VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Why don’t US passenger airlines have cargo subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:36 pm

In 1991 when I was young, cute and bursting with energy I started my job at Landor. There was a lot of fantastic material around the studio of the NORTHWEST “Bowling Shoe” livery, technical drawings, painted model aircraft, etc. One of my favorite models in the office was a 747-100 (I’m fairly sure a -100) sporting the new NORTHWEST CARGO livery. I loved that design, and at that time no other cargo aircraft looked so good. It was designed with great thought, as it kept the utilitarian look of a CARGO plane but had style too. The unique livery related back to the passenger 744 in a great way while standing apart, and naturally the wonderful NW circle/compass symbol.

There are many big international airlines today that have cargo divisions, with a separate CARGO livery that is a variation of the passenger version. NW did...why not AA, DL or UA?

Why did it go away?
Couldn’t the US3 put their old ac to use? (DC-10s, MD-11s, L-1011s, 767s, A300s, 742 & 3, even 744s, etc)
Signed,
Curious
Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1414
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:49 pm

Well, with 5X or FX offering 90c per kilo across the little pond and often the bigger pond to gain volumes......(Cargo/Co-load, NOT Express products) nowadays to forwarding firms , how are you going to compete with that sort of rate structure......? Look at Lufty Cargo´s or LX´s network, I don´t think they are making the money on US sectors, those are a mere network necessity to remain compeditive overall with a global footprint .
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
paullam
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:08 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:49 pm

This has been widely discussed just recently. Just use the search function on this site and you’ll find a long thread about this topic.
There’s no need to roll it out again right now.
712 733 734 735 737 738 739 744 752 763 77E 77L 77W 788 789 | A20N 318 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 388 | ASK21 | AT75 AT76 | BCS3 | C152 C172 C182 C210 | CR2 CR7 | DH8C DH8D | E190 | F70 F100 | LJ24 | PA31 | RJ85 RJ1H | SF34 | SU9 | YK2
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:31 pm

VC10er wrote:
Couldn’t the US3 put their old ac to use? (DC-10s, MD-11s, L-1011s, 767s, A300s, 742 & 3, even 744s, etc)
Signed,
Curious


Also Curious, who has these planes?
I can drive faster than you
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26295
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:39 pm

rlwynn wrote:
Also Curious, who has these planes?


Victorville, Mohave and other boneyards.
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:39 pm

paullam wrote:
This has been widely discussed just recently. Just use the search function on this site and you’ll find a long thread about this topic.
There’s no need to roll it out again right now.


I’m sorry I missed that. I will go search for it. Thanks
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
 
User avatar
neomax
Posts: 945
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:26 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:55 pm

I think the real question is why other airlines do have them. The US is fairly unique in its size and high rate of domestic shipment which necessities an extensive domestic network that is best handled with dedicated cargo airlines like FedEx, UPS, DHL, Kalitta, Prime, etc. Europe even has few such as Cargolux, Martinair, as well as the European divisions of FedEx, UPS, etc. But besides that, domestic markets are fairly small and best handled by ground instead of air, and transport between countries is more important than within countries. So for those countries, it makes more sense to set up a cargo subsidiary of the flag carrier and have them carry packages funneled from within the country to the main hub city of the carrier. AMS and KLM Cargo is a great example of this. The Netherlands is a small country, but it has a big cargo operation. So exports from throughout the country are trucked to Amsterdam and shipped on KLM freighters. This model works great for small countries, it is more difficult for large countries. Most countries that operate this way are (relatively) small and thus we have the likes of KLM Cargo, Emirates Cargo, Qatar Cargo, EVA Cargo, Cathay Pacific Cargo, Korean Air Cargo. All of these operate from a single main city in their home country which is ideal for such a model. As evident, the situation in the US is the complete opposite with domestic destinations often being the end goal, essentially requiring a cargo equivalent of a domestic passenger airline, which is why FedEx and UPS exist.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2983
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:56 pm

mdavies - thanks for the link. I know in times past the search function wasn't always quite up to speed. Also, a knowledgeable user of the site may know just which thread would best answer an OP request for a link.

