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a340crew
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Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:34 am

Norwegian Air is applying for another AOC this time in Sweden.

Norwegians current AOC's are:
Norwegian Air Argentina - NAA
Norwegian Air International - NAI
Norwegian Air Norway - NAN
Norwegian Air Shuttle - NAS
Norwegian Air UK - NUK

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/norwegian ... edish-aoc/
 
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zkojq
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:38 am

a340crew wrote:
Norwegian Air Norway - NAN
Norwegian Air Shuttle - NAS


I've never understood the difference between these two, nor even seen a Norwegian Air Norway flight. Can anyone explain?
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:07 am

zkojq wrote:
I've never understood the difference between these two, nor even seen a Norwegian Air Norway flight. Can anyone explain?


Must be something to do with wages or taxes or something like that. Staff on one airline, aircraft on the other. Internal outsourcing.

On-topic, it seems weird to me as well. Recently they reduced their activities in Sweden due to the upcoming Swedish APD. Now it seems they're not bothered by it. As far as I know Sweden also doesn't have any special bilaterals that they might need it for. It's part of the EU and as such they can use their Irish AOC there.

Norwegian is a weird airline, constantly putting themselves at risk. Constantly exposing their weak spots. So far they were able to get away with it because there was no serious competition, no undercutting them. However it seems so easy to be cheaper than Norwegian by just not making the mistakes they're making, by having things better organized, by having a better schedule, by thinking more logical. It's only a matter of time before someone is going to do that and I doubt if Norwegian is going to survive that. Norwegian is cheap, but not the very cheapest. Wait until someone steps up to be the very cheapest in long haul.
 
Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:34 pm

They are also starting a longhaul airbase from CPH With 80 New pilot positions.
 
tofen
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Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:25 am

Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:52 pm

Didn't they already have a Swedish AOC from when they bought Fly Nordic?
Or did they let that AOC expire?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:35 pm

Why Swedish and not Danish though? Or even Austrian (for wage and tax purposes)?
 
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FlyThiz
Posts: 41
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:57 pm

Does it really matter what they do or apply for? They're not doing that hot. They expanded way to fast and may suffer the consequences of that.
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jetblueguy22
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:28 pm

The AOC situation with Norwegian is really amazing to me. Whenever a new airline starts you always hear how complex and expensive it is to establish a new one. How some airlines will buy one when another goes bankrupt to save money. But then these guys go out and set up certificates in soon to be 7 countries.

It just sounds counterproductive and complicated to me. But then again, I'm not a bean counter. So who knows.
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:37 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Why Swedish and not Danish though? Or even Austrian (for wage and tax purposes)?


For those inquiring, from my understanding, the main reason for the Swedish AOC is for the "trans - Siberian corridor" rights. They cannot get these via their current certificates, and Asia has always been a long term plan.

A multidecade old law basically states that in the Norwegian/Russian air traffic right agreement, only one Norwegian carrier would have access to Russia airspace and overfly rights, and one Russian one would gain access to Norwegian’s. This made sense during the CCCP with Aeroflot being the national airline and SAS being the only frontrunner for the Scandinavian countries.

Obviously, times have changed, but the laws haven't. Until recently, the Norwegian government held a large state in SAS, and wanting it to be a profitable investment, they had not interest in changing the law that might hurt SAS. While it made good business sense on their end, it did not make sense for Norwegian Airlines who pushed unsuccessfully to change that law.

It's my understanding that Norwegian is now working on an interoperability program with their crewmembers. That will allow any crew to operate any certificate aircraft, IE, crew from NUK could operate on NAS operated flights, and vice versa. When completed it would give them incredible flexibility with their cabin and flight deck crew.


Mortyman wrote:
They are also starting a longhaul airbase from CPH With 80 New pilot positions.


Correct.

This will improve performance, and crew quality of life. A large portion of pilots live there and constantly commuted to other bases. This will make trip planning easier as well as CPH get’s more long haul flights to other destinations.

