bob75013
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Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:07 pm

so says it's CEO.

Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because DL would actually have to compete for business in Atlanta for the first time in decades.

Bastian laughingly was quoted in the article ""The secret to the success of what we have is the biggest airport in the world," Delta CEO Ed Bastian told Atlanta Business Chronicle during a lengthy interview Friday. "When you divert away your resources, you become sub-scale.Bastian noted the successes other metropolitan areas have enjoyed hosting multiple airports, including New York City and Chicago. But he said Atlanta features a different strategic model that's working well here. ..."

Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.

A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"

Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... yptr=yahoo
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:10 pm

What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.
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bob75013
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:17 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.


There's HUGE difference between the TSA pre lines and the regular TSA lines
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:22 pm

DL keeps its hub cities in fear of what they will do. I would love to see an 2nd airport for ATL, especially for the northern suburbs. Of course DL will aggressively oppose a 2nd ATL airport that will impact their their financial situation. The key is for public officials to ignore the threat and decide what's best for the population, not one corporation. So far they've failed to do so.
 
LittleSprocket
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:24 pm

From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:28 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.


If you book a flight with an airline that requires you to connect in Atlanta, both your flights will be out of the same airport.
 
777PHX
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:43 pm

Of course DL is annoyed. If another ATL airport is built, DL loses a lot of the leverage they currently enjoy.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:47 pm

Delta is one of the biggest bully airlines out there when it comes to dealing with local city government. It is in Delta's favor to be the only game in town so why would they ever support bringing in competition?
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:49 pm

bob75013 wrote:
A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"

Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?


I'm not sure a second airport's role in competition is as important of an argument for a second airport, it's not like a second airport would suddenly allow a competitor to slay DL. ATL being the only commercial airport in the region that is inconvenient for certain areas and requires locals to deal with the hassle of a mega hub is probably more of a compelling case, similar to what we just saw with PAE. ATL has had competition over the years Southwest, AirTran, increasingly Spirit, EA...I'm not sure that simply existing at another airport instead of ATL would really give them some huge leg up except with some very specific regions depending on where a new airport would be built...I't's not like Southwest is only competitive in Dallas simply because it isn't at DFW.
 
LittleSprocket
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:52 pm

NYPECO wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.


If you book a flight with an airline that requires you to connect in Atlanta, both your flights will be out of the same airport.


See that's where I am doubtful., if you look at flights out of the NYC area, you may land in JFK and depart through LGA.
 
bob75013
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:00 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"

Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?


I'm not sure a second airport's role in competition is as important of an argument for a second airport, .


Oh, but it is. WN would not have survived at ORD or DFW if it had initiated service there instead o f at DAL and MDW. DL would have been killed at EWR had it tried to muscle Continental in the old days -- it was much easier to go at a different NYC area airport. Ease of access is the key.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:01 am

bob75013 wrote:
so says it's CEO.

Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because DL would actually have to compete for business in Atlanta for the first time in decades.

Bastian laughingly was quoted in the article ""The secret to the success of what we have is the biggest airport in the world," Delta CEO Ed Bastian told Atlanta Business Chronicle during a lengthy interview Friday. "When you divert away your resources, you become sub-scale.Bastian noted the successes other metropolitan areas have enjoyed hosting multiple airports, including New York City and Chicago. But he said Atlanta features a different strategic model that's working well here. ..."

Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.

A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"

Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?
At the moment? Delta "Rules the Roost" in Atlanta. Something they might NOT be able to do anywhere ELSE. Were I them? I might not want another airport in Atlanta either! But? It's Not their choice!! The question is? Atlanta has Marta going into the terminal at ATL Where ELSE can they put another airport with the convenience and Infrastructure of Hartsfield / Jackson international? Another international airport would take YEARS to build and HIGHLY unlikely to be in the city of Atlanta nor close by. Nor is it likely to have I-75. I- 85 or I-20 in any crossroad near by.. They had it all together when they located ATL where they did.
Could it happen? I suppose so. Can Delta stop it? I doubt it. will they Serve the airport? Your guess is as good as mine..

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bob75013
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:06 am

LittleSprocket wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.


If you book a flight with an airline that requires you to connect in Atlanta, both your flights will be out of the same airport.


See that's where I am doubtful., if you look at flights out of the NYC area, you may land in JFK and depart through LGA.


