choice but they did at least try and put their money into it; more than can be said for many armchair CEOs
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:22 am

The last few flights to BMA have been A319’s. Is that only temporary, and is the A319 allowed at BMA with the noise restrictions they have?
 
F27500
Posts: 606
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:52 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:09 am

SKAirbus wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Zero sympathy. SN knowingly bought a Russian plane (mistake #1) that was a brand new unproven design (mistake #2) from a manufacturer with no track record (mistake #3).

What were they even thinking? Total stupidity on SN part.


Before posting such a loaded reaction, I would advise reading the thread.

SN did not buy or even order the aircraft; they were provided via their operating contract with CityJet. I flew with the SSJ many times between BRU and BMA and didn't particularly like it. Lots of delays and tiny windows.

Anyway, the aircraft are now being replaced with CRJs.



I understand that. I meant the airline (CityJet) operating them who did actually order them. My mistake in wording.

But I do stand by my opinion, regardless of the naming error .. you get my idea.

Garbage airplane .. and a very bad decision.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:33 am

Funny thing is that the CRJs replacing them from Air Nostrum have been equally unreliable if not worse. Reading the pax. comments on tripadvisor is quite entertaining to say the least. Not all the problems Cityjet had were because of the SSJ, and sooner rather than later this bubble will also burst.

My 2 cents
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:08 am

Given the support and reliability issues, I've always been surprised that Sukhoi didn't have dedicated, "strike teams," on hand to handle maintenance issues. This way, they could turn the planes quickly, demonstrate reliability, and therefore perhaps increase sales. Otherwise, they were essentially orphaning the aircraft. Though I'm an American, I can respect good engineering and tip my hat to it. However, as an Economics teacher who uses aviation and airlines in his curriculum I cannot respect Sukhoi's lack of after sales support. That seems to be the big, huge elephant in the room, and strangely one that Sukhoi oddly never saw.
 
ewt340
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:36 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
Given the support and reliability issues, I've always been surprised that Sukhoi didn't have dedicated, "strike teams," on hand to handle maintenance issues. This way, they could turn the planes quickly, demonstrate reliability, and therefore perhaps increase sales. Otherwise, they were essentially orphaning the aircraft. Though I'm an American, I can respect good engineering and tip my hat to it. However, as an Economics teacher who uses aviation and airlines in his curriculum I cannot respect Sukhoi's lack of after sales support. That seems to be the big, huge elephant in the room, and strangely one that Sukhoi oddly never saw.


LOL, do they even have money for that? I don't think their main focus is to actually enter Western market anyway. It's a failed project, and they are smart enough to knew it. The Government is now looking to their new developed aircraft with China and they want to push it to airlines in developed countries. They never succeed doing proper business. So they just try to enter the Corrupt market where they offer a cheaper options and befriend the Governments of said countries to sell their products.

It's a same old story. Besides, it's not like SSJ100 were beneficial for SN in the first place. Whatever routes they are operating with 3 SSJ100 would be easily be replaced with A319 or scrapped if the demand wasn't big enough. It's not like they operated 50 SSJ100.
 
Blerg
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:02 am

Well, Adria from Slovenia got 15 SSJ and the first is entering service in April 2019. Seems like Russians have learned their lesson and will be building a maintenance facility at Ljubljana airport.
 
User avatar
holcakker
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:47 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:09 am

Which will be the last nail in the coffin of Adria.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:51 am

Wayfarer515 wrote:
Funny thing is that the CRJs replacing them from Air Nostrum have been equally unreliable if not worse. Reading the pax. comments on tripadvisor is quite entertaining to say the least. Not all the problems Cityjet had were because of the SSJ, and sooner rather than later this bubble will also burst.

My 2 cents


You are entitled to your (Russian) point-of-view; the rest of the world seems to think the CRJ's operate rather well - especially in comparison to the SSJ's, which have lately seen more and more airlines parking.

And which "bubble" do you expect to burst? Will it be before the SSJ's go "bust"?
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:19 am

CarbonFibre wrote:
SN have brought forward their final SSJ service to January 7th. Was previously scheduled for end of March.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... 33ZMlbnoBA

Looks like they can't wait to get rid of it.
What a Charlie Foxtrot of an airliner project...
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2229
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:21 pm

It does not mean SSJ is an unreliable a/c. It does not mean SN is not a good airline when it comes to logistics. It means that there is no ROI as good as for other a/c operated by SN. The world is full of examples of products that failed not because these were poor products but because there were not as good or as cost-effective as competition.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:53 pm

ly7e7 wrote:
It does not mean SSJ is an unreliable a/c. It does not mean SN is not a good airline when it comes to logistics. It means that there is no ROI as good as for other a/c operated by SN. The world is full of examples of products that failed not because these were poor products but because there were not as good or as cost-effective as competition.


