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Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:10 pm
by smokeybandit
Ambitious no doubt. Especially with such a short time frame (2025).

Boom is confident its planes can be in the air ahead of its rivals. Test flights in California could take place as early as the end of the year, while it has already been involved in more than 1,000 wind tunnel tests.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... l-economy/

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:38 pm
by acos24
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:46 pm
by BobleBrave
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


I was just about to comment on that quote, let's face it : we are talking about the new face of flight travel democratization right there. :biggrin:

Seriously though, can someone tell this guy he is some 40+ years late, and that we'll probably be running out of oil within its little baby EIS ?

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:50 pm
by acos24
BobleBrave wrote:
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


I was just about to comment on that quote, let's face it : we are talking about the new face of flight travel democratization right there. :biggrin:

Seriously though, can someone tell this guy he is some 40+ years late, and that we'll probably be running out of oil within its little baby EIS ?


Well, maybe it can lower the fare of business class on normal jets so maybe one day i'll get to fly not in coach.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:08 pm
by upperdeckfan
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


Are you serious? If most people in J are FF upgrades I would like to know from where airline profit come from?

BTW, you would be surprised of how many major global companies pay J on intercontinental trips.

What makes this a dream is being able to develop a supersonic aircraft and fly it profitably at the same fares of existing subsonic ones. Capital and operating costs will make that unfeasible.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:26 pm
by ScottB
acos24 wrote:
Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


Quite a few business class tickets are paid fares, especially in intercontinental markets. There's a reason why the LCY-JFK flight is in a special all-J configuration, and it's not for frequent flyer redemptions.

This would very likely be quite compelling in a market like LON-NYC where it would (with an oh-dark-thirty departure from NYC or late evening arrival in LON) be quite feasible to do a same-day business trip across the Atlantic. I'm not convinced it's financially workable if European countries, as they seem likely to do, start taxing the living daylights out of commercial air travel in order to maintain the facade of combating climate change -- not to mention it's not clear they've managed to fix the issue of sonic booms.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:54 pm
by acos24
upperdeckfan wrote:
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


Are you serious? If most people in J are FF upgrades I would like to know from where airline profit come from?

BTW, you would be surprised of how many major global companies pay J on intercontinental trips.

What makes this a dream is being able to develop a supersonic aircraft and fly it profitably at the same fares of existing subsonic ones. Capital and operating costs will make that unfeasible.


Ok you make a very good point, don't know how I forgot that. I've never met anyone who pays for business class, but I guess I'm just a peasant and not in "those circles"

I've worked for several large companies and its usually only executive level (president and above) who get business class paid for when they fly. Us worker drones get economy.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:41 am
by AirFiero
BobleBrave wrote:
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


I was just about to comment on that quote, let's face it : we are talking about the new face of flight travel democratization right there. :biggrin:

Seriously though, can someone tell this guy he is some 40+ years late, and that we'll probably be running out of oil within its little baby EIS ?


If we are supposedly running out of oil, ALL airliners will be affected. And electric propulsion is a pipe dream unless some unbelievable new battery technology happens in the near future.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:48 am
by behramjee
has BOOM stated the jet's official flying range capability? any indications?

Will the jet be allowed to operate out of LCY?

As far as the demand for 2000 jets go, some key 'business airport markets" dont have the enough slots available to enable an expansion of services. These include HKG, SIN, NRT, BOM, PVG, ICN, FRA, AMS, LHR and CDG.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:49 am
by tpaewr
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.



That is simply not true. If it was you would see airlines removing J cabins as you *DO* see with Intl F. But J & W cabins are in fact the profit centers for the industry, not Y.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:50 am
by JustSomeDood
BobleBrave wrote:
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


I was just about to comment on that quote, let's face it : we are talking about the new face of flight travel democratization right there. :biggrin:

Seriously though, can someone tell this guy he is some 40+ years late, and that we'll probably be running out of oil within its little baby EIS ?


Of all the brick walls that Boom will face, running out of oil isn't one of them, demand for oil has likely peaked already while tech advances keep finding more supply.

Of more concern is their ability to make the aircraft with enough range for the time savings to be substantial. TPAC-capable range is a must, IMO.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:53 am
by AAIL86
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.



Umm yes. If business class was as unprofitable as you say, all intercontinental flights globally would just be economy (and maybe premium economy).
The reality is that thousands of long haul flights chock full of paid J fares leave daily. If people weren't buying them, airlines would quit offering them...