FlyThiz wrote:
Does it really matter what they do or apply for? They're not doing that hot. They expanded way to fast and may suffer the consequences of that.


I think it does matter what they do or apply for. They have been a rebel in the industry totally changing how the industry can operate and are leading the low cost long haul market.

Trends and business models they started are now being adopted by others.

As for expanding fast, yes they did. If the 787 engine issues hadn’t come into play it would have likely worked out much better. However, under the new terms with Boeing and RR, Norwegian’s responsibility (or lack there of) with wet leasing to cover scheduled operations changes, and that will change their balance sheet drastically. Once a the next agreement is finalized, there should be another announcement in the coming months that will give them a long term game plan until the 787 engine manufacturing can come up to speed to match the production level that Boeing is producing frames.

I should also point out that their most recent quarter was one of the most turbulent and yet also profitable. So, they are making strides even in the face of all the adversity they have been facing. While Bjorn Kos has siad, every man has his price, they don’t seem to be looking for a buyout. They certainly aren’t planning on throwing in the towel any time soon.

All that being said, the next 9 months at Norwegian will be quite interesting.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
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c933103
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:32 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Why Swedish and not Danish though? Or even Austrian (for wage and tax purposes)?


For those inquiring, from my understanding, the main reason for the Swedish AOC is for the "trans - Siberian corridor" rights. They cannot get these via their current certificates, and Asia has always been a long term plan.

A multidecade old law basically states that in the Norwegian/Russian air traffic right agreement, only one Norwegian carrier would have access to Russia airspace and overfly rights, and one Russian one would gain access to Norwegian’s. This made sense during the CCCP with Aeroflot being the national airline and SAS being the only frontrunner for the Scandinavian countries.

Obviously, times have changed, but the laws haven't. Until recently, the Norwegian government held a large state in SAS, and wanting it to be a profitable investment, they had not interest in changing the law that might hurt SAS. While it made good business sense on their end, it did not make sense for Norwegian Airlines who pushed unsuccessfully to change that law.

It's my understanding that Norwegian is now working on an interoperability program with their crewmembers. That will allow any crew to operate any certificate aircraft, IE, crew from NUK could operate on NAS operated flights, and vice versa. When completed it would give them incredible flexibility with their cabin and flight deck crew.


Mortyman wrote:
They are also starting a longhaul airbase from CPH With 80 New pilot positions.


Correct.

This will improve performance, and crew quality of life. A large portion of pilots live there and constantly commuted to other bases. This will make trip planning easier as well as CPH get’s more long haul flights to other destinations.

FlyThiz wrote:
Does it really matter what they do or apply for? They're not doing that hot. They expanded way to fast and may suffer the consequences of that.


I think it does matter what they do or apply for. They have been a rebel in the industry totally changing how the industry can operate and are leading the low cost long haul market.

Trends and business models they started are now being adopted by others.

As for expanding fast, yes they did. If the 787 engine issues hadn’t come into play it would have likely worked out much better. However, under the new terms with Boeing and RR, Norwegian’s responsibility (or lack there of) with wet leasing to cover scheduled operations changes, and that will change their balance sheet drastically. Once a the next agreement is finalized, there should be another announcement in the coming months that will give them a long term game plan until the 787 engine manufacturing can come up to speed to match the production level that Boeing is producing frames.

I should also point out that their most recent quarter was one of the most turbulent and yet also profitable. So, they are making strides even in the face of all the adversity they have been facing. While Bjorn Kos has siad, every man has his price, they don’t seem to be looking for a buyout. They certainly aren’t planning on throwing in the towel any time soon.

All that being said, the next 9 months at Norwegian will be quite interesting.

1. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-11-167_en.htm But it seems like Russia look at ownership of an airlines instead of AOC
2. Wasn't SAS being treated as the carrier for all Nordic country by Russia for the overflight right?
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bluefltspecial
Posts: 573
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:13 pm

c933103 wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Why Swedish and not Danish though? Or even Austrian (for wage and tax purposes)?