In every one of those cases you are warned about that when booking a reservation. You MUST confirm that you really want to leave from a different airport than the one you arrived before you can book a flight.

WN customers at MDW don't get confued about going to ORD. and AA and UA customers at ORD don't get confused about going to MDW. The same situation and lack of confusion ouccurs at DAL and DFW with AA and WN pax.
Last edited by bob75013 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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enilria
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:31 am

#1 Delta has fought a 2nd Atlanta airport forever.
#2 ATL is the largest airport in the world by a few measures. I wonder how far down the list you have to go before you get to another city without a second commercial airport? Atlanta doesn’t even have a quasi-second airport. What is even the closest airport with commercial, non EAS service? CHA? Lol
 
jetlanta
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:48 am

Oh this stupid topic again.

So who is going to pay for it and where are you going to put it? Anybody who understands the aviation and political landscape in Atlanta knows this is going no where. ATL is better located than any possible alternate site. It is also dramatically cheaper to grow than building a 2nd rate, poorly-located reliever airport. Georgia has much better things to do with its resources that fund billions of dollars (and thats what it will cost) to build an white elephant. And if you think Georgia politicians want to get into this fight, you don't understand local politics at all.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:51 am

So the Atlanta would try to have its own version of the “Wright amendment”?
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dochawk2
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am

I’m in Atlanta every two weeks for business for the past 18 years. While I don’t live there, I consider it my second home. A second airport sounds nice, but what has been proposed is a small airport (that couldn’t grow larger) that would feature airlines like Spirit, Frontier, possibly SW, Jet Blue, or Alligent. With only 6-10 gates, that’s no competition. Plus the highway system would make it horrible even if you lived on the north end of town. Pipe dream.
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2travel2know2
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:44 am

1 Add at least 6 gates and ample terminal/parking space, including F.I.S. to CHA.
2 Upgrade rail which goes just in front of CHA so there are 8-10 return trains per day between CHA and Atlanta, traveling time must be at max 60 minutes.
3 Market improved airport as Chattanooga-Atlanta.
4 Wait for airlines to flock over-there.
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c933103
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:54 am

Atlanta is also a smaller city than Chicago or New York?
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incitatus
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:05 am

This is not so simple as a second airport is just bad for Delta. A second airport is bad for ATL. ATL has a lot of nonstop service. An airport in the northern suburbs will create service that will draw traffic away from those nonstops. For example, passengers may choose to fly from the second airport, make a connection in ORD, EWR or PHL and head to Europe, instead of choosing a nonstop from ATL. ATL loses, there should be no doubt about that. Of course, it ATL loses, so does Delta because it has such a massive operation there. It is not unreasonable to expect that an airport with some scale north of Atlanta will cost ATL some nonstop service.
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SFOtoORD
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:14 am

incitatus wrote:
This is not so simple as a second airport is just bad for Delta. A second airport is bad for ATL. ATL has a lot of nonstop service. An airport in the northern suburbs will create service that will draw traffic away from those nonstops. For example, passengers may choose to fly from the second airport, make a connection in ORD, EWR or PHL and head to Europe, instead of choosing a nonstop from ATL. ATL loses, there should be no doubt about that. Of course, it ATL loses, so does Delta because it has such a massive operation there. It is not unreasonable to expect that an airport with some scale north of Atlanta will cost ATL some nonstop service.


You’re presupposing that this is a zero sum game. Atlanta continues to be a fast growing city that like other big cities eventually needs a second airport to support its growth.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:16 am

bob75013 wrote:
Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.


Building a new airport doesn't fix that.
 
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stl07
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:19 am

Cubsrule wrote:
What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.

10 min, for precheck!! That's super long. Pre check is walk up or a max of 5 min on a bad day in almost every airport I have been to including megahubs like LAX.
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flyaustralian12
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:26 am

bob75013 wrote:
so says it's CEO.

Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because DL would actually have to compete for business in Atlanta for the first time in decades.

Bastian laughingly was quoted in the article ""The secret to the success of what we have is the biggest airport in the world," Delta CEO Ed Bastian told Atlanta Business Chronicle during a lengthy interview Friday. "When you divert away your resources, you become sub-scale.Bastian noted the successes other metropolitan areas have enjoyed hosting multiple airports, including New York City and Chicago. But he said Atlanta features a different strategic model that's working well here. ..."

Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.

A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"

Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... yptr=yahoo



It's just like Melbourne Australia.


MEL Tullamarine is the main international airport.

MEB Essendon is old international airport & closer to city. Only allowed to take up to MTOW of 55000 kgs now I think it is. which means F70s & F100s land there a lot, mostly for sporting charters.

AVV Avalon, now designated international. Bit further from CBD ie west near Geelong. Was mostly used as maintenance base by Qantas, but now has a few domestic flights (Jetstar) & Air Asia X is switching from apparently high cost & congested MEL to apparently low cost & not congested at all AVV.

Jetstar received some sort of subsidy to continue flights eg.AVV/SYD . Think this was a political decision from local left Victorian (Melbourne is the capital of state) govt as think surrounding areas vote left.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:46 am

stl07 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.

10 min, for precheck!! That's super long. Pre check is walk up or a max of 5 min on a bad day in almost every airport I have been to including megahubs like LAX.


Try SEA in the morning or DEN or SJU pretty much any time.
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compensateme
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:53 am

Time to inject some facts into this discussion... ~70% of ATL’s traffic merely transfers there, the lion’s share on DL. The reason ATL is so congested is because of the DL hub. DL has oodles of capacity built out, that’s its currently paying for in leasing agreements, at CVG, DTW, MSP, etc.

ATL is a recipient of disproportionate level of transfer traffic on DL because status quo, it makes the most sense cost wise. For example, more people connect via ATL than DTW or MSP en route ROC-LAX because ATL can support larger aircraft, thereby enabling it to offer lower costs for the journey and pass lower fares along to the customer.

Expansion will cost billions, which will largely be paid by DL (given it’s the 800 lb gorilla). That will heavily increase the cost of flowing passenger through there. Given that it’s cheaper for DL to move portions of its flow traffic elsewhere, it’s not surprising they oppose a large expansion project. Remember, ATL only needs to expand because of ~70M connecting passengers flowing there.
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SFOtoORD
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:54 am

compensateme wrote:
Time to inject some facts into this discussion... ~70% of ATL’s traffic merely transfers there, the lion’s share on DL. The reason ATL is so congested is because of the DL hub. DL has oodles of capacity built out, that’s its currently paying for in leasing agreements, at CVG, DTW, MSP, etc.

ATL is a recipient of disproportionate level of transfer traffic on DL because status quo, it makes the most sense cost wise. For example, more people connect via ATL than DTW or MSP en route to LAX because ATL can support larger aircraft, thereby enabling it to offer lower costs for the journey and pass lower fares along to the customer.

Expansion will cost billions, which will largely be paid by DL (given it’s the 800 lb gorilla). That will heavily increase the cost of flowing passenger through there. Given that it’s cheaper for DL to move portions of its flow traffic elsewhere, it’s not surprising they oppose a large expansion project. Remember, ATL only needs to expand because of ~70M connecting passengers flowing there.


You could be DL’s PR person.
 
ScottB
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:57 am

jetlanta wrote:
Georgia has much better things to do with its resources that fund billions of dollars (and thats what it will cost) to build an white elephant.


I don't think anyone is talking about a project of that grandiose scale. I suspect any sort of "second commercial Atlanta-area airport" project would be akin to the privately-developed terminal at PAE or a low-cost project like the PGD terminal or the new LGB terminal which came in under $50 million even in the high-cost L.A. area. Maybe a carrier like G4 or NK would be willing to fund the project out of its own pocket.

jetlanta wrote:
ATL is better located than any possible alternate site.


It's not well-located for the northern suburbs especially in light of Atlanta's notorious traffic.

bob75013 wrote:
Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.


A second airport isn't necessarily the solution to that particular problem. Expanding the security checkpoints, increasing TSA staffing to fully utilize the existing space, or improving TSA's efficiency in screening passengers (LOL) would be more appropriate. A second commercial airport in the region would really be more about offering less hassle in getting to the airport for some of the population.
 
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stl07
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:00 am

Cubsrule wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.

10 min, for precheck!! That's super long. Pre check is walk up or a max of 5 min on a bad day in almost every airport I have been to including megahubs like LAX.


Try SEA in the morning or DEN or SJU pretty much any time.

