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Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:29 pm
by yonikasz
I see UA all the time losing battles to AA at ORD. You would think UA could not be so weak. For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights. Why is UA letting AA beat them at their largest hub?

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:35 pm
by LHUSA
I would consider AA's exit of ORD-PEK to be a much bigger 'deal' than UA exiting a new express market like CMI.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:36 pm
by Runway28L
I thought A.net Truth was that AA was the one "retreating" from UA at ORD. :spin:

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:39 pm
by NYPECO
UA is still going to be much larger than AA at ORD.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:43 pm
by airbazar
This was published just a year ago. I don't think "retreating" is a good characterization.
http://www.anna.aero/2017/07/13/america ... -10-years/

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:50 pm
by TVNWZ
Retreating or growing is usually driven by ones personal desires/experiences.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:03 pm
by jetskipper
I remember when PanAm gave up Chicago-Champaign that was truly the beginning of the end.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:12 pm
by Cubsrule
yonikasz wrote:
I see UA all the time losing battles to AA at ORD. You would think UA could not be so weak. For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights. Why is UA letting AA beat them at their largest hub?


Isn’t CMI still a MQ maintenance base? That makes it a bit of a special case.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:30 pm
by AWACSooner
jetskipper wrote:
I remember when PanAm gave up Chicago-Champaign that was truly the beginning of the end.

WN pulled out of DAY and JAN in the past few years...I'll give em 5 before they file Chapter 7 ;)

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:32 pm
by tpaewr
Cubsrule wrote:
yonikasz wrote:
I see UA all the time losing battles to AA at ORD. You would think UA could not be so weak. For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights. Why is UA letting AA beat them at their largest hub?


Isn’t CMI still a MQ maintenance base? That makes it a bit of a special case.



MX bases can cause some « unatural » levels of service. When still COEX (later ExpressJet) opened à base in TYS it went from having zero service by CO to multiple flights daily from all the mainland hubs!

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:35 pm
by SonomaFlyer
UA is building domestic capacity, not "retreating." They are adding used narrow bodies and new MAXs. Shutting down an express destination doesn't smell like retreating.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:52 am
by tphuang
It seems to me that UA is crushing AA in ORD and the gap might be getting wider.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:55 am
by LovePrunesAnet
United787 wrote:
Are you kidding? AA is usually losing out to UA at ORD, they can't seem to gain any traction. Of course, you can find some one offs that AA wins but for the most part UA is much more dominant at ORD.

This is not the OP, not sure why A-Net moved my post to #1.


So is this question about ua at ord? The first comment is a lot more specific than the title of this thread, kinda confusing

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:06 am
by Super80Fan
They seem to be expanding 50 seaters like they were under Smisek.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:28 am
by MIflyer12
Maybe the OP would like to look at FSDan's work on hub departures by type. He can put daily seats to it, check for year-over-year change, and see if he still wants to try his argument.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1396833

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:48 am
by LAXdude1023
UA is retreating at LAX. Other than that I don’t see them retreating anywhere.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:51 am
by grbauc
Sonomaflyer "UA is building domestic capacity, not "retreating." They are adding used narrow bodies and new MAXs. Shutting down an express destination doesn't smell like retreating."


tphuang "It seems to me that UA is crushing AA in ORD and the gap might be getting wider."



Might Want to read this Article with Real numbers. http://www.anna.aero/2017/07/13/america ... -10-years/

"American gaining ground better than United
During the past decade both American and United have lost market share at O’Hare. Back in 2007, American handled just over 36% of annual seats while United had nearly 48%. Last year the oneworld carrier had under 36%, a drop of 0.6%, while United’s was below 44%, a decline in market share of 3.8% when compared with 2007. So while both have lost ground to the airport’s other carriers, American has seen less of an impact than the Star Alliance member. "

Now AA doesn't need to run the International Routes it use to with its new hubs and AA has shifted domestic from International giving the appearance of being "crushed" and "Gap wider" but not really the case.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:24 am
by 727200
The old UA was market share focused and lived and died by it. Once the merger took place the words "market share" are not spoken by co, nor is there any attempt to incorporate it. Now, with Kirby leading the operational charge, the focus is coming back to gains and control of segment and corporate share.
It just shows the philosophical difference between the two carriers and obviously how one was clueless about running the other.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:58 am
by Austin787
yonikasz wrote:
I see UA all the time losing battles to AA at ORD. You would think UA could not be so weak. For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights. Why is UA letting AA beat them at their largest hub?


