Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Cubsrule wrote:What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.
LittleSprocket wrote:From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.
bob75013 wrote:A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"
Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?
NYPECO wrote:LittleSprocket wrote:From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.
If you book a flight with an airline that requires you to connect in Atlanta, both your flights will be out of the same airport.
WkndWanderer wrote:bob75013 wrote:A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"
Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?
I'm not sure a second airport's role in competition is as important of an argument for a second airport, .
bob75013 wrote:so says it's CEO.
Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because DL would actually have to compete for business in Atlanta for the first time in decades.
Bastian laughingly was quoted in the article ""The secret to the success of what we have is the biggest airport in the world," Delta CEO Ed Bastian told Atlanta Business Chronicle during a lengthy interview Friday. "When you divert away your resources, you become sub-scale.Bastian noted the successes other metropolitan areas have enjoyed hosting multiple airports, including New York City and Chicago. But he said Atlanta features a different strategic model that's working well here. ..."
Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.
A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"
Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?
At the moment? Delta "Rules the Roost" in Atlanta. Something they might NOT be able to do anywhere ELSE. Were I them? I might not want another airport in Atlanta either! But? It's Not their choice!! The question is? Atlanta has Marta going into the terminal at ATL Where ELSE can they put another airport with the convenience and Infrastructure of Hartsfield / Jackson international? Another international airport would take YEARS to build and HIGHLY unlikely to be in the city of Atlanta nor close by. Nor is it likely to have I-75. I- 85 or I-20 in any crossroad near by.. They had it all together when they located ATL where they did.
Could it happen? I suppose so. Can Delta stop it? I doubt it. will they Serve the airport? Your guess is as good as mine..
https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... yptr=yahoo
LittleSprocket wrote:NYPECO wrote:LittleSprocket wrote:From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.
If you book a flight with an airline that requires you to connect in Atlanta, both your flights will be out of the same airport.
See that's where I am doubtful., if you look at flights out of the NYC area, you may land in JFK and depart through LGA.
incitatus wrote:This is not so simple as a second airport is just bad for Delta. A second airport is bad for ATL. ATL has a lot of nonstop service. An airport in the northern suburbs will create service that will draw traffic away from those nonstops. For example, passengers may choose to fly from the second airport, make a connection in ORD, EWR or PHL and head to Europe, instead of choosing a nonstop from ATL. ATL loses, there should be no doubt about that. Of course, it ATL loses, so does Delta because it has such a massive operation there. It is not unreasonable to expect that an airport with some scale north of Atlanta will cost ATL some nonstop service.
bob75013 wrote:Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.
Cubsrule wrote:What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.
bob75013 wrote:so says it's CEO.
Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because DL would actually have to compete for business in Atlanta for the first time in decades.
Bastian laughingly was quoted in the article ""The secret to the success of what we have is the biggest airport in the world," Delta CEO Ed Bastian told Atlanta Business Chronicle during a lengthy interview Friday. "When you divert away your resources, you become sub-scale.Bastian noted the successes other metropolitan areas have enjoyed hosting multiple airports, including New York City and Chicago. But he said Atlanta features a different strategic model that's working well here. ..."
Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.
A second airport would provide DL with much needed competition. WN at DAL keep sAA at DFW on it's toes. WN at MDW keep AA and UA at ORD on their toes.
UA at EWR keeps DL at LGA on it's toes. I don't think any of those operations are , to quote Bastian, "sub 'scale"
Who's going to step up to keep DL at ATL on it's toes?
https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... yptr=yahoo
stl07 wrote:Cubsrule wrote:What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.
10 min, for precheck!! That's super long. Pre check is walk up or a max of 5 min on a bad day in almost every airport I have been to including megahubs like LAX.
compensateme wrote:Time to inject some facts into this discussion... ~70% of ATL’s traffic merely transfers there, the lion’s share on DL. The reason ATL is so congested is because of the DL hub. DL has oodles of capacity built out, that’s its currently paying for in leasing agreements, at CVG, DTW, MSP, etc.
ATL is a recipient of disproportionate level of transfer traffic on DL because status quo, it makes the most sense cost wise. For example, more people connect via ATL than DTW or MSP en route to LAX because ATL can support larger aircraft, thereby enabling it to offer lower costs for the journey and pass lower fares along to the customer.
Expansion will cost billions, which will largely be paid by DL (given it’s the 800 lb gorilla). That will heavily increase the cost of flowing passenger through there. Given that it’s cheaper for DL to move portions of its flow traffic elsewhere, it’s not surprising they oppose a large expansion project. Remember, ATL only needs to expand because of ~70M connecting passengers flowing there.
jetlanta wrote:Georgia has much better things to do with its resources that fund billions of dollars (and thats what it will cost) to build an white elephant.
jetlanta wrote:ATL is better located than any possible alternate site.
bob75013 wrote:Anyone who has endured the TSA nightmare in Atlanta knows full well that the model is not working well there and shows why the city needs a new airport.
Cubsrule wrote:stl07 wrote:Cubsrule wrote:What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.
10 min, for precheck!! That's super long. Pre check is walk up or a max of 5 min on a bad day in almost every airport I have been to including megahubs like LAX.
Try SEA in the morning or DEN or SJU pretty much any time.
2travel2know2 wrote:1 Add at least 6 gates and ample terminal/parking space, including F.I.S. to CHA.
2 Upgrade rail which goes just in front of CHA so there are 8-10 return trains per day between CHA and Atlanta, traveling time must be at max 60 minutes.
3 Market improved airport as Chattanooga-Atlanta.
4 Wait for airlines to flock over-there.
ScottB wrote:.I don't think anyone is talking about a project of that grandiose scale. I suspect any sort of "second commercial Atlanta-area airport" project would be akin to the privately-developed terminal at PAE or a low-cost project like the PGD terminal or the new LGB terminal which came in under $50 million even in the high-cost L.A. area. Maybe a carrier like G4 or NK would be willing to fund the project out of pocket
compensateme wrote:ScottB wrote:.I don't think anyone is talking about a project of that grandiose scale. I suspect any sort of "second commercial Atlanta-area airport" project would be akin to the privately-developed terminal at PAE or a low-cost project like the PGD terminal or the new LGB terminal which came in under $50 million even in the high-cost L.A. area. Maybe a carrier like G4 or NK would be willing to fund the project out of pocket
, fill
While you’re correct that LGB spent about $45M on its Greyhound-type terminal, since 2010, It has spent nearly $250M to modernize the entire complex and recently proposed spending another $85M to complete the project. And of course, it didn’t have to purchase the land, build the roadways or runways.
I’d suspect one would be pressed to build a second airport from the ground up in the Atlanta area for less than $1B, even if it’s a small, Greyhound-type terminal. Environmental costs, soundproofing, etc. isn’t cheap, even in a dark red state.
jetmatt777 wrote:In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:compensateme wrote:ScottB wrote:.I don't think anyone is talking about a project of that grandiose scale. I suspect any sort of "second commercial Atlanta-area airport" project would be akin to the privately-developed terminal at PAE or a low-cost project like the PGD terminal or the new LGB terminal which came in under $50 million even in the high-cost L.A. area. Maybe a carrier like G4 or NK would be willing to fund the project out of pocket
, fill
While you’re correct that LGB spent about $45M on its Greyhound-type terminal, since 2010, It has spent nearly $250M to modernize the entire complex and recently proposed spending another $85M to complete the project. And of course, it didn’t have to purchase the land, build the roadways or runways.
I’d suspect one would be pressed to build a second airport from the ground up in the Atlanta area for less than $1B, even if it’s a small, Greyhound-type terminal. Environmental costs, soundproofing, etc. isn’t cheap, even in a dark red state.
$1 B - more likely $3B+ for any sort of greenfield site. The amount of earthmoving, in-fill, drainage, and environementa in most areas of ATL is pretty extensive.
DL is going to continue to attempt to push more capacity through ATL mostly through increased aircraft size/seats per departure.
A second airport would not dramatically change the competitive landscape for the region.
notdownnlocked wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.
And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.
Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.
notdownnlocked wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.
And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.
Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.
deltadawg wrote:LZU is the obvious choice but it will NEVER happen in my lifetime.
1) No one wants a new airport in their backyard
2) Money? Who will pay for $3-4billion up front
3) ATL will keep expanding - current plan is the addition of Concourse G, then H & I for a total of 30-35 new gates iirc
4) Perhaps with a central planning committee with REAL control unlike the GRTA a new airport could happen - once again maybe in 40-50 years
5) DL has lived in ATL with competition for the last 70 years and is not going anywhere - Eastern was the biggest competitor, F9, Southern, WN, NK, Republic to some degree, NW, PeoplExpress,
bob75013 wrote:notdownnlocked wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:In other news Marlboro is against government funded anti-smoking campaigns.
And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.
Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.
Actually, the whole thread came about because Ed Ba stien shot of is mouth to the Atlanta business journal.
Actually, I could care less about DL at DAL, Do I think Dl is squatting. Yup. I'm just waiting for 2024 for a massive WN expansion in Dallas.
That IS what I care about.
Glad to see you are a regular reader and fan of my posts.
And in more other news, enjoy the rumble of reverse thrusters in Coppell with every landing at DFW.
notdownnlocked wrote:bob75013 wrote:notdownnlocked wrote:
And in other news, this whole thread came about because of 75013's butt hurt because Delta is "gate squatting and trespassing" on a beloved WN gate at DAL which can be seen in many if not all posts of his.
Signed notdownnlocked in 75019.
Actually, the whole thread came about because Ed Ba stien shot of is mouth to the Atlanta business journal.
Actually, I could care less about DL at DAL, Do I think Dl is squatting. Yup. I'm just waiting for 2024 for a massive WN expansion in Dallas.
That IS what I care about.
Glad to see you are a regular reader and fan of my posts.
And in more other news, enjoy the rumble of reverse thrusters in Coppell with every landing at DFW.
well if you live in 75019, you live with reverse thruster noise every time the wind blows from the south. Spend an afternoon on the west side of Denton Tap
Come on now, "reverse thrusters"??? I see you are not in the technology based side of your enterprise. I love the planes flying over but no T/R noise here. The only noise and smoke here is from the Hard8 bbq place close.
Cubsrule wrote:What TSA “nightmare?” I can’t remember the last time I waited more than 5 or 10 minutes (precheck, domestic terminal). That’s certainly acceptable for an airport of ATL’s size.
LittleSprocket wrote:NYPECO wrote:LittleSprocket wrote:From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.
If you book a flight with an airline that requires you to connect in Atlanta, both your flights will be out of the same airport.
See that's where I am doubtful., if you look at flights out of the NYC area, you may land in JFK and depart through LGA.
LittleSprocket wrote:From a customer's perspective, why wouldn't you want everything centralized? If I took a flight into Atlanta, I dont want to have to take a bus an hour or so north just to catch a connection. Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense having everything in one spot.