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Noshow
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:02 am

What engines will the boom business jet use?
 
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c933103
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:02 am

fbgdavidson wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
Alot of employers pay for biz. However, most of the profit does come from economy. Premium makes money, but not at the size of economy due to the sheer number of economy passengers vs premium.


Rubbish....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc

Of course there are variations and all of the scenarios that are impossible to go over but this shows a *rough* illustration of the numbers for a sold out flight between London and Washington. Even if you adjust the numbers to account for the fact certain cabins won't be fully booked, certain premium aspects such as lounges are factored in etc. it's impossible to say that economy makes more money. Otherwise why does almost every airline with longhaul flights offer premium cabins?

Image

The graph is an excessively over simplification of the fact that I don't think it have any meaning although F/B are indeed revenue generator
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:05 am

stratclub wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
BobleBrave wrote:

People are such sheep. I read that the Governor of California wants to put all the cars in California on the grid. Well OK Genius, where will we get the electricity? I'm only guessing but I'm pretty sure that he thinks that all you have to do plug your car with it's huge batteries into an outlet and the power will just magically appear there.

We should send Elon Musk to Mars now so that he can develop Mars non existent natural resources for the thousands of people that will immigrate their in his fractured fairy tales version of the future.

Burning fuel in power plant will be cleaner than burning fuel in individual cars in most places and that also take air pollution away from inner city. And then you can also go renewable/nuclear
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:30 am

[quote="c933103"
Burning fuel in power plant will be cleaner than burning fuel in individual cars in most places and that also take air pollution away from inner city. And then you can also go renewable/nuclear[/quote]

Using electric cars creates a need for mining a lot of rare earth materials and take a lot of energy to make them into a battery.

Nuclear will not increase significantly unless somebody gets fusion practical and economical.

If by renewables you mean wind and solar, they will not produce enough electricity anytime soon to power the majority of vehicles.

The only renewables that really have a shot are biofuels that don't use food crops as seed material and can produce more fuel per acre than corn, soybeans and sugar cane. If somebody creates an economical biogas/biodiesel it can be carbon neutral, renewable and work with internal combustion engines to eliminate the mining and eventual waste of batteries.
 
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:08 am

FatCat wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FatCat wrote:
Wow, 50 years ago we made a 100 seater that could travel twice the speed of sound and now we struggle to make a 55 seater, that's evolution

That 100 seater had governmental sponsors willing to write off development costs and get carve outs on noise regulations. I doubt Boom will be so lucky.

Agree. That was another sign of how times have changed, don't you think?
50 years ago we had Governments that invested in technlogical development.
By the way Concorde out of LHR had noise limitation, it is nicely explained on Just Planes video (made in 1996).


That was a standard procedure at many airports. Through procedures like that, they managed to not be excessively noisy compared to the other airliners of those times when it was new.

Governments today invest only in the renumeration of their government members and in finding ways to do the least amount of work possible. They are lazy.

We just aren't seeing really great technology leaps these days.
 
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Jamake1
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:27 am

cpd wrote:

You can still rest in economy class. Even I can, and usually find it very hard to get rest in economy class. I was also able to work in economy class too. The seats had power sockets provided, so my computer did't run out of power. It was fine. These big flat seats and fancy wine and dining are not neeed. Even economy tickets can be quite flexible too.

There are efficiency dividends by sending people in economy class.


Judging by your post, you are definitely not a frequent international business traveler. Most business travelers are not in J class for the food & wine. They are there to get a good night’s sleep before heading into meetings upon arrival. I would argue that there are efficiency dividends to be had by sending a business executive across the world in a cabin that allows him/her a good night’s sleep for a client meeting in the morning...
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c933103
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:46 am

planecane wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Burning fuel in power plant will be cleaner than burning fuel in individual cars in most places and that also take air pollution away from inner city. And then you can also go renewable/nuclear


Using electric cars creates a need for mining a lot of rare earth materials and take a lot of energy to make them into a battery.

Nuclear will not increase significantly unless somebody gets fusion practical and economical.

If by renewables you mean wind and solar, they will not produce enough electricity anytime soon to power the majority of vehicles.

The only renewables that really have a shot are biofuels that don't use food crops as seed material and can produce more fuel per acre than corn, soybeans and sugar cane. If somebody creates an economical biogas/biodiesel it can be carbon neutral, renewable and work with internal combustion engines to eliminate the mining and eventual waste of batteries.

The cleanness of battery production is also something that should be concerned about, but usually they aren't produced in cities so it can reduce the overall pollution within each individual cities.
New nuclear fission plants are still being constructed across the world although not in places like the US.
As for renewable the point for now is not to entirely dependent on them but to increase their shares.
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cpd
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:06 am

Jamake1 wrote:
cpd wrote:

You can still rest in economy class. Even I can, and usually find it very hard to get rest in economy class. I was also able to work in economy class too. The seats had power sockets provided, so my computer did't run out of power. It was fine. These big flat seats and fancy wine and dining are not neeed. Even economy tickets can be quite flexible too.

There are efficiency dividends by sending people in economy class.


Judging by your post, you are definitely not a frequent international business traveler. Most business travelers are not in J class for the food & wine. They are there to get a good night’s sleep before heading into meetings upon arrival. I would argue that there are efficiency dividends to be had by sending a business executive across the world in a cabin that allows him/her a good night’s sleep for a client meeting in the morning...


Even I can sleep in economy class. I do travel business sometimes, I'm doing so next month on Emirates. I just don't think those precious executives need to travel in business class. Some execs lead by example and travel just in economy class.
 
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:01 pm

cpd wrote:
You can still rest in economy class. Even I can, and usually find it very hard to get rest in economy class. I was also able to work in economy class too. The seats had power sockets provided, so my computer did't run out of power. It was fine. These big flat seats and fancy wine and dining are not neeed. Even economy tickets can be quite flexible too.

There are efficiency dividends by sending people in economy class.


Of course you can find a way to rest / work in Economy, but there is no comparison to the space and comfort provided by a premium seat. This is why premium seats exist.

Cost effectiveness needs to be viewed holistically. Scrip and send someone on a red-eye to Europe in Economy, sat upright, and you can't expect them to function as effectively as sending them in a flat bed where they can rest and sleep more comfortably. So you're damaging the (human) resource, likely impacting the work you sent them there to perform. And if you're flying someone internationally it's likely that the work is pretty important to your companies bottom line. Do you risk that, and the potential it may cost, or do you add further cost and include a rest day. A premium seat is a pretty good compromise.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:12 pm

stratclub wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
BobleBrave wrote:

People are such sheep. I read that the Governor of California wants to put all the cars in California on the grid. Well OK Genius, where will we get the electricity? I'm only guessing but I'm pretty sure that he thinks that all you have to do plug your car with it's huge batteries into an outlet and the power will just magically appear there.

We should send Elon Musk to Mars now so that he can develop Mars non existent natural resources for the thousands of people that will immigrate their in his fractured fairy tales version of the future.


Common misconception.

In fact, adding EVs to the grid with smart metering is facilitating better grid control since the vehicle batteries can be used as a buffer for the household it's attached to and even the main grid itself. It's actually expected to *reduce* peak power requirements!
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:19 pm

c933103 wrote:
planecane wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Burning fuel in power plant will be cleaner than burning fuel in individual cars in most places and that also take air pollution away from inner city. And then you can also go renewable/nuclear


Using electric cars creates a need for mining a lot of rare earth materials and take a lot of energy to make them into a battery.

Nuclear will not increase significantly unless somebody gets fusion practical and economical.

If by renewables you mean wind and solar, they will not produce enough electricity anytime soon to power the majority of vehicles.

The only renewables that really have a shot are biofuels that don't use food crops as seed material and can produce more fuel per acre than corn, soybeans and sugar cane. If somebody creates an economical biogas/biodiesel it can be carbon neutral, renewable and work with internal combustion engines to eliminate the mining and eventual waste of batteries.

The cleanness of battery production is also something that should be concerned about, but usually they aren't produced in cities so it can reduce the overall pollution within each individual cities.
New nuclear fission plants are still being constructed across the world although not in places like the US.
As for renewable the point for now is not to entirely dependent on them but to increase their shares.


Renewables are now cheaper than fossil fuels - and waaaayyyyyy cheaper than nuclear. People really, REALLY, don't know how fast things are changing. The whole of the UK occasionally ran 100% on renewables (mostly off-shore wind power) recently - and this will become normal. It's actually weird that this kind of thing isn't in the news...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
musman9853
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:12 pm

[quote="iamlucky13"]

On the leisure travel side, based on US income statistics from the IRS, there's probably a couple million people in the US who can afford a business class ticket as easily (or more easily when you consider discretionary income tends to rise faster than fixed expenses as net income rises) as the average Joe can afford an economy ticket.

Sure several million people can afford business class, but most of them are not willing to essentially throw away thousands of dollars for no reason.
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:15 pm

stratclub wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
BobleBrave wrote:

People are such sheep. I read that the Governor of California wants to put all the cars in California on the grid. Well OK Genius, where will we get the electricity? I'm only guessing but I'm pretty sure that he thinks that all you have to do plug your car with it's huge batteries into an outlet and the power will just magically appear there.

We should send Elon Musk to Mars now so that he can develop Mars non existent natural resources for the thousands of people that will immigrate their in his fractured fairy tales version of the future.



Renewable energy is very capable of replacing all of our fossil fuel plants. Using nuclear as a bridge to eventual completely solar and wind grid is doable
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B764er
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:36 pm

Zoom only depends on being able to break the sound barrier quietly. If they achieve that, they will sell all the jets they build. Otherwise, they'll have a mini concorde that will suffer all the headaches the original concorde did.
 
psa188
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:04 pm

From Airways:

https://airwaysmag.com/manufacturer/boo ... -everyone/

"There will be some challenges ahead for both Boom and Boeing before they can continue moving forward with these supersonic plans. Not only must they find a way for the plane to be cost effective to run, but it must be able to carry enough passengers for airlines to not have to charge the high Concorde prices we all remember."

This is the understatement of the year. Somehow, Boom plans on magically finding an engine that can operate to supersonic speeds yet won't be a gas hog or expensive to maintain. Also, the sonic boom problem is miraculously going away. I wonder if anyone at Boom has read Davies' Supersonic (Airliner) Non-Sense : A Case Study in Applied Market Research book?

https://www.amazon.com/Supersonic-Airli ... 1888962097
 
planecane
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:40 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:

Renewables are now cheaper than fossil fuels - and waaaayyyyyy cheaper than nuclear. People really, REALLY, don't know how fast things are changing. The whole of the UK occasionally ran 100% on renewables (mostly off-shore wind power) recently - and this will become normal. It's actually weird that this kind of thing isn't in the news...


It probably isn't in the news because it isn't true. The UK was under 20% wind power in 2017. That percentage is electricity generation. If you instantly made all vehicles electric, then you'd need to generate more electricity and the renewable percentage of generation would go down.

If renewables were cheaper than fossil fuels (without subsidies and carbon taxes) then the world would be moving towards 100% renewables very quickly and if they were waaaayyyyyy cheaper than nuclear than not a single nuclear reactor would be being built anymore.
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:43 pm

c933103 wrote:
fbgdavidson wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
Alot of employers pay for biz. However, most of the profit does come from economy. Premium makes money, but not at the size of economy due to the sheer number of economy passengers vs premium.


Rubbish....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc

Of course there are variations and all of the scenarios that are impossible to go over but this shows a *rough* illustration of the numbers for a sold out flight between London and Washington. Even if you adjust the numbers to account for the fact certain cabins won't be fully booked, certain premium aspects such as lounges are factored in etc. it's impossible to say that economy makes more money. Otherwise why does almost every airline with longhaul flights offer premium cabins?

Image

The graph is an excessively over simplification of the fact that I don't think it have any meaning although F/B are indeed revenue generator


Exactly. Does it take into account upgrades? Non rev? Etc? How about route length, actual loadfactor over the months/year, etc.

Looking back at my forecasts, my point was a bit off base, as it depends on the routes. Some has economy as the main driver, others have premium. My apologies for making a general statement without going back and looking at my data.

upperdeckfan wrote:
acos24 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:

Are you serious? If most people in J are FF upgrades I would like to know from where airline profit come from?

BTW, you would be surprised of how many major global companies pay J on intercontinental trips.

What makes this a dream is being able to develop a supersonic aircraft and fly it profitably at the same fares of existing subsonic ones. Capital and operating costs will make that unfeasible.


Ok you make a very good point, don't know how I forgot that. I've never met anyone who pays for business class, but I guess I'm just a peasant and not in "those circles"

I've worked for several large companies and its usually only executive level (president and above) who get business class paid for when they fly. Us worker drones get economy.


Get a friend who manages corporate contracts at CWT and you'll get to know how many global companies (oil and gas, tech, pharmaceutical, etc) fly hundreds of people every day in paid int'l J.

Not to mention the hundreds of governmental offices around the world (US, EU. UN, etc) that fly J as well.


Can confirm government officials fly biz.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:26 pm

planecane wrote:
It probably isn't in the news because it isn't true.

Truth is no longer a requirement for making the news, right?

But what he said is right, for one day at least the UK's grid ran 100% off renewables.

And what you said is true too, that this did not account for a lot of load that would be present if all transportation was electric, because it isn't.

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Amiga500
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:26 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Renewables are now cheaper than fossil fuels - and waaaayyyyyy cheaper than nuclear. People really, REALLY, don't know how fast things are changing. The whole of the UK occasionally ran 100% on renewables (mostly off-shore wind power) recently - and this will become normal. It's actually weird that this kind of thing isn't in the news...


Erm, they are cheaper if you are brutally simplistic about it. Its something the tree-huggers really drone on about - and its outright lies.

Per Watt provided, yes, they *can* be cheaper on a sunny day with a fair wind etc.

Per guaranteed Wattage into the grid, they definitely are not.



Even the best offshore wind farms produce rated load only 30-35% of the time. Which means, you need at least 4 offshore wind turbines located in very separated locations to be sure of delivering the rated power of one turbine to the grid.

Indeed, its more likely you need a mix of disparate sources, wind, hydro and solar (tidal and wave are not prevalent in UK so are negligible here) to be very sure of delivering that rated power into the grid. Which pushes the cost far above both fossil and nuclear.

The future fix for it will be storage (I had thought this would take the form of hydrogen - but it now looks like new battery technology or supercapacitors is more likely) - but we aren't there yet and won't be for some time - regardless of the few large Tesla sites that are emerging around the world.
 
lhrnue
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:32 pm

Wake me up when it has its maiden flight.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:45 pm

musman9853 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:

On the leisure travel side, based on US income statistics from the IRS, there's probably a couple million people in the US who can afford a business class ticket as easily (or more easily when you consider discretionary income tends to rise faster than fixed expenses as net income rises) as the average Joe can afford an economy ticket.


Sure several million people can afford business class, but most of them are not willing to essentially throw away thousands of dollars for no reason.


Sure. I wouldn't either. On the other hand, a sibling of mine, who actually makes less than I do, has paid the premium out of his own pocket in the past.

This part of the discussion would be a lot easier if we had some data on this. The airlines obviously know exactly how many people pay for these seats versus upgarding via miles, but they keep that information to themselves. I suppose independent financial analysts likely develop their own estimates of how much direct revenue business class operations generate, but I haven't found such information in a freely available source yet.

B764er wrote:
Zoom only depends on being able to break the sound barrier quietly. If they achieve that, they will sell all the jets they build. Otherwise, they'll have a mini concorde that will suffer all the headaches the original concorde did.


They claim their business plan does not depend on that at all, but mainly on speed advantages over water routes. They argue there are enough routes primarily over water to justify their plans.

I'm not sure how to assess that claim, so I'll settle for waiting and watching to see how much interest picks up if their tech demonstrator project succeeds.

They are no doubt hoping, however, to see regulations adjusted to be based on actual volume at ground level, rather than even a whisper of a boom being banned.
 
hinckley
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:13 pm

I have to say, for a forum that usually has generally intelligent discourse, this topic has somehow garnered more drivel than I've seen in ages. J-class is unprofitable? Airlines without J- and F-classes make more money? What a load of crap.

There are plenty of LCCs that make good money, but the large, legacy carriers are of course making most (not all) of their profits at the front of plane. It sure ain't comin from $149 trans-con fares. And yes, international J has become so good that many airlines are eliminating F. It makes perfect sense . . . J is becoming the new F, Premium Economy is becoming the new J. There's no single, global model that works for every airline on every route, but could we just stop with the J is not profitable stuff? Please?

Jamake1 wrote:
Judging by your post, you are definitely not a frequent international business traveler. Most business travelers are not in J class for the food & wine. They are there to get a good night’s sleep before heading into meetings upon arrival. I would argue that there are efficiency dividends to be had by sending a business executive across the world in a cabin that allows him/her a good night’s sleep for a client meeting in the morning...


YES. It's the bed, stupid. I'm one of those guys. 60 years old, started with nothing. I fly overnight whenever I can, shower at the airport and immediately go to work. And I've been flying exclusively in the front of airplanes for many years now. My companies (and now my clients) pay for that. I take a minimum of 8 - 10 TATL or TPAC flights a year. All in J. And the DL, BA, LH, LX, JL, CX, etc. cabins that I fly in from BOS are 85 - 100% full on every flight. I'm sure that there are some FF milers up there with me, but most of the other people are flying for business purposes like me and their companies are paying. And yes, at this point in my life, when I'm flying on my own and if I can't use FF miles, I pay for J out of my own pocket. I would be considered well-off by any normal measure, but I am FAR from being part of the super wealthy. And there are plenty of people like me - with their wives and families - that are up there in J as well.

So is there a J market in the world today? Of course there is. Is there a profitable business model for a J-only aircraft or airline? No one has discovered it yet. And that's the intelligent topic that we should be discussing here on a.net imho.
 
flyforever
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:25 pm

acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


When you are a manager, they pay you even twice that amount if necessary. When you are a manager, every minute you waste making decision is a minute that you won't invest your expertise to generate more revenue. When you are a manager, If you close 1 deal of a million dollar I'm more than happy to pay you a 5k ticket to go back home within the same evening (instead of paying you an expensive hotel night with per diem, car, etc etc).

FYI, the concord cost around 15k GBP and flew for 30 years....
 
flyforever
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:27 pm

behramjee wrote:
has BOOM stated the jet's official flying range capability? any indications?

Will the jet be allowed to operate out of LCY?

As far as the demand for 2000 jets go, some key 'business airport markets" dont have the enough slots available to enable an expansion of services. These include HKG, SIN, NRT, BOM, PVG, ICN, FRA, AMS, LHR and CDG.


If you are British Airways, you drop 2 flights of economy+business+first with 777 London-JFK and you insert 1 flight full business/first with Boom and 1 flight economy only. Et voila', same price, same slots, but business and first class people will be there in 4 hours less than the economy people.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:22 am

psa188 wrote:
Somehow, Boom plans on magically finding an engine that can operate to supersonic speeds yet won't be a gas hog or expensive to maintain.


Nobody is appealing to magic. It will require a low or medium bypass turbofan, most likely derived from an existing commercial core, but with a new fan stage and the lower pressure turbine matched to that fan, and a nozzle matched to the higher exhaust velocity.

That's not an overwhelming technical challenge. The engine manufacturers know how to design a fan stage, LPT and nozzle. What it requires that Boom doesn't have so far is lots of money, because it is highly doubtful any of the engine manufacturers will sign on as risk-sharing partners.

That means Boom needs to show good results from their tech demonstrator to validate their estimates of operating costs, or nobody will invest much more than they've already received.

The aircraft will be a fuel hog, and no doubt more expensive to maintain than conventional aircraft. But even if it's fuel-burn per seat mile is every bit as bad as the Concorde's, it will still be in the range of 20-25% of their targeted overall costs, a similar range that airlines currently see.

psa188 wrote:
Also, the sonic boom problem is miraculously going away. I wonder if anyone at Boom has read Davies' Supersonic (Airliner) Non-Sense : A Case Study in Applied Market Research book?


The sonic boom problem does not miraculously go away. The sonic boom problem limits their routes, and therefore their market claims have to be considered in light of the routes they claim it would be able to fly.

The book has been around for 20 years. I think it's safe to say its arguments are no secret. I haven't read it, but from the one review on Amazon, it sounds like it makes a pretty convincing case that even though the global air travel market has more than doubled since it was written, 200+ seat SST's don't have a very large market, so Boeing should not revive the 2707.

But what do 200+ seat SST's have to do with the discussion at hand?
 
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:31 am

psa188 wrote:
From Airways:

https://airwaysmag.com/manufacturer/boo ... -everyone/

"There will be some challenges ahead for both Boom and Boeing before they can continue moving forward with these supersonic plans. Not only must they find a way for the plane to be cost effective to run, but it must be able to carry enough passengers for airlines to not have to charge the high Concorde prices we all remember."

This is the understatement of the year. Somehow, Boom plans on magically finding an engine that can operate to supersonic speeds yet won't be a gas hog or expensive to maintain. Also, the sonic boom problem is miraculously going away. I wonder if anyone at Boom has read Davies' Supersonic (Airliner) Non-Sense : A Case Study in Applied Market Research book?

https://www.amazon.com/Supersonic-Airli ... 1888962097

Boom's plan is supersonic over water only iirc?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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monomojo
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:59 am

planecane wrote:

If renewables were cheaper than fossil fuels (without subsidies and carbon taxes) then the world would be moving towards 100% renewables very quickly and if they were waaaayyyyyy cheaper than nuclear than not a single nuclear reactor would be being built anymore.


That's exactly the case in the US. Solar and wind are cost competitive per kW of delivered power with natural gas and both handily beat coal and nuclear, to the point where coal and nuclear plants are shutting down (barring Trump administration bailouts) because they're no longer economical to operate. Unless something changes (such as carbon taxes levied on fossil fuels), the new reactors at Vogtle and Watt's Bar (the first new reactors to come online in 20 years in the US) will be the last commercial nuclear power plants ever built in the US.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:10 am

32andBelow wrote:
fbgdavidson wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
That’s such BS. The most profitable airlines in the world don’t even have J and F


Hmm...
Image

nmdrdh787 wrote:
Alot of employers pay for biz. However, most of the profit does come from economy. Premium makes money, but not at the size of economy due to the sheer number of economy passengers vs premium.


Rubbish....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc

Of course there are variations and all of the scenarios that are impossible to go over but this shows a *rough* illustration of the numbers for a sold out flight between London and Washington. Even if you adjust the numbers to account for the fact certain cabins won't be fully booked, certain premium aspects such as lounges are factored in etc. it's impossible to say that economy makes more money. Otherwise why does almost every airline with longhaul flights offer premium cabins?
You realize those LCCs don't fly longhaul right?
Image

So most of those airlines don’t even have first class. And they aren’t as profitable as some LCCs on a margin basis.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:52 am

monomojo wrote:
planecane wrote:

If renewables were cheaper than fossil fuels (without subsidies and carbon taxes) then the world would be moving towards 100% renewables very quickly


That's exactly the case in the US. Solar and wind are cost competitive per kW of delivered power with natural gas and both handily beat coal and nuclear, to the point where coal and nuclear plants are shutting down


So... as I said before and as two posters have now beautifully demonstrated by trying to refute facts that others have backed up... It *is* happening and it's happening much quicker than people realise.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Noshow
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:11 am

It IS very complicate to develop a matching, cruise efficient supersonic engine for the boom business jet. It takes certainly not just a bit "modification" work. Unless they have one at hand the whole project looks not credible to me. They started with the claim that they had some engine and couldn't talk about it yet or similar but now it got quiet on that front. Very quiet.
I certainly support innovators, start ups, new ideas and everything but this is to much hot air until now. How can they promise their numbers without the engine they base them on?
No engine = no business jet
Still hope they find one.
 
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EGTESkyGod
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:16 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Nobody is appealing to magic. It will require a low or medium bypass turbofan, most likely derived from an existing commercial core, but with a new fan stage and the lower pressure turbine matched to that fan, and a nozzle matched to the higher exhaust velocity.

That's not an overwhelming technical challenge. The engine manufacturers know how to design a fan stage, LPT and nozzle. What it requires that Boom doesn't have so far is lots of money, because it is highly doubtful any of the engine manufacturers will sign on as risk-sharing partners.

That means Boom needs to show good results from their tech demonstrator to validate their estimates of operating costs, or nobody will invest much more than they've already received.

The aircraft will be a fuel hog, and no doubt more expensive to maintain than conventional aircraft. But even if it's fuel-burn per seat mile is every bit as bad as the Concorde's, it will still be in the range of 20-25% of their targeted overall costs, a similar range that airlines currently see.


Great post, well written.

Whilst I understand that per seat mile or per passenger Concorde's consumption was horrendous, at Mach 2 the Olympus 593 was the most efficient jet engine in the world. However, the effort to get to Mach 2 was not so efficient, especially with the need for reheat.

I can see this Boom project being technically successful and with better range and versatility than Concorde. The problem comes with convincing enough operators to purchase them, which ironically is what nearly did for Concorde. If it happens, I can't wait.
I came, I saw, I Concorde! www.gofundme.com/lineupandwait
 
hinckley
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:37 pm

Good conversation re technical issue that this plane will face. But I also think that there's a challenging market consideration for it as well. As I've stated earlier, I think there's a strong and profitable intercontinental business class market. I'm part of it. But business people value time in two different ways - how long and when? To say it differently, if the Boom aircraft cuts three hours off the NY-LON flying time, that's theoretically a huge advantage for a business traveler. But if there are so few planes that there are not enough flying at all the times that the market needs them to fly, much of the market will opt for a slower, but better timed alternative.

The other market consideration is what Boeing found when it floated the idea of the Sonic Cruiser. That is that many intercontinental routes are well suited to current sub-sonic speeds. I know the US east coast TATL market best, and a seven or eight hour eastbound flight combined with a five or six hour time difference allows for natural after-work and before-work departure and arrival schedules. As Concorde showed, if you leave JFK at 7 am and fly 3.5 hours to LHR, you're arriving in London at the end of the business day. You've lost a whole day flying, so why not just fly sub-sonically? Same with a 7 pm flight arriving at 3:30 or 4 am (curfews be damned!). I'd rather have a few more hours of flight time and sleep on a sub-sonic aircraft. I know that this is a TATL issue, but I think there may be similar issues for Europe-middle east scheduling. Europe to the sub-continent schedules may be substantially enhanced though. And maybe some TPACs as well.
 
psa188
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:55 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
It will require a low or medium bypass turbofan, most likely derived from an existing commercial core, but with a new fan stage and the lower pressure turbine matched to that fan, and a nozzle matched to the higher exhaust velocity.

That's not an overwhelming technical challenge. The engine manufacturers know how to design a fan stage, LPT and nozzle. What it requires that Boom doesn't have so far is lots of money, because it is highly doubtful any of the engine manufacturers will sign on as risk-sharing partners.


Nobody is questioning the technical capability of the Boom project. I am sure it will fly.

What I question is if it will be economical to operate. Despite the rosy press releases from Colorado, I remain a skeptic.

hinckley wrote:
The other market consideration is what Boeing found when it floated the idea of the Sonic Cruiser. That is that many intercontinental routes are well suited to current sub-sonic speeds. I know the US east coast TATL market best, and a seven or eight hour eastbound flight combined with a five or six hour time difference allows for natural after-work and before-work departure and arrival schedules. As Concorde showed, if you leave JFK at 7 am and fly 3.5 hours to LHR, you're arriving in London at the end of the business day. You've lost a whole day flying, so why not just fly sub-sonically? Same with a 7 pm flight arriving at 3:30 or 4 am (curfews be damned!). I'd rather have a few more hours of flight time and sleep on a sub-sonic aircraft. I know that this is a TATL issue, but I think there may be similar issues for Europe-middle east scheduling. Europe to the sub-continent schedules may be substantially enhanced though. And maybe some TPACs as well.


This is one of Davies' arguments. Why pay more to rush across the Atlantic just to arrive in time to pay for a hotel? Someone with more time on their hands needs to analyze other routes to see if supersonic travel works.
 
cpd
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:16 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
psa188 wrote:
Somehow, Boom plans on magically finding an engine that can operate to supersonic speeds yet won't be a gas hog or expensive to maintain.


Nobody is appealing to magic. It will require a low or medium bypass turbofan, most likely derived from an existing commercial core, but with a new fan stage and the lower pressure turbine matched to that fan, and a nozzle matched to the higher exhaust velocity.

That's not an overwhelming technical challenge. The engine manufacturers know how to design a fan stage, LPT and nozzle. What it requires that Boom doesn't have so far is lots of money, because it is highly doubtful any of the engine manufacturers will sign on as risk-sharing partners.

That means Boom needs to show good results from their tech demonstrator to validate their estimates of operating costs, or nobody will invest much more than they've already received.

The aircraft will be a fuel hog, and no doubt more expensive to maintain than conventional aircraft. But even if it's fuel-burn per seat mile is every bit as bad as the Concorde's, it will still be in the range of 20-25% of their targeted overall costs, a similar range that airlines currently see.

psa188 wrote:
Also, the sonic boom problem is miraculously going away. I wonder if anyone at Boom has read Davies' Supersonic (Airliner) Non-Sense : A Case Study in Applied Market Research book?


The sonic boom problem does not miraculously go away. The sonic boom problem limits their routes, and therefore their market claims have to be considered in light of the routes they claim it would be able to fly.

The book has been around for 20 years. I think it's safe to say its arguments are no secret. I haven't read it, but from the one review on Amazon, it sounds like it makes a pretty convincing case that even though the global air travel market has more than doubled since it was written, 200+ seat SST's don't have a very large market, so Boeing should not revive the 2707.

But what do 200+ seat SST's have to do with the discussion at hand?

Simply put, all SST aircraft are dead ducks, even the smaller ones.

is it going to be quieter than a 787 or A380? And will it be economically viable? Doubtful.

It will take Boeing or Airbus to do a proper SST.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:42 pm

cpd wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
But what do 200+ seat SST's have to do with the discussion at hand?

Simply put, all SST aircraft are dead ducks, even the smaller ones.

is it going to be quieter than a 787 or A380? And will it be economically viable? Doubtful.

It will take Boeing or Airbus to do a proper SST.


If you want to argue that all SST proposals should be viewed skeptically, I agree.

Just to flat out call the very notion of SST's unrealistic is not convincing. There clearly are non-trivial technical challenges, and major economic risks, but these factors do evolve over time.

It does not have to be quieter than a 787 or an A380. It has to meet the current noise regulations, and any expected to be enacted during it's production life.

There is no fundamental reason to think only Boeing and Airbus can bring an SST to market. They do have the most financial resources, and the largest pools of engineering talent, but they also tend to limit their financial risks (especially in light of the challenges the A380 and 787 have both faced). Clearly you agree that an SST is a high risk project, so they're also very unlikely to undertake such a project.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:55 pm

I could equally argue ONLY large enterprises with deep engineering talent and financial pockets can afford to undertake these high risk projects. Making a business case for any SST is difficult which is why there has only been one.

GF
 
grbauc
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:04 pm

acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.



All depends on you're perspective. There are companies paying and there are a lot of people with the money to pay. If your from OC orange county Ca, it will not seem so out of touch. If your from say Hemet Ca yea you might wonder.
 
grbauc
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:13 pm

AvObserver wrote:
Like many posters here, I find business class fares exorbitant and don't use them. However, there are plenty of other not truly wealthy folks who can and do use them on occasion. I think a fair number of them would trade amenities for speed. I've got to think Boom has studied the business case long enough to think there's a viable market for some fair number of SSTs although 2000 airplanes sounds wildly optimistic to me. Maybe 200 frames would be more realistic. I understand and partly share pessimism about this venture but I'm not ready yet to say they can't do it. With new technology, this airplane would have substantially better fuel burn and operating economics than did Concorde so we should be careful not to label this as an aviation dead end before it's better defined.



My friend who makes double me, sits coach often, where I won't. The speed factor is his main concern. He would pay triple for the saved time. I am a airline industry nut and love the airports and experience (many times) I also know a lot that make a bunch and would never see the value in J or F. Maybe not now with this venture but it will be a next step forward Id imagine.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:10 pm

New poster here... and not looking to digress too much... but technically, would reheat to the centerline #2 power plant assist with engine out asymmetric thrust issues especially at the critical times when heavy at takeoff? Additionally a little afterburner during high drag transonic acceleration could even reduce fuel burn. Technical minds... any thoughts?
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:22 pm

YES. It's the bed, stupid. I'm one of those guys. 60 years old, started with nothing. I fly overnight whenever I can, shower at the airport and immediately go to work. And I've been flying exclusively in the front of airplanes for many years now. My companies (and now my clients) pay for that. I take a minimum of 8 - 10 TATL or TPAC flights a year. All in J. And the DL, BA, LH, LX, JL, CX, etc. cabins that I fly in from BOS are 85 - 100% full on every flight. I'm sure that there are some FF milers up there with me, but most of the other people are flying for business purposes like me and their companies are paying. And yes, at this point in my life, when I'm flying on my own and if I can't use FF miles, I pay for J out of my own pocket. I would be considered well-off by any normal measure, but I am FAR from being part of the super wealthy. And there are plenty of people like me - with their wives and families - that are up there in J as well.

So is there a J market in the world today? Of course there is. Is there a profitable business model for a J-only aircraft or airline? No one has discovered it yet. And that's the intelligent topic that we should be discussing here on a.net imho.[/quote]

Fully agree! I am on my second red eye in two days. If I couldn’t lie flat I could not do it. I’m 61, own my own business and fly TPAC 8-10 times a year. I’m at my peak and only the jet lag slows me down.

I’m rooting for Boom! Me and my top 3 guys would use it. It’s simple, get us there faster and ready to go and we will go more.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:51 pm

Btw, regards the discussion on renewables there is a fantastic series of articles published on a website called Seeking Alpha. This a financial site so it is loaded w analysis. The articles are published under the stock symbol fslr which stands for First Solar.

In summary on a purely generation basis solar is already the most economical but the fact that it intermittent still holds it back. But utility scale batteries are coming fast so in a few years solar will scale up significantly.

If ev combined w solar backed up batteries scales, for the first time in over a century oil will be decoupled from ground transportation meaning oil prices will decline into 10-30$ range.

Boom!

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