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:20 am
by iamlucky13
This is not recently unveiled. I believe they started publicly discussing this project in 2016, and they announced investments from Japan Airlines and other sources last year to fund their tech demonstrator.

This is followup reporting from the company's presence at the Farnborough Airshow.

acos24 wrote:
Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?


My current employer does, for flights over a certain length. I've never gotten to experience the perk, but some of the senior employees I work with have. My prior employer allowed it in special circumstances (eg - only seat available, if urgent customer support needs arose). The fully burdened cost (which is far higher than salary) of employing professional staff means it can have a business justification even beyond employee satisfaction (which is a retention factor) if jet lag too seriously impacts their productivity and judgement on long trips.

On the leisure travel side, based on US income statistics from the IRS, there's probably a couple million people in the US who can afford a business class ticket as easily (or more easily when you consider discretionary income tends to rise faster than fixed expenses as net income rises) as the average Joe can afford an economy ticket.

upperdeckfan wrote:
What makes this a dream is being able to develop a supersonic aircraft and fly it profitably at the same fares of existing subsonic ones. Capital and operating costs will make that unfeasible.


Possibly. I've run some rough numbers before based on their stated capital costs (which are very high - they're supposing a $200 million purchase price for a 55 seat aircraft), financing, fuel (my estimate based on modest improvements compared to Concorde), flight rate, and a few other factors I tried to estimate.

It looks doable at a first pass, but based on a lot of assumptions and approximations.

Japan Airlines probably took a more critical look at their plan before agreeing to invest in the project.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:21 am
by FlyHappy
acos24 wrote:
I've never met anyone who pays for business class, but I guess I'm just a peasant and not in "those circles"

I've worked for several large companies and its usually only executive level (president and above) who get business class paid for when they fly. Us worker drones get economy.


Don't mind the a.net high rollers.
Here's the thing, though - working for large companies, and being rank-and-file, its not surprising that you only see and perceive Y travel. In many small to mid size companies, paid J is a much bigger statistical percentage of overall travel; partially because there are more "executives" and travel expense approval (even for drones) is often much looser (mostly in good ways).
Another element is that sometimes in the US, short notice travel is so steep in Y that J is literally a tiny amount greater. I've had the experience a few times that paying checked bag fees (necessary for equipment) made J cheaper than Y on shorter haul flights.

Small biz may pay more for the same premium seats (no corporate contracts, etc), but understanding that physical comfort has merit, is probably better understood by small biz owners.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:07 am
by AvObserver
Like many posters here, I find business class fares exorbitant and don't use them. However, there are plenty of other not truly wealthy folks who can and do use them on occasion. I think a fair number of them would trade amenities for speed. I've got to think Boom has studied the business case long enough to think there's a viable market for some fair number of SSTs although 2000 airplanes sounds wildly optimistic to me. Maybe 200 frames would be more realistic. I understand and partly share pessimism about this venture but I'm not ready yet to say they can't do it. With new technology, this airplane would have substantially better fuel burn and operating economics than did Concorde so we should be careful not to label this as an aviation dead end before it's better defined.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:19 am
by Jshank83
FlyHappy wrote:
acos24 wrote:
I've never met anyone who pays for business class, but I guess I'm just a peasant and not in "those circles"

I've worked for several large companies and its usually only executive level (president and above) who get business class paid for when they fly. Us worker drones get economy.


Don't mind the a.net high rollers.
Here's the thing, though - working for large companies, and being rank-and-file, its not surprising that you only see and perceive Y travel. In many small to mid size companies, paid J is a much bigger statistical percentage of overall travel; partially because there are more "executives" and travel expense approval (even for drones) is often much looser (mostly in good ways).
Another element is that sometimes in the US, short notice travel is so steep in Y that J is literally a tiny amount greater. I've had the experience a few times that paying checked bag fees (necessary for equipment) made J cheaper than Y on shorter haul flights.

Small biz may pay more for the same premium seats (no corporate contracts, etc), but understanding that physical comfort has merit, is probably better understood by small biz owners.


To add to this, I know two companies that in the last two years that started letting pretty much everyone fly business on Intl flights. I would categorize one as smaller and the other as mid sized. They still have to fly coach on domestic. Now lower level workers aren't flying Intl much, if at all, but mid level do some. So if they do, I would imagine a fair amount of other companies let it happen.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:12 am
by BobleBrave
JustSomeDood wrote:
BobleBrave wrote:
acos24 wrote:

Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


I was just about to comment on that quote, let's face it : we are talking about the new face of flight travel democratization right there. :biggrin:

Seriously though, can someone tell this guy he is some 40+ years late, and that we'll probably be running out of oil within its little baby EIS ?