But the SSJ is indeed unreliable, this has been shown time and again and nobody is denying that, but one of the main culprits of the poor support comes from Safran, which has been unable to produce a semi-decent combustion chamber in the SAM146 engine, many of them failing in the 1000hr operation mark instead of the expected 8000hrs, ask anybody in Interjet about this and they will tell you this is true. This of course was part of the stupid decision by SCAC and UAC to rely on them as their sole engine provider, but Safran support sucks as much as SCAC and UAC, if not more.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 841
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:12 am

In my opinion, many posters here don't get the full picture. As the previous post from Wayfarer points out, one of the major bottlenecks in support was owed to French conglomerate and major GE partner Safran who delivers CFM engines to Airbus and Boeing besides parts for competing RJ engines such as the CF34.

Did they do it on purpose to sabotage the Russians? Who knows...

The Chinese better watch out for their C929.
Perhaps this is the very reason the Russians are proposing two engine options on the MC-21, with one domestic option.
 
ewt340
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:24 am

Waterbomber wrote:
In my opinion, many posters here don't get the full picture. As the previous post from Wayfarer points out, one of the major bottlenecks in support was owed to French conglomerate and major GE partner Safran who delivers CFM engines to Airbus and Boeing besides parts for competing RJ engines such as the CF34.

Did they do it on purpose to sabotage the Russians? Who knows...

The Chinese better watch out for their C929.
Perhaps this is the very reason the Russians are proposing two engine options on the MC-21, with one domestic option.


The Chinese know the project gonna fail and they would lose tons of money of it, they are not that stupid, just a bit tactical. What they are paying for are image, experience and political connections to Russia. Forcing airlines in China to buy it is just a tactic to help soft the blow (basically forcing the airlines to partially funded the failed project and hide the fact that the project gonna lose tons of money for the sake of Nationalism).
 
Blerg
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:50 am

ewt340 wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
In my opinion, many posters here don't get the full picture. As the previous post from Wayfarer points out, one of the major bottlenecks in support was owed to French conglomerate and major GE partner Safran who delivers CFM engines to Airbus and Boeing besides parts for competing RJ engines such as the CF34.

Did they do it on purpose to sabotage the Russians? Who knows...

The Chinese better watch out for their C929.
Perhaps this is the very reason the Russians are proposing two engine options on the MC-21, with one domestic option.


The Chinese know the project gonna fail and they would lose tons of money of it, they are not that stupid, just a bit tactical. What they are paying for are image, experience and political connections to Russia. Forcing airlines in China to buy it is just a tactic to help soft the blow (basically forcing the airlines to partially funded the failed project and hide the fact that the project gonna lose tons of money for the sake of Nationalism).


I think nationalism has nothing to do with this. Don't forget that the SSJ on its own is a fine aircraft, so the Russians did a good job there. They failed in what came after, technical support. That is why the SSJ doesn't sell anywhere outside Russia.
In September Aeroflot decided to get another 100 SSJ aircraft. Now, we are on an aviation forum where we should know that SU successfully resisted government pressure to get any new Russian-built models (A321 vs Tu-204 for example) and they retired all the older aircraft they inherited from the Soviet era as well as from the 1990s (Tu-134, Tu-154, IL-86, IL-96...).

Now, if they are still committed to the SSJ it can only mean that the aircraft is not bad and that it allows SU to remain competitive on the international markets. C929 will most likely be a failure of epic proportions but what might not be is the joint Sino-Russian widebody aircraft.
 
bx737
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:47 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:10 pm

I think that there was poor after sales support especially when the aircraft suffered technical problems. The provider of the needed spare parts did not provide them in a quick enough timescale. I believe the leasing contracts that the Superjets had did not permit operators to have a stock of spare parts (this is rumour I have heard and I can’t confirm it). However I believe Aeroflot have a different deal and are able to carry a stock of spare parts, thus downtime is a lot less in the event of snags for Aeroflot
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 16026
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:03 pm

bx737 wrote:
I think that there was poor after sales support especially when the aircraft suffered technical problems. The provider of the needed spare parts did not provide them in a quick enough timescale. I believe the leasing contracts that the Superjets had did not permit operators to have a stock of spare parts (this is rumour I have heard and I can’t confirm it). However I believe Aeroflot have a different deal and are able to carry a stock of spare parts, thus downtime is a lot less in the event of snags for Aeroflot

Insufficient testing. Poor spares support.