A short answer to the OP is that the 777, 787, 350 can carry so much freight along with a full passenger load that the whole cargo business has changed. Heck, even WN carries enough cargo in those pesky no bin 737s that it is a significant freight carrier.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1836
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:21 pm

Well considering FedEx and UPS operations in the US it's really no surprise.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
User avatar
FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:06 pm

Domestically we typically use ground shipment to save money
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 2160
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:15 pm

Do FedEx and UPS really carry the same “kind” of cargo that other cargo airlines carry/carried?

They seem like a different style of operation, possibly serving a different market, than these other carriers. For example, I frequently read on here that cargo airlines tend to run out of weight before they run out of space, but that the opposite can be true for FX. I’m not suggesting that there should be a dedicated “United Cargo” or “Delta Cargo” fleet, because there's obviously a reason they don’t do it today. But it doesn’t seem like “because FedEx” is the only answer. It might be part of the answer, but not all of it.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1217
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:21 pm

VC10er wrote:
In 1991 when I was young, cute and bursting with energy I started my job at Landor. There was a lot of fantastic material around the studio of the NORTHWEST “Bowling Shoe” livery, technical drawings, painted model aircraft, etc. One of my favorite models in the office was a 747-100 (I’m fairly sure a -100) sporting the new NORTHWEST CARGO livery. I loved that design, and at that time no other cargo aircraft looked so good. It was designed with great thought, as it kept the utilitarian look of a CARGO plane but had style too. The unique livery related back to the passenger 744 in a great way while standing apart, and naturally the wonderful NW circle/compass symbol.

There are many big international airlines today that have cargo divisions, with a separate CARGO livery that is a variation of the passenger version. NW did...why not AA, DL or UA?

Why did it go away?
Couldn’t the US3 put their old ac to use? (DC-10s, MD-11s, L-1011s, 767s, A300s, 742 & 3, even 744s, etc)
Signed,
Curious

All Northwest 's 747 cargo aircraft were 200s. They had no 747-100 cargo aircraft. American Airlines converted some of their 747-123 passenger aircraft to freighters and used them for several years. United had some DC-10 freighters but I do not think they had any 747s as freighters. Northwest was the only combination airline that used freighters for an extensive time. The freighters went away when Northwest merged with Delta. The United States airlines haul all their cargo in the bellies of their passenger aircraft. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:45 pm

well, the US Majors carry freight in the bellies, some even do that on domestc flights, especially for Food perishables. In the early days all of them, PA, TW AA AA had 707 , 747 or DC8 freighters in their fleets. When FX started in the early 70s that was the end of that. With the massive operations of FX and UPS with main deck serviced available and simplified procedures, it does not make much sense to operate main deck freighters.

Even in Europe, there is only one real combination carrier flying own metal and that is LH.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
teachpdx
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:49 pm

AS has a rather active cargo-only subsidiary, and the recent arrival of a few 737-700 BDSF to replace the old Combis has caused it to grow even more. Out of any US airline it makes the most sense with the remoteness of Alaska and the challenge of shipping cargo to/from via road or ship.
Up Next: DL PDX-ATL-TPA | DL TPA-SLC-PDX | DI SEA-LGW | AF CDG-PRG | OK PRG-CPH | D8 CPH-LGW | DI LGW-SEA
 
User avatar
ua900
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:14 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:50 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
Do FedEx and UPS really carry the same “kind” of cargo that other cargo airlines carry/carried?

They seem like a different style of operation, possibly serving a different market, than these other carriers. For example, I frequently read on here that cargo airlines tend to run out of weight before they run out of space, but that the opposite can be true for FX. I’m not suggesting that there should be a dedicated “United Cargo” or “Delta Cargo” fleet, because there's obviously a reason they don’t do it today. But it doesn’t seem like “because FedEx” is the only answer. It might be part of the answer, but not all of it.