<Sarcasm on>
:roll: You're right. AA has a bigger market share in ORD compared to UA because passengers are so eager to fly AA's 737-MAX domestically, PTV-less planes on long haul, and shaking long haul J seats. No wonder AA is taking UA to the cleaners on routes like ORD-YVR, ORD-YYC, ORD-MEX, ORD-HNL, ORD-CDG, ORD-AMS, ORD-FRA, ORD-GRU, ORD-NRT, ORD-HKG, and ORD-PEK. :roll:
<Sarcasm off>

Oh wait a minute. The facts prove the opposite.

Re: Why is UA retreating at ORD compared to AA

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:06 am
by FA9295
United787 wrote:
This is not the OP, not sure why A-Net moved my post to #1.

(Not trying to get too off topic here) This is a known glitch in the website system. It has happened to me all the time. I think I saw a post by moderator somewhere at one point, saying that they are working on it, but that was quite awhile ago...

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:10 am
by FA9295
yonikasz wrote:
I see UA all the time losing battles to AA at ORD. You would think UA could not be so weak. For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights. Why is UA letting AA beat them at their largest hub?

This is hardly true at all. As someone else already mentioned here, AA dropping ORD-PEK is a much bigger deal that UA dropping ORD-CMI.

UA wins some battles. AA wins other battles. That's just the way it goes.

With that being said, though, UA's HQ is in Chicago, and their operation at ORD is already significantly larger than AA's. So most markets at ORD, UA is definitely winning over AA. However, there are a select few (such as ORD-CMI) that AA is winning over UA.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:26 am
by ctrabs0114
AWACSooner wrote:
jetskipper wrote:
I remember when PanAm gave up Chicago-Champaign that was truly the beginning of the end.

WN pulled out of DAY and JAN in the past few years...I'll give em 5 before they file Chapter 7 ;)


Don't forget about FNT.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:12 am
by Pi7472000
United is losing customers. Their service and employee treatment of paying passengers is awful. People are realizing other airlines are more customer friendly and as such United is losing passengers. I only flew United up until its merger and after that customer service is awful. They have cut back on many routes I flew with them and I am not surprised as people fly other airlines now where employees have more respect for passengers.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:46 am
by mattnrsa
Pi7472000 wrote:
United is losing passengers.

United’s strong operational performance (in spite of significant exposure to delay-prone airports), high growth rate, higher load-factor, and increased revenue paint a different picture.

If you haven’t flown them in as many years as you’re saying, maybe it’s time to try them again and see why they’re doing well.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:00 am
by STT757
Pi7472000 wrote:
United is losing customers. Their service and employee treatment of paying passengers is awful. People are realizing other airlines are more customer friendly and as such United is losing passengers. I only flew United up until its merger and after that customer service is awful. They have cut back on many routes I flew with them and I am not surprised as people fly other airlines now where employees have more respect for passengers.


UA flew more passengers last month then they ever have in their history, they're going in the right direction.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:09 am
by rwsea
Pi7472000 wrote:
United is losing customers. Their service and employee treatment of paying passengers is awful. People are realizing other airlines are more customer friendly and as such United is losing passengers. I only flew United up until its merger and after that customer service is awful. They have cut back on many routes I flew with them and I am not surprised as people fly other airlines now where employees have more respect for passengers.


United is no better or worse than DL/AA. The Dr. Dao incident clearly had an impact, but that's history now. The US3 are now an established oligarchy, having eliminated competitors through mergers and now reaping the rewards of a limited marketplace. All three have equally bad service, declining economy passenger experience, cuts to FF programs, and all the rest. This is purely a commodity business now. If you think the US consumer picks DL/AA over UA purely based on service, you're wrong. UA's recent earnings release shows that passengers are NOT booking away from UA, as you assert, but rather they are filling the planes and have strong and improving operational metrics.

