beeweel15
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Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:36 pm

I don't know if this was discussed before.

With Airbus taking over the CS series aircraft and Boeing teaming up with Embraer, The Chinese and Russian programs is there room for Lockheed to reenter the civil aviation market. The Chinese and Russian programs will be more local and might not penetrate the main aviation markets with their offerings Lockheed I believe can reenter the market maybe partnering with Mitsubishi MRJ program and grow from there what are the possibilities. I miss those L1011 days
 
M564038
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:39 pm

Yes. They should start making the Electra and the Tristar again. After all they still make the C130 from before either of them.

OR, they could take the lessons of optimum efficiency and teamwork learned from the F35 and spend 25 years developing an airliner, that after an additional 10 years will be able to be deployed in to actual service carrying passengers. That will show Airbus and Boeing how it is done!
 
ScottB
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:40 pm

Nope.
 
toxtethogrady
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:54 pm

With what?
 
Bricktop
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:55 pm

No. Make that HELL NO!!
 
Antarius
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:57 pm

toxtethogrady wrote:
With what?


Obviously a Constellation that has high bypass GTF engines fitted on it.
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toxtethogrady
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:04 pm

Whew! For a minute, I thought you would suggest they were going to retool the C-5 to compete with the A380... :bigmouth:
 
Flyglobal
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:14 pm

I would like to see. A 'Market?) for me is only in very Special airplanes.
Examples:
1) E.G. a successor of the AN225/ 124 for moving heavy and large goods. They could be a Team up and ask to use developped components for some Systems, E.G avionics and ther Systems from 'mass production' airframers like B777 or A350.
2) Special Versions of the A380 (1 Decker)- keeping the wing but use a modified/ restructured fuselage for Special missions.
3) modified Versions of airliners (e.g. a Special fire fighting A220.
4) Engage in autonomuous flying.

Just some ideas. For mass production I do not see a real Chance.


Flyglobal
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:27 pm

As someone who works for a competitor to Lockheed, I really hope they make that mistake!
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Bald1983
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:37 pm

beeweel15 wrote:
I don't know if this was discussed before.

With Airbus taking over the CS series aircraft and Boeing teaming up with Embraer, The Chinese and Russian programs is there room for Lockheed to reenter the civil aviation market. The Chinese and Russian programs will be more local and might not penetrate the main aviation markets with their offerings Lockheed I believe can reenter the market maybe partnering with Mitsubishi MRJ program and grow from there what are the possibilities. I miss those L1011 days


My uninformed take: No. Lockheed dropped out of civil aviation when the jets arrived, except for the L-1011. I do not believe it did particularly well. Boeing and Airbus have things wrapped up and Lockheed would have to establish all new systems, factories etc. Both Airbus and Boeing would have their lunch unless they create a gap in the market. AS far as China and Russia: never say never but doubtful they will accomplish much besides domestic consumption, government ordered.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:39 pm

Lockheed Martin is working on the NASA-funded QueSST project, which could become a foot back in the commercial product arena. They will need "disruptor" technology, some kind of unique product, to do have any chance of success.
 
nikeherc
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:46 pm

I don't see Lockheed as an OEM. There may be a good future as a subcontractor/vendor. There is much cross-company support in the aviation industry, both civil and military. For instance Spirit sells to both Boeing and Airbus, Boeing and Northrup/Grumman are subcontractors on Lockheed military products and other examples could probably be cited. A major reason for the mergers that reduced the major military airframe contractors from six to three was a U.S. government desire to streamline the industry and reduce wasteful duplication. Thus, the Feds pretty much forced MDD and Boeing to merge when they denied MDD permission to work with China on a new large airliner. Similar considerations lead to Northrup/Grumman and LockMart.

I think that the days of multiple manufacturers of large commercial airliners in any country are over.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
Dreamflight767
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:51 pm

Nope. They are too busy "winning" government contracts to over charge the American tax payers for crap that doesn't work.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:00 pm

It's not clear Lockheed should stay in the aviation business, so civil is a step too far.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:35 pm

What has caused Lockheed to fall so far from the Kelley Johnson days of rapid innovation & actually bringing programs in under budget?
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:43 am

Every civil plane that they've done so far was awesome: Connie, Jetstar, Electra, TriStar. Well even the Starlifter was a good looking one.

So yes, I really hope that they come back as a civil OEM, probably with an innovative Middle-of-the-market airplane.

But I don't believe that this would work. Times have changed. It's not about beeing good looking and innovative anymore. It's only about how to implement supplier high-tech with highest cost efficiency.
Happy Landings
 
IADFCO
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:04 am

I doubt they still have the engineering talent to get back into the "current" civil aviation business. They would have to poach it from Boeing and Airbus. For something based on disruptive technologies, like masseybrown pointed out, where everybody would start more or less from scratch, there may be an opening. Whether or not they should, I prefer competition to oligopolies, so yes.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:14 am

Technically, they ARE in the civil aviation business...have we forgotten about the LM-100J?