No, they don't. FedEx and UPS are world leaders in what they do. The US is their home market, and it's a huge market in spite of naysayers. 96% of the US domestic air cargo market is owned by these two players. Wanna try to butt in? Go ahead, you're in for a treat. Very distinct from the US passenger airlines where you frequently hear how they're sub par when compared to LH or SQ, and most cargo carriers, which have much smaller addressable home markets. FedEx and UPS always deliver, and the solid ownership of the US market is a veritable gold mine, the bedrock from which they can take on any global competitor.

Is LH Cargo or even DHL Aviation able to challenge them stateside? No! Look at the volume of feeder flights, the availability of large commercial airfields that see little scheduled passenger traffic. LEJ is nice, but in the US there's 50 LEJs, not just one. Places like MEM, SDF, and CVG are huge with the ability to expand much further, governments there are willing to do whatever it takes to generate additional traffic and the jobs that represents.
2018: AMS | ARN | CDG | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUM | HAM | HKG | HNL | IAH | LAX | MIA | MUC | ORD | RSW | SAL | SFO | SIN | TLV | TXL | VIE | ZRH
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:21 pm

Thanks mdavies06. I will check out the thread.
Also to everyone else here. I knew I would get many good reasons why, I just didn’t know them.
It was only a few years after that we did the FedEx brand identity at Landor. For every design option presented we had a model MD-11 mocked up and shot it hanging in front of a giant swept sky image - the identity you see today was in the first presentation. Fred Smith didn’t request one change...that is very, very rare!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
bgm
Posts: 2076
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:40 pm

The US3 are cargo carriers of sorts, they treat their passengers like self-loading cargo... :duck:
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3420
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:18 pm

Back when I started work at a freight forwarder in the early 1980's UA had a large cargo operation using DC-8F's with ORD as the hub. We used them on a nightly basis. If my memory serves me correctly after all these years, the reason they ended up dumping them was when it was time to upgrade them to meet new noise regulations, it was determined that they could haul most of that cargo in their domestic DC-10's and 747's which they flew to most major destinations back in the day. Spending the money get get the DC-8's into compliance wasn't worth it .
AA had some 747 freighters as well, we didn't use AA nearly as much as UA. And of course NW had the 747-F's for quite a long time.
 
trex8
Posts: 5321
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:36 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
mdavies - thanks for the link. I know in times past the search function wasn't always quite up to speed. Also, a knowledgeable user of the site may know just which thread would best answer an OP request for a link.

A short answer to the OP is that the 777, 787, 350 can carry so much freight along with a full passenger load that the whole cargo business has changed. Heck, even WN carries enough cargo in those pesky no bin 737s that it is a significant freight carrier.

It may seem like a lot of cargo, but it also doesnt travel very far. By FTKs, except for the big 2 and Atlas, the next largest US cargo carrier is 23 in world ranking, UA
http://aircargoworld.com/allposts/freig ... ers-chart/
 
BlueberryWheats
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:46 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:00 pm

VC10er wrote:
Couldn’t the US3 put their old ac to use? (DC-10s, MD-11s, L-1011s, 767s, A300s, 742 & 3, even 744s, etc)
Signed,
Curious


No qualified aircrew
No simulators
No parts
No maintenance facilities
No airworthiness certificates/non-complaince with airworthiness directives.
Noise compliance
Not so modern avionics
Horrendous fuel consumption

Just a few things I can think of that will throw a horrendously big spanner in the works.
 
Max Q
Posts: 7543
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:25 pm

paullam wrote:
This has been widely discussed just recently. Just use the search function on this site and you’ll find a long thread about this topic.
There’s no need to roll it out again right now.



