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enilria
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Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:27 am

Not the first time firing your own ground staff at a "hub" has gone badly.

The company that took over Sun Country’s ground operations two months ago at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport didn’t — or couldn’t — hire workers fast enough, forcing the airline to send staffers from its Eagan headquarters to clean airplanes and check-in passengers.

On Thursday, the airline said it was ending the contract with the company, Global Aviation Services LLC of Toronto, and starting to again hire people for the work itself, at least temporarily.

“The service level that has been provided at MSP is not up to our standard,” Jessica Wheeler, a Sun Country spokeswoman, said. Sun Country laid off 350 ground service workers in May, including ticketing agents, gate agents and wheelchair assistants, after it had it hired Global Aviation Services in February to do such work. Sun Country also hired Global Aviation Services for baggage handling and airplane cleaning services, which it previously contracted to Swissport International Ltd. For now, Sun Country is seeking workers that it will directly hire, train and pay to handle the groundwork at MSP, where it operates about 45 flights a day. The airline hopes to find another contractor to manage such work by fall. Since the changeover in May, staffing problems snowballed throughout the summer at the airline’s gates and desk in MSP’s Terminal 2. Sun Country chief executive Jude Bricker personally asked headquarters’ employees to volunteer at ticket counters or pick up trash between flights.


http://www.startribune.com/after-troubl ... 488670661/
 
nkops
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:40 am

So they want to hire people who will just get laid off when they find another contractor? Do I understand that correctly
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:40 am

What idiots an SY think anyone in their right mind would ant to get on with them only to know that fairly soon they will be axed?
I used to be a SY supporter and hoped that they would do well and evolve into something worth a crap. Well, they are crap now and seems to me stuff like this only reinforces what I see them becoming.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
SPREE34
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:56 am

How many times must this lesson be learned? Let me guess. Bean Counters came up with this, sold it to the top floor, who didn't seek input from front line people, so didn't understand how their airline actually functions. Whatever. Southwest can pick up the jet leases in a few months.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:01 am

Too bad, soo bad. I hear the world's tiniest violin playing at the moment.

SY in 2018 may have been the fastest airline to lost whatever goodwill they had, alienate their hometown market, and continue the race to the bottom.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:01 am

IMO, anyone who buys a ticket on SunCountry deserves exactly what they get.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
flyguy84
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:25 am

Sun Country isn’t going to be around much longer.
SFO
 
Chemist
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:29 am

Seems like the new management is a disaster.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:43 am

Throw the whole airline away!

SPREE34 wrote:
How many times must this lesson be learned? Let me guess. Bean Counters came up with this, sold it to the top floor, who didn't seek input from front line people, so didn't understand how their airline actually functions. Whatever. Southwest can pick up the jet leases in a few months.


Those leases are probably on bad terms. I don't see WN taking on those leases. Whatever B38Ms or spare B738s they have could be used instead, as WN has a much stronger position and can get better lease (or leaseback) terms. The planes WN leases secondhand are generally planes that might otherwise get scrapped, as WN is the major market for the 737-700.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:07 am

I love when a vendor completely fails and the company has to justify their decision.

Image

It’s time for the outsourcing to end and these contract companies to go out of business. They are bottom feeding leeches feeding off the greed of corporate America.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:29 am

Every person that I have talked to said that Global wouldn't last long. All are former or current SY employees. The main reason SY hired their own ground staff was lack of attention to detail. The groomers came on board as the cleaning sucked, have cleaned planes. They hired their own agents to take better care of the passengers. As a former employee, I was disappointed with the actions of the new "CEO". Did he leave G4 on his own, or was he shown the door??. The Davis Family hired him, but now they don't even own the company any more. Folks at Apollo, the new owners, need to dump the current CEO. On a FB page some are joking about starting a "GO FUND ME" to raise money to buy SY back.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:39 am

I called this from Day 1. I know a guy that was offered the GAS GM job at MSP and he turned it down because he had other options and the pay was lower than his unemployment. Even the current GM has a second job as a male model to make ends meet (no I'm not making that up). I'm sure GAS is successful at other stations but their payscale is far too low to work at MSP and their results show it.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:51 am

Bye bye Sun Country. Wonder who will get the jet leases/MSP routes. Southwest? Alaska?
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:21 am

You get what you pay for. You want cheap workers you get cheap results.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:18 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Bye bye Sun Country. Wonder who will get the jet leases/MSP routes. Southwest? Alaska?


Who would want those leases? Just acquire aircraft on better terms. WN has acquired used B737s, but Alaska doesn't lease used aircraft (the ex-VX fleet was all bought or leased new).
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:29 am

SY is not going out of business. They have made some missteps but are still making money. I don't how some of you made the jump from contractor problems to SY going belly up.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:29 am

sunking737 wrote:
Every person that I have talked to said that Global wouldn't last long. All are former or current SY employees. The main reason SY hired their own ground staff was lack of attention to detail. The groomers came on board as the cleaning sucked, have cleaned planes. They hired their own agents to take better care of the passengers. As a former employee, I was disappointed with the actions of the new "CEO". Did he leave G4 on his own, or was he shown the door??. The Davis Family hired him, but now they don't even own the company any more. Folks at Apollo, the new owners, need to dump the current CEO. On a FB page some are joking about starting a "GO FUND ME" to raise money to buy SY back.


Maybe Jude Bricker needs to stop begging HQ employees to work the ticket counters and clean planes and do it himself since he is the one who F'd it all up.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:35 am

Remember a few years back when UA outsourced a bunch of the ground staff in DEN and planes would regularly wait 30 minutes to park on a clear blue day with lots of gates available, pax would wait an hour or more for bags at DEN baggage claim, and a/c would get to their destinations without half of their passenger’s bags?
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:07 pm

I love the modern business world. In an attempt to save money company outsource works to others, with a promise they can do all sorts of stuff, and when they win they have no people to actually implement said agreement and have to go out and find them! Its not a great way to do stuff. Hope you can find enough competent people if you win! Presumably the contractor sells themselves on their ability to "manage" better the same basic group of people who would be doing the work if either company was doing the work.

Contracting out work often is cheaper initially, but once these thing have been in place a while the costs tend to rise as there is now no internal group of employees to bid against reducing the competition for cost and the contracted services start to rise in price, with no one realizing what is happening.
 
slider
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:11 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
SY is not going out of business. They have made some missteps but are still making money. I don't how some of you made the jump from contractor problems to SY going belly up.


Thank you for being a voice of reason! I too was startled by the reactionary responses of a few here. Also, SY has a robust charter business too. They'll be OK, but the questions about their leadership are valid.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:12 pm

History repeats itself. People never learn.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
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par13del
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:13 pm

In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....
 
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DL747400
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:14 pm

par13del wrote:
In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....


Wow, you really like kool-aid, don't you?
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
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United_fan
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:14 pm

Great idea. You can your people who know what they're doing and hire a cheap contractor. I think we've seen this be fore (United Express @ DEN). SY deserves what they get.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
Boof02671
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:29 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Remember a few years back when UA outsourced a bunch of the ground staff in DEN and planes would regularly wait 30 minutes to park on a clear blue day with lots of gates available, pax would wait an hour or more for bags at DEN baggage claim, and a/c would get to their destinations without half of their passenger’s bags?

They didn’t outsource mainline work, it was Express and in DEN it’s back to mainline employees working Express.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:19 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:

It’s time for the outsourcing to end and these contract companies to go out of business. They are bottom feeding leeches feeding off the greed of corporate America.


There are good vendors, and there are companies who know how to select and work with good vendors. Sun Country failed. That doesn't mean the multi-$Billion work of aviation contract services is all failure.

Many of the the same people enjoying schadenfreude and looking forward to the end of Sun Country will be the ones complaining about lack of competition in the U.S. domestic market and Delta's higher prices out of MSP.
 
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enilria
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:26 pm

par13del wrote:
In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....

They outsourced because everybody else in their competitor space has. No doubt if they want to be a ULCC they almost had to in order to get costs where they want them to be. Having said that, AS/F9/NK/YX and others have done the exact same thing and it initially went exactly the same way. I guess it is a rite of passage. Bad for customers, bad for employees, but it's a stubbed toe everybody else has also endured.
Last edited by enilria on Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:33 pm

And AS has now created their own ramp vendor McGee and unionized with the IAM and have a contract.

Their vendors sucked.
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:35 pm

enilria wrote:
par13del wrote:
In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....

They outsourced because everybody else in their competitor space has. No doubt if they want to be a ULCC they almost had to in order to get costs where they want them to be. Having said that, AS/YX and others have done the exact same thing and it initially went exactly the same way. I guess it is a rite of passage. Bad for customers, bad for employees, but it's a stubbed toe everybody else has also endured.


LMAO. Some of us that have worked in the industry know something is fishy at SY. I don't have the original data but something has been wacked since Bricker came on board.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

It’s time for the outsourcing to end and these contract companies to go out of business. They are bottom feeding leeches feeding off the greed of corporate America.


There are good vendors, and there are companies who know how to select and work with good vendors. Sun Country failed. That doesn't mean the multi-$Billion work of aviation contract services is all failure.

Many of the the same people enjoying schadenfreude and looking forward to the end of Sun Country will be the ones complaining about lack of competition in the U.S. domestic market and Delta's higher prices out of MSP.


They are all leeches that have allowed the airlines to convert good middle class jobs into a poverty level grindhouse.
 
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enilria
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:52 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
enilria wrote:
par13del wrote:
In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....

They outsourced because everybody else in their competitor space has. No doubt if they want to be a ULCC they almost had to in order to get costs where they want them to be. Having said that, AS/YX and others have done the exact same thing and it initially went exactly the same way. I guess it is a rite of passage. Bad for customers, bad for employees, but it's a stubbed toe everybody else has also endured.


LMAO. Some of us that have worked in the industry know something is fishy at SY. I don't have the original data but something has been wacked since Bricker came on board.

The prior owner was definitely pretty "fishy". http://www.startribune.com/five-years-l ... 224430151/

I don't have any reason to think the new owner is "fishy" yet. Again, this contracting screw up makes them far from an outlier...it's sadly quite common.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:54 pm

In true corporate idiocy. They fired ground personnel to save money. But then used corporate salaried people to do the job the contractors were unable to do. Thus raising their labor costs.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:59 pm

enilria wrote:
par13del wrote:
In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....

They outsourced because everybody else in their competitor space has. No doubt if they want to be a ULCC they almost had to in order to get costs where they want them to be. Having said that, AS/F9/NK/YX and others have done the exact same thing and it initially went exactly the same way. I guess it is a rite of passage. Bad for customers, bad for employees, but it's a stubbed toe everybody else has also endured.


The NK operation at DFW was such a disaster with with ATS contracted employees that couldn't handle IROP's etc. that the airport police would show up at least twice a week to handle passenger mutiny's
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:26 pm

I have never really understood the business model for outsourcing your hub. I can understand outsourcing a small outstation where it is more efficient to have employees that can be shared between carriers. At your hub, the contractor is only serving you so I do not see where the savings are coming from - it seems like it would be less profitable because you have to pay the contractors profit margin and have staff to manage the contract instead of just managing everything in house.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:56 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

It’s time for the outsourcing to end and these contract companies to go out of business. They are bottom feeding leeches feeding off the greed of corporate America.


There are good vendors, and there are companies who know how to select and work with good vendors. Sun Country failed. That doesn't mean the multi-$Billion work of aviation contract services is all failure.

Many of the the same people enjoying schadenfreude and looking forward to the end of Sun Country will be the ones complaining about lack of competition in the U.S. domestic market and Delta's higher prices out of MSP.


Vendors are definitely a necessity for an airline if you operate fewer than say 6 flights a day or only a couple of flights a week at a station.

However, axing your loyal staff at your largest base of operations, is just pure scumbagery.


Alaska Air Group.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

It’s time for the outsourcing to end and these contract companies to go out of business. They are bottom feeding leeches feeding off the greed of corporate America.


There are good vendors, and there are companies who know how to select and work with good vendors. Sun Country failed. That doesn't mean the multi-$Billion work of aviation contract services is all failure.

Many of the the same people enjoying schadenfreude and looking forward to the end of Sun Country will be the ones complaining about lack of competition in the U.S. domestic market and Delta's higher prices out of MSP.


Vendors are definitely a necessity for an airline if you operate fewer than say 6 flights a day or only a couple of flights a week at a station.

However, axing your loyal staff at your largest base of operations, is just pure scumbagery.
 
jetlanta
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:03 pm

enilria wrote:
par13del wrote:
In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....

They outsourced because everybody else in their competitor space has. No doubt if they want to be a ULCC they almost had to in order to get costs where they want them to be. Having said that, AS/F9/NK/YX and others have done the exact same thing and it initially went exactly the same way. I guess it is a rite of passage. Bad for customers, bad for employees, but it's a stubbed toe everybody else has also endured.



I completely agree with you. Hell, the legacies, especially Delta, went through exactly the same thing in the 90's. The missing piece of all of the criticism above is that no one here sees the books. SY, as it was pre-Jude, was unsustainable. It HAS to change or die. And the only pathway is to become a ULCC. They've made some missteps and moved quicker than perhaps they were ready for. But the senior leadership is top-notch. They are good people trying to do the right thing to save and grow the company. It is safe to say that the moves are a cultural shock for a very small company. It is also safe to say that they didn't have the management depth required to execute all of this in such a short period of time. They've been on a management hiring spree in order to support the change because it is massive and requires significant resources to execute. Clearly, there is more to do. But Jude's team is excellent and well-respected in the industry. Give them time to work out the kinks.
 
max999
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:19 pm

Elementalism wrote:
In true corporate idiocy. They fired ground personnel to save money. But then used corporate salaried people to do the job the contractors were unable to do. Thus raising their labor costs.


I think Sun Country is getting free labor from the corporate salaried people. They just need to tell the "volunteers" they are still 100% responsible for their normal day to day jobs. Those "volunteers" do 8 hours scrubbing airplane toilets starting at 430 am then go back to the office and do another 8 hours finishing their normal job. Since they are salaried, the "volunteers" aren't going to see a single cent in overtime pay. [Cynical] Brilliant!
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:33 pm

I hope for the remaining employees sake a real airline buys them
 
Elementalism
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:05 pm

max999 wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
In true corporate idiocy. They fired ground personnel to save money. But then used corporate salaried people to do the job the contractors were unable to do. Thus raising their labor costs.


I think Sun Country is getting free labor from the corporate salaried people. They just need to tell the "volunteers" they are still 100% responsible for their normal day to day jobs. Those "volunteers" do 8 hours scrubbing airplane toilets starting at 430 am then go back to the office and do another 8 hours finishing their normal job. Since they are salaried, the "volunteers" aren't going to see a single cent in overtime pay. [Cynical] Brilliant!



Id be shocked if that were the case. It will affect their day to day jobs if outside of normal work hours. People can only work so much. If they work during normal work hours they are paying more than market wages. MN has an unemployment rate around 3%. Sub 2% for degree holders. People have plenty of avenues to get out with that above arrangement.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:19 pm

Not to defend what SY did, I do believe that the low unemployment had something to do with this also. So many employers are hiring, that folks are applying for a better paying job. Global has built their business up on high unemployment. Folks would take anything to get paid. Look at what most starting pay rates are now. Target, Walmart is what $12.00 to start ?? Global was what $9 to 10??
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
Boof02671
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:35 pm

How did they get SIDA badges that fast?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:55 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
How did they get SIDA badges that fast?


Most SY HQ staff already have SIDA badges just in case they need to go to meetings at their hangar or inspect some other aspect of their operation.
 
ridgid727
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Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:47 pm

jetlanta wrote:
enilria wrote:
par13del wrote:
In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....

They outsourced because everybody else in their competitor space has. No doubt if they want to be a ULCC they almost had to in order to get costs where they want them to be. Having said that, AS/F9/NK/YX and others have done the exact same thing and it initially went exactly the same way. I guess it is a rite of passage. Bad for customers, bad for employees, but it's a stubbed toe everybody else has also endured.



I completely agree with you. Hell, the legacies, especially Delta, went through exactly the same thing in the 90's. The missing piece of all of the criticism above is that no one here sees the books. SY, as it was pre-Jude, was unsustainable. It HAS to change or die. And the only pathway is to become a ULCC. They've made some missteps and moved quicker than perhaps they were ready for. But the senior leadership is top-notch. They are good people trying to do the right thing to save and grow the company. It is safe to say that the moves are a cultural shock for a very small company. It is also safe to say that they didn't have the management depth required to execute all of this in such a short period of time. They've been on a management hiring spree in order to support the change because it is massive and requires significant resources to execute. Clearly, there is more to do. But Jude's team is excellent and well-respected in the industry. Give them time to work out the kinks.



I remember when DL did that in the 90's, and they had so many aircraft out with baggage cart holes pierced in the side, they started putting out signs not to hit airplanes. It ultimately didn't work, and eventually we saw Chapter 11 there.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14617
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:53 pm

jetlanta wrote:
enilria wrote:
par13del wrote:
In true A.Net fashion, this is a professional airline, they had info not available to us desk jockey's when they made their decision to outsource. Unfortunately, no one is interested is getting the original data and seeing how market conditions changed resulting in this outcome, I mean after all, these were professionals when they made the initial decision and no one is going to say professionals make bad decisions such as starting routes and ending them 6 months later, so.....

They outsourced because everybody else in their competitor space has. No doubt if they want to be a ULCC they almost had to in order to get costs where they want them to be. Having said that, AS/F9/NK/YX and others have done the exact same thing and it initially went exactly the same way. I guess it is a rite of passage. Bad for customers, bad for employees, but it's a stubbed toe everybody else has also endured.



I completely agree with you. Hell, the legacies, especially Delta, went through exactly the same thing in the 90's. The missing piece of all of the criticism above is that no one here sees the books. SY, as it was pre-Jude, was unsustainable. It HAS to change or die. And the only pathway is to become a ULCC. They've made some missteps and moved quicker than perhaps they were ready for. But the senior leadership is top-notch. They are good people trying to do the right thing to save and grow the company. It is safe to say that the moves are a cultural shock for a very small company. It is also safe to say that they didn't have the management depth required to execute all of this in such a short period of time. They've been on a management hiring spree in order to support the change because it is massive and requires significant resources to execute. Clearly, there is more to do. But Jude's team is excellent and well-respected in the industry. Give them time to work out the kinks.


No disagreement about change or die. But this approach is fundamentally flawed. The approach should be “pay as little as possible to get the job done.” Management did not ensure that its chosen contractor could get the job done. That’s on them.
Last edited by Cubsrule on Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:58 pm

This is what happens when you have Wall Street running a Mom & Pop airline. IMO it ran better when Petter was running things.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 688
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:00 pm

sunking737 wrote:
Not to defend what SY did, I do believe that the low unemployment had something to do with this also. So many employers are hiring, that folks are applying for a better paying job. Global has built their business up on high unemployment. Folks would take anything to get paid. Look at what most starting pay rates are now. Target, Walmart is what $12.00 to start ?? Global was what $9 to 10??


Yeah I dont see how a ground handling operation like Global can compete at MSP at the moment. The Twin Cities unemployment rate is the lowest in the country for a metro over 1 million. It's getting close to 2% at this point. Ground handling companies can't staff paying less than $15 (and realistically they probably have to pay more) to even have a chance at fully staffing.

SY's "hub" operations are still relatively small so its totally feasible to contract out ground handling. But that contractor has to pay reasonable wages that can attract and maintain employees given the current economic conditions. In my mind, the fault was hiring Global, not the idea of contracting out ground handling. But in the absence of a contractor that can reliably manage ground ops, SY is probably better off just hiring directly.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:23 pm

max999 wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
In true corporate idiocy. They fired ground personnel to save money. But then used corporate salaried people to do the job the contractors were unable to do. Thus raising their labor costs.


I think Sun Country is getting free labor from the corporate salaried people. They just need to tell the "volunteers" they are still 100% responsible for their normal day to day jobs. Those "volunteers" do 8 hours scrubbing airplane toilets starting at 430 am then go back to the office and do another 8 hours finishing their normal job. Since they are salaried, the "volunteers" aren't going to see a single cent in overtime pay. [Cynical] Brilliant!

That’s not free labor. They’re paid a salary, and sometimes that’s what happens when you are salary.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
stlgph
Posts: 11228
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:57 pm

In light of the report of the entire plane which went for Vegas without any luggage on board, can't help but wonder how many other bags went missing or misplaced and rallied up a nice total in the amount of refunds or costs involved to return the bags.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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sunking737
Posts: 1647
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:33 pm

Re: Sun Country Switch to Contractor at MSP Becomes Disaster

Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:56 pm

More then will ever be made public, that's for sure.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP

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