Of all the brick walls that Boom will face, running out of oil isn't one of them, demand for oil has likely peaked already while tech advances keep finding more supply.

Of more concern is their ability to make the aircraft with enough range for the time savings to be substantial. TPAC-capable range is a must, IMO.


Indeed, but there is a reason why demand as already peaked, oil is getting harder and harder to get, the energy return on energy invested (EROEI) as passed from 100 until the 1940s to between 30 and 8 today. That translate on price and demand. One day we will have to save oil for more noble usage (chemestry, medecine...) and stop burning it, because it will make no economical nor energetical sense.
My point being developing such an airplane is so difficult I dont see it enter service before 2030, nor breaking even before EROEI is still high enough (fuel consumption/passenger/km will have nothing in common with whatever A&B will offer in the subsonic future)

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:59 am
by upperdeckfan
acos24 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
acos24 wrote:

Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


Are you serious? If most people in J are FF upgrades I would like to know from where airline profit come from?

BTW, you would be surprised of how many major global companies pay J on intercontinental trips.

What makes this a dream is being able to develop a supersonic aircraft and fly it profitably at the same fares of existing subsonic ones. Capital and operating costs will make that unfeasible.


Ok you make a very good point, don't know how I forgot that. I've never met anyone who pays for business class, but I guess I'm just a peasant and not in "those circles"

I've worked for several large companies and its usually only executive level (president and above) who get business class paid for when they fly. Us worker drones get economy.


Get a friend who manages corporate contracts at CWT and you'll get to know how many global companies (oil and gas, tech, pharmaceutical, etc) fly hundreds of people every day in paid int'l J.

Not to mention the hundreds of governmental offices around the world (US, EU. UN, etc) that fly J as well.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:54 am
by FatCat
Wow, 50 years ago we made a 100 seater that could travel twice the speed of sound and now we struggle to make a 55 seater, that's evolution

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:54 am
by c933103
iamlucky13 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
What makes this a dream is being able to develop a supersonic aircraft and fly it profitably at the same fares of existing subsonic ones. Capital and operating costs will make that unfeasible.


Possibly. I've run some rough numbers before based on their stated capital costs (which are very high - they're supposing a $200 million purchase price for a 55 seat aircraft), financing, fuel (my estimate based on modest improvements compared to Concorde), flight rate, and a few other factors I tried to estimate.

It looks doable at a first pass, but based on a lot of assumptions and approximations.

Japan Airlines probably took a more critical look at their plan before agreeing to invest in the project.

They paid 10 million and now every time someone talk about supersonic travel JAL would be named. It'd probably worth the cost even if you are just looking at this name value aspect.
And actually, how much money do Boom have? Report say the 10M USD paid by JAL could already get them about 1% share of Boom Technology, and I don't think 1000M=1B would be enough to develop a supersonic jet.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:04 pm
by Amiga500
55 seats?

I'd have thought 25 would be more appropriate - unless there is a scaling bucket they can fit into around that size.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:36 pm
by Heinkel
acos24 wrote:
Ok you make a very good point, don't know how I forgot that. I've never met anyone who pays for business class, but I guess I'm just a peasant and not in "those circles"

I've worked for several large companies and its usually only executive level (president and above) who get business class paid for when they fly. Us worker drones get economy.


May be you should change your employer. My employer pays J on all intercontinental flights. Have been from Germany to BKK and PEK in J that way. They also pay J for contractors.

Little limitation: All the countries around the Mediterranean Sea don't count as "intercontinental".

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:41 pm
by Heinkel
FatCat wrote:
Wow, 50 years ago we made a 100 seater that could travel twice the speed of sound and now we struggle to make a 55 seater, that's evolution


50 years ago, the USA could build a spaceship, that could bring men to the moon and safely back home.

Today they are not even able to bring people into low earth orbit and back.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:01 pm
by 0newair0
acos24 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
acos24 wrote:

Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


Are you serious? If most people in J are FF upgrades I would like to know from where airline profit come from?

BTW, you would be surprised of how many major global companies pay J on intercontinental trips.

What makes this a dream is being able to develop a supersonic aircraft and fly it profitably at the same fares of existing subsonic ones. Capital and operating costs will make that unfeasible.


Ok you make a very good point, don't know how I forgot that. I've never met anyone who pays for business class, but I guess I'm just a peasant and not in "those circles"

I've worked for several large companies and its usually only executive level (president and above) who get business class paid for when they fly. Us worker drones get economy.


Many large companies allow employees at all levels buy business fares if: 1) the trip is international, AND 2) The flight time is more than a set threshold.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:15 pm
by fbgdavidson
acos24 wrote:

Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


I think you might be the one of touch here.

Plenty of corporates and individuals pay for international business and first class tickets out of their own cash (myself included) and aren't ludicrously wealthy, though I guess the latter is a matter of perspective. If someone told me I was ludicrously wealthy I'd try to stifle my laughter.

At these pricepoints I don't think it's unfeasible, I just think the whole project is unfeasible.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:52 pm
by stratclub
AirFiero wrote:
BobleBrave wrote:
acos24 wrote:
If we are supposedly running out of oil, ALL airliners will be affected. And electric propulsion is a pipe dream unless some unbelievable new battery technology happens in the near future.

People are such sheep. I read that the Governor of California wants to put all the cars in California on the grid. Well OK Genius, where will we get the electricity? I'm only guessing but I'm pretty sure that he thinks that all you have to do plug your car with it's huge batteries into an outlet and the power will just magically appear there.

We should send Elon Musk to Mars now so that he can develop Mars non existent natural resources for the thousands of people that will immigrate their in his fractured fairy tales version of the future.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:07 pm
by ssteve
Heinkel wrote:
FatCat wrote:
Wow, 50 years ago we made a 100 seater that could travel twice the speed of sound and now we struggle to make a 55 seater, that's evolution


50 years ago, the USA could build a spaceship, that could bring men to the moon and safely back home.

Today they are not even able to bring people into low earth orbit and back.


We'd probably have trouble building the pyramids and wooden square rigged ships o' the line without great expense, too.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:09 pm
by sabby
acos24 wrote:
Ok you make a very good point, don't know how I forgot that. I've never met anyone who pays for business class, but I guess I'm just a peasant and not in "those circles"

I've worked for several large companies and its usually only executive level (president and above) who get business class paid for when they fly. Us worker drones get economy.

Most if not all big Investment Banks allow all levels of employees to travel in J for longhaul flights. That is the reason you see so many profitable multiple dailies between finance hubs with premium configs. Additionally, many Fin-tech, Unicorns and big MNC IT companies allow mid-level and above to fly in J.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:10 pm
by nmdrdh787
Alot of employers pay for biz. However, most of the profit does come from economy. Premium makes money, but not at the size of economy due to the sheer number of economy passengers vs premium.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:15 pm
by raylee67
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?



Actually most companies (or at least Fortune-500 companies) would pay for business class travel. Most of them restrict that to travel of over 8 hours, or only to employees above certain level (e.g. VP or Director level, etc.), or only to employees traveling for external (i.e. client) meetings, etc.

I understand sometimes LON-NYC takes less than 8 hrs, but from what I see, usually people (including HR) interprets this as broadly including all trans-Atlantic flights.

Supersonic travel will raise a dilemma in such travel policy though. Restricting business class travel to flights of more than 8 hrs would include the normal NYC-LON flights, but if the employee travels on the supersonic flights, travel time would cut to 4 hrs and he/she would not qualify, so he/she will go back to the normal "slow" flights.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:17 pm
by 32andBelow
tpaewr wrote:
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.



That is simply not true. If it was you would see airlines removing J cabins as you *DO* see with Intl F. But J & W cabins are in fact the profit centers for the industry, not Y.

That’s such BS. The most profitable airlines in the world don’t even have J and F

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:17 pm
by BobleBrave
stratclub wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
BobleBrave wrote:

People are such sheep. I read that the Governor of California wants to put all the cars in California on the grid. Well OK Genius, where will we get the electricity? I'm only guessing but I'm pretty sure that he thinks that all you have to do plug your car with it's huge batteries into an outlet and the power will just magically appear there.

We should send Elon Musk to Mars now so that he can develop Mars non existent natural resources for the thousands of people that will immigrate their in his fractured fairy tales version of the future.


Keep in mind what are the timefames are actually at play here we are talking about a 15 years leap ahead (2030 EIS would already be an extraordinary achievement with that kind of project).
I'm not getting into the battery and electric cars argument, but 15-20 years is enough to see some (infra)structural changes about the way we travel, and it sure is largely enough to make a kerosene based supersonic 55 seater, looking like a funny crippled dinosaur.

Anyway there's a good chance this Boom project is just a PR exercise...

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:29 pm
by fbgdavidson
32andBelow wrote:
That’s such BS. The most profitable airlines in the world don’t even have J and F


Hmm...
Image

nmdrdh787 wrote:
Alot of employers pay for biz. However, most of the profit does come from economy. Premium makes money, but not at the size of economy due to the sheer number of economy passengers vs premium.


Rubbish....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc

Of course there are variations and all of the scenarios that are impossible to go over but this shows a *rough* illustration of the numbers for a sold out flight between London and Washington. Even if you adjust the numbers to account for the fact certain cabins won't be fully booked, certain premium aspects such as lounges are factored in etc. it's impossible to say that economy makes more money. Otherwise why does almost every airline with longhaul flights offer premium cabins?

Image

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:44 pm
by planecane
BobleBrave wrote:

Indeed, but there is a reason why demand as already peaked, oil is getting harder and harder to get, the energy return on energy invested (EROEI) as passed from 100 until the 1940s to between 30 and 8 today. That translate on price and demand. One day we will have to save oil for more noble usage (chemestry, medecine...) and stop burning it, because it will make no economical nor energetical sense.
My point being developing such an airplane is so difficult I dont see it enter service before 2030, nor breaking even before EROEI is still high enough (fuel consumption/passenger/km will have nothing in common with whatever A&B will offer in the subsonic future)


You are confusing supply and demand. The balance of supply and demand creates the price. If demand has peaked it is due to the price of technologies to use less oil becoming low enough that it makes sense to use them instead (well, that and some crony capitalism government mandates to use it). Assuming that the supply is finite (which may or may not be the case, I certainly don't know), supply peaked before it was discovered by man. Production may have peaked but probably hasn't. It just gets more expensive to produce the newly discovered supplies.

Regardless, aviation uses a very small percentage of wordwide oil. Due to the benefits of hydrocarbons for aviation fuel vs. the alternatives, aircraft could probably stay oil powered for the next 1000 years as other energy sectors move away from oil more and more.

Battery technology makes electric cars practical (albeit still too costly without subsidies) now. As the tech improves and gets cheaper, electric cars can realistically start taking over in 10-15 years. The alternative energy sector will continue to grow. If somebody perfects algae based biofuels it would probably overtake electric cars since it doesn't require rare earth metals. Biofuels could be used for aviation also.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:38 pm
by 32andBelow
fbgdavidson wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
That’s such BS. The most profitable airlines in the world don’t even have J and F


Hmm...
Image

nmdrdh787 wrote:
Alot of employers pay for biz. However, most of the profit does come from economy. Premium makes money, but not at the size of economy due to the sheer number of economy passengers vs premium.


Rubbish....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc

Of course there are variations and all of the scenarios that are impossible to go over but this shows a *rough* illustration of the numbers for a sold out flight between London and Washington. Even if you adjust the numbers to account for the fact certain cabins won't be fully booked, certain premium aspects such as lounges are factored in etc. it's impossible to say that economy makes more money. Otherwise why does almost every airline with longhaul flights offer premium cabins?

Image

So most of those airlines don’t even have first class. And they aren’t as profitable as some LCCs on a margin basis.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:02 pm
by fbgdavidson
32andBelow wrote:
So most of those airlines don’t even have first class. And they aren’t as profitable as some LCCs on a margin basis.


3/10 is now "most"?

Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:17 pm
by ubeema
I’m surprised some people are surprised but Corporate contracts are probably the lion share of F and J fares. Think about all the people working in expatriation and their families. Back in 2011 i was working for a large global consultancy firm and our client paid $11K to fly me Houston - Capetown in J for a week. Client was a major US oil company. They like my work so much they sent me to two additional countries, my airfare expense ended up around $18K. At the time my company policy for air travel will require J for flight above 3 hours or 1500 miles at any level. I was not even a manager then. In my line of work we found out most clients will wait till last minute to authorize travel, and so they will end up paying higher faire regardless of travel class.
IIRC Concorde fares were well above $10K and later after polling frequent flyers how much they thought a fair price should be, Concorde execs at AF and BA were shocked to find out that most passengers were willing to pay more, and so they gladly obliged.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:20 pm
by 32andBelow
fbgdavidson wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
So most of those airlines don’t even have first class. And they aren’t as profitable as some LCCs on a margin basis.