For those inquiring, from my understanding, the main reason for the Swedish AOC is for the "trans - Siberian corridor" rights. They cannot get these via their current certificates, and Asia has always been a long term plan.

A multidecade old law basically states that in the Norwegian/Russian air traffic right agreement, only one Norwegian carrier would have access to Russia airspace and overfly rights, and one Russian one would gain access to Norwegian’s. This made sense during the CCCP with Aeroflot being the national airline and SAS being the only frontrunner for the Scandinavian countries.

Obviously, times have changed, but the laws haven't. Until recently, the Norwegian government held a large state in SAS, and wanting it to be a profitable investment, they had not interest in changing the law that might hurt SAS. While it made good business sense on their end, it did not make sense for Norwegian Airlines who pushed unsuccessfully to change that law.

It's my understanding that Norwegian is now working on an interoperability program with their crewmembers. That will allow any crew to operate any certificate aircraft, IE, crew from NUK could operate on NAS operated flights, and vice versa. When completed it would give them incredible flexibility with their cabin and flight deck crew.


Mortyman wrote:
They are also starting a longhaul airbase from CPH With 80 New pilot positions.


Correct.

This will improve performance, and crew quality of life. A large portion of pilots live there and constantly commuted to other bases. This will make trip planning easier as well as CPH get’s more long haul flights to other destinations.

FlyThiz wrote:
Does it really matter what they do or apply for? They're not doing that hot. They expanded way to fast and may suffer the consequences of that.


I think it does matter what they do or apply for. They have been a rebel in the industry totally changing how the industry can operate and are leading the low cost long haul market.

Trends and business models they started are now being adopted by others.

As for expanding fast, yes they did. If the 787 engine issues hadn’t come into play it would have likely worked out much better. However, under the new terms with Boeing and RR, Norwegian’s responsibility (or lack there of) with wet leasing to cover scheduled operations changes, and that will change their balance sheet drastically. Once a the next agreement is finalized, there should be another announcement in the coming months that will give them a long term game plan until the 787 engine manufacturing can come up to speed to match the production level that Boeing is producing frames.

I should also point out that their most recent quarter was one of the most turbulent and yet also profitable. So, they are making strides even in the face of all the adversity they have been facing. While Bjorn Kos has siad, every man has his price, they don’t seem to be looking for a buyout. They certainly aren’t planning on throwing in the towel any time soon.

All that being said, the next 9 months at Norwegian will be quite interesting.

1. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-11-167_en.htm But it seems like Russia look at ownership of an airlines instead of AOC
2. Wasn't SAS being treated as the carrier for all Nordic country by Russia for the overflight right?


Thanks for linking this, good information here. Really interesting stuff

"...Siberian overflights

In addition to the problem of EU designation (freedom of establishment), EU airlines are obliged to pay Siberian overflight charges for routes to many Asian destinations. This may be in breach of international law1 and incompatible with EU competition law. The Siberian overflights issue was negotiated between the European Commission and the Russian government in 2006. In November 2006, an agreement to phase out Siberian overflight duties was signed by the Commission, the Council Presidency and the Russian Transport Minister Igor Levitin. Russia has, however, never implemented it as it has linked its implementation with the need to first be allowed to become a fully fledged WTO partner. Since then, Member States efforts to address the issue with Russia bilaterally have failed.

With respect to Siberian overflight charges, EU carriers are de facto forced into agreements with their competitor, Aeroflot. In 2008 alone, EU carriers paid around USD 420 million – most of it directly to Aeroflot.

EU designation

The absence of an "EU designation" creates serious practical problems. For example, after the takeover of Austrian Airlines by Lufthansa, Russia started to argue that flights operated by Austrian Airlines to Russia would no longer be covered by the ASA between Austria and Russia because the airline was no longer owned by Austrian interests. To the extent that "traffic rights" for flying over Russian territory are so far only granted for short time periods, this creates uncertainty as to whether Austrian Airlines – not being recognised as an "EU carrier" – might continue to have the right to fly over Russian territory. And there are other similar cases (see below)..."