The poster asks a question, whether it’s been asked before is irrelevant on an enthusiast site


There’s always new responses from different contributors providing new information of interest to many of us


If you don’t like the topic you don’t have to read it.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
bob75013
Posts: 814
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:03 pm

Max Q wrote:
paullam wrote:
This has been widely discussed just recently. Just use the search function on this site and you’ll find a long thread about this topic.
There’s no need to roll it out again right now.



The poster asks a question, whether it’s been asked before is irrelevant on an enthusiast site


There’s always new responses from different contributors providing new information of interest to many of us


If you don’t like the topic you don’t have to read it.


And yet, what use is it to continually repeat things that have been said before in other threads?
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:22 pm

His second paragraph covers it.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2761
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:44 pm

In the lower 48 (Hawaiian Airlines does have some dedicated ATR freighters operated by Empire, and Alaska Airlines has three B737BDSFs for milk runs in Alaska), there are not any real destinations that can't support passenger traffic but can't also be accessed by truck, which is why there is no dedicated freight service among the regularly-scheduled passenger airlines of the USA in the lower 48. Freight can be trucked to and from an airport, where it then flies as belly cargo. As for TATL, TPAC, or to South America, there are dedicated cargo forwarders who can do that job. The rise of FedEx and UPS have negated a need for that.

In Europe, however, there are destinations that warrant cargo service but not passenger service, which is the niche Lufthansa Cargo fills especially. LH (DLH) also has a large fleet of A388s and B744/B748 aircraft, which are not ideal belly cargo carriers, thus necessitating the dedicated LH (GEC) freighters. If LH were to swap B77Ws from LX for A359s at LH (DLH), that issue might be partially resolved. But in Europe, they're an oddity where they're the only major company to have a cargo airline on a separate AOC (actually 2, GEC and the JV with DHL, 3S).
 
32andBelow
Posts: 3966
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:21 pm

Because they have enormous cargo capacity available to them through their extensive passenger networks.
 
77H
Posts: 1432
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:57 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
Do FedEx and UPS really carry the same “kind” of cargo that other cargo airlines carry/carried?

They seem like a different style of operation, possibly serving a different market, than these other carriers. For example, I frequently read on here that cargo airlines tend to run out of weight before they run out of space, but that the opposite can be true for FX. I’m not suggesting that there should be a dedicated “United Cargo” or “Delta Cargo” fleet, because there's obviously a reason they don’t do it today. But it doesn’t seem like “because FedEx” is the only answer. It might be part of the answer, but not all of it.


It depends on the market but I have heard exactly that from FX Reps. Many of their flights “dim-out” well before reaching max payload. From what I’ve seen FX/5X tend to carry lighter but more bulky freight. The airline I work for tends to carry more dense cargo, at least out of the region I work in.

Most of the clients I deal with have never shipped their products with FX/5X but do utilize the passenger carrier’s extensively.

77H
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:12 am

Cynics might say they make more than enough money carrying domestic passengers like cargo.

Part of the real explanation presumably is when post and freight were separated from carrying passengers, specialists climbed into the space, and do it very well. And pricing (from scale and consolidation), other than Amazon, is a barrier to new entrants.

US-based airlines carry freight for the specialist freight companies, so still in the business.
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1414
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:18 am

77H wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Do FedEx and UPS really carry the same “kind” of cargo that other cargo airlines carry/carried?

They seem like a different style of operation, possibly serving a different market, than these other carriers. For example, I frequently read on here that cargo airlines tend to run out of weight before they run out of space, but that the opposite can be true for FX. I’m not suggesting that there should be a dedicated “United Cargo” or “Delta Cargo” fleet, because there's obviously a reason they don’t do it today. But it doesn’t seem like “because FedEx” is the only answer. It might be part of the answer, but not all of it.


It depends on the market but I have heard exactly that from FX Reps. Many of their flights “dim-out” well before reaching max payload. From what I’ve seen FX/5X tend to carry lighter but more bulky freight. The airline I work for tends to carry more dense cargo, at least out of the region I work in.

