Cubsrule
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:31 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
There have been at least four ATL alternate airport proposals over time that I know of--Paulding County, Dawsonville, Gwinnett, and Charlie Brown (WN toyed with the idea of starting service there years ago). This is not new, nor is it likely to go away, and nor is it likely to happen anytime soon.


Part of the problem with the discussion, I think, is that ATL already has relievers with service patterns similar to what people suggest in these proposals. Someone in a place like Braselton can already head up to GSP (and has had AHN as an option at various points in the not-so-distant past). Is LZU such a more convenient option that gobs of people who don’t use the extant non-ATL options would flock to it? The history of service failures at AHN and MCN (and lack of options at CSG) along with only limited service at the likes of AGS and CHA suggests no.
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:37 pm

Or they could invest billions in major updates because the airport itself look rather dated,. When one thinks of what the busiest airport on earth would look like, Atlanta ain’t it. Very dated. Though I suspect it won’t be the busiest for much longer with Dubai and Beijing closing the gap quickly.
 
bob75013
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:41 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.


Maybe to secure a lower price. Everything centralized into one airport means lack of competition and therefor higher prices.

Besides, the second airport would not be for connections so for connecting passengers nothing would change. The second airport would strictly handle O/D traffic.

.


Actually the second airport could be for connections -- just not by the same company that serves ATL

Examples: WN connects at DAL / AA connects at DFW ; WN connects at MDW / AA and UAL connect at ORD ; UA connects a EWR / DL connects at LGA
 
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:49 pm

nikeherc wrote:
ATL is a major reason the city of Atlanta punches above its weight. Because of the connections available at ATL, the entire southeast has access to the world. No reliever airport could offer the diversity of routes found at ATL. Why would I want to fly out of a smaller airport and make connections when I could get there in one shot from ATL. Anything that diminishes ATL would be bad for Atlanta.



How many times have we heard those excuses. (DFW/DAL) (MDW/ORD)

It was that logic that gave birth to the Wright Amendment.

1) A reliever airport doesn't need to offer the diversity of routes that the main airport does. IT would need to offer enough nonstop service to enough destinations to make it worthwhile to consider.

2) "Anything that diminishes ATL would be bad for Atlanta" and yet ORD and DFW are among the 5 busiest airports in the US even though they have been "diminished by DAL and MDW... LAX has been" diminished" by 5,6 (I forget how many) other airports, and yet it too is one of the 5 largest US airports.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:13 pm

nikeherc wrote:
ATL is a major reason the city of Atlanta punches above its weight. Because of the connections available at ATL, the entire southeast has access to the world. No reliever airport could offer the diversity of routes found at ATL. Why would I want to fly out of a smaller airport and make connections when I could get there in one shot from ATL. Anything that diminishes ATL would be bad for Atlanta.


It doesn't have to offer diversity of routes, it has to offer a few sustainable routes. Why would you want to use it? Because it's cheaper! Make connections? Not if your destination is one of the few destinations served directly from that second airport. It would be a niche, but that doesn't mean it couldn't work.

Look at Dusseldorf for example, it has of course the big Dusseldorf international airport but next to that it also has the smaller Dusseldorf Weeze airport. Why do people fly out of Weeze? Because it's cheaper. Just about every destination served from Weeze is also served from Dusseldorf, but not for the same price. If your destination isn't served from Weeze then you can just use Dusseldorf, but if it is then why not check it out?
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:38 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Or they could invest billions in major updates because the airport itself look rather dated,. When one thinks of what the busiest airport on earth would look like, Atlanta ain’t it. Very dated. Though I suspect it won’t be the busiest for much longer with Dubai and Beijing closing the gap quickly.


FWIW most of the older concourses at ATL are currently undergoing extensive renovation.
 
winginit
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:43 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Or they could invest billions in major updates because the airport itself look rather dated,.When one thinks of what the busiest airport on earth would look like, Atlanta ain’t it. Very dated.


Airport aesthetics don't equate to functionality, and people certainly don't choose an O&D or connecting airport based on its looks. In short, the looks of an airport don't matter so long as it functions, which, like it or not, ATL does exceptionally well given its size.

CitizenJustin wrote:
Though I suspect it won’t be the busiest for much longer with Dubai and Beijing closing the gap quickly.