In my recent experience as a UA 1K and now a DL Plat, I have to say that I preferred UA. Even based in SFO, I had better on time reliability and the FF program was 100x better. UA also had a much better website that was more intuitive and easy to use. I feel like DL certainly has a lot of marketing flash but the product is no better than UA.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:44 pm
by CHI787ORD
Pi7472000 wrote:
United is losing customers. Their service and employee treatment of paying passengers is awful. People are realizing other airlines are more customer friendly and as such United is losing passengers. I only flew United up until its merger and after that customer service is awful. They have cut back on many routes I flew with them and I am not surprised as people fly other airlines now where employees have more respect for passengers.


This statement is not based on quantitative facts at all. In fact, the facts tell the opposite story.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:05 pm
by gennadius
tpaewr wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
yonikasz wrote:
I see UA all the time losing battles to AA at ORD. You would think UA could not be so weak. For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights. Why is UA letting AA beat them at their largest hub?


Isn’t CMI still a MQ maintenance base? That makes it a bit of a special case.



MX bases can cause some « unatural » levels of service. When still COEX (later ExpressJet) opened à base in TYS it went from having zero service by CO to multiple flights daily from all the mainland hubs!


I don't believe that, in this case, having the maintenance base at CMI is causing any unnatural level of service. In fact, what UA's time in the market has shown is that demand has grown and that there is leakage that can be captured if more seats were available. Unfortunately for UA, they didn't capture it fast enough for their load factors to be where they wanted it to be at 3x daily, but the number of enplanements since they have started has been up over 22%, and that is without impacting AA loads. That data, and UA pulling out, has been cited as one of the probable reasons why AA apparently accelerated their introduction of CLT-CMI.

It still is surprising to me that UA didn't try to reduce frequency first, or allow their customer base to develop more, seeing as how they had chosen CMI on their own and they knew they would be trying to capture fliers that had (mostly) consistently leaked out.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:38 pm
by IPFreely
yonikasz wrote:
For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights.


I’m sure that one weekend a year of transporting broke college students who can’t drive from Chicago to the University of Illinois is a true gold mine for AA. I can’t believe there aren’t 10 airlines flying widebodies on this route.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:38 pm
by LotsaRunway
While I don't necessarily see UA retreating at ORD, they are definitely still on the retreat in some portions of the domestic market. UA is one of the largest airlines in the world and they have a very loyal following, but their focus seems to be on big market and international flying. They can't seem to lock down competitive smaller domestic markets, and I don't think they really care to try since there is plenty of money to chase where they are strong. But they have backed down out of some eastern cities where they don't compete well on the north-south and they really seem to prefer not clogging up their main hub at EWR with connecting traffic. IAD struggles as the alternative because the O&D is weaker than that for EWR and thus doesn't get the yields. They also still fly a lot of ERJ/CRJs up against 737s and A320s on 2+ hour flights. Passengers lose on comfort and reliability, thus UA loses to the competition.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:56 pm
by neomax
This is the most laughable post I've read today.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:59 pm
by SQ22
I have updated the title to avoid misunderstandings.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:04 pm
by ual777
LotsaRunway wrote:
While I don't necessarily see UA retreating at ORD, they are definitely still on the retreat in some portions of the domestic market. UA is one of the largest airlines in the world and they have a very loyal following, but their focus seems to be on big market and international flying. They can't seem to lock down competitive smaller domestic markets, and I don't think they really care to try since there is plenty of money to chase where they are strong. But they have backed down out of some eastern cities where they don't compete well on the north-south and they really seem to prefer not clogging up their main hub at EWR with connecting traffic. IAD struggles as the alternative because the O&D is weaker than that for EWR and thus doesn't get the yields. They also still fly a lot of ERJ/CRJs up against 737s and A320s on 2+ hour flights. Passengers lose on comfort and reliability, thus UA loses to the competition.


Im afraid your information is outdated.

UA is growing the most of the US3 and most of it is domestic.

There are too many airports for me to count that have seen an increase in mainline service over the past 18-24 months.

They have also said EWR will shift to a more O&D hub while IAD will grow into a connecting hub.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:05 pm
by DoctorVenkman
This thread is ridiculous. It would be like saying "Is UA retreating from EWR because they don't fly from there to ABE?"