Most of the clients I deal with have never shipped their products with FX/5X but do utilize the passenger carrier’s extensively.

77H


There is a misconception about the integrators in this regard. they certainly can and will sell airport to airport cargo only, it just does not seem that well known and everyone thinks they deal with integrator or express freight only. that is certainly not the case at all, both for FX and 5X...………..

https://www.ups.com/aircargo/using/custserv/contacts-index.html

https://www.fedex.com/en-us/shipping/charters.html
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7750
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:40 am

Well I think the correct answer is that they do have cargo subsidiaries, all of them. American, Delta, United, Etc. However, they don't fly dedicated cargo aircraft, but rather ship the cargo in belly space on their passenger runs. The reason it would be crazy to fly dedicated cargo aircraft is that the labor cost would be ridiculous compared to what cargo only carriers pay. UPS and FedEx, which are Express carriers, not cargo carriers, do pay in line with the premier passenger carriers, but the rest do not, and there would be a significant drop in the amount of cargo shipped if prices had to rise to the level necessary to sustain dedicated cargo flights at Mainline carrier crew wages.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3812
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:10 am

hOMSaR wrote:
Do FedEx and UPS really carry the same “kind” of cargo that other cargo airlines carry/carried?

They seem like a different style of operation, possibly serving a different market, than these other carriers. For example, I frequently read on here that cargo airlines tend to run out of weight before they run out of space, but that the opposite can be true for FX. I’m not suggesting that there should be a dedicated “United Cargo” or “Delta Cargo” fleet, because there's obviously a reason they don’t do it today. But it doesn’t seem like “because FedEx” is the only answer. It might be part of the answer, but not all of it.

when driving across the USA you can count on seeing long haul and local truckers pass you every 15-20 seconds in the opposite direction some of them single 53' trailers or dual and even triple 27' ft rigs. Fedec Ground and UPS ground both have numerous trucks on the road at any time and really only need Airplanes for express shipments or time sensitive shipments if not going overseas, and they also have extensive ocean shipping networks as well.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2421
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:46 am

ua900 wrote:

No, they don't. FedEx and UPS are world leaders in what they do. The US is their home market, and it's a huge market in spite of naysayers. 96% of the US domestic air cargo market is owned by these two players. Wanna try to butt in? Go ahead, you're in for a treat. Very distinct from the US passenger airlines where you frequently hear how they're sub par when compared to LH or SQ, and most cargo carriers, which have much smaller addressable home markets. FedEx and UPS always deliver, and the solid ownership of the US market is a veritable gold mine, the bedrock from which they can take on any global competitor.

Is LH Cargo or even DHL Aviation able to challenge them stateside? No! Look at the volume of feeder flights, the availability of large commercial airfields that see little scheduled passenger traffic. LEJ is nice, but in the US there's 50 LEJs, not just one. Places like MEM, SDF, and CVG are huge with the ability to expand much further, governments there are willing to do whatever it takes to generate additional traffic and the jobs that represents.


1. The 'world' leader in express freight is DHL. However, due to the size of the US market both UPS and FedEx are bigger. But internationally, DHL is the proverbial 800 lbs gorilla.
2. The reason US carriers abandoned cargo lies in a history of successive Ch. 11 proceedings, making investments in cargo aircraft less appealing. Moving cargo by air is hard, particularly when your home market is dominated by two integrators.
3. DHL is regarded as the 'gold standard' internationally, neither FedEx nor UPS
4. DHL Aviation is the arm of DHL running their hubs and gateways. DHL Express is the mothership.
5. MEM and SDF ranks 2nd and 7th on a list of busiest cargo airports in the world, with ANC ranked 4th. LEJ ranks 26th and CVG doesn't even make top 30.
Signature. You just read one.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:50 am

To whom it may concern: Alaska is not part of the lower 48
US carriers do not have cargo subsidiaries. they have cargo departments
LX does not (yet) operate A359s
GEC is the call sign for LH Cargo which is a separate corporation in the LH Group. They operate 17 main deck freighters and sell the belly space on LH Group carriers.