Beijing Daxing is opening next year which will likely curb PEK's pursuit of the title. DXB maybe but there's still a ways to go.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:53 pm

If Orlando can have the smaller Sanford airport on the north end, Atlanta sure as heck can have something similar on its north end. Traffic around Atlanta is a absolute nightmare and the entire northern third of the state should have a small domestic SFB style airport. Ludicrous that the entire state only has Atlanta and Savannah to fly into. And its the biggest state east of the Mississippi landmass wise.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:54 pm

Just my .02....1. MDW, HOU, DAL, all incumbent airports that were replaced by larger facilities. The key to their success was a successful start up. Look at places like BKL, DET, GYY or even NEW that didn't get that opportunity.
2. Take a look at how apoplectic Northside communities got over MARTA rail extensions. You think they will roll over for an airport?
Any legitimate proposal will be met with well-financed legal opposition that we would take years and millions to resolve.
3. What's the payoff? After hundreds of millions of environmental impact studies, NIMBY lawsuits, construction, etc you get a modest >10 gate facility with cheapish flights to leisure destinations. And that's assuming G4, NK, F9 or 'Moxy' would be interested in a high enplanement cost, untested market.
 
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:17 pm

Atlanta doesn’t need another airport. ATL is constantly being improved. Security is the worst problem, and that can be improved. The D concourse is being improved. For those of you who don’t remember Eastern had concourse A and half of B. Delta had the the other half of B and all of C. Everybody else had D and T was international. Eastern failed and Delta grew. Atlanta was already bigger than ORD when Eastern collapsed. It wasn’t lack of competition that lead to ATL’s growth, it was geography and Delta. Businesses locate in Atlanta and Charlotte because of their airports, not despite them. Anything that runs the risk of reducing service at ATL risks the economic engine of Atlanta. I lived in Atlanta, and wouldn’t move back on a bet, but if I had to travel for a living again, I would just as soon do it from ATL as anywhere.
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usdcaguy
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:12 pm

I can see where it would be nice to have an airport that served the NW burbs and Athens, but I see a second airport in that area struggling. People want the cheapest flight possible, and they want nonstop service. If flights from the second airport were too few and far between, people might experience a lot of pain in an IROP situation and go right back to using ATL. I see a secondary airport only being useful for flights into a handful of places like CHI/DAL/MCO/TPA/MIA/NYC/WAS on regional jets. Beyond that, I think people would hop in their car in spite of the traffic and drive down to ATL where frequency is more plentiful.

If service from a secondary airport were to be seriously considered, one option may be for Gainesville to invest in commercial service from their airport. Although it likely could not market itself as Gainesville-Atlanta Regional Airport, it is conveniently located off I-985 and is about the same distance from the northwest Atlanta burbs as ATL. It would become the closest airport to the mountains in north GA and southwest NC and is less than an hour from Athens, which has struggled to support air service from its field.
 
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Bjm0517
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:23 pm

Well, unless they can convince the Atlantas city goverment not to build one (but with their power over the airport in Atlanta might not be impossible)it can be built

Atlanta doesn’t need a second airport, unless it’s for GA or Biz jets it isn’t needed, ATL is improving security, witch is the main issue there, so unless this airport is for GA planes or Buisness Jets, I don’t think Atlanta’s gonna get another airport.
 
incitatus
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
incitatus wrote:
This is not so simple as a second airport is just bad for Delta. A second airport is bad for ATL. ATL has a lot of nonstop service. An airport in the northern suburbs will create service that will draw traffic away from those nonstops. For example, passengers may choose to fly from the second airport, make a connection in ORD, EWR or PHL and head to Europe, instead of choosing a nonstop from ATL. ATL loses, there should be no doubt about that. Of course, it ATL loses, so does Delta because it has such a massive operation there. It is not unreasonable to expect that an airport with some scale north of Atlanta will cost ATL some nonstop service.


You’re presupposing that this is a zero sum game. Atlanta continues to be a fast growing city that like other big cities eventually needs a second airport to support its growth.