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:11 pm
by LHUSA
Pi7472000 wrote:
United is losing customers. Their service and employee treatment of paying passengers is awful. People are realizing other airlines are more customer friendly and as such United is losing passengers. I only flew United up until its merger and after that customer service is awful. They have cut back on many routes I flew with them and I am not surprised as people fly other airlines now where employees have more respect for passengers.


You admit not having flown the airline for 7 years and yet you speak to their service levels and make dramatic statements about 'losing passengers.' You're clearly bitter (maybe justifiably so) but don't speak as if it's fact if you don't even know.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:17 pm
by toxtethogrady
If UA has retreated anywhere, it was Texas years ago. Why they ever thought a bus could compete with a jet in the Beaumont/Port Arthur market is beyond me...

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:19 pm
by LotsaRunway
ual777 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
While I don't necessarily see UA retreating at ORD, they are definitely still on the retreat in some portions of the domestic market. UA is one of the largest airlines in the world and they have a very loyal following, but their focus seems to be on big market and international flying. They can't seem to lock down competitive smaller domestic markets, and I don't think they really care to try since there is plenty of money to chase where they are strong. But they have backed down out of some eastern cities where they don't compete well on the north-south and they really seem to prefer not clogging up their main hub at EWR with connecting traffic. IAD struggles as the alternative because the O&D is weaker than that for EWR and thus doesn't get the yields. They also still fly a lot of ERJ/CRJs up against 737s and A320s on 2+ hour flights. Passengers lose on comfort and reliability, thus UA loses to the competition.


Im afraid your information is outdated.

UA is growing the most of the US3 and most of it is domestic.

There are too many airports for me to count that have seen an increase in mainline service over the past 18-24 months.

They have also said EWR will shift to a more O&D hub while IAD will grow into a connecting hub.

Outdated? OK, if you say so. I happen to fly a lot for business in the Northeast and my options for UA have become laughable compared to the competition. I never said that UA wasn't growing, or even not growing domestically. I did say they are apparently giving up competing in markets they are losing in in the east and chasing other, especially big markets. Did I say that EWR was being downsized? Absolutely not. UA is chasing the O&D in bigger markets and shifting the small stuff away from their number 1 eastern hub. It grows the numbers, absolutely, but at the expense of someplace. In the Northeast, talk to someone who needs to fly to PVD, MHT, or BDL, where WN is strong, how happy they are with UA. But on the other hand, UA grows at PWM and BTV. Even Boston doesn't favor UA for north south.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:48 pm
by Austin787
UA retreated in CLE over the years, but they are growing in other places like SFO.

Retreating in some places is not unique to UA. DL retreated from MEM. AA retreated from JFK. WN retreated from ATL.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:49 pm
by winginit
Let's finally bring some actual capacity figures into the debate shall we?

YE2018 vs. YE2017, Domestic Capacity measured by Seats:

AA: +2.7%
DL: +3.6%
UA: +7.0%

YE2018 vs. YE2015, Domestic Capacity measured by Seats:

AA: +3.1%
DL: +9.2%
UA: +14.7%

So is UA retreating in some markets? Maybe, but in aggregate on the domestic front they're growing more than their major competitors.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:11 am
by mm320cap
Pi7472000 wrote:
United is losing customers. Their service and employee treatment of paying passengers is awful. People are realizing other airlines are more customer friendly and as such United is losing passengers. I only flew United up until its merger and after that customer service is awful. They have cut back on many routes I flew with them and I am not surprised as people fly other airlines now where employees have more respect for passengers.


Uhhhhhh..... you should probably freshen up on the Q2 numbers regarding UAL’s growth

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 am
by NeBaNi
IPFreely wrote:
yonikasz wrote:
For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights.


I’m sure that one weekend a year of transporting broke college students who can’t drive from Chicago to the University of Illinois is a true gold mine for AA. I can’t believe there aren’t 10 airlines flying widebodies on this route.