3/10 is now "most"?

The us3 doesn’t offer first class on domestic sectors or RJ sectors. They offer a domestic first class which is like business class.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:30 pm
by EGTESkyGod
Well, this is an exciting prospect. Somehow I think that 2,000 aircraft is slightly over-ambitious, but with Emirates and Etihad you never know. Personally I would like to see British Airways being the launch customer (I doubt that will happen though), and given the symbolic BA001 flight number back to the supersonic LHR-JFK sector.

We can dream...

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:34 pm
by queb
Premium only commercial airlines never worked and never will. Which engines? And $5k only for a ticket, you believe that? it was a lot more expensive on Concorde twenty years ago.

If a new supersonic aircraft becomes reality (and it's a big if) it will be a business jet.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:07 pm
by BobleBrave
planecane wrote:
If demand has peaked it is due to the price of technologies to use less oil becoming low enough that it makes sense to use them instead (well, that and some crony capitalism government mandates to use it).

Assuming that the supply is finite (which may or may not be the case, I certainly don't know), supply peaked before it was discovered by man. Production may have peaked but probably hasn't. It just gets more expensive to produce the newly discovered supplies.


Classic supply/demand theory does not apply in a world of finite ressources (oil, I'm afraid, is certainly a finite ressource). Oil supply (meaning oil extracted and reffined, not oil in the ground) comes at a certain cost (both energeticaly and fincancialy), this cost has been and will continue to be steadily increasing because of oil finiteness (not because of demand), up to a point where demand will drop, because willingness to pay is constant (all things equal).

Image

planecane wrote:
Regardless, aviation uses a very small percentage of wordwide oil.


I wouldn't say "very small" : already 8% back in 2008, do you know one single sector of the economy that has been growing as fast as aviation ?( x2 in 20 years)

planecane wrote:
Due to the benefits of hydrocarbons for aviation fuel vs. the alternatives, aircraft could probably stay oil powered for the next 1000 years as other energy sectors move away from oil more and more.


It would... if it was vital to our very lifes (like oil-based health services, military, education...), but it isn't (except for us A.netters). So the most probable scenario would rather be either a path of transition (if technicaly feasible) or a decline of commercial aviation (the lack of possible alternatives you mention is not a blank cheque for aviation, rather a constraint). Again we are talking long term here...

planecane wrote:
Battery technology makes electric cars practical (albeit still too costly without subsidies) now. As the tech improves and gets cheaper, electric cars can realistically start taking over in 10-15 years. The alternative energy sector will continue to grow. If somebody perfects algae based biofuels it would probably overtake electric cars since it doesn't require rare earth metals. Biofuels could be used for aviation also.


:checkmark:

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:17 pm
by drgmobile
I couldn't quote inline because the ads on this page are blocking the reply option.

To the person who said that only the "ludicrously wealthy" could afford a $5,000 plane ticket, your threshold for "ludicrously wealthy' seems pretty low. This is not a particularly expensive ticket for an international business class or first class ticket.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:34 pm
by Revelation
FatCat wrote:
Wow, 50 years ago we made a 100 seater that could travel twice the speed of sound and now we struggle to make a 55 seater, that's evolution

That 100 seater had governmental sponsors willing to write off development costs and get carve outs on noise regulations. I doubt Boom will be so lucky.

BTW we have various threads on Boom if people want to read more:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=604041

www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1378937

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1389597

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:58 pm
by PlymSpotter
To a business, the main tangible benefits of premium travel are ticket flexibility and the enhanced ability to rest/work onboard and in airport lounges.

But time in the air is still largely wasted time, and money. Cut travel times in half and you could charge a decent premium over 'regular' tickets.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:46 am
by gsg013
acos24 wrote:
“This is not a private jet for the ultra-wealthy.”


Um, yes it is, only the ludicrously wealthy can afford 4,000 GBP (US$5,214) plane tickets... What company pays for business class tickets anymore?

This guy is way out of touch, he's competing with chartered jets, not other commercial airlines. Most people in business class are upgraded because of their frequent flyer status, not because they're paying cash.


I think you are way out of touch with reality... working in finance we regularly pay ~$7500 RT for biz from NYC-London my sister and brother in law in corporate litigation pay for flex biz tickets across the atlantic $10 K plus rt for the ability to cut time in half $5 k one way is not unreasonable or out of the realm of possability for most large corporations especially for executives.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:00 am
by cpd
PlymSpotter wrote:
To a business, the main tangible benefits of premium travel are ticket flexibility and the enhanced ability to rest/work onboard and in airport lounges.

But time in the air is still largely wasted time, and money. Cut travel times in half and you could charge a decent premium over 'regular' tickets.


You can still rest in economy class. Even I can, and usually find it very hard to get rest in economy class. I was also able to work in economy class too. The seats had power sockets provided, so my computer did't run out of power. It was fine. These big flat seats and fancy wine and dining are not neeed. Even economy tickets can be quite flexible too.

There are efficiency dividends by sending people in economy class.

Revelation wrote:
FatCat wrote:
Wow, 50 years ago we made a 100 seater that could travel twice the speed of sound and now we struggle to make a 55 seater, that's evolution

That 100 seater had governmental sponsors willing to write off development costs and get carve outs on noise regulations. I doubt Boom will be so lucky.

BTW we have various threads on Boom if people want to read more:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=604041

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1378937

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1389597


You forget that all aircraft back in the old days were incredibly loud - simple as that. Concorde was sometimes quieter than the other aircraft of the day. It was to be given different engines that would have made it quieter by removing the afterburners and at the same time more powerful and efficient.

I still doubt this Boom project will go anywhere, let's wait and see when the actual plane enters airline service, if it even does so. I don't think it will.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:22 am
by ubeema
cpd wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
To a business, the main tangible benefits of premium travel are ticket flexibility and the enhanced ability to rest/work onboard and in airport lounges.

But time in the air is still largely wasted time, and money. Cut travel times in half and you could charge a decent premium over 'regular' tickets.


You can still rest in economy class. Even I can, and usually find it very hard to get rest in economy class. I was also able to work in economy class too. The seats had power sockets provided, so my computer did't run out of power. It was fine. These big flat seats and fancy wine and dining are not neeed. Even economy tickets can be quite flexible too.

Cpd: You personally might not need F/J amenities but big businesses that keep employees from their homes most of the times with last minute plans week in and out cannot take the chance. There are many perks besides the comfort you get with F/J fares such as priority rebooking in case of delays and cancellations.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:28 am
by dynamo12
Rebooking benefits are nice. It also seems to be automated on AA. I was rebooked to Heathrow same day on BA from AA automatically. Economy pax mentioned they were being rebooked next day on AA metal. I normally fly eco+, but sometimes if it's a critical to get somewhere biz has benefits in more than just comfort.

Don't think biz case is that great for boom personally even so, but I wish them luck, need more of these adventure takers (and I hope noise regs can get loosened up).

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:46 am
by iamlucky13
c933103 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
Japan Airlines probably took a more critical look at their plan before agreeing to invest in the project.

They paid 10 million and now every time someone talk about supersonic travel JAL would be named. It'd probably worth the cost even if you are just looking at this name value aspect.
And actually, how much money do Boom have? Report say the 10M USD paid by JAL could already get them about 1% share of Boom Technology, and I don't think 1000M=1B would be enough to develop a supersonic jet.


That's a fair point, and in fact, I've always assumed that JAL rationalized the expense as at least in part a marketing move.

I'm skeptical the investment was treated entirely marketing, however. At a minimum, if it was all about the marketing, I'd expect they plan on getting several years worth of press mention out of it, meaning, they at least expect Boom to get their tech demonstrator in the air. They'd still have a graceful way bow out if at the point they concluded it has proven uneconomical.

Since my own rough calcs suggest they have a shot, and simply because I'd love to see it work out, I'm going to hold out hope and keep an eye out for their name in the news.

Re: Boom Supersonic corp unveils plan for 55-seat supersonic jet

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:01 am
by FatCat
Revelation wrote:
FatCat wrote:
Wow, 50 years ago we made a 100 seater that could travel twice the speed of sound and now we struggle to make a 55 seater, that's evolution

That 100 seater had governmental sponsors willing to write off development costs and get carve outs on noise regulations. I doubt Boom will be so lucky.

Agree. That was another sign of how times have changed, don't you think?
50 years ago we had Governments that invested in technlogical development.
By the way Concorde out of LHR had noise limitation, it is nicely explained on Just Planes video (made in 1996).