It will always be a loss to ATL. In the presence of a second airport, ATL is going to be smaller than it could be - in the short term or in the long term.
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Atlwarrior
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:42 pm

AUxyz wrote:
Delta has reason to be scared. Much of Atlanta's wealth is concentrated to the north of the city. Coincidentally, everyone talks about building a new airport there. A new airport that gives just a few gates to American, United ad Southwest might sway big spenders who would have non-stop flights on another airline to many of their destinations and be willing to tolerate connections elsewhere to avoid traffic.

To the Atlanta region, though I think having the airport south of the city is actually good. It is a source of jobs and a powerful draw for comapines which use it to locate in the south part of the city which is ignored so often. In addition, the scale of the airport supports flights that would otherwise not be possible: having a choice of flights to Stuttgart or Dusseldorf or Frankfurt or Munich is a powerful incentive for any company that needs to maintain ties to Germany for example. If the hub is less expensive, some of those flights likely go way, or aren't started, and companies may be less likely to locate in Atlanta. If I were a regional leader, I would do my best to avoid that risk.


I have experienced the struggle of getting out of a my car and through security in Atlanta, but there are much cheaper ways around the problem than building a new airport and potentially reducing the effectiveness of the hub. There have to be cheaper options than a whole new airport though. The region is investing in public transit again; Marta trains are not currently full, and could be run more often. Communication, marketing, and train operations could sway people to use Marta instead of driving, and either paying for parking or sitting in the road close to the terminal. As more and more O&D passengers come, there are certainly wasys to expand the security check area to improve throughput.

Not true! Atlanta has plenty of wealth on the South, East, and West side of the city as well.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:43 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
If Orlando can have the smaller Sanford airport on the north end, Atlanta sure as heck can have something similar on its north end. Traffic around Atlanta is a absolute nightmare and the entire northern third of the state should have a small domestic SFB style airport. Ludicrous that the entire state only has Atlanta and Savannah to fly into. And its the biggest state east of the Mississippi landmass wise.


They could open up Dobbins AFB to civilian traffic. It doesn't need much, just a platform, terminal and a parking lot. There's room for that in the southeast corner of the airport. It's close to a major highway and railway, so reachability is no problem. I think it could work.

Of course there's also DeKalb - Peachtree Airport, but that's so small it can hardly be called an alternative. Besides it's already filled with GA traffic so there's little room for commercial flights.
 
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:44 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
I can see where it would be nice to have an airport that served the NW burbs and Athens, but I see a second airport in that area struggling.


Doesn't AHN already exist? I wonder if F9 or G4 could start service to the popular Florida markets, like TTN, and if advertised well, maybe attract some passengers between Alpharetta and Lawrenceville in Atlanta's NW area.
 
incitatus
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:45 pm

bob75013 wrote:


How many times have we heard those excuses. (DFW/DAL) (MDW/ORD)

It was that logic that gave birth to the Wright Amendment.

1) A reliever airport doesn't need to offer the diversity of routes that the main airport does. IT would need to offer enough nonstop service to enough destinations to make it worthwhile to consider.

2) "Anything that diminishes ATL would be bad for Atlanta" and yet ORD and DFW are among the 5 busiest airports in the US even though they have been "diminished by DAL and MDW... LAX has been" diminished" by 5,6 (I forget how many) other airports, and yet it too is one of the 5 largest US airports.


You are entirely right that the existence of DAL and HOU diminish DFW and IAH. The same is true to MDW/ORD. The problem in Chicago is that there is no way to fold MDW service into ORD.

A reliever airport that offers "enough nonstop service to enough destinations" will offer 1-stop global connectivity. Bad for ATL.

The Atlanta economy attracts corporations to locate there because of the incredible amount of nonstop service available at ATL.
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santi319
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:49 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
The key is for public officials to ignore the threat and decide what's best for the population, not one corporation. So far they've failed to do so.


Um thats literally how the USA works though...
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:18 pm

It seems like there are two different kinds of alternate airports being discussed in this thread--a "boutique" type of operation for an airline such as G4, similar to what G4 has set up at Concord near Charlotte, and a true "reliever" airport which offers some geographic advantages to residents living on the northside of Atlanta, perhaps akin to what PAE will be to SEA.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:19 pm

phluser wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
I can see where it would be nice to have an airport that served the NW burbs and Athens, but I see a second airport in that area struggling.