Haha, I live in STL and usually fly out of C, so any wait is a "long" one, even non precheck
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tys777
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:05 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
1 Add at least 6 gates and ample terminal/parking space, including F.I.S. to CHA.
2 Upgrade rail which goes just in front of CHA so there are 8-10 return trains per day between CHA and Atlanta, traveling time must be at max 60 minutes.
3 Market improved airport as Chattanooga-Atlanta.
4 Wait for airlines to flock over-there.


1) CHA is working on a new master plan that will add more gates. Morning rush is a but crowded. 3-5 more gates is ideal,potentially giving them room to attract F9/NK.

2) I have my doubts that high speed rail will ever happen, despite the SE being s perfect region for it.

3) They already market heavily to N GA and N AL. They capture further into Georgia than most people know.

4) Flock? Who is left to serve CHA? F9? G4? Where CHA suffers is proximity to 3 other airports (TYS, BNA, and ATL). I've flown into/out of all 3 of those instead of CHA. Fly into ATL and catch groom is the typical option. I just dont see CHA ever being a viable 2nd ATL airport.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:12 am

ScottB wrote:
I don't think anyone is talking about a project of that grandiose scale. I suspect any sort of "second commercial Atlanta-area airport" project would be akin to the privately-developed terminal at PAE or a low-cost project like the PGD terminal or the new LGB terminal which came in under $50 million even in the high-cost L.A. area. Maybe a carrier like G4 or NK would be willing to fund the project out of pocket
.

While you’re correct that LGB spent about $45M on its Greyhound-type terminal, since 2010, It has spent nearly $250M to modernize the entire complex and recently proposed spending another $85M to complete the project. And of course, it didn’t have to purchase the land, build the roadways or runways.

I’d suspect one would be pressed to build a second airport from the ground up in the Atlanta area for less than $1B, even if it’s a small, Greyhound-type terminal. Environmental costs, soundproofing, etc. isn’t cheap, even in a dark red state.
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jetmatt777
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:19 am

In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:55 am

compensateme wrote:
ScottB wrote:
I don't think anyone is talking about a project of that grandiose scale. I suspect any sort of "second commercial Atlanta-area airport" project would be akin to the privately-developed terminal at PAE or a low-cost project like the PGD terminal or the new LGB terminal which came in under $50 million even in the high-cost L.A. area. Maybe a carrier like G4 or NK would be willing to fund the project out of pocket
.
, fill
While you’re correct that LGB spent about $45M on its Greyhound-type terminal, since 2010, It has spent nearly $250M to modernize the entire complex and recently proposed spending another $85M to complete the project. And of course, it didn’t have to purchase the land, build the roadways or runways.

I’d suspect one would be pressed to build a second airport from the ground up in the Atlanta area for less than $1B, even if it’s a small, Greyhound-type terminal. Environmental costs, soundproofing, etc. isn’t cheap, even in a dark red state.

$1 B - more likely $3B+ for any sort of greenfield site. The amount of earthmoving, in-fill, drainage, and environementa in most areas of ATL is pretty extensive.

DL is going to continue to attempt to push more capacity through ATL mostly through increased aircraft size/seats per departure.

A second airport would not dramatically change the competitive landscape for the region.
 
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deltadawg
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:14 am

LZU is the obvious choice but it will NEVER happen in my lifetime.
1) No one wants a new airport in their backyard
2) Money? Who will pay for $3-4billion up front
3) ATL will keep expanding - current plan is the addition of Concourse G, then H & I for a total of 30-35 new gates iirc
4) Perhaps with a central planning committee with REAL control unlike the GRTA a new airport could happen - once again maybe in 40-50 years
5) DL has lived in ATL with competition for the last 70 years and is not going anywhere - Eastern was the biggest competitor, F9, Southern, WN, NK, Republic to some degree, NW, PeoplExpress,
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Atlwarrior
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:41 am

This is really nothing new.
 
notdownnlocked
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:33 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.


And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.

Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.
 
bob75013
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:10 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
compensateme wrote:
ScottB wrote:
I don't think anyone is talking about a project of that grandiose scale. I suspect any sort of "second commercial Atlanta-area airport" project would be akin to the privately-developed terminal at PAE or a low-cost project like the PGD terminal or the new LGB terminal which came in under $50 million even in the high-cost L.A. area. Maybe a carrier like G4 or NK would be willing to fund the project out of pocket
.
, fill
While you’re correct that LGB spent about $45M on its Greyhound-type terminal, since 2010, It has spent nearly $250M to modernize the entire complex and recently proposed spending another $85M to complete the project. And of course, it didn’t have to purchase the land, build the roadways or runways.

