clrd4t8koff
Topic Author
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:54 am

Shocked to see no Chinese airlines fly PVG-DXB n/s and EK fly double daily A380’s. They must be printing money on that route.

CA fly PEK-DXB and CZ fly CAN-DXB. Why no Chinese carriers on PVG-DXB?
 
downdata
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:02 am

Well if any chinese airlines should fly it, it would be china eastern...
 
planemanofnz
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:40 am

How much O&D is really filling those EK 388's though? I imagine that ~95% of traffic would be connecting to Africa and Europe.

Does anyone know if MU's upcoming non-stop PVG - DXB flight will see the existing PVG - KMG - DXB flight axed or reduced?

Cheers,

C.
 
TC957
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:52 am

According to Galileo GDS the nonstop PVG-DXB will operate 17 Sep - 26 Oct only, with the one-stop service continuing during this time and afterwards.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:01 am

Put it this way, the Chinese carriers are likely already flying to those destinations that the EK pax are eventually flying to (after halting at DXB).
Vahroone
 
clrd4t8koff
Topic Author
Posts: 1575
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:11 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Put it this way, the Chinese carriers are likely already flying to those destinations that the EK pax are eventually flying to (after halting at DXB).


Do the any of the Chinese carriers have really much of presence in the Middle East or Africa (outside of maybe JNB)?
 
raylee67
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:28 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Put it this way, the Chinese carriers are likely already flying to those destinations that the EK pax are eventually flying to (after halting at DXB).


Do the any of the Chinese carriers have really much of presence in the Middle East or Africa (outside of maybe JNB)?

CZ flies to Nairobi from CAN. That's it.

CA used to fly to Addis Ababa and Kuwait (via Karachi) but both are discontinued.

It is kind of surprising to see so few Chinese carriers flying to Africa, given the number of Chinese living in Africa and the amount of trades between them. Probably most of the traffic between China and Africa are captured by EK and ET already.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
migair54
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:56 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Put it this way, the Chinese carriers are likely already flying to those destinations that the EK pax are eventually flying to (after halting at DXB).


Do the any of the Chinese carriers have really much of presence in the Middle East or Africa (outside of maybe JNB)?


Very little, I think the flights will be too long and with low yields, the best for the Chinese airlines is just flying to any of the hubs like NBO, ADD, CAI and they codeshare with African Airlines, otherwise I don't think any Chinese airline will make money in routes to Africa except a couple of destinations.

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Put it this way, the Chinese carriers are likely already flying to those destinations that the EK pax are eventually flying to (after halting at DXB).


Not at all, out of all destinations EK has in Europe, Middle East, Afriaca and South America, maybe all the chinese carriers offer flights to 10-15 only, and most of them in Europe.

I heard that EK wants to add more flights to China, to the current destinations and also add some more destinations, however EK can't get traffic rights.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:13 am

EK is monopoly on a lot of its routes including every route to Australia, New Zealand, Japan, the USA and South America. Why everyone should jump the ship into DXB given EK's business model is predominately transferring passenger via DXB?
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Put it this way, the Chinese carriers are likely already flying to those destinations that the EK pax are eventually flying to (after halting at DXB).


Do the any of the Chinese carriers have really much of presence in the Middle East or Africa (outside of maybe JNB)?

CZ CAN-DXB daily, WUH-DXB 3x weekly, URC-DXB 3x weekly.
CA PEK-DXB 6-7 times weekly and CKG-DXB 3x weekly.
MU PVG-KMG-DXB 3x weekly, plus the upcoming PVG-DXB nonstop 3x weekly. Most likely the schedule hasn't been extended into W18 for this one.
3U CTU-DXB 3x weekly, CTU-INC-DXB 3x weekly.

Talking about non-presence of Chinese carriers in the ME.
raylee67 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Put it this way, the Chinese carriers are likely already flying to those destinations that the EK pax are eventually flying to (after halting at DXB).


Do the any of the Chinese carriers have really much of presence in the Middle East or Africa (outside of maybe JNB)?

CZ flies to Nairobi from CAN. That's it.

CA used to fly to Addis Ababa and Kuwait (via Karachi) but both are discontinued.

It is kind of surprising to see so few Chinese carriers flying to Africa, given the number of Chinese living in Africa and the amount of trades between them. Probably most of the traffic between China and Africa are captured by EK and ET already.

CA still has PEK-JNB 3x weekly.

Also, the traffic for Chinese workers going Africa are predominantely low-yielding Y class traffic. How are you supposed to sustain such a long flight (can even be weight restricted at times) without substantial revenue?

Plus
 
artofzen
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:38 am

Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:23 am

raylee67 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Put it this way, the Chinese carriers are likely already flying to those destinations that the EK pax are eventually flying to (after halting at DXB).


Do the any of the Chinese carriers have really much of presence in the Middle East or Africa (outside of maybe JNB)?

CZ flies to Nairobi from CAN. That's it.