If memory serves, SAS main head of operations was in Denmark and partly in Sweden.

As a reminder to anyone reading through this that is not already aware, Norway is NOT part of the EU (unless something has changed recently) but is an operator and member of the European Economic Area, operates with the pan-Euro-Mediterranean cumulation and the PEM Convention (in layman's terms a network for free trade agreements and bilateral protocols within that area), along with this Norway is a member of the Schengen travel area as well, which a number of people confuse for EU for some reason.
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skipness1E
Posts: 4880
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:28 pm

a340crew wrote:
Norwegian Air is applying for another AOC this time in Sweden.

Norwegians current AOC's are:
Norwegian Air Argentina - NAA
Norwegian Air International - NAI
Norwegian Air Norway - NAN
Norwegian Air Shuttle - NAS
Norwegian Air UK - NUK

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/norwegian ... edish-aoc/


Shouldn’t NAX, NBK and NRS be in there? There are quite enough TLAs in the world already.
 
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RobK
Posts: 3758
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:43 pm

Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:37 pm

skipness1E wrote:
a340crew wrote:
Norwegian Air is applying for another AOC this time in Sweden.

Norwegians current AOC's are:
Norwegian Air Argentina - NAA
Norwegian Air International - NAI
Norwegian Air Norway - NAN
Norwegian Air Shuttle - NAS
Norwegian Air UK - NUK

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/norwegian ... edish-aoc/


Shouldn’t NAX, NBK and NRS be in there? There are quite enough TLAs in the world already.


He's used basic abbreviations instead of their official codes. NAA is the official code of NOAA (Hurricane hunter people) in the US, for example. The correct codes should be :

Norwegians current AOC's are:
Norwegian Air Argentina - ?
Norwegian Air International - IBK
Norwegian Air Norway - NAN
Norwegian Air Shuttle - NAX
Norwegian Air UK - NRS
+
Norwegian Long Haul - NLH
 
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PHBVF
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:45 pm

Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:34 pm

RobK wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
a340crew wrote:
Norwegian Air is applying for another AOC this time in Sweden.

Norwegians current AOC's are:
Norwegian Air Argentina - NAA
Norwegian Air International - NAI
Norwegian Air Norway - NAN
Norwegian Air Shuttle - NAS
Norwegian Air UK - NUK

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/norwegian ... edish-aoc/


Shouldn’t NAX, NBK and NRS be in there? There are quite enough TLAs in the world already.


He's used basic abbreviations instead of their official codes. NAA is the official code of NOAA (Hurricane hunter people) in the US, for example. The correct codes should be :

Norwegians current AOC's are:
Norwegian Air Argentina - ?
Norwegian Air International - IBK
Norwegian Air Norway - NAN
Norwegian Air Shuttle - NAX
Norwegian Air UK - NRS
+
Norwegian Long Haul - NLH


A340crew posted the codes as they are used internally. The codes you're stating are however official codes (used as callsign)
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jackieman27
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:34 pm

Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:44 pm

Race to the bottom!!
 
787Driver
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:55 pm

jackieman27 wrote:
Race to the bottom!!

Yeah and you can thank yourself and most other passengers for only caring about ticket price which is causing this race to the bottom.
 
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mooseofspruce
Posts: 127
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Re: Norwegian Air applies for Swedish AOC

Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:25 pm

tofen wrote:
Didn't they already have a Swedish AOC from when they bought Fly Nordic?
Or did they let that AOC expire?

This was my first question when I saw the title of this thread, but yes they did have a Swedish AOC up until the end of the last decade but merged everything into their current one. I wondered why they suddenly wanted a Swedish AOC again but then scrolled down and found bluefltspecial's reply to make a lot of sense as to why, if correct.
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