I’d suspect one would be pressed to build a second airport from the ground up in the Atlanta area for less than $1B, even if it’s a small, Greyhound-type terminal. Environmental costs, soundproofing, etc. isn’t cheap, even in a dark red state.

$1 B - more likely $3B+ for any sort of greenfield site. The amount of earthmoving, in-fill, drainage, and environementa in most areas of ATL is pretty extensive.

DL is going to continue to attempt to push more capacity through ATL mostly through increased aircraft size/seats per departure.

A second airport would not dramatically change the competitive landscape for the region.


The tab to build the new terminal at DAL -- the 20 gate terminal was $500 million, and the cost was inflated because it had to stage construction around the demolition of the old one..
 
bob75013
Topic Author
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:15 pm

notdownnlocked wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.


And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.

Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.


Actually, the whole thread came about because Ed Ba stien shot of is mouth to the Atlanta business journal.

Actually, I could care less about DL at DAL, Do I think Dl is squatting. Yup. I'm just waiting for 2024 for a massive WN expansion in Dallas.
That IS what I care about.

Glad to see you are a regular reader and fan of my posts.

And in more other news, enjoy the rumble of reverse thrusters in Coppell with every landing at DFW.
 
alfa164
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:19 pm

notdownnlocked wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.

And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.
Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.


Yep - in other news, WN doesn't want anybody to be able to fly out of DAL except.... WN.

It would be a lot less expensive to add a few gates at DAL than to build a new airport in ATL. And a lot more valuable to the flying public.
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AUxyz
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:36 pm

Delta has reason to be scared. Much of Atlanta's wealth is concentrated to the north of the city. Coincidentally, everyone talks about building a new airport there. A new airport that gives just a few gates to American, United ad Southwest might sway big spenders who would have non-stop flights on another airline to many of their destinations and be willing to tolerate connections elsewhere to avoid traffic.

To the Atlanta region, though I think having the airport south of the city is actually good. It is a source of jobs and a powerful draw for comapines which use it to locate in the south part of the city which is ignored so often. In addition, the scale of the airport supports flights that would otherwise not be possible: having a choice of flights to Stuttgart or Dusseldorf or Frankfurt or Munich is a powerful incentive for any company that needs to maintain ties to Germany for example. If the hub is less expensive, some of those flights likely go way, or aren't started, and companies may be less likely to locate in Atlanta. If I were a regional leader, I would do my best to avoid that risk.


I have experienced the struggle of getting out of a my car and through security in Atlanta, but there are much cheaper ways around the problem than building a new airport and potentially reducing the effectiveness of the hub. There have to be cheaper options than a whole new airport though. The region is investing in public transit again; Marta trains are not currently full, and could be run more often. Communication, marketing, and train operations could sway people to use Marta instead of driving, and either paying for parking or sitting in the road close to the terminal. As more and more O&D passengers come, there are certainly wasys to expand the security check area to improve throughput.
 
dmg626
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:52 pm

Atl is unique in that it’s airspace while very busy doesn’t have the issues that NY, LA, Chicago, etc have with multiple airports in a relatively small area that leads to congestion with arrivals and departures procedures. Adding another airport to the mix would now add to ATC workload and additional staffing on top of un economical procedures for aircraft arrivals and departures, ex flying longer at lower altitudes to stay out of the busier ATL airspace.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:35 pm

deltadawg wrote:
LZU is the obvious choice but it will NEVER happen in my lifetime.
1) No one wants a new airport in their backyard
2) Money? Who will pay for $3-4billion up front
3) ATL will keep expanding - current plan is the addition of Concourse G, then H & I for a total of 30-35 new gates iirc
4) Perhaps with a central planning committee with REAL control unlike the GRTA a new airport could happen - once again maybe in 40-50 years
5) DL has lived in ATL with competition for the last 70 years and is not going anywhere - Eastern was the biggest competitor, F9, Southern, WN, NK, Republic to some degree, NW, PeoplExpress,

LZU has a few negatives, correct about the NIMBY, second is it already space constrained. All of the land around it has been built out. This makes expansion even more expensive. Rumor has it that back in the 90's WN was looking at LZU as away into the Atlanta market. They were willing to pay for the runway expansion. The NIMBYs and Delta political pull killed it.

The second airport concept has been around for a long time. The city bought the land for a second airport a long time ago in the Dawsonville area. I think as part of the fifth runway deal that had to agree to a forever wild tag being put on the land.

Another candidate is Paulding County Airport in Dallas, GA. Propeller Investments went there after the deal for LZU went south. There have been numerous lawsuits by NIMBYs, backed by Delta. So far it has gone nowhere. One big hit for this airport is access. It may only be 30 miles NW from downtown, but even from the northside, it is easier to get to ATL.
 
notdownnlocked
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:37 pm

bob75013 wrote:
notdownnlocked wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.


And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.

Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.


Actually, the whole thread came about because Ed Ba stien shot of is mouth to the Atlanta business journal.

Actually, I could care less about DL at DAL, Do I think Dl is squatting. Yup. I'm just waiting for 2024 for a massive WN expansion in Dallas.
That IS what I care about.

Glad to see you are a regular reader and fan of my posts.

And in more other news, enjoy the rumble of reverse thrusters in Coppell with every landing at DFW.


Come on now, "reverse thrusters"??? I see you are not in the technology based side of your enterprise. I love the planes flying over but no T/R noise here. The only noise and smoke here is from the Hard8 bbq place close.
 
notdownnlocked
Posts: 980
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:46 pm

Regarding ATL-what is so good about the Northern suburbs as compared with what is within the Southern suburbs of the airport?
 
bob75013
Topic Author
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:03 pm

notdownnlocked wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
notdownnlocked wrote:

And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.

Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.


Actually, the whole thread came about because Ed Ba stien shot of is mouth to the Atlanta business journal.

Actually, I could care less about DL at DAL, Do I think Dl is squatting. Yup. I'm just waiting for 2024 for a massive WN expansion in Dallas.
That IS what I care about.

Glad to see you are a regular reader and fan of my posts.

And in more other news, enjoy the rumble of reverse thrusters in Coppell with every landing at DFW.


well if you live in 75019, you live with reverse thruster noise every time the wind blows from the south. Spend an afternoon on the west side of Denton Tap

Come on now, "reverse thrusters"??? I see you are not in the technology based side of your enterprise. I love the planes flying over but no T/R noise here. The only noise and smoke here is from the Hard8 bbq place close.


Well if you live in 75019 you live with house rattling rumble every time the wind is from the south. Spend an afternoon on the west side of Denton Tap and get back to me.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:05 pm

There have been at least four ATL alternate airport proposals over time that I know of--Paulding County, Dawsonville, Gwinnett, and Charlie Brown (WN toyed with the idea of starting service there years ago). This is not new, nor is it likely to go away, and nor is it likely to happen anytime soon.
Last edited by AVLAirlineFreq on Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5275
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:44 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.


During the morning the TSA line pushes almost an hour a wait. I've waited a few times in pre-check for 50+ minutes.
 
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drerx7
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:15 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.


If you book a flight with an airline that requires you to connect in Atlanta, both your flights will be out of the same airport.


See that's where I am doubtful., if you look at flights out of the NYC area, you may land in JFK and depart through LGA.

That is a small percentage of intineraries... like 2%. No airline is going to have two different airport connections routinely... do they exist...yes...but very few.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:18 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.


Maybe to secure a lower price. Everything centralized into one airport means lack of competition and therefor higher prices.

Besides, the second airport would not be for connections so for connecting passengers nothing would change. The second airport would strictly handle O/D traffic.

Compare this to Amsterdam. There is only one Amsterdam airport which is operating at the boundaries of it's capacity. It's more than full and can't expand. Therefor they're currently expanding Lelystad to become a second airport for Amsterdam. The connecting traffic will however stay where it is, Lelystad will take the LCCs and holiday flights. Those don't contribute to the hub function of Amsterdam and can therefor just as well operate out of Lelystad.
 
nikeherc
Posts: 656
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:28 pm

ATL is a major reason the city of Atlanta punches above its weight. Because of the connections available at ATL, the entire southeast has access to the world. No reliever airport could offer the diversity of routes found at ATL. Why would I want to fly out of a smaller airport and make connections when I could get there in one shot from ATL. Anything that diminishes ATL would be bad for Atlanta.
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