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/pr ... -100j.html
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YIMBY
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:28 pm

nikeherc wrote:
I don't see Lockheed as an OEM. There may be a good future as a subcontractor/vendor. There is much cross-company support in the aviation industry, both civil and military. For instance Spirit sells to both Boeing and Airbus, Boeing and Northrup/Grumman are subcontractors on Lockheed military products and other examples could probably be cited. A major reason for the mergers that reduced the major military airframe contractors from six to three was a U.S. government desire to streamline the industry and reduce wasteful duplication. Thus, the Feds pretty much forced MDD and Boeing to merge when they denied MDD permission to work with China on a new large airliner. Similar considerations lead to Northrup/Grumman and LockMart.

I think that the days of multiple manufacturers of large commercial airliners in any country are over.


Very true. I see their only chances as partnering (up to A&M) with the rest of Bombardier or subcontractor/vendor for the Chinese or Russian which may need a Western camouflage to sell anywhere. Even those are not very likely.

Only if Boeing goes bankrupt could they start developing something of their own. That is even less likely.
 
twaconnie
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:49 pm

Well if they ever build another airliner it would have to be named the twin star.
 
ckfred
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:49 pm

Airline pilots I know lament that the wrong manufacturer got out of the commercial business, when Lockheed stopped production of the L-1011. They felt that the Tri-Star was vastly superior to the DC-10, and in a number of ways superior to the 747.

That said, a manufacturer with Lockheed's history and reputation would still need to bring one aircraft type to market and then start working on a second type to fill another segment. That is a lot of manpower, time, and money being allocated to programs that might not generate profits for a number of years. I doubt the shareholders of Lockheed Martin would stand for that.

Whereas airlines were shifting towards either Airbus or Boeing for all of their aircraft needs, say for aircraft of 140 seats and larger, now they are splitting between the two manufacturers. But, I don't think airlines like the U.S. legacies, the major European carriers, and the major Asian carriers want to deal with three manufacturers.

At one point, AA had aircraft from four different manufacturers, Airbus, Boeing, Fokker, and McDonnel Douglas. It went down to three when Boeing and McD merged, and it went down to two when the F100s were retired. I highly doubt that they would consider a potential Lockheed aircraft type, unless Lockheed offered a deal similar to the deal AA got on the first batch of MD-80s. I don't see an aircraft manufacturer ever doing a deal like that.
 
Noshow
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:54 pm

I think with blended wing bodies made of CFRP coming up there is a new chance for advanced defence companies to move back into commercial applications again. Lockheed would certainly fit into it. Like with something sized between 787 and 777X. Maybe just single pilot but supported from the ground or similar. It would need to be pretty high tech, something that start ups cannot do for a while. Let's say they could do the same mission with 30 percent less fuel. The big two are not innovative enough anymore they focus to much on production output and commonality. Airlines would like more competition for sure.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:35 pm

ckfred wrote:
Airline pilots I know lament that the wrong manufacturer got out of the commercial business, when Lockheed stopped production of the L-1011. They felt that the Tri-Star was vastly superior to the DC-10, and in a number of ways superior to the 747.

That said, a manufacturer with Lockheed's history and reputation would still need to bring one aircraft type to market and then start working on a second type to fill another segment. That is a lot of manpower, time, and money being allocated to programs that might not generate profits for a number of years. I doubt the shareholders of Lockheed Martin would stand for that.

Whereas airlines were shifting towards either Airbus or Boeing for all of their aircraft needs, say for aircraft of 140 seats and larger, now they are splitting between the two manufacturers. But, I don't think airlines like the U.S. legacies, the major European carriers, and the major Asian carriers want to deal with three manufacturers.

At one point, AA had aircraft from four different manufacturers, Airbus, Boeing, Fokker, and McDonnel Douglas. It went down to three when Boeing and McD merged, and it went down to two when the F100s were retired. I highly doubt that they would consider a potential Lockheed aircraft type, unless Lockheed offered a deal similar to the deal AA got on the first batch of MD-80s. I don't see an aircraft manufacturer ever doing a deal like that.


All of this plus the fact they are doing well with the military contracts, and the extravagant costs of starting a new aircraft production program from scratch and you pretty much know the answer,
 
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PPVLC
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:07 pm

I must say the Electras were great and they even outlived the Tristars.
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nikeherc
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:13 pm

Remember that the thing that killed the L-1011 was Rolls Royce being disastrously late on the RB.211 engine. It was a big deal that Douglas actually taxied the DC-10 out at roll out rather than towing it out with a tug. Lockheed towed out the first L-1011 sometime later. I recall reading a quote from a Lockheed executive that if Douglas overflew the L-1011 rollout with the DC-10, that Lockheed might try to shoot it down. The Electra was Lockheed's DC-7, hanging on to the prop liner one generation too long. The L-1011 had to be shrunk in order to gain trans Atlantic range. The DC-10 was able to be grown into the intercontinental range. Lockheed didn't exactly get the C-5 right at first either.
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FlyThiz
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:35 pm

I would love to see an NEO version of the L-1011 with a modern flight deck and all the new carbon fiber tech to boot. Oh God please!!!!
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:42 pm

Considering how well current programs like the F-35 and Orion spacecraft are going, no. Commercial operators won’t have the patience or wallets for the kind of bloat and heel-dragging that’s plagued LM of late.
 
Andre3K
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:42 pm

I can't really say anything specific for obvious reasons but keep an eye out for the SSBJ. And no I can't give time frames or any details because I like my job.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:44 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
Times have changed. It's not about beeing good looking and innovative anymore. It's only about how to implement supplier high-tech with highest cost efficiency.

Indeed. The C Series saga has shown us that the industry does not treat new entrants kindly. In fact it's the opposite. The suppliers view the new entrant as low volume and high risk, and set their prices accordingly. The competitors do whatever they can to undermine the new entrant before it can gain critical mass. In the end the only way out for CS and its investors was to give half the program away for $1.

ckfred wrote:
Airline pilots I know lament that the wrong manufacturer got out of the commercial business, when Lockheed stopped production of the L-1011. They felt that the Tri-Star was vastly superior to the DC-10, and in a number of ways superior to the 747.

The best product doesn't necessarily win. Intel + M$ won the PC Wars. Go figure.
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neutrino
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:23 am

twaconnie wrote:
Well if they ever build another airliner it would have to be named the twin star.

Better still that they build it in Texas and call it LoneStar.
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JannEejit
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:36 am

twaconnie wrote:
Well if they ever build another airliner it would have to be named the twin star.


There was of course the BiStar proposal once upon a time... :o
 
afgeneral
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:46 am

Yes, they should do a partnership with Airbus and sell re-branded Toulouse made A350s as "Lockheed Martin 350", might even sell some to the government. They could also put a large chrome Lockheed badge on an A380 and it might be the next AF1.
 
Breathe
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:43 pm

toxtethogrady wrote:
Whew! For a minute, I thought you would suggest they were going to retool the C-5 to compete with the A380... :bigmouth:

I wish they'd bring back a retooled TF39 engine. It just made it the best sounding plane in the skies.
 
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Seabear
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:20 pm

Super Constellation NEO?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:30 pm

It wasn’t the engine, it was the cowl doors and lack of acoustic cowling that made the noise.


GF
 
Breathe
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:44 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It wasn’t the engine, it was the cowl doors and lack of acoustic cowling that made the noise.


GF

That, I did not know. :smile:
 
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N328KF
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:05 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Technically, they ARE in the civil aviation business...have we forgotten about the LM-100J?

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/pr ... -100j.html


Lockheed also sells civilian rotorcraft, with the Sikorsky acquisition.
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fightforlove
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:21 pm

I've always been curious, why did Lockheed not build a passenger jet until the Tristar? Why didn't they build something to content with the 707/DC-8, 727, or DC-9/BAC111/Caravelle?
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:56 pm

It's funny how people are saying Lockheed will f*ck it up, since their last offering nearly 50 years ago only sold 250 frames, which wasn't actually that bad for a 70s widebody. (DC-10 sold 386).

I'd love it if Lockheed Martin decided to join the commercial segment again.

*Not counting the LM-100J.
 
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Polot
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:06 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
It's funny how people are saying Lockheed will f*ck it up, since their last offering nearly 50 years ago only sold 250 frames, which wasn't actually that bad for a 70s widebody. (DC-10 sold 386).

In other words the DC-10 sold over 50% better...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:10 pm

It’s not funny, Lockheed screwing up civil designs is basic aviation history applied to the future.

GF
 
ckfred
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:53 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
Considering how well current programs like the F-35 and Orion spacecraft are going, no. Commercial operators won’t have the patience or wallets for the kind of bloat and heel-dragging that’s plagued LM of late.


A little off topic, but the problem with the F-35 is that the Defense Department gets the dumb idea of trying to build one fighter aircraft that can be deployed to every service branch. The F-4 was deployed as both an Air Force and Navy fighter, with mixed success.

Building a basic fighter that could be then turned into a Navy fighter (i.e., deal with being launched and retrieved on an aircraft carrier repeatedly) and a Marine Corps fighter (i.e., a VTOL aircraft) is asking the manufacturer to do the impossible, in my opinion.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:57 pm

They are back in civil aviation with the LM-100J....
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:13 pm

Only as a subcontractor or as a partner with another company that has current experience as a civilian aircraft manufacturer.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into Civil Aviation

Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:16 pm

IWMBH wrote:
They are back in civil aviation with the LM-100J....


That's just a civilianized version of a C-130J. It's a pretty limited market.

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