I might add that FRA, the öargest Airport in Germany, ranks 11th narrowly beaten by CDG, with 2.166 mio tons they are ahead of LAX and MIA
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Max Q
Posts: 7543
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:03 am

B777LRF wrote:
ua900 wrote:

No, they don't. FedEx and UPS are world leaders in what they do. The US is their home market, and it's a huge market in spite of naysayers. 96% of the US domestic air cargo market is owned by these two players. Wanna try to butt in? Go ahead, you're in for a treat. Very distinct from the US passenger airlines where you frequently hear how they're sub par when compared to LH or SQ, and most cargo carriers, which have much smaller addressable home markets. FedEx and UPS always deliver, and the solid ownership of the US market is a veritable gold mine, the bedrock from which they can take on any global competitor.

Is LH Cargo or even DHL Aviation able to challenge them stateside? No! Look at the volume of feeder flights, the availability of large commercial airfields that see little scheduled passenger traffic. LEJ is nice, but in the US there's 50 LEJs, not just one. Places like MEM, SDF, and CVG are huge with the ability to expand much further, governments there are willing to do whatever it takes to generate additional traffic and the jobs that represents.


1. The 'world' leader in express freight is DHL. However, due to the size of the US market both UPS and FedEx are bigger. But internationally, DHL is the proverbial 800 lbs gorilla.
2. The reason US carriers abandoned cargo lies in a history of successive Ch. 11 proceedings, making investments in cargo aircraft less appealing. Moving cargo by air is hard, particularly when your home market is dominated by two integrators.
3. DHL is regarded as the 'gold standard' internationally, neither FedEx nor UPS
4. DHL Aviation is the arm of DHL running their hubs and gateways. DHL Express is the mothership.
5. MEM and SDF ranks 2nd and 7th on a list of busiest cargo airports in the world, with ANC ranked 4th. LEJ ranks 26th and CVG doesn't even make top 30.




FedEx is the gold standard in shipping


It’s not even close
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:21 am

not when you read the post carefully and consider the word "internationally"
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2421
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:21 am

Max Q wrote:

FedEx is the gold standard in shipping


It’s not even close


Not even remotely so. The gold standard in shipping by air is Lufthansa Cargo, for integrators it's DHL, but overall it's Maersk Line. In this respect, FedEx is but an afterthought.
Signature. You just read one.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:50 pm

Well, you can ship domestic on FX and UPS CtoC or BtoC or even CtoB from 1 lbs upwards. Try that with UP or BNSF, a car load would be the Minimum and a block Trains is preferred. Check the Webcams you'll see FedeX air and ground, UPS and a lot of plain Trailers or Containers. Some of them may contain 3r day air shipments.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
tjh8402
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:20 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:50 pm

Let’s also keep in mind that as crummy as US passenger service is, our freight railroad network is one of the best in the world ( it’s one reason our passenger rail network is so poor; we are focused on freight). It’s very easy and cost effective to ship things by rail here.
 
77H
Posts: 1432
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:09 pm

cougar15 wrote:
77H wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Do FedEx and UPS really carry the same “kind” of cargo that other cargo airlines carry/carried?

They seem like a different style of operation, possibly serving a different market, than these other carriers. For example, I frequently read on here that cargo airlines tend to run out of weight before they run out of space, but that the opposite can be true for FX. I’m not suggesting that there should be a dedicated “United Cargo” or “Delta Cargo” fleet, because there's obviously a reason they don’t do it today. But it doesn’t seem like “because FedEx” is the only answer. It might be part of the answer, but not all of it.


It depends on the market but I have heard exactly that from FX Reps. Many of their flights “dim-out” well before reaching max payload. From what I’ve seen FX/5X tend to carry lighter but more bulky freight. The airline I work for tends to carry more dense cargo, at least out of the region I work in.

Most of the clients I deal with have never shipped their products with FX/5X but do utilize the passenger carrier’s extensively.

77H


There is a misconception about the integrators in this regard. they certainly can and will sell airport to airport cargo only, it just does not seem that well known and everyone thinks they deal with integrator or express freight only. that is certainly not the case at all, both for FX and 5X...………..

https://www.ups.com/aircargo/using/custserv/contacts-index.html

https://www.fedex.com/en-us/shipping/charters.html


Just so I understand... are you telling me that the 3 MEM based Project Engineers at FX I spoke to after a meeting last fall have no understanding of what’s onboard their aircraft? Were they lying to me?

If you’ll recall my post, I said it depends on the market, which is true of any airline, integrator, dedicated or belly. Sure, there are certainly routes FX/5X operate that hit payload before filling all available positions. But there are also routes they operate that dim out long before hitting max payload.

Kid you not, I’ve seen purple tail MD11s and 77Fs cross 2000 ft over the piano keys at the opposite end of HNL’s reef runway. Can you provide me with one extant commercial airliner that can perform near or at max payload ?

77H
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:19 pm

B777LRF wrote:
ua900 wrote:

No, they don't. FedEx and UPS are world leaders in what they do. The US is their home market, and it's a huge market in spite of naysayers. 96% of the US domestic air cargo market is owned by these two players. Wanna try to butt in? Go ahead, you're in for a treat. Very distinct from the US passenger airlines where you frequently hear how they're sub par when compared to LH or SQ, and most cargo carriers, which have much smaller addressable home markets. FedEx and UPS always deliver, and the solid ownership of the US market is a veritable gold mine, the bedrock from which they can take on any global competitor.

Is LH Cargo or even DHL Aviation able to challenge them stateside? No! Look at the volume of feeder flights, the availability of large commercial airfields that see little scheduled passenger traffic. LEJ is nice, but in the US there's 50 LEJs, not just one. Places like MEM, SDF, and CVG are huge with the ability to expand much further, governments there are willing to do whatever it takes to generate additional traffic and the jobs that represents.


1. The 'world' leader in express freight is DHL. However, due to the size of the US market both UPS and FedEx are bigger. But internationally, DHL is the proverbial 800 lbs gorilla.
2. The reason US carriers abandoned cargo lies in a history of successive Ch. 11 proceedings, making investments in cargo aircraft less appealing. Moving cargo by air is hard, particularly when your home market is dominated by two integrators.
3. DHL is regarded as the 'gold standard' internationally, neither FedEx nor UPS
4. DHL Aviation is the arm of DHL running their hubs and gateways. DHL Express is the mothership.
5. MEM and SDF ranks 2nd and 7th on a list of busiest cargo airports in the world, with ANC ranked 4th. LEJ ranks 26th and CVG doesn't even make top 30.

Yeah, no. They don’t even own the German package market. If it wasn’t for Duetche post DHL wouldn’t even be close to second place. Nevermind number one.

UPS literally has more daily flights from Cologne, a hub that is night and day compared to WorldPort, than DHL has from LEJ, their primary hub. Worldwide FX is leading the way, but DHL is third at best looking at every metric. My second tier UPS hub will do more volume tonight that DHL will do at their primary global sorting facility.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2421
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:56 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Yeah, no. They don’t even own the German package market. If it wasn’t for Duetche post DHL wouldn’t even be close to second place. Nevermind number one.

UPS literally has more daily flights from Cologne, a hub that is night and day compared to WorldPort, than DHL has from LEJ, their primary hub. Worldwide FX is leading the way, but DHL is third at best looking at every metric. My second tier UPS hub will do more volume tonight that DHL will do at their primary global sorting facility.


Well, as a consumer I'm rather happy no single commercial entity 'owns' any market. But if that's what floats your boat, have at it.

Just for the record, here's the breakdown of international market share for integrators:

Image

As for number of flights, you're quite right that UPS floats more planes pr day out of CGN than DHL does out of LEJ. Big deal; UPS has one hub in Europe whilst DHL has 7 (BGY, BRU, CGN, CPH, EMA, LEJ & VIT).
Signature. You just read one.
 
User avatar
Bjm0517
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:41 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?un

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:30 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Domestically we typically use ground shipment to save money


Unless I really need to get something somewhere fast, or something internationally shipped to me, or a long distance (NYC-LA) ground shipping is the easier alternative.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5945
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:52 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Just for the record, here's the breakdown of international market share for integrators:

Image


TNT is FedEx.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:25 pm

tjh8402 wrote:
Let’s also keep in mind that as crummy as US passenger service is, our freight railroad network is one of the best in the world ( it’s one reason our passenger rail network is so poor; we are focused on freight). It’s very easy and cost effective to ship things by rail here.


Well, it may be cost effective but US trains are timr consuming. I am (in addition to my flying dayjob) a partner in a company that imports US products from Ohio. Getting containers on a train from OH to an east coast port can take a week to 10 days, and apparently routinely via Chicago... Trucking is far better, but more costly.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:39 pm

Which freight company covers the most countries with door-to-door service? Which freight company handles essential documents for global business? I think that company is DHL. FedEx is good at delivering cat food in bulk to apartment buildings for a good price in American cities.
 
User avatar
FCOTSTW
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:03 pm

There you go, you have just called it:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Alaska-A ... SF/5083133
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7750
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:52 pm

Flighty wrote:
Which freight company covers the most countries with door-to-door service? Which freight company handles essential documents for global business? I think that company is DHL. FedEx is good at delivering cat food in bulk to apartment buildings for a good price in American cities.


C'mon, Man. You're better than that. In the world's biggest economy by far (hint, the US, which is 25 percent of the world's GNP and still almost twice as large in GNP as #2 China), FedEx is hands-down the dominant player for business documents. Every law firm, brokerage, auction house, bank, credit card company -- anybody that needs to move an important business item overnight or faster -- uses FedEx (and UPS where they offer a big company a better price).
 
User avatar
dennypayne
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:38 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:27 am

wjcandee wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Which freight company covers the most countries with door-to-door service? Which freight company handles essential documents for global business? I think that company is DHL. FedEx is good at delivering cat food in bulk to apartment buildings for a good price in American cities.


C'mon, Man. You're better than that. In the world's biggest economy by far (hint, the US, which is 25 percent of the world's GNP and still almost twice as large in GNP as #2 China), FedEx is hands-down the dominant player for business documents. Every law firm, brokerage, auction house, bank, credit card company -- anybody that needs to move an important business item overnight or faster -- uses FedEx (and UPS where they offer a big company a better price).


:checkmark: :checkmark:

I've even gotten solicitations (i.e., essentially junk mail) via FedEx several times. 99 times out of a 100 if I'm ordering something from a retailer, USPS, FedEx, and UPS are the only options. Amazon alone accounts for a huge portion of US cargo - no DHL option. I don't ever recall seeing DHL listed except for the very few times I've purchased something directly from China.
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 AT72 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 742/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788
CR2/7/9 D8S D9S D95 DHC2/3/7/8 D328 E110/120/135/140/145/170/175/190
F100 J31 L1011 L410 M11/80/90 RJ85 S340 SSJ100 T134/154 Y42
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2761
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:54 am

FCOTSTW wrote:
There you go, you have just called it:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Alaska-A ... SF/5083133


I think the OP means within the lower 48. Alaska is unique.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: Why don’t US passenger airlines have CARGO subsidiaries?

Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:20 am

The real answer is that cargo revenue just isn't worth what it used to be. If you look at US airline financials these days, cargo makes up less than 2% of revenues. That used to be significant when airlines were only marginally profitable, but these days they're operating with much higher margins and adding in the cost/complexity of a cargo only fleet, just isn't worth it.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos