A week ago TAROM (RO) announced their order for 5 737Max8 aircrafts, presumably aimed at replacing their older 737's and A318. When the CEO of TAROM was asked that would this make the airline effectively all Boeing, he declined to comment. Now there is word that they will lease up to 13 RJ's on top of 2 B737-800's that are 5-years old from Malaysian Airlines. I am really sad that it seems that the days of baby-buses are numbered at RO.

Source: http://business-review.eu/business/taro ... fts-176985

So, where is all this explosive expansion coming from? What is their fleet could possibly end up looking like 5 yrs down the line? Any ideas where the RJ's could come from?

What kind of RJs are they looking at? There's quite a few to choose from: CRJ7/900, SSJ, C series, Embraer E-170/190?

I also understood that RO was looking at returning to the long haul market. What type of aircraft have they shown interest in? A330? 787?

kaitak wrote:

What kind of RJs are they looking at? There's quite a few to choose from: CRJ7/900, SSJ, C series, Embraer E-170/190?

The A220 or E195E2 would be a good replacement for the A318.

VSMUT wrote:

kaitak wrote:

What kind of RJs are they looking at? There's quite a few to choose from: CRJ7/900, SSJ, C series, Embraer E-170/190?

The A220 or E195E2 would be a good replacement for the A318.

I think TAROM should not be adding more fleet type, after getting rid of A318. As much as we aviation fans appreciate diversity, TAROM is too small of an airline to support fleet diversity. Consolidating their fleet on B737 and ATR makes great sense.

kaitak wrote:

What kind of RJs are they looking at? There's quite a few to choose from: CRJ7/900, SSJ, C series, Embraer E-170/190?

I also understood that RO was looking at returning to the long haul market. What type of aircraft have they shown interest in? A330? 787?

The CEO specifically stated that they are not looking at returning to long haul in the next 5 years, so I would presume that is dead. No word on what RJs they are looking at, but 13 seems quite a lot, even if they replace the ATRs.

I suspect an E190 and B738/B38M fleet is the future for TAROM. There are likely going to be cheap E190s coming off lease soon from, or put up for sale, by other airlines, including AC (25 E190s - all owned), AA (20 E190s - all owned), B6 (60 E190s - mix of leased and owned), and AD (65 E190s, mostly leased and some ex-B6). IINM, all of those are of the E190AR type (higher gross weight).

juliuswong wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

kaitak wrote:

What kind of RJs are they looking at? There's quite a few to choose from: CRJ7/900, SSJ, C series, Embraer E-170/190?

The A220 or E195E2 would be a good replacement for the A318.

I think TAROM should not be adding more fleet type, after getting rid of A318. As much as we aviation fans appreciate diversity, TAROM is too small of an airline to support fleet diversity. Consolidating their fleet on B737 and ATR makes great sense.

When an airline is mainly run by the government you can count on them being around for a while.

juliuswong wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

kaitak wrote:

What kind of RJs are they looking at? There's quite a few to choose from: CRJ7/900, SSJ, C series, Embraer E-170/190?

The A220 or E195E2 would be a good replacement for the A318.

I think TAROM should not be adding more fleet type, after getting rid of A318. As much as we aviation fans appreciate diversity, TAROM is too small of an airline to support fleet diversity. Consolidating their fleet on B737 and ATR makes great sense.

When an airline is mainly run by the government you can count on them being around for a while.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I suspect an E190 and B738/B38M fleet is the future for TAROM. There are likely going to be cheap E190s coming off lease soon from, or put up for sale, by other airlines, including AC (25 E190s - all owned), AA (20 E190s - all owned), B6 (60 E190s - mix of leased and owned), and AD (65 E190s, mostly leased and some ex-B6). IINM, all of those are of the E190AR type (higher gross weight).

I suspect you are right. I think so too that the E-series are in the cards for them especially with the new ownership of Boeing, although, I am thinking these would be new orders, not leases of used ones. I think they might actually replace the ATR's or pull the ATRs only for domestic routes/very short international (SOF comes to mind).

fpetrutiu wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I suspect an E190 and B738/B38M fleet is the future for TAROM. There are likely going to be cheap E190s coming off lease soon from, or put up for sale, by other airlines, including AC (25 E190s - all owned), AA (20 E190s - all owned), B6 (60 E190s - mix of leased and owned), and AD (65 E190s, mostly leased and some ex-B6). IINM, all of those are of the E190AR type (higher gross weight).

I suspect you are right. I think so too that the E-series are in the cards for them especially with the new ownership of Boeing, although, I am thinking these would be new orders, not leases of used ones. I think they might actually replace the ATR's or pull the ATRs only for domestic routes/very short international (SOF comes to mind).

The introduction of the 737 NG and MAX made me likely think as well that the A220 is out of the question now...even though the A221 and A223 would be perfect for busier routes while the AT76 or DH4B handles shorter ones.

The leasing of the RJs makes total sense from economic perspective. They may also be used for domestic service within Romania. The problem with the ATRs is that they cannot compete against the jets that others (particularly the LCCs) may run into Romania and are a little too small for services into places like the UK. One reason why RO might have chosen Boeing is the US transit hub based at CND. The Americans are likely paying Romania a handsome sum for it, so ordering planes from Boeing might be a gesture of goodwill or might have been part of the deal.

usdcaguy wrote:

The leasing of the RJs makes total sense from economic perspective. They may also be used for domestic service within Romania. The problem with the ATRs is that they cannot compete against the jets that others (particularly the LCCs) may run into Romania and are a little too small for services into places like the UK. One reason why RO might have chosen Boeing is the US transit hub based at CND. The Americans are likely paying Romania a handsome sum for it, so ordering planes from Boeing might be a gesture of goodwill or might have been part of the deal.

I really doubt that had anything to do with this. RO has been historically a good Boeing customer with only two odd balls the A310 and A318. Both were acquired by political pressures by the EU. One when Romania joined the EU the other right after the fall of communism.

juliuswong wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

kaitak wrote:

What kind of RJs are they looking at? There's quite a few to choose from: CRJ7/900, SSJ, C series, Embraer E-170/190?

The A220 or E195E2 would be a good replacement for the A318.

I think TAROM should not be adding more fleet type, after getting rid of A318. As much as we aviation fans appreciate diversity, TAROM is too small of an airline to support fleet diversity. Consolidating their fleet on B737 and ATR makes great sense.

TAROM has barely any presence outside of Bucharest. The A220 or larger E-jets would be perfect for expanding into the rest of Romania, while still having the legs to fly all the way to western europe.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

fpetrutiu wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I suspect an E190 and B738/B38M fleet is the future for TAROM. There are likely going to be cheap E190s coming off lease soon from, or put up for sale, by other airlines, including AC (25 E190s - all owned), AA (20 E190s - all owned), B6 (60 E190s - mix of leased and owned), and AD (65 E190s, mostly leased and some ex-B6). IINM, all of those are of the E190AR type (higher gross weight).

I suspect you are right. I think so too that the E-series are in the cards for them especially with the new ownership of Boeing, although, I am thinking these would be new orders, not leases of used ones. I think they might actually replace the ATR's or pull the ATRs only for domestic routes/very short international (SOF comes to mind).

The introduction of the 737 NG and MAX made me likely think as well that the A220 is out of the question now...even though the A221 and A223 would be perfect for busier routes while the AT76 or DH4B handles shorter ones.

They don't have any ATR -600s or Q400s. They primarily operate 42-500s, and a pair of 72-500s. This makes the gap between the ATRs and the 737s even bigger though.

IMHO, we can't discount the A220 just because they went for more 737s. It's not as if the relationship is only with Boeing either, they have been an Airbus operator for 25 years.

VSMUT wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

The A220 or E195E2 would be a good replacement for the A318.

I think TAROM should not be adding more fleet type, after getting rid of A318. As much as we aviation fans appreciate diversity, TAROM is too small of an airline to support fleet diversity. Consolidating their fleet on B737 and ATR makes great sense.

TAROM has barely any presence outside of Bucharest. The A220 or larger E-jets would be perfect for expanding into the rest of Romania, while still having the legs to fly all the way to western europe.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

fpetrutiu wrote:

I suspect you are right. I think so too that the E-series are in the cards for them especially with the new ownership of Boeing, although, I am thinking these would be new orders, not leases of used ones. I think they might actually replace the ATR's or pull the ATRs only for domestic routes/very short international (SOF comes to mind).

The introduction of the 737 NG and MAX made me likely think as well that the A220 is out of the question now...even though the A221 and A223 would be perfect for busier routes while the AT76 or DH4B handles shorter ones.

They don't have any ATR -600s or Q400s. They primarily operate 42-500s, and a pair of 72-500s. This makes the gap between the ATRs and the 737s even bigger though.

IMHO, we can't discount the A220 just because they went for more 737s. It's not as if the relationship is only with Boeing either, they have been an Airbus operator for 25 years.

The ATR fleet is essential to TAROM for both domestic and regional operations to cities that are within a stone's throw of Bucharest ie. SOF, SKG, BEG. Like all the larger carriers of the Balkan region, a turbo prop fleet plays a key role (Air Serbia, Croatia, Aegean/Olympic).

Having said so I'd assume they would obtain a fleet of newer turbo-props, replace the A318s & 737-700 with Airbus A220s and then the 737-300 & 737-800 with the 737-8max that are on current order.

Melbourne wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

I think TAROM should not be adding more fleet type, after getting rid of A318. As much as we aviation fans appreciate diversity, TAROM is too small of an airline to support fleet diversity. Consolidating their fleet on B737 and ATR makes great sense.

TAROM has barely any presence outside of Bucharest. The A220 or larger E-jets would be perfect for expanding into the rest of Romania, while still having the legs to fly all the way to western europe.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

The introduction of the 737 NG and MAX made me likely think as well that the A220 is out of the question now...even though the A221 and A223 would be perfect for busier routes while the AT76 or DH4B handles shorter ones.

They don't have any ATR -600s or Q400s. They primarily operate 42-500s, and a pair of 72-500s. This makes the gap between the ATRs and the 737s even bigger though.

IMHO, we can't discount the A220 just because they went for more 737s. It's not as if the relationship is only with Boeing either, they have been an Airbus operator for 25 years.

The ATR fleet is essential to TAROM for both domestic and regional operations to cities that are within a stone's throw of Bucharest ie. SOF, SKG, BEG. Like all the larger carriers of the Balkan region, a turbo prop fleet plays a key role (Air Serbia, Croatia, Aegean/Olympic).

Having said so I'd assume they would obtain a fleet of newer turbo-props, replace the A318s & 737-700 with Airbus A220s and then the 737-300 & 737-800 with the 737-8max that are on current order.

Not sure that I follow. The CEO specifically quoted acquiring up to 13 regional jets. A turboprop would not replace the A318 or B737-700. The MAX's are meant to replace the A318 and B737-300's, the NG's will stay in fleet for now. So I am guessing the new RJ's are for expansion.

fpetrutiu wrote:

Melbourne wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

TAROM has barely any presence outside of Bucharest. The A220 or larger E-jets would be perfect for expanding into the rest of Romania, while still having the legs to fly all the way to western europe.




They don't have any ATR -600s or Q400s. They primarily operate 42-500s, and a pair of 72-500s. This makes the gap between the ATRs and the 737s even bigger though.

IMHO, we can't discount the A220 just because they went for more 737s. It's not as if the relationship is only with Boeing either, they have been an Airbus operator for 25 years.

The ATR fleet is essential to TAROM for both domestic and regional operations to cities that are within a stone's throw of Bucharest ie. SOF, SKG, BEG. Like all the larger carriers of the Balkan region, a turbo prop fleet plays a key role (Air Serbia, Croatia, Aegean/Olympic).

Having said so I'd assume they would obtain a fleet of newer turbo-props, replace the A318s & 737-700 with Airbus A220s and then the 737-300 & 737-800 with the 737-8max that are on current order.

Not sure that I follow. The CEO specifically quoted acquiring up to 13 regional jets. A turboprop would not replace the A318 or B737-700. The MAX's are meant to replace the A318 and B737-300's, the NG's will stay in fleet for now. So I am guessing the new RJ's are for expansion.

Did they actually state that the MAX' are to replace the A318 and 737-800? The number is incorrect, they have 8 to replace and only ordered 5 737s. The size is off as well.

VSMUT wrote:

fpetrutiu wrote:

Melbourne wrote:

The ATR fleet is essential to TAROM for both domestic and regional operations to cities that are within a stone's throw of Bucharest ie. SOF, SKG, BEG. Like all the larger carriers of the Balkan region, a turbo prop fleet plays a key role (Air Serbia, Croatia, Aegean/Olympic).

Having said so I'd assume they would obtain a fleet of newer turbo-props, replace the A318s & 737-700 with Airbus A220s and then the 737-300 & 737-800 with the 737-8max that are on current order.

Not sure that I follow. The CEO specifically quoted acquiring up to 13 regional jets. A turboprop would not replace the A318 or B737-700. The MAX's are meant to replace the A318 and B737-300's, the NG's will stay in fleet for now. So I am guessing the new RJ's are for expansion.

Did they actually state that the MAX' are to replace the A318 and 737-800? The number is incorrect, they have 8 to replace and only ordered 5 737s. The size is off as well.

Well the current 738s just arrived. So eventually you'd assume they'd be replaced by their newer max versions as well

VSMUT wrote:

fpetrutiu wrote:

Melbourne wrote:

The ATR fleet is essential to TAROM for both domestic and regional operations to cities that are within a stone's throw of Bucharest ie. SOF, SKG, BEG. Like all the larger carriers of the Balkan region, a turbo prop fleet plays a key role (Air Serbia, Croatia, Aegean/Olympic).

Having said so I'd assume they would obtain a fleet of newer turbo-props, replace the A318s & 737-700 with Airbus A220s and then the 737-300 & 737-800 with the 737-8max that are on current order.

Not sure that I follow. The CEO specifically quoted acquiring up to 13 regional jets. A turboprop would not replace the A318 or B737-700. The MAX's are meant to replace the A318 and B737-300's, the NG's will stay in fleet for now. So I am guessing the new RJ's are for expansion.

Did they actually state that the MAX' are to replace the A318 and 737-800? The number is incorrect, they have 8 to replace and only ordered 5 737s. The size is off as well.

No, specifically said to standardize on single type. Presumption is that A318's are on the chopping block. The NG's are relatively new. There are 4 A318's and 4 B737-300's that I presume will need to go. This order for 5 MAX's will definitely take care of the A318's and one B737-300, but you are most certainly right, on one-on-one basis that is not enough to replace them. That is where I think that upcoming order they want to place for regional jets comes in. I believe some of those routes served by the A318 and B737-300's are too thin for the equipment and would be more efficiently served by RJ's. My initial question was that 13 RJ's that the CEO is quoted that they want to acquire seems quite a bit. That should amount for quite a bit of growth (at least in terms of routes/frequencies served).

This seems like a smart move on their part. I honestly do not understand what the challenge some have with it. A standardized 737 fleet gives them the ability to cover most of their markets well.

Saludos,
Alex

fpetrutiu wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

fpetrutiu wrote:

Not sure that I follow. The CEO specifically quoted acquiring up to 13 regional jets. A turboprop would not replace the A318 or B737-700. The MAX's are meant to replace the A318 and B737-300's, the NG's will stay in fleet for now. So I am guessing the new RJ's are for expansion.

Did they actually state that the MAX' are to replace the A318 and 737-800? The number is incorrect, they have 8 to replace and only ordered 5 737s. The size is off as well.

No, specifically said to standardize on single type. Presumption is that A318's are on the chopping block. The NG's are relatively new. There are 4 A318's and 4 B737-300's that I presume will need to go. This order for 5 MAX's will definitely take care of the A318's and one B737-300, but you are most certainly right, on one-on-one basis that is not enough to replace them. That is where I think that upcoming order they want to place for regional jets comes in. I believe some of those routes served by the A318 and B737-300's are too thin for the equipment and would be more efficiently served by RJ's. My initial question was that 13 RJ's that the CEO is quoted that they want to acquire seems quite a bit. That should amount for quite a bit of growth (at least in terms of routes/frequencies served).

Well it obviously isnt one type if they are getting RJs. There is no doubt that the A318s are leaving, but look at the seat capacity of them. At 107 - 113 seats, they look far more likely to be replaced by something like an E190 or E195. Even the 737-300s seat more than the A318s. And dont the latest 737-800s seat 189? Quite a jump.

VSMUT wrote:

And dont the latest 737-800s seat 189?

Actually these were their first 738s (after the ones they leased), and they were just planes not taken by Pegasus (that's why they had 189 seats), so Tarom just took them instead of PC.

The other two have 160 seats, as they have a Business section, as was normal in the rest of Tarom airplanes.

albertocsc wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

And dont the latest 737-800s seat 189?

Actually these were their first 738s (after the ones they leased), and they were just planes not taken by Pegasus (that's why they had 189 seats), so Tarom just took them instead of PC.

The other two have 160 seats, as they have a Business section, as was normal in the rest of Tarom airplanes.

Don't they sell business class on those as well with the middle seat blocked out? Personally I hate that practice.

I'd say the 221 would be a perfect fit, but I see them grabbing the E190 E2 instead

fpetrutiu wrote:

usdcaguy wrote:

The leasing of the RJs makes total sense from economic perspective. They may also be used for domestic service within Romania. The problem with the ATRs is that they cannot compete against the jets that others (particularly the LCCs) may run into Romania and are a little too small for services into places like the UK. One reason why RO might have chosen Boeing is the US transit hub based at CND. The Americans are likely paying Romania a handsome sum for it, so ordering planes from Boeing might be a gesture of goodwill or might have been part of the deal.

I really doubt that had anything to do with this. RO has been historically a good Boeing customer with only two odd balls the A310 and A318. Both were acquired by political pressures by the EU. One when Romania joined the EU the other right after the fall of communism.

The A310 and ATR where aquired in the 1990's. A310 arrived on ROT fleet on 1992, and ATR on 1998 and 1999 six units, another in 2003 and the last two in 2009.

The A318 arrived at ROT on 2006-2007. The contract I did not know when was signed, but for sure not on the same year. To say it was a political gesture to buy 4 aircraft, is just BIAS!
The communist regim had aquirred Boeing because at that time, they really hoped that they can produced some parts in Romania and also to force the URSS in some offset deal for the fleet that they where buying. Didn't work the deal with the US of A, but worked with the Russians. IAR started producing Kamov under license on Brasov plant.
A310 arrived at ROT because the 767 had a line of customers streched from Seattle all the way to NY.

talonone wrote:

fpetrutiu wrote:

usdcaguy wrote:

The leasing of the RJs makes total sense from economic perspective. They may also be used for domestic service within Romania. The problem with the ATRs is that they cannot compete against the jets that others (particularly the LCCs) may run into Romania and are a little too small for services into places like the UK. One reason why RO might have chosen Boeing is the US transit hub based at CND. The Americans are likely paying Romania a handsome sum for it, so ordering planes from Boeing might be a gesture of goodwill or might have been part of the deal.

I really doubt that had anything to do with this. RO has been historically a good Boeing customer with only two odd balls the A310 and A318. Both were acquired by political pressures by the EU. One when Romania joined the EU the other right after the fall of communism.

The A310 and ATR where aquired in the 1990's. A310 arrived on ROT fleet on 1992, and ATR on 1998 and 1999 six units, another in 2003 and the last two in 2009.

The A318 arrived at ROT on 2006-2007. The contract I did not know when was signed, but for sure not on the same year. To say it was a political gesture to buy 4 aircraft, is just BIAS!
The communist regim had aquirred Boeing because at that time, they really hoped that they can produced some parts in Romania and also to force the URSS in some offset deal for the fleet that they where buying. Didn't work the deal with the US of A, but worked with the Russians. IAR started producing Kamov under license on Brasov plant.
A310 arrived at ROT because the 767 had a line of customers streched from Seattle all the way to NY.

The A318 was ordered in 1/16/2006, conditioned by the French government for Romania to pay off its A310's dept for EU adherence starting 1/1/2007. In a deal for the by-then stored A310's that were loosing tons of money and the airline tried to already sell them, They paid 8m Euros to Airbus that included the last of the A310 and placed the order for the A318; first of which was delivered the same year on November 15. Sorry the link below is in Romanian, you will have to use Google translate.

http://www.gandul.info/stiri/cu-2-aeron ... uri-255503

fpetrutiu wrote:

talonone wrote:

fpetrutiu wrote:

I really doubt that had anything to do with this. RO has been historically a good Boeing customer with only two odd balls the A310 and A318. Both were acquired by political pressures by the EU. One when Romania joined the EU the other right after the fall of communism.

The A310 and ATR where aquired in the 1990's. A310 arrived on ROT fleet on 1992, and ATR on 1998 and 1999 six units, another in 2003 and the last two in 2009.

The A318 arrived at ROT on 2006-2007. The contract I did not know when was signed, but for sure not on the same year. To say it was a political gesture to buy 4 aircraft, is just BIAS!
The communist regim had aquirred Boeing because at that time, they really hoped that they can produced some parts in Romania and also to force the URSS in some offset deal for the fleet that they where buying. Didn't work the deal with the US of A, but worked with the Russians. IAR started producing Kamov under license on Brasov plant.
A310 arrived at ROT because the 767 had a line of customers streched from Seattle all the way to NY.

The A318 was ordered in 1/16/2006, conditioned by the French government for Romania to pay off its A310's dept for EU adherence starting 1/1/2007. In a deal for the by-then stored A310's that were loosing tons of money and the airline tried to already sell them, They paid 8m Euros to Airbus that included the last of the A310 and placed the order for the A318; first of which was delivered the same year on November 15. Sorry the link below is in Romanian, you will have to use Google translate.

http://www.gandul.info/stiri/cu-2-aeron ... uri-255503

So, if you buy a plane you don not have to pat for it!? 4 jets to bribe Romania entry în the EU??!!
The conspiration theory will never end.

The latest rumour I heard was for Embraer E170s to replace the ATRs. Came from within the management, but take it with a grain of salt...

They also scheduled more flights to the east (Odessa, Baku, Tbilisi...) which are conveniently scheduled to offer connections. Unfortunately seems like most of their connections are around three hours which is extremely uncompetitive.

That said, I think adding more planes with the current airport infrastructure is pure madness. OTP's terminal is rather small and way too busy most of the time. I honestly hope an expansion happens soon as it's desperately needed at the moment.

It seems like both ex-TAROM A310-325 have found their way to Iran's Mahan Air. Skyliner aviation is now reporting both A310 (MSN 636 & 644, previously registration EK-31001, EK-31002) delivered from EVN to THR on 28 Aug 2018.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4

Looks like Tarom is acquiring 2 Embraer E190 under a dry-lease agreement. Any ideas where these come from? don't think they are new.

https://www.air24.ro/news/tarom-va-achi ... 7-max-7283

fpetrutiu wrote:

Looks like Tarom is acquiring 2 Embraer E190 under a dry-lease agreement. Any ideas where these come from? don't think they are new.

https://www.air24.ro/news/tarom-va-achi ... 7-max-7283

There are plenty pre-loved Embraer E190 now on the market. Azul Linhas Aéreas Brasileiras and Virgin Australia have shed a few recently. They are some young birds too, around 4-8 years young. https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... tatus&p=15

The Embraer will be a wonderful aircraft for Tarom. I think they could easily use it to replace the A318s and then have the E95 to replace the B737-700. They could keep the B738 for high density routes. In other words apply the same strategy as LO.

I think TAROM would be better off to standardize and have a fleet purely made up of A220s. It would cover all of Europe, north Africa and Middle East from anywhere in Romania. With both -100 and -300, the capacity per plane is just right and allow maximum flexibility.

raylee67 wrote:

I think TAROM would be better off to standardize and have a fleet purely made up of A220s. It would cover all of Europe, north Africa and Middle East from anywhere in Romania. With both -100 and -300, the capacity per plane is just right and allow maximum flexibility.

IMHO, the A220 is probably too small for western european routes. Romania is pretty far away from Western Europe, so will have to offset the long flights with more seats. With a large Romanian diaspora, filling those seats is probably not going to be too hard either.

IMHO, the A220 is probably too small for western european routes. Romania is pretty far away from Western Europe, so will have to offset the long flights with more seats. With a large Romanian diaspora, filling those seats is probably not going to be too hard either.[/quote]

I agree on size, however I think the Embraer decision came down to cost. Picking up used E190's on the pre-loved marked is probably a lot cheaper than buying new and waiting for them.