Doesn't AHN already exist? I wonder if F9 or G4 could start service to the popular Florida markets, like TTN, and if advertised well, maybe attract some passengers between Alpharetta and Lawrenceville in Atlanta's NW area.


AHN is too far east for people to drive from the northern Atlanta suburbs. It’s also not located right off a major interstate and requires some driving once you reach Athens. GVL would be more convenient as it’s right off I-985 and is about 45 min from Alpharetta and Johns Creek. It would be best if it were set up like TTN as you mentioned. Having to connect in CLT or ATL to reach other major cities would defeat the purpose.
 
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:03 pm

incitatus wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


How many times have we heard those excuses. (DFW/DAL) (MDW/ORD)

It was that logic that gave birth to the Wright Amendment.

1) A reliever airport doesn't need to offer the diversity of routes that the main airport does. IT would need to offer enough nonstop service to enough destinations to make it worthwhile to consider.

2) "Anything that diminishes ATL would be bad for Atlanta" and yet ORD and DFW are among the 5 busiest airports in the US even though they have been "diminished by DAL and MDW... LAX has been" diminished" by 5,6 (I forget how many) other airports, and yet it too is one of the 5 largest US airports.


You are entirely right that the existence of DAL and HOU diminish DFW and IAH. The same is true to MDW/ORD. The problem in Chicago is that there is no way to fold MDW service into ORD.

A reliever airport that offers "enough nonstop service to enough destinations" will offer 1-stop global connectivity. Bad for ATL.

The Atlanta economy attracts corporations to locate there because of the incredible amount of nonstop service available at ATL.


DFW has almost as many AA nonstops as DL does in Atlanta. ORD is now undergoing an expansion that will let it exceed the number of gates at ATL. If those things are marks of MDW and DAL diminishing the bigger airports near them, then I guess it is so.
 
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:48 am

nikeherc wrote:
Atlanta doesn’t need another airport. ATL is constantly being improved. Security is the worst problem, and that can be improved. The D concourse is being improved. For those of you who don’t remember Eastern had concourse A and half of B. Delta had the the other half of B and all of C. Everybody else had D and T was international. Eastern failed and Delta grew. Atlanta was already bigger than ORD when Eastern collapsed. It wasn’t lack of competition that lead to ATL’s growth, it was geography and Delta. Businesses locate in Atlanta and Charlotte because of their airports, not despite them. Anything that runs the risk of reducing service at ATL risks the economic engine of Atlanta. I lived in Atlanta, and wouldn’t move back on a bet, but if I had to travel for a living again, I would just as soon do it from ATL as anywhere.


The other problem is that Concourses TABCD are badly undersized for the amount of traffic Delta's cramming through them these days; E and F are better, but still strained. The big morning and evening banks are an absolute zoo if you're a connecting passenger and are to be avoided if possible. Granted; CLT Concourses B and C can get the same way.
 
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neomax
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:33 am

For the purposes of this list, I consider anything 1h-1.5hr to be an alternative airport because I personally drive this on my commute to work.

SEA/BFI
SFO/OAK/SJC
LAX/LGB/SNA/ONT
PHX/AZA
DEN/COS
DFW/DAL

IAH/HOU
ORD/MDW/MKE
DTW/FNT
BOS/PVD
JFK/EWR/LGA
PHL/TTN
IAD/DCA/BWI
CLT/GSO/GSP
TPA/PIE/SRQ
MCO/SFB/DAB
MIA/FLL/PBI

The vast majority of these have at least one airport under an hour or less from the main one.

The only major hub airports missing from this list are ATL, MSP, and SLC. I see a common theme here.
 
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:24 am

neomax wrote:
For the purposes of this list, I consider anything 1h-1.5hr to be an alternative airport because I personally drive this on my commute to work.

SEA/BFI
SFO/OAK/SJC
LAX/LGB/SNA/ONT
PHX/AZA
DEN/COS
DFW/DAL

IAH/HOU
ORD/MDW/MKE
DTW/FNT
BOS/PVD
JFK/EWR/LGA
PHL/TTN
IAD/DCA/BWI
CLT/GSO/GSP
TPA/PIE/SRQ
MCO/SFB/DAB
MIA/FLL/PBI

The vast majority of these have at least one airport under an hour or less from the main one.

The only major hub airports missing from this list are ATL, MSP, and SLC. I see a common theme here.


Based on your criteria, MSP has RST (technically STC as well, but that's only G4), even though I've never heard of anyone driving there over MSP for a flight.
 
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neomax
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:41 am

tys777 wrote:
Based on your criteria, MSP has RST (technically STC as well, but that's only G4), even though I've never heard of anyone driving there over MSP for a flight.


Nice catch! I suspect because they are a bit on the far side. I think the farthest distance was between CLT and GSO/GSP, but I later saw somebody mention Concord airport as a much closer alternative which would make sense. So in that case MSP-RST/STC would be the farthest on the list by far. I'm pretty sure all cities on the list have at least one airport that is either a true alternative airport in terms of carrier offerings/proximity or has an ULCC like G4 that would be substantially cheaper.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:24 am

neomax wrote:
The only major hub airports missing from this list are ATL, MSP, and SLC. I see a common theme here.


As previously mentioned, AHN, MCN and CSG all meet your criteria.
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USAirKid
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:42 am

neomax wrote:
For the purposes of this list, I consider anything 1h-1.5hr to be an alternative airport because I personally drive this on my commute to work.

SEA/BFI

The vast majority of these have at least one airport under an hour or less from the main one.

The only major hub airports missing from this list are ATL, MSP, and SLC. I see a common theme here.


BFI doesn't have commercial service, and its unlikely to gain commercial service, as its been looked at and the road capacity isn't really there.

SEA/PAE might be a reasonable comparison.
 
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neomax
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 am

compensateme wrote:
neomax wrote:
The only major hub airports missing from this list are ATL, MSP, and SLC. I see a common theme here.


As previously mentioned, AHN, MCN and CSG all meet your criteria.


Unless I'm missing something, AHN and MCN do not have scheduled commercial service and CSG is above 1.5 hrs. Allegiant would count but none of them have even that so it would really be a stretch to realistically call any of them alternatives.
 
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neomax
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:52 am

USAirKid wrote:
BFI doesn't have commercial service, and its unlikely to gain commercial service, as its been looked at and the road capacity isn't really there.

SEA/PAE might be a reasonable comparison.


My bad, I indeed did mean PAE.
 
notdownnlocked
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:06 am

Well if you live in 75019 you live with house rattling rumble every time the wind is from the south. Spend an afternoon on the west side of Denton Tap and get back to me.[/quote]

In the Summer months the wind is from the South so the planes are landing to the South. They are already spaced and lined up for landing mostly over warehouses and the park. In the Winter months the takes off to the North and they go all different directions East after liftoff and that when I get the MD88's at 1800ft over my house or best is a 747 doing an aborted landing due to traffic/missed approach. While growing up in the 60's my Grandmother lived at the end of the DAL runway so now is nothing like the AA 707's/727' and BN 111's and barrage of 727's. I have always liked planes and that is why I actually live on the West side of Denton Tap. Go Allen Americans!
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:12 am

neomax wrote:
Unless I'm missing something, AHN and MCN do not have scheduled commercial service and CSG is above 1.5 hrs. Allegiant would count but none of them have even that so it would really be a stretch to realistically call any of them alternatives.


AHN and MCN have both had scheduled passenger service in the past, and CSG is on the fringe of 90 minutes (Google Map shows it at 1:26 from the airport, and 1:28 from Downtown).

If none of the three qualify as a potential “reliever” airport, then quite frankly I’m not sure what your point is.
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mast2407
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:14 am

a new runway at an airport in my country, on land already owned by the airport authority, with a base infrastructure that already exists, and excluding other projects that were spurred on as a result of the new runway (new atc tower, roads etc), cost €325m. And has been the guts of 20 years in the making, actively, and passively another 20 years. And if you look to London where they’re struggling with capacity, and can barely make a decision, it’s taken them how long to get as far as parliament supporting the runway at LHR, and that’s when doing something is a necessity and in the best interest of anyone who uses London or London airports. I would suspect that Delta would have a thing or two to say about a second commercial airport, and would waste very little time in delaying the entire project by whatever means necessary.

My point is that a new airport isn’t going to be operational next year, and sure isn’t going to be built for anything less than 3bn, even a crappy one. And if you build a new airport, for it to sustain itself it has to provide a quality service to compete with something like ATL. Anything else, and what’s the point.

And if you look at aviation 40 years ago, when my country started planning for a second runway at the busiest airport in the country, it was different then. Heck, the majority of aircraft around today weren’t even pipe dreams 40 years ago.

My thinking would be that 3bn would get you far more at ATL than at a new establishment, and would likely get it for you far quicker. (Whether that’s a good thing or not is almost exclusively beside the point).
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:16 am

The biggest opposition to a second airport near the ATL population centers won’t be DL, but rather the people that live in the vicinity of the proposed airport. In an era of suburban sprawl, there’s a reason why no new commercial airport complexes (sans converted military bases) have been built in this country since DEN opened in 1994.
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neomax
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:23 am

compensateme wrote:
AHN and MCN have both had scheduled passenger service in the past, and CSG is on the fringe of 90 minutes (Google Map shows it at 1:26 from the airport, and 1:28 from Downtown).


True, but that was in the past. And CSG's only flight is to ATL, which defeats the point of driving to an alternate. If you're gonna drive anyway, drive straight to ATL. Some of these airports actually have service to their alternates, but are also well within driving distance. DEN-COS and ORD-MKE are just barely quicker than driving. But depending on what part of town you live in, the alternate could be a lot quicker. MKE is super convenient if you live in North Chicago as is COS for south Denver. According to a KOAA report, some flights are as low as 20 bucks which I would definitely drive for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuXfJiEzHak
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:22 am

neomax wrote:
compensateme wrote:
AHN and MCN have both had scheduled passenger service in the past, and CSG is on the fringe of 90 minutes (Google Map shows it at 1:26 from the airport, and 1:28 from Downtown).


True, but that was in the past. And CSG's only flight is to ATL, which defeats the point of driving to an alternate. If you're gonna drive anyway, drive straight to ATL. Some of these airports actually have service to their alternates, but are also well within driving distance. DEN-COS and ORD-MKE are just barely quicker than driving. But depending on what part of town you live in, the alternate could be a lot quicker. MKE is super convenient if you live in North Chicago as is COS for south Denver. According to a KOAA report, some flights are as low as 20 bucks which I would definitely drive for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuXfJiEzHak



I guess no other airline sees any benefit to serving an ATL reliever airport.... the airports do exist, with the infrastructure- but no one wants to serve them or use them.
Boiler Up!
 
fpetrutiu
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:13 pm

NYPECO wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.


If you book a flight with an airline that requires you to connect in Atlanta, both your flights will be out of the same airport.


Not necessarily. Look at London with Heathrow and Gatwick. You can book tickets that require you to change airports, I have done that before for lack of alternative. Same with LGA and JFK.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
Gumffo1
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:29 pm

I'm not completely familiar with the ATL area so you'll have to forgive me, but could the likes of FTY be expanded/have a terminal added a la PAE that would allow it to become a smaller, secondary airport?
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:00 pm

Gumffo1 wrote:
I'm not completely familiar with the ATL area so you'll have to forgive me, but could the likes of FTY be expanded/have a terminal added a la PAE that would allow it to become a smaller, secondary airport?


As I mentioned in another comment, WN toyed with the idea of using PTY (aka Charlie Brown Field) many years ago. But of all the airports that have been suggested as alternates, PTY is by far the closest to ATL and would not offer any real geographic advantages.
 
Dalmd88
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Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:14 pm

FTY has short runways with little expansion capability. It also has terrain issues just to the west of the river.

Many have brought up PDK, again only a 6000' runway, with no room to expand. PDK also has a rapidly improving neighborhood with a very vocal NIMBY population. Dobbins ARB has also been mentioned in this thread. It has very little runoff areas for its 10,000' runway. I recall years ago the FAA cited that as a barrier to approval for commercial traffic. Also I don't think the base wants to hand over any land and deal with the mixed ops. I kinda doubt the surrounding area want the air or vehicle traffic either.