Now the A220-100 and E2-190 are out. In high utilization similar costs and greater seat counts.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
Blerg
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
bx737 wrote:
I think that there was poor after sales support especially when the aircraft suffered technical problems. The provider of the needed spare parts did not provide them in a quick enough timescale. I believe the leasing contracts that the Superjets had did not permit operators to have a stock of spare parts (this is rumour I have heard and I can’t confirm it). However I believe Aeroflot have a different deal and are able to carry a stock of spare parts, thus downtime is a lot less in the event of snags for Aeroflot

Insufficient testing. Poor spares support.

Now the A220-100 and E2-190 are out. In high utilization similar costs and greater seat counts.

Lightsaber


Yes but that's also the reason why we don't all drive the latest car models. For many airlines those models are too expensive and they can't wait for that long. SSJ's selling point is its availability (of the plane, not the spare parts hehe) and price.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 16026
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:12 pm

If a conspiracy, why are 24 parked? That is far too high of a fraction for such a young plane.
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-ssj.htm
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:26 pm

bx737 wrote:
I think that there was poor after sales support especially when the aircraft suffered technical problems. The provider of the needed spare parts did not provide them in a quick enough timescale. I believe the leasing contracts that the Superjets had did not permit operators to have a stock of spare parts (this is rumour I have heard and I can’t confirm it). However I believe Aeroflot have a different deal and are able to carry a stock of spare parts, thus downtime is a lot less in the event of snags for Aeroflot


This.

It´s not that you are not allowed to get your own spare parts pool, quite the contrary, for example the solution to the endemic Sam146 problems from Powerjet and SCAC was to tell their customers "shove it, if your engines are failing then get some spare engines by yourselves". Powerjet would take the engine and repair it as part of the warranty, that is if and when Safran would want to provide for example the combustion chamber replacement, but Powerjet or Safran would not overtake the costs of replacing the engine, the revenue loss the downtime this represents for the airlines, etc. This is the big difference for example to what is going on with the equally problematic P&W GTF, Sam146 customers are being screwed by SCAC/Powerjet and Safran is screwing SCAC simultaneously

The other main issue is getting spare parts from certified third parties, as part of their projected income both SCAC and SJI included selling spare parts all by themselves to SSJ operators, instead of creating 3rd parties that could handle this in a better way and have a much better distribution network. The end result, there is not enough availability of even ancillary components such as pumps, sensors or other small parts that could ground any SSJ in operation in a remote location in Europe or Mexico for example. Supposedly, there are steps being taken to correct this but of course solving this type of problem won't happen overnight. Even SN´s CEO said that the SSJ is not more unreliable per se than other aircraft types, the issue came when you needed to fix some small detail that wouldn´t normally incur in grounding any other type, but that would result in a grounded SSJ. Let´s hope lessons have been learned, specially for the MC-21 which in theory offers a state of the art and very competitive product against the Western duopoly, or what COMAC is offering with the C919.
 
Blerg
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
If a conspiracy, why are 24 parked? That is far too high of a fraction for such a young plane.
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-ssj.htm


Who said anything about a conspiracy? All we said is that there are problems with the supply of spare parts outside of Russia. Also, I might be wrong but I think there are several of them that are not used because they were too heavy, they were one of the early models.
 
ewt340
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:56 pm

Blerg wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
In my opinion, many posters here don't get the full picture. As the previous post from Wayfarer points out, one of the major bottlenecks in support was owed to French conglomerate and major GE partner Safran who delivers CFM engines to Airbus and Boeing besides parts for competing RJ engines such as the CF34.

Did they do it on purpose to sabotage the Russians? Who knows...

The Chinese better watch out for their C929.
Perhaps this is the very reason the Russians are proposing two engine options on the MC-21, with one domestic option.


The Chinese know the project gonna fail and they would lose tons of money of it, they are not that stupid, just a bit tactical. What they are paying for are image, experience and political connections to Russia. Forcing airlines in China to buy it is just a tactic to help soft the blow (basically forcing the airlines to partially funded the failed project and hide the fact that the project gonna lose tons of money for the sake of Nationalism).


I think nationalism has nothing to do with this. Don't forget that the SSJ on its own is a fine aircraft, so the Russians did a good job there. They failed in what came after, technical support. That is why the SSJ doesn't sell anywhere outside Russia.
In September Aeroflot decided to get another 100 SSJ aircraft. Now, we are on an aviation forum where we should know that SU successfully resisted government pressure to get any new Russian-built models (A321 vs Tu-204 for example) and they retired all the older aircraft they inherited from the Soviet era as well as from the 1990s (Tu-134, Tu-154, IL-86, IL-96...).

Now, if they are still committed to the SSJ it can only mean that the aircraft is not bad and that it allows SU to remain competitive on the international markets. C929 will most likely be a failure of epic proportions but what might not be is the joint Sino-Russian widebody aircraft.


Wait, isn't that what I said on my previous comment?

Anyway, this project is all about Nationalism. They wouldn't DEVELOPED it now, if it doesn't make any financial sense or if it wouldn't be successful and break into the Western market. They would have launched it or come up with BETTER specs for the aircraft. Mind you, the Chinese government have tons of money to spare for this project as long as it would be successful. They would take their time to actually created a great aircraft that could actually compete with A320neo and B737MAX.

And can you imagine if SU board member refused to buy SSJ? They probably got poisoned by Putin just like anybody else in Russia. So we shouldn't used this as perimeter at all. Trust me on this one.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:38 am

ewt340 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

The Chinese know the project gonna fail and they would lose tons of money of it, they are not that stupid, just a bit tactical. What they are paying for are image, experience and political connections to Russia. Forcing airlines in China to buy it is just a tactic to help soft the blow (basically forcing the airlines to partially funded the failed project and hide the fact that the project gonna lose tons of money for the sake of Nationalism).


I think nationalism has nothing to do with this. Don't forget that the SSJ on its own is a fine aircraft, so the Russians did a good job there. They failed in what came after, technical support. That is why the SSJ doesn't sell anywhere outside Russia.
In September Aeroflot decided to get another 100 SSJ aircraft. Now, we are on an aviation forum where we should know that SU successfully resisted government pressure to get any new Russian-built models (A321 vs Tu-204 for example) and they retired all the older aircraft they inherited from the Soviet era as well as from the 1990s (Tu-134, Tu-154, IL-86, IL-96...).

Now, if they are still committed to the SSJ it can only mean that the aircraft is not bad and that it allows SU to remain competitive on the international markets. C929 will most likely be a failure of epic proportions but what might not be is the joint Sino-Russian widebody aircraft.


Wait, isn't that what I said on my previous comment?

Anyway, this project is all about Nationalism. They wouldn't DEVELOPED it now, if it doesn't make any financial sense or if it wouldn't be successful and break into the Western market. They would have launched it or come up with BETTER specs for the aircraft. Mind you, the Chinese government have tons of money to spare for this project as long as it would be successful. They would take their time to actually created a great aircraft that could actually compete with A320neo and B737MAX.

And can you imagine if SU board member refused to buy SSJ? They probably got poisoned by Putin just like anybody else in Russia. So we shouldn't used this as perimeter at all. Trust me on this one.


By your "logic", then they should be buying TU-204s and IL-96s all over the place, not only SU but also Rossiya and S7 as well, care to explain why this is not happening? Please provide details as this defies everything you just said.

There's plenty of technical aspects to discuss about the mistakes made for the SSJ, if you are going to muddle it up with stupid conspiracy theories and politics please go somewhere else, a.net does not need people like you.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 1688
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:53 am

Wayfarer515 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I think nationalism has nothing to do with this. Don't forget that the SSJ on its own is a fine aircraft, so the Russians did a good job there. They failed in what came after, technical support. That is why the SSJ doesn't sell anywhere outside Russia.
In September Aeroflot decided to get another 100 SSJ aircraft. Now, we are on an aviation forum where we should know that SU successfully resisted government pressure to get any new Russian-built models (A321 vs Tu-204 for example) and they retired all the older aircraft they inherited from the Soviet era as well as from the 1990s (Tu-134, Tu-154, IL-86, IL-96...).

Now, if they are still committed to the SSJ it can only mean that the aircraft is not bad and that it allows SU to remain competitive on the international markets. C929 will most likely be a failure of epic proportions but what might not be is the joint Sino-Russian widebody aircraft.