Having lived in a college town, I'm not sure broke college students are the main focus of this route. A college has plenty of ties to higher-income people, including alums who come back for events/reunions/donation drives, academics and industry collaborators of research groups, sports professional/athlete recruiters, (ex-)politicians who give lectures, academics flying in for job interviews, attendees to workshops organized by the colleges, rich parents/students (Notre Dame in particular is famous for having rich South American students who fly in private jets), and so on. I don't think it's fair to say that broke students comprise most of the traffic. Most broke students would probably take the coach from ORD anyway.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:26 am
by ual777
LotsaRunway wrote:
ual777 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
While I don't necessarily see UA retreating at ORD, they are definitely still on the retreat in some portions of the domestic market. UA is one of the largest airlines in the world and they have a very loyal following, but their focus seems to be on big market and international flying. They can't seem to lock down competitive smaller domestic markets, and I don't think they really care to try since there is plenty of money to chase where they are strong. But they have backed down out of some eastern cities where they don't compete well on the north-south and they really seem to prefer not clogging up their main hub at EWR with connecting traffic. IAD struggles as the alternative because the O&D is weaker than that for EWR and thus doesn't get the yields. They also still fly a lot of ERJ/CRJs up against 737s and A320s on 2+ hour flights. Passengers lose on comfort and reliability, thus UA loses to the competition.


Im afraid your information is outdated.

UA is growing the most of the US3 and most of it is domestic.

There are too many airports for me to count that have seen an increase in mainline service over the past 18-24 months.

They have also said EWR will shift to a more O&D hub while IAD will grow into a connecting hub.

Outdated? OK, if you say so. I happen to fly a lot for business in the Northeast and my options for UA have become laughable compared to the competition. I never said that UA wasn't growing, or even not growing domestically. I did say they are apparently giving up competing in markets they are losing in in the east and chasing other, especially big markets. Did I say that EWR was being downsized? Absolutely not. UA is chasing the O&D in bigger markets and shifting the small stuff away from their number 1 eastern hub. It grows the numbers, absolutely, but at the expense of someplace. In the Northeast, talk to someone who needs to fly to PVD, MHT, or BDL, where WN is strong, how happy they are with UA. But on the other hand, UA grows at PWM and BTV. Even Boston doesn't favor UA for north south.


Ah makes sense.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:13 pm
by Fex180
ual777 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
ual777 wrote:

Im afraid your information is outdated.

UA is growing the most of the US3 and most of it is domestic.

There are too many airports for me to count that have seen an increase in mainline service over the past 18-24 months.

They have also said EWR will shift to a more O&D hub while IAD will grow into a connecting hub.

Outdated? OK, if you say so. I happen to fly a lot for business in the Northeast and my options for UA have become laughable compared to the competition. I never said that UA wasn't growing, or even not growing domestically. I did say they are apparently giving up competing in markets they are losing in in the east and chasing other, especially big markets. Did I say that EWR was being downsized? Absolutely not. UA is chasing the O&D in bigger markets and shifting the small stuff away from their number 1 eastern hub. It grows the numbers, absolutely, but at the expense of someplace. In the Northeast, talk to someone who needs to fly to PVD, MHT, or BDL, where WN is strong, how happy they are with UA. But on the other hand, UA grows at PWM and BTV. Even Boston doesn't favor UA for north south.


Ah makes sense.


I wouldn't exactly call UA's activity at BTV an PWM "growth" They add a few seasonal mainline flights but when November comes around it's right back to mostly ERJs. They haven't added any actual new routes from those markets in years.

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:25 pm
by jetero
Fex180 wrote:
ual777 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
Outdated? OK, if you say so. I happen to fly a lot for business in the Northeast and my options for UA have become laughable compared to the competition. I never said that UA wasn't growing, or even not growing domestically. I did say they are apparently giving up competing in markets they are losing in in the east and chasing other, especially big markets. Did I say that EWR was being downsized? Absolutely not. UA is chasing the O&D in bigger markets and shifting the small stuff away from their number 1 eastern hub. It grows the numbers, absolutely, but at the expense of someplace. In the Northeast, talk to someone who needs to fly to PVD, MHT, or BDL, where WN is strong, how happy they are with UA. But on the other hand, UA grows at PWM and BTV. Even Boston doesn't favor UA for north south.


Ah makes sense.


I wouldn't exactly call UA's activity at BTV an PWM "growth" They add a few seasonal mainline flights but when November comes around it's right back to mostly ERJs. They haven't added any actual new routes from those markets in years.


Seats are scheduled to be up almost 20% in PWM in 2018 vs 2017 and 30% in BTV. What would you call that, if not "growth"?