The common thread for just about all the current airports is the people that live near them don't want commercial traffic and the increased vehicle traffic. So many have stated that the horrendous Atlanta traffic is a good reason for building a new airport. I've lived in a few other big cities. I really don't buy that argument. I know people that commute everyday 50-60 miles from the Northside to ATL. I've also known some that do the Warner Robbins to ATL commute clocking in at about 90 miles.
 
jetlanta
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:56 pm

ScottB wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
Georgia has much better things to do with its resources that fund billions of dollars (and thats what it will cost) to build an white elephant.


I don't think anyone is talking about a project of that grandiose scale. I suspect any sort of "second commercial Atlanta-area airport" project would be akin to the privately-developed terminal at PAE or a low-cost project like the PGD terminal or the new LGB terminal which came in under $50 million even in the high-cost L.A. area. Maybe a carrier like G4 or NK would be willing to fund the project out of its own pocket.

jetlanta wrote:
ATL is better located than any possible alternate site.


It's not well-located for the northern suburbs especially in light of Atlanta's notorious traffic.

bob75013 wrote:
Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.


A second airport isn't necessarily the solution to that particular problem. Expanding the security checkpoints, increasing TSA staffing to fully utilize the existing space, or improving TSA's efficiency in screening passengers (LOL) would be more appropriate. A second commercial airport in the region would really be more about offering less hassle in getting to the airport for some of the population.


The 2nd airport isn't going to be located in a better location. It is going to be located in the hinterlands, far far away from the important employment centers. This evaluation has already been done. The possible sites are either too far out, or too close and not politically viable (Dobbins, PDK, Charlie Brown).

Look, a private developer could come in a turn some far off GA field into a commercial service airport, but it sin't going to have political support. At best, it will be a small G4-type operation. But, G4 has already been down this road and has chosen to step back. Whatever might be potentially developed will never become a real alternative to ATL.

Cities with multi-airport systems tend to have an old, small close-in airport and a newer, larger, more remote airport. That would be flipped on its end in Atlanta. The larger, closer-in airport will always be ATL. The secondary airport will be small and poorly-located. Atlanta will not look like Houston, Chicago or Dallas in our lifetimes for all these reasons AND the fact that there is NO political support fo this idea. That matters here. A lot.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:49 am

I keep hearing on here that air service is and should be a commercial service and goverment should stay out. However it seems for airports that is flipped on its head, Politics should decide where airports go only. And that seems to include if a commericial company has enough pull to prevent others from operating.

Whats wrong with a bit of competition, I have visited Atlanta once and connected a bunch of times, the car trafic is awful. And if reasonably located other players except the resident incumbent could probably make a go of it. Any of those LCC carriers could work they often use a secondary airport to make up some of the cost difference.
 
nikeherc
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:22 am

Atlanta needs another airport like I need another hole in my head. Years ago, BellSouth dealt with where to put a new Headquarters building. They discovered that their employee center of gravity was south of town. People that trend to travel for a living will work out a way to minimize the difficulties of ATL. Less frequent travelers will cope. ATL is the 900 lb gorilla. No other airport will be successful in the area.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
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neomax
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:29 am

The reality is in most cities with big airports, the airport needs the city more than the city needs the airport from the perspective of revenue generation. In New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles, the city often dictates what the airport/airlines can do. This is not always true in other big cities like Dallas with the Wright Amendment where politics gets involved and intervenes on behalf of the airlines. But in Atlanta, the situation is especially bad because the balance is so heavily favored toward ATL and DL that the city has no choice but to support it. Methods of forcing plans through the system whether the local airline supports it or not such as what Cuomo dictates at LGA and Emmanuel dictates at ORD only work when the city has the upper hand. ATL is more important to Atlanta than Atlanta is to ATL and the real problem will always be this until the city takes control of the airport itself.
 
nikeherc
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:06 am

ATL is a huge patronage scheme for the government in Atlanta. All of the service, food and other contracts for ATL are subject to control by the mayor and city council. The mayor and his pals aren’t going to allow anything to compete with ATL, especially if they control the new airport. It’s not just Delta that likes things the way they are.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:25 am

nikeherc wrote:
ATL is a huge patronage scheme for the government in Atlanta. All of the service, food and other contracts for ATL are subject to control by the mayor and city council. The mayor and his pals aren’t going to allow anything to compete with ATL, especially if they control the new airport. It’s not just Delta that likes things the way they are.


Please tell me where one could build a second airport in the Atlanta area in which corrupt politicians and Delta would be a bigger obstical than residents who don’t want to live by an airport (or at least have their property value suffer).
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 422
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:30 am

tys777 wrote:
neomax wrote:
For the purposes of this list, I consider anything 1h-1.5hr to be an alternative airport because I personally drive this on my commute to work.

SEA/BFI
SFO/OAK/SJC
LAX/LGB/SNA/ONT
PHX/AZA
DEN/COS
DFW/DAL

IAH/HOU
ORD/MDW/MKE
DTW/FNT
BOS/PVD
JFK/EWR/LGA
PHL/TTN
IAD/DCA/BWI
CLT/GSO/GSP
TPA/PIE/SRQ
MCO/SFB/DAB
MIA/FLL/PBI

The vast majority of these have at least one airport under an hour or less from the main one.

The only major hub airports missing from this list are ATL, MSP, and SLC. I see a common theme here.


Based on your criteria, MSP has RST (technically STC as well, but that's only G4), even though I've never heard of anyone driving there over MSP for a flight.


Those airports are far away from the twin cities. 76 and 86 miles from MSP. I know there was talk about 25 years ago to build a new airport in the northern metro. But instead the MAC went with adding 17/35 and expanding the terminals, including terminal 2. I think the airport serves its purpose. And with expansion of terminal 2 the area wont need a secondary airport for decades.
 
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neomax
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:15 am

compensateme wrote:
Please tell me where one could build a second airport in the Atlanta area in which corrupt politicians and Delta would be a bigger obstical than residents who don’t want to live by an airport (or at least have their property value suffer).


Literally anywhere in Atlanta?!
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 415
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:16 am

Elementalism wrote:
tys777 wrote:
neomax wrote:
For the purposes of this list, I consider anything 1h-1.5hr to be an alternative airport because I personally drive this on my commute to work.

SEA/BFI
SFO/OAK/SJC
LAX/LGB/SNA/ONT
PHX/AZA
DEN/COS
DFW/DAL

IAH/HOU
ORD/MDW/MKE
DTW/FNT
BOS/PVD
JFK/EWR/LGA
PHL/TTN
IAD/DCA/BWI
CLT/GSO/GSP
TPA/PIE/SRQ
MCO/SFB/DAB
MIA/FLL/PBI

The vast majority of these have at least one airport under an hour or less from the main one.

The only major hub airports missing from this list are ATL, MSP, and SLC. I see a common theme here.


Based on your criteria, MSP has RST (technically STC as well, but that's only G4), even though I've never heard of anyone driving there over MSP for a flight.


Those airports are far away from the twin cities. 76 and 86 miles from MSP. I know there was talk about 25 years ago to build a new airport in the northern metro. But instead the MAC went with adding 17/35 and expanding the terminals, including terminal 2. I think the airport serves its purpose. And with expansion of terminal 2 the area wont need a secondary airport for decades.


Agree on every point. I was just pointing out that technically MSP had commercial airports within 90 min.

The airport serves its purpose wonderfully, just wish parking was cheaper without having to park at terminal 2 and take the light rail over, but I digress.
 
Chemist
Posts: 540
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Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:42 am

:rotfl: Don't forget BUR near LAX as well.

I'm just SHOCKED that Delta wouldn't want more competition from another airport nearby ATL. :biggrin:
 
bravoindia
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Delta not a fan of second airport in Atlanta

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:42 am

bob75013 wrote:
so says it's CEO.

Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because DL would actually have to compete for business in Atlanta for the first time in decades.

Bastian laughingly was quoted in the article ""The secret to the success of what we have is the biggest airport in the world," Delta CEO Ed Bastian told Atlanta Business Chronicle during a lengthy interview Friday. "When you divert away your resources, you become sub-scale.Bastian noted the successes other metropolitan areas have enjoyed hosting multiple airports, including New York City and Chicago. But he said Atlanta features a different strategic model that's working well here. ..."

Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.

A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"

Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... yptr=yahoo



While I understand the competition point, the TSA waits are hardly a nightmare. ORD and the NYC airports are a train wreck compared the this place.

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