Wait, isn't that what I said on my previous comment?

Anyway, this project is all about Nationalism. They wouldn't DEVELOPED it now, if it doesn't make any financial sense or if it wouldn't be successful and break into the Western market. They would have launched it or come up with BETTER specs for the aircraft. Mind you, the Chinese government have tons of money to spare for this project as long as it would be successful. They would take their time to actually created a great aircraft that could actually compete with A320neo and B737MAX.

And can you imagine if SU board member refused to buy SSJ? They probably got poisoned by Putin just like anybody else in Russia. So we shouldn't used this as perimeter at all. Trust me on this one.


By your "logic", then they should be buying TU-204s and IL-96s all over the place, not only SU but also Rossiya and S7 as well, care to explain why this is not happening? Please provide details as this defies everything you just said.

There's plenty of technical aspects to discuss about the mistakes made for the SSJ, if you are going to muddle it up with stupid conspiracy theories and politics please go somewhere else, a.net does not need people like you.

Agree totally.
Even in Cuba, a decision was taken by CU in the early 2000s not to buy more Russian aircraft but rather lease western aircraft, and nobody got poisoned. Not shot. Not even fired.
The fact that the economic and political reality set in and left CU no choice but to buy Russian - and Ukrainian - once again, that is another issue.
 
ewt340
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:56 am

Wayfarer515 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I think nationalism has nothing to do with this. Don't forget that the SSJ on its own is a fine aircraft, so the Russians did a good job there. They failed in what came after, technical support. That is why the SSJ doesn't sell anywhere outside Russia.
In September Aeroflot decided to get another 100 SSJ aircraft. Now, we are on an aviation forum where we should know that SU successfully resisted government pressure to get any new Russian-built models (A321 vs Tu-204 for example) and they retired all the older aircraft they inherited from the Soviet era as well as from the 1990s (Tu-134, Tu-154, IL-86, IL-96...).

Now, if they are still committed to the SSJ it can only mean that the aircraft is not bad and that it allows SU to remain competitive on the international markets. C929 will most likely be a failure of epic proportions but what might not be is the joint Sino-Russian widebody aircraft.


Wait, isn't that what I said on my previous comment?

Anyway, this project is all about Nationalism. They wouldn't DEVELOPED it now, if it doesn't make any financial sense or if it wouldn't be successful and break into the Western market. They would have launched it or come up with BETTER specs for the aircraft. Mind you, the Chinese government have tons of money to spare for this project as long as it would be successful. They would take their time to actually created a great aircraft that could actually compete with A320neo and B737MAX.

And can you imagine if SU board member refused to buy SSJ? They probably got poisoned by Putin just like anybody else in Russia. So we shouldn't used this as perimeter at all. Trust me on this one.


By your "logic", then they should be buying TU-204s and IL-96s all over the place, not only SU but also Rossiya and S7 as well, care to explain why this is not happening? Please provide details as this defies everything you just said.

There's plenty of technical aspects to discuss about the mistakes made for the SSJ, if you are going to muddle it up with stupid conspiracy theories and politics please go somewhere else, a.net does not need people like you.


Oh geez another one..... Here you go:

248 out of 295 orders for SSJ100 come from Russian Airlines or Businesses.
281 out of 302 orders for ARJ21 come from Chinese Airlines or Businesses.
159 out of 175 orders for MC21 come from Russian Airlines or Businesses.
C919 apart from 10 orders from GECAS, all orders from from Chinese Airlines or Businesses.
Il-96 operated only by Russian airlines and Cuban Airlines. Cuba which is basically a Province of Russia.
TU-204 apart from 3 orders from Cairo Aviation. All operators are Russians, Chinese, Cuban, Or North Korean.

Now, stop and take a deep breath and look at the fact Bureaucracy are in play here. Which is completely NORMAL to say the least. So put that tin foil hat and stop getting offended for no reason.
 
ewt340
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:28 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Wait, isn't that what I said on my previous comment?

Anyway, this project is all about Nationalism. They wouldn't DEVELOPED it now, if it doesn't make any financial sense or if it wouldn't be successful and break into the Western market. They would have launched it or come up with BETTER specs for the aircraft. Mind you, the Chinese government have tons of money to spare for this project as long as it would be successful. They would take their time to actually created a great aircraft that could actually compete with A320neo and B737MAX.

And can you imagine if SU board member refused to buy SSJ? They probably got poisoned by Putin just like anybody else in Russia. So we shouldn't used this as perimeter at all. Trust me on this one.