Re: Why is UA retreating?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:30 pm
by slider
tpaewr wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
yonikasz wrote:
I see UA all the time losing battles to AA at ORD. You would think UA could not be so weak. For example UA is dropping ORD-CMI at the beginning of the school year. Yet, AA has 5-6 daily flights. Why is UA letting AA beat them at their largest hub?


Isn’t CMI still a MQ maintenance base? That makes it a bit of a special case.



MX bases can cause some « unatural » levels of service. When still COEX (later ExpressJet) opened à base in TYS it went from having zero service by CO to multiple flights daily from all the mainland hubs!


Yup. Happens ALL the time in the regional world. It's also why SGU has the level of service it does, because of OO being HQd there. A regional's mx base locations absolutely impact network decisions.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:34 pm
by slider
toxtethogrady wrote:
If UA has retreated anywhere, it was Texas years ago. Why they ever thought a bus could compete with a jet in the Beaumont/Port Arthur market is beyond me...


True there....UA has ceded far too much to AA and given up a lot of the smaller TX markets. BPT used to have oil and gas traffic to justify flight activity, I don't know from a market size standpoint if it would now. But SJT, ABI, DRT, TYR among them all went to AA. Started happening premerger though with the demise (later return, of course, though in smaller scale) of the SRJs.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:40 pm
by jetero
slider wrote:
True there....UA has ceded far too much to AA and given up a lot of the smaller TX markets. BPT used to have oil and gas traffic to justify flight activity, I don't know from a market size standpoint if it would now. But SJT, ABI, DRT, TYR among them all went to AA. Started happening premerger though with the demise (later return, of course, though in smaller scale) of the SRJs.


In fairness CO was never a real player in these markets and didn't start serving most of them until the late 1990s, then left, then came back, then left. The regional market that CO traditionally "ruled" was the old Royale network along the Gulf Coast, but UA has now lost a lot of ground in these markets. Took a look the other day and LFT is down to 3 flights per day (no flight between 8am and 5pm), CLL is down to 2 flights/day on some days. Why even bother?

(Did CO ever even serve ABI?)

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:02 pm
by slider
jetero wrote:
slider wrote:
True there....UA has ceded far too much to AA and given up a lot of the smaller TX markets. BPT used to have oil and gas traffic to justify flight activity, I don't know from a market size standpoint if it would now. But SJT, ABI, DRT, TYR among them all went to AA. Started happening premerger though with the demise (later return, of course, though in smaller scale) of the SRJs.


In fairness CO was never a real player in these markets and didn't start serving most of them until the late 1990s, then left, then came back, then left. The regional market that CO traditionally "ruled" was the old Royale network along the Gulf Coast, but UA has now lost a lot of ground in these markets. Took a look the other day and LFT is down to 3 flights per day (no flight between 8am and 5pm), CLL is down to 2 flights/day on some days. Why even bother?

(Did CO ever even serve ABI?)


Good point--I wasn't implying they were major players, but it's still unfortunate to have seen them bail. But a lot of the TX/LA network goes back to old Texas Intl days as well.

I think when you look at the dearth of regional aircraft generally speaking, (the small gauge aircraft), it's going to be the small markets that really struggle. True beyond TX certainly.

And yes, ABI was served. Can't recall the withdrawal but I want to think, like, maybe 2008? Ish? Maybe someone can clarify.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:12 pm
by Gsdlimey
UA has transitioned from "retreating" to "surrendering" at SEA.

Re: Is UA retreating in some markets?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:13 pm
by jetero
slider wrote:
Good point--I wasn't implying they were major players, but it's still unfortunate to have seen them bail. But a lot of the TX/LA network goes back to old Texas Intl days as well.


Very true. I was too young, but that seemed to have disappeared overnight when the DFW hub was shut down after the CO merger, along with CO's old network centered at ELP, MAF, AUS, and SAT.

slider wrote:
And yes, ABI was served. Can't recall the withdrawal but I want to think, like, maybe 2008? Ish? Maybe someone can clarify.


You are right. Ended 2008 along with SJT.

ACT, BPT, and VCT 2012

DRT 2013

TYR 2016

These small regional markets dependent upon connections have to be high enough frequency to compete against AA (ABI, ACT, and TYR)--perhaps they'd have a better chance of surviving with IAH rebanked.