CA used to fly to Addis Ababa and Kuwait (via Karachi) but both are discontinued.

It is kind of surprising to see so few Chinese carriers flying to Africa, given the number of Chinese living in Africa and the amount of trades between them. Probably most of the traffic between China and Africa are captured by EK and ET already.


CAAC - Dubai, Sharjah, Tehran, Baghdad, Kuwait, Cairo, Addis Ababa possibly some more African routes

Air China - Dubai, previously Kuwait and Addis Ababa

China Southern - Tehran, Dubai, Nairobi, previously Mauritius, Lagos, Jeddah, Medina seasonal and Sharjah, plans for Cairo, Riyadh and Luanda were mentioned but didnt happen

China Eastern - Dubai, previously Bahrain and Johannesburg, plans for Algiers were mentioned but didnt happen

Hainan Airlines - Tel Aviv, previously Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Cairo, Khartoum and Luanda, future plan Tehran

Sichuan Airlines - Dubai
 
LGAviation
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Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:14 am

Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:26 am

artofzen wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Do the any of the Chinese carriers have really much of presence in the Middle East or Africa (outside of maybe JNB)?

CZ flies to Nairobi from CAN. That's it.

CA used to fly to Addis Ababa and Kuwait (via Karachi) but both are discontinued.

It is kind of surprising to see so few Chinese carriers flying to Africa, given the number of Chinese living in Africa and the amount of trades between them. Probably most of the traffic between China and Africa are captured by EK and ET already.


CAAC - Dubai, Sharjah, Tehran, Baghdad, Kuwait, Cairo, Addis Ababa possibly some more African routes

Air China - Dubai, previously Kuwait and Addis Ababa

China Southern - Tehran, Dubai, Nairobi, previously Mauritius, Lagos, Jeddah, Medina seasonal and Sharjah, plans for Cairo, Riyadh and Luanda were mentioned but didnt happen

China Eastern - Dubai, previously Bahrain and Johannesburg, plans for Algiers were mentioned but didnt happen

Hainan Airlines - Tel Aviv, previously Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Cairo, Khartoum and Luanda, future plan Tehran

Sichuan Airlines - Dubai


planemanofnz wrote:
How much O&D is really filling those EK 388's though? I imagine that ~95% of traffic would be connecting to Africa and Europe.

Does anyone know if MU's upcoming non-stop PVG - DXB flight will see the existing PVG - KMG - DXB flight axed or reduced?

Cheers,

C.



This definitely shows that China-UAE certainly isn't all connections. Dubai has become a city that people from all around Asia, Africa and Europe go to as a destination - to do business, to go shopping, to go on vacation, to get medical treatment and to meet friends. Also, China and the UAE have recently signed a mutual visa waiver agreement so travel between the two is even easier.
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR
 
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Spiderguy252
Posts: 1127
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:41 am

Are you folks sure Air China doesn't fly to Nairobi?

Because I spotted a 747 at NBO same time last month:

Image

(Sorry for the picture - it is what it is, but you can see that it is a CA 744).
Vahroone
 
artofzen
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:38 am

Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:57 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Are you folks sure Air China doesn't fly to Nairobi?

Because I spotted a 747 at NBO same time last month:

Image

(Sorry for the picture - it is what it is, but you can see that it is a CA 744).

VIP flight or charter.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4299
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:35 am

LGAviation wrote:
This definitely shows that China-UAE certainly isn't all connections.

There is Chinese tourism demand to the UAE, for sure.

See: https://www.thenational.ae/business/tra ... e-1.702547.

However, for completeness, it's important to note that just because Chinese carriers fly somewhere, that doesn't mean that there's demand. Take HAV and PTY by CA as two prime examples of 'political' flights. I imagine DXB on CA's route map serves the Chinese government's need to have aviation representation in the MEA region. We should also note that various Chinese cities subsidize long-haul flights, and with DXB being one of the shortest long-haul flight options from China, this may partly explain the size of CZ's presence at DXB. Globally, DXB's O&D is relatively low (many airlines are pulling out - QF and VS, as two examples) - its traffic and visitor statistics are skewed by EK's hub.

Cheers,

C.
 
LGAviation
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:10 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
LGAviation wrote:
This definitely shows that China-UAE certainly isn't all connections.

There is Chinese tourism demand to the UAE, for sure.

See: https://www.thenational.ae/business/tra ... e-1.702547.

However, for completeness, it's important to note that just because Chinese carriers fly somewhere, that doesn't mean that there's demand. Take HAV and PTY by CA as two prime examples of 'political' flights. I imagine DXB on CA's route map serves the Chinese government's need to have aviation representation in the MEA region. We should also note that various Chinese cities subsidize long-haul flights, and with DXB being one of the shortest long-haul flight options from China, this may partly explain the size of CZ's presence at DXB. Globally, DXB's O&D is relatively low (many airlines are pulling out - QF and VS, as two examples) - its traffic and visitor statistics are skewed by EK's hub.

Cheers,

C.


I'm with you on the first part. There are so many routes that Chinese airlines fly just to grab them under the one-route-one-carrier policy or that they have to fly for political reasons or that are subsidised. Dubai, however, is in my view a totally different animal. Dubai O&D certainly outnumbers that of places like PTY.

As for your examples, QF never flew to DXB for the O&D in the first place, they needed a stopover point to LHR and during that time they chose DXB for connection opportunities but now favour the nonstop option ex Perth. VS isn't pulling out for lack of O&D, there's tons of Brits living in the country and there's so many flights between the two that they go for the O&D, just look at the triple-daily BA. I visited Dubai several times personally and certainly never used EK to get there.
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4299
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:55 pm

LGAviation wrote:
Dubai O&D certainly outnumbers that of places like PTY.

It's the financial capital of the Middle East, which counts for something. However, relatively speaking, I suspect (but can't prove) that its unskewed O&D traffic is low (or average, at best). If this is incorrect, then shouldn't DXB be able to support at the very least, a US or Japanese airline? Shouldn't it also have been able to keep at least some of the airlines that it's losing (like QF and VS)? I suspect (though again, can't prove) that DXB is limited by being too conservative, too expensive and too sweltry to attract key O&D flows which would support more foreign airlines, like tourists (of the non-stopover kind).

Then again, I could well be wrong.

Cheers,

C.
 
artofzen
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:38 am

Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:30 pm

CAAC - Dubai, Sharjah, Tehran, Baghdad, Kuwait, Cairo, Addis Ababa possibly some more African routes

Air China - Dubai, previously Kuwait and Addis Ababa

China Southern - Tehran, Dubai, Nairobi, previously Mauritius, Lagos, Jeddah, Medina seasonal and Sharjah, plans for Cairo, Riyadh and Luanda were mentioned but didnt happen

China Eastern - Dubai, previously Bahrain and Johannesburg, plans for Algiers were mentioned but didnt happen

Hainan Airlines - Tel Aviv, previously Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Cairo, Khartoum and Luanda, future plan Tehran

Sichuan Airlines - Dubai


China Xinjiang - Sharjah
 
LGAviation
Posts: 861
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Re: EK monopoly on PVG-DXB

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:15 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
LGAviation wrote:
Dubai O&D certainly outnumbers that of places like PTY.

It's the financial capital of the Middle East, which counts for something. However, relatively speaking, I suspect (but can't prove) that its unskewed O&D traffic is low (or average, at best). If this is incorrect, then shouldn't DXB be able to support at the very least, a US or Japanese airline? Shouldn't it also have been able to keep at least some of the airlines that it's losing (like QF and VS)? I suspect (though again, can't prove) that DXB is limited by being too conservative, too expensive and too sweltry to attract key O&D flows which would support more foreign airlines, like tourists (of the non-stopover kind).

Then again, I could well be wrong.

Cheers,

C.


According to Mastercard, Dubai has been the city with fourth-most overnight visitors of any city back in 2016 (at 15.27 mn overnight guests just below Bangkok, London and Paris and slightly ahead of New York City https://newsroom.mastercard.com/wp-cont ... Report.pdf). From my point of view, that seems to be accurate since Dubai has become much more than the financial centre of the Middle East and a stopover point to Australia and New Zealand. Emirates does not actively advertise free stopovers in Dubai to most of its passengers and I would believe that the majority of these guests travel for other reasons to Dubai. Many multinationals have their regional headquarters in the area, there's great shopping, great healthcare and it has also become a major tourist destination, especially for Central and Eastern Europeans. I suspect that you're Kiwi and therefore envy you for your great connections to the liberal beaches of the South Pacific but for many Europeans warm-water beaches aren't that close and the UAE is a not too expensive (there's packages), not too far away and visa-free destination that has gained a lot of popularity with the turmoils in Northern Africa and Turkey. It also never has been too harsh on the general public in terms of moral code expectations although from the media there certainly seem to be exceptional cases. The UAE might not be able to sustain VS and QF but it certainly sustains lots of European LCCs (look at Al Maktoum airport) and charters and it also sustains more than ten-daily flights to the UK on both BA and EK. As for the US, I would argue that the majority of drawing factors don't appeal to Americans: there's warm water beaches in the Caribbean, banks and businesses in the US, great shopping in the US, some health care in the US and much more so in essence aside from the Subcontinent VFR, the point of sale for DXB-US will always be UAE heavy and it will also be impossible for US carriers to compete with their vast domestic networks since UAE visitors go to JFK or to LAX or to FLL but not Rapid City, SD or Chattanooga, TN. Also, this is not unknown for major faraway tourist destinations, New Zealand doesn't see a single Euro carrier and Australia also only sees BA in SYD, Bangkok doesn't see a single American carrier.
These drawing factors should at least partially appeal to Chinese visitors though and I would believe that there also could be a sizeable market for a Chinese carrier.
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR

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