By your "logic", then they should be buying TU-204s and IL-96s all over the place, not only SU but also Rossiya and S7 as well, care to explain why this is not happening? Please provide details as this defies everything you just said.

There's plenty of technical aspects to discuss about the mistakes made for the SSJ, if you are going to muddle it up with stupid conspiracy theories and politics please go somewhere else, a.net does not need people like you.

Agree totally.
Even in Cuba, a decision was taken by CU in the early 2000s not to buy more Russian aircraft but rather lease western aircraft, and nobody got poisoned. Not shot. Not even fired.
The fact that the economic and political reality set in and left CU no choice but to buy Russian - and Ukrainian - once again, that is another issue.


Oh yeah, I remember it. They leased DC-10 from AOM and it crashed. 18 dies. And the B737-200 they leased from Global Air. Which crashed and killed 112 out of 113 people on board of that damned aircraft.

Also if you look at their leasing history, it tend to be extremely short, sometimes only days. Interesting. I guess they allowed these Airlines to leased brand new western aircraft for few days. How nice of them.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 2765
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:32 am

anxo75 wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
The performance currently is abysmal. They are operating with all 7 SSJ for Brussels right now and still do not manage to cover 4 aircraft worth (including reserves) of flying.

Their SSJ100's are flying to where they are intented to fly...You call that "abysmal perfomance?


Imagine if American took 3 frames as backup for every 4 aircraft needed. You plane tickets would be very expensive. They have not had that rte of failure sense the beginning of airlines.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 2765
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:59 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Aerospace is very fragmented in Russia.
You have the designing company, the manufacturing company, the marketing company, the financing company, the maintenance company, individual parts suppliers.
When it's time to do the support part, they all look at eachother and nobody does anything.


The problem with this statement is the US & UE companies also have Design, manufacture, marketing, finance & individual part suppliers. The difference is they don't ignore each other, as much.
 
anxo75
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:40 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:28 am

alfa164 wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
Funny thing is that the CRJs replacing them from Air Nostrum have been equally unreliable if not worse. Reading the pax. comments on tripadvisor is quite entertaining to say the least. Not all the problems Cityjet had were because of the SSJ, and sooner rather than later this bubble will also burst.

My 2 cents



I'll bet SN will have much more patience with the CRJ...Is there anyone still believing the problem is the SSJ unreliability?
 
alfa164
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:34 am

anxo75 wrote:
Is there anyone still believing the problem is the SSJ unreliability?


Everyone (except Russian trolls) understands that the problem is SSJ unreliability, whether it be Brussels Airlines, InterJet, or anybody else...

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Blerg
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
Even this "troll" admits the aircraft quality its good, so STFU.


Even your quote says the plane is unreliable. Maybe you should follow your own advice?


Yes and it seems like you need to re-read the CEO's statement to know why it's unreliable.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 16308
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:08 pm

Blerg wrote:
Yes and it seems like you need to re-read the CEO's statement to know why it's unreliable.


Unreliable is unreliable. :wave:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 854
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:11 pm

Having flown a couple of times on the Cityjet SSJ, I have to say it doesn’t compare to the E190 or CRJ. You have to duck when boarding the SSJ as the door is low. The plane is noisy (the Director of Stockholm Bromma is quoted in this month’s Airports of the World magazine saying that the SSJ was very noisy at BMA).
 
Blerg
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:53 pm

scbriml wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Yes and it seems like you need to re-read the CEO's statement to know why it's unreliable.


Unreliable is unreliable. :wave:


Yes, you are right, if I buy a car without knowing how to drive it, the manufacturer is at fault, not me. SSJ might have some issues with supplying spare parts but the aircraft itself is not a bad one.
 
User avatar
nordikcam
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:44 pm

Re: Brussels Airlines to ditch Sukhoi Superjets?

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:59 pm

Blerg wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Yes and it seems like you need to re-read the CEO's statement to know why it's unreliable.


Unreliable is unreliable. :wave:


Yes, you are right, if I buy a car without knowing how to drive it, the manufacturer is at fault, not me. SSJ might have some issues with supplying spare parts but the aircraft itself is not a bad one.


And from a passenger point of view it's really interesting to have a series of canceled flights because the plane has all the qualities in flight but that without spare parts it must stay on the ground! What a pleasure to know that we will not have to support the failures of this aircraft at SN. Thank you SN!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos