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FA9295
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:13 pm

PavlovsDog wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I'm surprised at no BA PDX-LHR.

Why?

(1) PDX-LHR is in no way a particularly large LON market, (2) it already has a full-service airline offering the LHR route nonstop, and (3) Portland also has multiple other European nonstops which would compete against it for connections.

It's not to say that BA would never consider the route, but being the 4th-wheel to a secondary market that already has both strong connection and nonstop competition--- likely isn't high on BA's priority list.
I believe LON is the largest European destination for Portlanders. I feel like the PDX - Europe market is large enough for two full service, network carries. The business market from Portland to Europe is probably the primary opportunity for BA. Sure DL to LHR is a full-service carrier but they don't fly daily and have limited connections at either end. BA can offer so many destinations from LHR that would be very appealing to a lot of travelers. The other two competitors to Europe are Icelandair and Condor. I would classify both as economy focussed airlines. Neither have a good business class nor premium economy.

One of the problems with long-haul PDX service is that SEA is just a 2.5 to 3 hour drive away. And even at that, AS/QX has hopper flights from PDX to SEA making for a very easy one-stop connection opportunity. If BA started PDX-LHR, one of their two SEA-LHR flights would probably have to get axed in order for it to work, which isn't likely to happen because SEA is a larger market anyway...

I also heard that BA's new LHR-PIT flight was started due to financial incentives from the airport authorities, so I bet that PDX would have to put up a lot of money on the table in order to recruit them.
 
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PDXPOL
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:28 pm

FA9295 wrote:
PavlovsDog wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Why?

(1) PDX-LHR is in no way a particularly large LON market, (2) it already has a full-service airline offering the LHR route nonstop, and (3) Portland also has multiple other European nonstops which would compete against it for connections.

It's not to say that BA would never consider the route, but being the 4th-wheel to a secondary market that already has both strong connection and nonstop competition--- likely isn't high on BA's priority list.
I believe LON is the largest European destination for Portlanders. I feel like the PDX - Europe market is large enough for two full service, network carries. The business market from Portland to Europe is probably the primary opportunity for BA. Sure DL to LHR is a full-service carrier but they don't fly daily and have limited connections at either end. BA can offer so many destinations from LHR that would be very appealing to a lot of travelers. The other two competitors to Europe are Icelandair and Condor. I would classify both as economy focussed airlines. Neither have a good business class nor premium economy.

One of the problems with long-haul PDX service is that SEA is just a 2.5 to 3 hour drive away. And even at that, AS/QX has hopper flights from PDX to SEA making for a very easy one-stop connection opportunity. If BA started PDX-LHR, one of their two SEA-LHR flights would probably have to get axed in order for it to work, which isn't likely to happen because SEA is a larger market anyway...

I also heard that BA's new LHR-PIT flight was started due to financial incentives from the airport authorities, so I bet that PDX would have to put up a lot of money on the table in order to recruit them.



I actually got to see some numbers from the Port. LHR is still the largest underserved European market from PDX. These numbers were from Transport.gov and IATA. I do not have the level of access to obtain those numbers. But it clearly showed that LHR was number one, even with our current level of Europe routs. I cant remember 2-5 but Paris was in there as well as Germany. In the notes, it stated PDX can sustain additional flights to Europe. But as many have stated, Seattle to the North, Salt Lake City, as well as SFO to the south. Many airlines know we have a fairly large amount of international travel, but it would pull from their yields at other airports. Do I think PDX will see additions, Yes. The Port did a presentation for DL for ICN. I believe there is sufficient service to keep and maintain NRT with also adding ICN. I also believe you will see Paris, via Air France. Some day it will happen, just hope sooner than later. The Port does offer incentive packages to new services that is comparable to other airports packages.
 
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:32 pm

The point about PDX's proximity to SEA is reminiscent of what folks said about TPA's relationship to MCO, which are much closer. Today TPA and MCO share T/A service on BA, LH, FI, WK, and DI.

If there is enough of a market in PDX, BA will chase it, regardless of SEA.
 
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:47 am

FA9295 wrote:
PavlovsDog wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Why?

(1) PDX-LHR is in no way a particularly large LON market, (2) it already has a full-service airline offering the LHR route nonstop, and (3) Portland also has multiple other European nonstops which would compete against it for connections.

It's not to say that BA would never consider the route, but being the 4th-wheel to a secondary market that already has both strong connection and nonstop competition--- likely isn't high on BA's priority list.
I believe LON is the largest European destination for Portlanders. I feel like the PDX - Europe market is large enough for two full service, network carries. The business market from Portland to Europe is probably the primary opportunity for BA. Sure DL to LHR is a full-service carrier but they don't fly daily and have limited connections at either end. BA can offer so many destinations from LHR that would be very appealing to a lot of travelers. The other two competitors to Europe are Icelandair and Condor. I would classify both as economy focussed airlines. Neither have a good business class nor premium economy.

One of the problems with long-haul PDX service is that SEA is just a 2.5 to 3 hour drive away. And even at that, AS/QX has hopper flights from PDX to SEA making for a very easy one-stop connection opportunity. If BA started PDX-LHR, one of their two SEA-LHR flights would probably have to get axed in order for it to work, which isn't likely to happen because SEA is a larger market anyway...

I also heard that BA's new LHR-PIT flight was started due to financial incentives from the airport authorities, so I bet that PDX would have to put up a lot of money on the table in order to recruit them.


First, the drive between Portland and Seattle is more like 4-5 hours during rush hour or on Sunday afternoons.

I always think this is a fallacy. I for one sure don’t want to drive 4 hours to catch a flight. I want to fly out of the airport near me.

I don’t know how many people in Portland want to or will drive to SEA for a BA flight.
 
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:01 am

FA9295 wrote:
I also heard that BA's new LHR-PIT flight was started due to financial incentives from the airport authorities, so I bet that PDX would have to put up a lot of money on the table in order to recruit them.

Nah not really, the financial incentive PIT gave was fairly small compared to some of the others, both at PIT and from other cities. It was done to show PIT has some skin in the game but I highly doubt that is the reason BA is starting PIT. BA goes to new markets they view will be a long term success without incentives, not which market offers the largest incentive, and they already stated the reasons they want to start PIT.

As for PDX I absolutely think BA will be there, and sooner rather than later. Here's my opinion from another thread: "especially PDX even though DL already flies the route. The Pacific NW in general is growing so fast its just a matter of time for BA. I remember when BA served SEA and YVR combined 4x weekly with 747s, with YVR being only a tag from SEA. Look at how the capacity to each of those has grown over the years since."

So I think that bodes well for PDX, especially as SEA gets more constrained.
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acentauri
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:11 am

flyPIT wrote:
...........
Nah not really, the financial incentive PIT gave was fairly small compared to some of the others, both at PIT and from other cities. It was done to show PIT has some skin in the game but I highly doubt that is the reason BA is starting PIT. BA goes to new markets they view will be a long term success without incentives, not which market offers the largest incentive, and they already stated the reasons they want to start PIT........

Actually it was the largest incentive ever paid for a flight to Pittsburgh. Here is a viewpoint from the well regarded Pittsburgh Think Tank - The Allegheny Institute: http://www.alleghenyinstitute.org/load- ... gibberish/
As I mentioned before, IMO, the BA flight has a higher probability of long term success if Pittsburgh can clean out the competitors (DL, particularly) and make this the premier service to Europe, even if additional financial support is required during low seasons. Having 3 or 4 carriers with service to Europe looks great on paper, but in the case of Pittsburgh, it'll likely be a fleeting memory. And you don't want that to be a memory of a year round, full service BA flight to LHR.
Last edited by acentauri on Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:14 am

PDXPOL wrote:
I also believe you will see Paris, via Air France.

I think DL would be more likely to launch PDX-CDG than AF.
 
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:15 am

acentauri wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
...........
Nah not really, the financial incentive PIT gave was fairly small compared to some of the others, both at PIT and from other cities. It was done to show PIT has some skin in the game but I highly doubt that is the reason BA is starting PIT. BA goes to new markets they view will be a long term success without incentives, not which market offers the largest incentive, and they already stated the reasons they want to start PIT........

Actually it was the largest incentive ever paid for a flight to Pittsburgh.

Not by a long shot. DL was paid $5 million just for the first year of the PIT-CDG flight. The PVG-PIT charters are substantially more if you look at it from a per flight perspective.


acentauri wrote:
Here is a viewpoint from the well regarded Pittsburgh Think Tank - The Allegheny Institute: http://www.alleghenyinstitute.org/load- ... gibberish/
As I mentioned before, IMO, the BA flight has a higher probability of long term success if Pittsburgh can clean out the competitors (DL, particularly) and make this the premier service to Europe, even if additional financial support is required during low seasons. Having 3 or 4 carriers with service to Europe looks great on paper, but in the case of Pittsburgh, it'll likely be a fleeting memory. And you don't want that to be a memory of a year round, full service BA flight to LHR.

I am familiar with The Allegheny Institute; they simply do not understand how the aviation system works, and they are against pretty much any spending to improve the system. The PIT airport terminal remodel being one of the latest. The AI isn't even convinced that no local taxpayer funds will be used for the project.

It is basic knowledge that nonstop intercontinental airline service increases economic activity. So what does the AI think the economic value is then? They never gave an answer. Even if its only 10% of what the ACAA claims, then it's still worth it. Their response you linked is a joke. "Simply put, the economic impact “study” used to defend Allegheny County’s latest multimillion-dollar exercise in turning taxpayers into venture capitalists to deliver corporate wealthfare is indefensible." It's actually coming from State casino revenues - which is hardly taxpayer funding. "Thus, UK visitor stays would make up only 2 percent or so of the region’s available room nights. It is improbable that 2 percent would create a commensurate number of new hospitality jobs." If hotel occupancy goes up 2% just from this flight then that would be huge! The AI is just not well versed on airport/airline matters.

So getting back on topic, PDX most likely will have to give BA something but I believe they will chose PDX because it will be a good long term market for them, not because they view some small incentive as some sort of windfall.
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:20 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
TP LIS-OAK

Why would the Star Alliance carrier not fly to SFO in that region?
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:32 am

PavlovsDog wrote:
I believe
PavlovsDog wrote:
I feel

Because ____?


PavlovsDog wrote:
Sure DL to LHR is a full-service carrier but they don't fly daily

...did you ever stop to ask why that is?

It's not because they lack suitable aircraft-- they have plenty.
It's not because they lack slots at LHR-- they're sitting relatively pretty.
It's not because they lack the funding-- they're arguably the richest carrier on the planet.

There's another explanation, and it's likely the one that also explains BA's continued absence from that market:
That's all the market currently demands to LON, at a compelling yield.



PavlovsDog wrote:
and have limited connections at either end.

Hmm, that's right... gee, if only DL had another flight to another European gateway from PDX-- ya know, the kind that's specifically purposed for mass connection offerings. :razz:


PavlovsDog wrote:
BA can offer so many destinations from LHR that would be very appealing to a lot of travelers.

Perhaps, but not more than KL can @AMS.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
acentauri
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:10 am

flyPIT wrote:
acentauri wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
...........
Nah not really, the financial incentive PIT gave was fairly small compared to some of the others, both at PIT and from other cities. It was done to show PIT has some skin in the game but I highly doubt that is the reason BA is starting PIT. BA goes to new markets they view will be a long term success without incentives, not which market offers the largest incentive, and they already stated the reasons they want to start PIT........

Actually it was the largest incentive ever paid for a flight to Pittsburgh.

Not by a long shot. DL was paid $5 million just for the first year of the PIT-CDG flight. The PVG-PIT charters are substantially more if you look at it from a per flight perspective.


acentauri wrote:
Here is a viewpoint from the well regarded Pittsburgh Think Tank - The Allegheny Institute: http://www.alleghenyinstitute.org/load- ... gibberish/
As I mentioned before, IMO, the BA flight has a higher probability of long term success if Pittsburgh can clean out the competitors (DL, particularly) and make this the premier service to Europe, even if additional financial support is required during low seasons. Having 3 or 4 carriers with service to Europe looks great on paper, but in the case of Pittsburgh, it'll likely be a fleeting memory. And you don't want that to be a memory of a year round, full service BA flight to LHR.

I am familiar with The Allegheny Institute; they simply do not understand how the aviation system works, and they are against pretty much any spending to improve the system. The PIT airport terminal remodel being one of the latest. The AI isn't even convinced that no local taxpayer funds will be used for the project.

It is basic knowledge that nonstop intercontinental airline service increases economic activity. So what does the AI think the economic value is then? They never gave an answer. Even if its only 10% of what the ACAA claims, then it's still worth it. Their response you linked is a joke. "Simply put, the economic impact “study” used to defend Allegheny County’s latest multimillion-dollar exercise in turning taxpayers into venture capitalists to deliver corporate wealthfare is indefensible." It's actually coming from State casino revenues - which is hardly taxpayer funding. "Thus, UK visitor stays would make up only 2 percent or so of the region’s available room nights. It is improbable that 2 percent would create a commensurate number of new hospitality jobs." If hotel occupancy goes up 2% just from this flight then that would be huge! The AI is just not well versed on airport/airline matters.


Obviously, I'm not including the 10 year old DL bribe, or the recent 2 x Chinese charter $.
Even though the BA incentive is funded from a base of Casino Revenue, it is still PUBLIC Money, owned by the State and distributed to various sources for the benefit of Pennsylvania citizens (directly or indirectly). Portions of that money used to incentivize an airline is money that cannot be used for other arguably more beneficial reasons and that is essentially what that position paper is saying. Further, the lack of substantial, provable evidence of the benefits for the $3M expenditure (ROI) is what the Institute is hitting on and I agree. An even more ? investment is the Chinese charter, which I'm surprised AI hasn't pounded on. Here's another more general position paper from the same source: http://www.alleghenyinstitute.org/wp-co ... l18No7.pdf .
My ?s regarding PIT's international growth is not about stopping it, it's about moving it lock and step with the region's ability to support it. Psychologically, it will likely be more difficult for the city to accept, for example, the loss of the BA LHR flight in a year or 2 than never getting a DUB flight from EI, or any of the other myriad of international LCCs, which could compromise BA's tenure. I also believe the seasonal DL CDG flight will negatively affect the profitability of the BA LHR flight.
 
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:11 am

acentauri wrote:
Obviously, I'm not including the 10 year old DL bribe, or the recent 2 x Chinese charter $.

Well you probably should if you are going to make a statement such as "Actually it was the largest incentive ever paid for a flight to Pittsburgh" regarding the BA subsidy, because that statement is incorrect.


acentauri wrote:
.Further, the lack of substantial, provable evidence of the benefits for the $3M expenditure (ROI) is what the Institute is hitting on and I agree. An even more ? investment is the Chinese charter, which I'm surprised AI hasn't pounded on. Here's another more general position paper from the same source: http://www.alleghenyinstitute.org/wp-co ... l18No7.pdf .
My ?s regarding PIT's international growth is not about stopping it, it's about moving it lock and step with the region's ability to support it. Psychologically, it will likely be more difficult for the city to accept, for example, the loss of the BA LHR flight in a year or 2 than never getting a DUB flight from EI, or any of the other myriad of international LCCs, which could compromise BA's tenure. I also believe the seasonal DL CDG flight will negatively affect the profitability of the BA LHR flight.


The Allegheny Institute again? Here is an opinion piece by the Allegheny Institutes mouthpiece, the Pittsburgh Tribune -Review. The T-R used one of these AI "papers" to make an op-ed about the PIT terminal redo. In fact it was written by the AI's Colin McNickle. It was full of holes, and I love how one of the posters in the comments section pretty much owned the AI and the T-R on the piece.
https://triblive.com/opinion/featuredcommentary/12804570-74/airports-11b-redo-unknowns-serious-questions

If the AI were truly unbiased they would also quote some of the many studies about the positive economic impact of international flights. BTW, the AI link you provided states "For example Delta will receive a subsidy to fly from Indianapolis to Paris (as it does from PIT for a similar flight)". This is false; the PIT-CDG flight is not subsidized. It also states "Airlines are not in business to lose money and low or falling load factors accompanied by the end of subsidies could and probably will lead to some reductions in service.". Well that hasn't happened with the PIT-CDG flight, has it? Plus DE and WW have actually increased flights and their subsidy period isn't even over yet.

So no more Allegheny Institute please. So far the DL flight has been 8 years without a subsidy. I see no reason why BA, DE, and WW won't be successful either. A short term subsidy to show a city has skin in the game might be what it takes for a carrier to begin service; that does not mean the service will be a failure the moment it runs out. If the AIlegheny Institute had their way PIT might have the same Europe service as CMH, which would be a shame as PIT so far has supported its flights. BA, whose parent company also owns EI, is not entering PIT just to drop it in two years so I don't think you are giving the planners there enough credit.
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:03 am

BWIAirport wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
TP LIS-OAK

Why would the Star Alliance carrier not fly to SFO in that region?

1. Difficulty in getting slots at SFO......it is getting really crowed, and less choices.
2. Larger Portuguese population on the East Bay, therefore, stronger O&D market.
3. No Star representation here, of any kind......SJC at least has LH.......
 
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:48 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
Doesn't WestJet have an agreement with Easyjet? if so then LGW is far from a dead end for their pax.

I have reason to believe, based on info, that KLM intends to expand their metal into the US and perhaps Canada. This could mean assisting DL on some of the hub to AMS routes so I would not be surprised if 1 daily at BOS/MSP/DTW go to KLM metal.

I hope and expect to see EI: DTW-DUB (if they picked CLE over DTW that would just be ridiculous)
and DY DTW-LGW or perhaps DTW-BCN, I even thought Level for BCN, but with DY expansion there, perhaps them.
Also expecting TK to launch DTW-Istanbul. From what I have been hearing they are now the front runner for the long awaited Mid east route, with QR second.

Lastly I do expect 1 more carrier winter season for RSW, was thinking BA or an affiliate would fit right, although id rather have someone else, the need is there.


FI picked CLE over DTW and it’s already expanded to year-round now. Not that ridiculous.



Alright, i'll give you that, it seemed ridiculous to me, and now its extremely surprising to me. I do not think another carrier to Europe would have such luck, or whatever it is that has caused FI to choose and then expand CLE


You really think a multi-million dollar business would choose new destinations hoping for pure luck? ;)

I know some members of the route development team at FI and trust me, when a destination works for them, it's not luck. They are fairly conservative at adding new routes ,sometimes too conservative IMO, and I can assure you they're not just throwing darts at a map. The only "failed" additions in the last 10 years was a seasonal KEF-LED in 2013 and the ABZ/BHD flights on the NY Q400s. I'd argue BHX wasn't a failed route since the route operated for 5 years but was pulled due to increased competition in the UK-Iceland market. It's no co-incidence that relatively left-field adds like ANC, YEG, DEN, PDX, MCI, TPA and CLE have all ranged from moderate success stories to complete home runs.

The fact of the matter is that DTW has a robust TATL offering relative to its market size. Could FI fill a plane out of there? Sure, but not at the yields it looks for because they know DL is the 800 lb gorilla there. Same reason why they don't serve ATL yet (I'd see them add ATL before Detroit though). While not a full service carrier, I'd argue FI's business model is closer to legacy airlines such as the US3 than LCCs like WOW so they don't want to go into markets and sell absolute rock-bottom fares.
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Midwestindy
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:03 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:

FI picked CLE over DTW and it’s already expanded to year-round now. Not that ridiculous.



Alright, i'll give you that, it seemed ridiculous to me, and now its extremely surprising to me. I do not think another carrier to Europe would have such luck, or whatever it is that has caused FI to choose and then expand CLE


You really think a multi-million dollar business would choose new destinations hoping for pure luck? ;)

I know some members of the route development team at FI and trust me, when a destination works for them, it's not luck. They are fairly conservative at adding new routes ,sometimes too conservative IMO, and I can assure you they're not just throwing darts at a map. The only "failed" additions in the last 10 years was a seasonal KEF-LED in 2013 and the ABZ/BHD flights on the NY Q400s. I'd argue BHX wasn't a failed route since the route operated for 5 years but was pulled due to increased competition in the UK-Iceland market. It's no co-incidence that relatively left-field adds like ANC, YEG, DEN, PDX, MCI, TPA and CLE have all ranged from moderate success stories to complete home runs.

The fact of the matter is that DTW has a robust TATL offering relative to its market size. Could FI fill a plane out of there? Sure, but not at the yields it looks for because they know DL is the 800 lb gorilla there. Same reason why they don't serve ATL yet (I'd see them add ATL before Detroit though). While not a full service carrier, I'd argue FI's business model is closer to legacy airlines such as the US3 than LCCs like WOW so they don't want to go into markets and sell absolute rock-bottom fares.


CLE was announced as year-round by FI, it hasn't expanded the service at all
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:06 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:


Alright, i'll give you that, it seemed ridiculous to me, and now its extremely surprising to me. I do not think another carrier to Europe would have such luck, or whatever it is that has caused FI to choose and then expand CLE


You really think a multi-million dollar business would choose new destinations hoping for pure luck? ;)

I know some members of the route development team at FI and trust me, when a destination works for them, it's not luck. They are fairly conservative at adding new routes ,sometimes too conservative IMO, and I can assure you they're not just throwing darts at a map. The only "failed" additions in the last 10 years was a seasonal KEF-LED in 2013 and the ABZ/BHD flights on the NY Q400s. I'd argue BHX wasn't a failed route since the route operated for 5 years but was pulled due to increased competition in the UK-Iceland market. It's no co-incidence that relatively left-field adds like ANC, YEG, DEN, PDX, MCI, TPA and CLE have all ranged from moderate success stories to complete home runs.

The fact of the matter is that DTW has a robust TATL offering relative to its market size. Could FI fill a plane out of there? Sure, but not at the yields it looks for because they know DL is the 800 lb gorilla there. Same reason why they don't serve ATL yet (I'd see them add ATL before Detroit though). While not a full service carrier, I'd argue FI's business model is closer to legacy airlines such as the US3 than LCCs like WOW so they don't want to go into markets and sell absolute rock-bottom fares.


CLE was announced as year-round by FI, it hasn't expanded the service at all


Actually it wasn't, they only extended it last month: https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... le_be.html

They originally just announced they'd be starting in May 2018. Usually, that means the route is seasonal (ala DFW and MCI) and I think that was the original plan for CLE as well. But very strong bookings clearly changed their minds.
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:21 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:

You really think a multi-million dollar business would choose new destinations hoping for pure luck? ;)

I know some members of the route development team at FI and trust me, when a destination works for them, it's not luck. They are fairly conservative at adding new routes ,sometimes too conservative IMO, and I can assure you they're not just throwing darts at a map. The only "failed" additions in the last 10 years was a seasonal KEF-LED in 2013 and the ABZ/BHD flights on the NY Q400s. I'd argue BHX wasn't a failed route since the route operated for 5 years but was pulled due to increased competition in the UK-Iceland market. It's no co-incidence that relatively left-field adds like ANC, YEG, DEN, PDX, MCI, TPA and CLE have all ranged from moderate success stories to complete home runs.

The fact of the matter is that DTW has a robust TATL offering relative to its market size. Could FI fill a plane out of there? Sure, but not at the yields it looks for because they know DL is the 800 lb gorilla there. Same reason why they don't serve ATL yet (I'd see them add ATL before Detroit though). While not a full service carrier, I'd argue FI's business model is closer to legacy airlines such as the US3 than LCCs like WOW so they don't want to go into markets and sell absolute rock-bottom fares.


CLE was announced as year-round by FI, it hasn't expanded the service at all


Actually it wasn't, they only extended it last month: https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... le_be.html

They originally just announced they'd be starting in May 2018. Usually, that means the route is seasonal (ala DFW and MCI) and I think that was the original plan for CLE as well. But very strong bookings clearly changed their minds.


Here is the difference
No MCI initially was always published as seasonal from the get go: http://www.flykci.com/newsroom/news-rel ... nd-europe/
1/9/2018-Icelandair announced today seasonal transatlantic air service to Europe with new nonstop flights between Kansas City and Iceland

"Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) announced today 4 times weekly service from Icelandair to Reykjavik, Iceland starting in May 2018."
http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-lan ... ce-iceland

"Icelandair will serve DFW to KEF four times per week with a Boeing 757-200 aircraft."
https://www.icelandair.com/blog/iceland ... rnational/

Both CLE and DFW are listed as year-round, just because a route isn't in the schedule yet doesn't mean it wasn't supposed to fly during that time. Also, no where in that news release does it say FI decided to make CLE-KEF year-round all it says is FI extended its schedule. The piece was meant to highlight FI, and the fact that WOW air was cancelling winter service
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axiom
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:21 pm

Speaking of FI, they announced TPA-KEF as twice weekly, seasonal (ten months, skipping August/September, if I recall). They've since announced going to four/w from Sept 18 onward -- any idea if they are planning to be year round?
 
FLYKTPA
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:26 pm

axiom wrote:
Speaking of FI, they announced TPA-KEF as twice weekly, seasonal (ten months, skipping August/September, if I recall). They've since announced going to four/w from Sept 18 onward -- any idea if they are planning to be year round?


They actually suspended the flight in early June and it resumes early September, going 4x weekly closer to October.

Imo if MCO is sticking to seasonal service so will TPA.
Huge fan of Tampa International Airport
 
axiom
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:24 pm

FLYKTPA wrote:
axiom wrote:
Speaking of FI, they announced TPA-KEF as twice weekly, seasonal (ten months, skipping August/September, if I recall). They've since announced going to four/w from Sept 18 onward -- any idea if they are planning to be year round?


They actually suspended the flight in early June and it resumes early September, going 4x weekly closer to October.

Imo if MCO is sticking to seasonal service so will TPA.


It makes sense that they'd use peak summer capacity elsewhere -- not Florida's strongest travel period, and for good reason.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:31 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

CLE was announced as year-round by FI, it hasn't expanded the service at all


Actually it wasn't, they only extended it last month: https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... le_be.html

They originally just announced they'd be starting in May 2018. Usually, that means the route is seasonal (ala DFW and MCI) and I think that was the original plan for CLE as well. But very strong bookings clearly changed their minds.


Here is the difference
No MCI initially was always published as seasonal from the get go: http://www.flykci.com/newsroom/news-rel ... nd-europe/
1/9/2018-Icelandair announced today seasonal transatlantic air service to Europe with new nonstop flights between Kansas City and Iceland

"Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) announced today 4 times weekly service from Icelandair to Reykjavik, Iceland starting in May 2018."
http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-lan ... ce-iceland

"Icelandair will serve DFW to KEF four times per week with a Boeing 757-200 aircraft."
https://www.icelandair.com/blog/iceland ... rnational/

Both CLE and DFW are listed as year-round, just because a route isn't in the schedule yet doesn't mean it wasn't supposed to fly during that time. Also, no where in that news release does it say FI decided to make CLE-KEF year-round all it says is FI extended its schedule. The piece was meant to highlight FI, and the fact that WOW air was cancelling winter service


It seems CLE's status was unclear. Nobody from FI is correcting this article so maybe winter operations were in doubt. Needless to say this isn't the case anymore.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:33 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:

Actually it wasn't, they only extended it last month: https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... le_be.html

They originally just announced they'd be starting in May 2018. Usually, that means the route is seasonal (ala DFW and MCI) and I think that was the original plan for CLE as well. But very strong bookings clearly changed their minds.


Here is the difference
No MCI initially was always published as seasonal from the get go: http://www.flykci.com/newsroom/news-rel ... nd-europe/
1/9/2018-Icelandair announced today seasonal transatlantic air service to Europe with new nonstop flights between Kansas City and Iceland

"Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) announced today 4 times weekly service from Icelandair to Reykjavik, Iceland starting in May 2018."
http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-lan ... ce-iceland

"Icelandair will serve DFW to KEF four times per week with a Boeing 757-200 aircraft."
https://www.icelandair.com/blog/iceland ... rnational/

Both CLE and DFW are listed as year-round, just because a route isn't in the schedule yet doesn't mean it wasn't supposed to fly during that time. Also, no where in that news release does it say FI decided to make CLE-KEF year-round all it says is FI extended its schedule. The piece was meant to highlight FI, and the fact that WOW air was cancelling winter service


It seems CLE's status was unclear. Nobody from FI is correcting this article so maybe winter operations were in doubt. Needless to say this isn't the case anymore.


Yeah my take is that it was a conditional year-round service, if CLE met its marks (which it appears to have done) the year-round service would continue as planned.
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shamrock350
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:36 pm

HTCone wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
Other than that all I can see for MSP now is EI to DUB, but only with an aircraft smaller than a 757 that has the range (A321LR maybe? Is EI ordering those?).


Aer Lingus will lease A321LRs via ALC. First delivery scheduled for May 2019, four to replace the 757s and four more for expansion. MSP could be a good possibility.


They have 12 on order, 4 per year starting next year. 3 for expansion and 1 to replace the only RR 757 in the fleet next year, the P&W 757s will be replaced in 2021.

It's 8 firm officially. The 12 number comes from management at both Aer Lingus and IAG suggesting there is a business case for 12 but those additional frames have yet to confirmed, it is simply an active business case.

The first A321LR is due in Q2 2019 but is rumoured to be delayed by a month or two, three more are due throughout 2019 with the remaining 4 arriving in 2020. There may well be more A330s in the mix too.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Here is the difference
No MCI initially was always published as seasonal from the get go: http://www.flykci.com/newsroom/news-rel ... nd-europe/
1/9/2018-Icelandair announced today seasonal transatlantic air service to Europe with new nonstop flights between Kansas City and Iceland

"Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) announced today 4 times weekly service from Icelandair to Reykjavik, Iceland starting in May 2018."
http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-lan ... ce-iceland

"Icelandair will serve DFW to KEF four times per week with a Boeing 757-200 aircraft."
https://www.icelandair.com/blog/iceland ... rnational/

Both CLE and DFW are listed as year-round, just because a route isn't in the schedule yet doesn't mean it wasn't supposed to fly during that time. Also, no where in that news release does it say FI decided to make CLE-KEF year-round all it says is FI extended its schedule. The piece was meant to highlight FI, and the fact that WOW air was cancelling winter service


It seems CLE's status was unclear. Nobody from FI is correcting this article so maybe winter operations were in doubt. Needless to say this isn't the case anymore.


Yeah my take is that it was a conditional year-round service, if CLE met its marks (which it appears to have done) the year-round service would continue as planned.


You’re right that the original press release didn’t specify it. However, from reliable sources, I know there was an original cutoff date of 27th of October until mid-March 2019. It quickly became apparent that demand was even better than expected so they extended it to year-round, which has also been done to the new SFO route. They’ve also extended BWI and PHL into January 2019 while the routes were originally slated to be summer-seasonal.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
N292UX
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:29 pm

This may be a big dark horse but I think MEM is a market that could possibly sustain a 1-3x weekly TATL service (Maybe Seasonal) on WW or FI with an A321NEO or 737MAX (If they have the legs), if not maybe a 752 with FI. There's a decent tourism market in MEM. I think WW would probably be better suited for the job as I see an LCC succeeding in a market like MEM. Obviously a dark horse, but you never know.
 
cxb744
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:43 pm

I really don’t see CMH-AMS or CDG on DL. That would nicely fill a B757, but DL has pulled all B757 TATL flying this summer and a B767 is way too big.
What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:53 pm

cxb744 wrote:
I really don’t see CMH-AMS or CDG on DL. That would nicely fill a B757, but DL has pulled all B757 TATL flying this summer and a B767 is way too big.


Columbus is actually a very small airport, it only served 7.500.000 passengers last year. In Europe that would rank it inbetween Charleroi and Heraklion, the 64th and 65th busiest airports in Europe. Airports that size usually don't see TATL service. Columbus doesn't, neither do Charleroi and Heraklion.
 
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:02 pm

There really aren't many US cities left that could support mainland Europe Flights, that don't have the now.

STL, CLE, CMH, BDL, SAT come to mind

Dark horses could be MCI, RNO (like the holiday charter that was going to start there a few years ago), SMF, ONT. MEM seems less likely to get it back since it's not a hub anymore.

What's left?
 
ADrum23
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:05 pm

Any word on any new DL TATL announcements?
 
FLYKTPA
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:10 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
Any word on any new DL TATL announcements?

I’m thinking we have to start hearing stuff soon. A few new international routes wouldn’t shock me.
Huge fan of Tampa International Airport
 
maximairways
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:15 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
There really aren't many US cities left that could support mainland Europe Flights, that don't have the now.

STL, CLE, CMH, BDL, SAT come to mind

Dark horses could be MCI, RNO (like the holiday charter that was going to start there a few years ago), SMF, ONT. MEM seems less likely to get it back since it's not a hub anymore.

What's left?


STL, CLE, and BDL already have TATL service.

I would expect BUF, and CMH to be the next two. Since they're in range for narrowbodies.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:27 pm

maximairways wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
There really aren't many US cities left that could support mainland Europe Flights, that don't have the now.

STL, CLE, CMH, BDL, SAT come to mind

Dark horses could be MCI, RNO (like the holiday charter that was going to start there a few years ago), SMF, ONT. MEM seems less likely to get it back since it's not a hub anymore.

What's left?


STL, CLE, and BDL already have TATL service.

I would expect BUF, and CMH to be the next two. Since they're in range for narrowbodies.


I said mainland Europe. What I really meant was non-Iceland. But I did forget about EI at BDL.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:39 pm

N292UX wrote:
This may be a big dark horse but I think MEM is a market that could possibly sustain a 1-3x weekly TATL service (Maybe Seasonal) on WW or FI with an A321NEO or 737MAX (If they have the legs), if not maybe a 752 with FI. There's a decent tourism market in MEM. I think WW would probably be better suited for the job as I see an LCC succeeding in a market like MEM. Obviously a dark horse, but you never know.


Memphis has over 2 million international tourist a year. Canada, the UK, other Europe, Australians, Japanese and Brazilians are on top of the list. This Anna Aero chart shows that Memphis has around a 120 PDEW on TATL flights
https://www.anna.aero/2017/09/13/kansas ... om-europe/

Out of the markets ahead of Memphis (Columbus and
Jacksonville) feel Memphis has more potential to be stimulated via direct flights due to it's music and food scene. People from 20 interational countries visited for May in May this year. USA Today ranked it #1 for top things in the world to do in May. The continued growth of river cruising contines to bring in more tourist. Memphis is upgrading it's airport terminal and convention center. Members of New York's Tisch family, owner of Lowes Hotels and NY Giants have announced plans for a new 600 room Lowes and office tower downtown. St. Jude is pulling permits for major expansions, all told in a bout a year from now liddle ol'Mimfus is looking at billions in new investment being underway.

So yeah, a 3x weekly summer service could be a dark horse hit. I don't think it could be sustained year round, though there could be some freight opportunity to do so. It need to be the right plane and the right network. I thinkone of those A321LRs for Aer Lingus via Dublin or Norwegain via Gatwick would be grand.
 
eaa3
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:47 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:

It seems CLE's status was unclear. Nobody from FI is correcting this article so maybe winter operations were in doubt. Needless to say this isn't the case anymore.


Yeah my take is that it was a conditional year-round service, if CLE met its marks (which it appears to have done) the year-round service would continue as planned.


You’re right that the original press release didn’t specify it. However, from reliable sources, I know there was an original cutoff date of 27th of October until mid-March 2019. It quickly became apparent that demand was even better than expected so they extended it to year-round, which has also been done to the new SFO route. They’ve also extended BWI and PHL into January 2019 while the routes were originally slated to be summer-seasonal.



You’re wrong buddy. It was announced as a year-round destination from the beginning. Icelandair automatically always maintains 350 days of schedule for sale. When a flight is announced as year-round a 350 day schedule will be put in and maintained as time passes.

There was no change to the schedule last week or the week before. Cleveland winter schedule was neither confirmed nor added. Check the post that goes over schedule changes week to week that appears on airliners. Icelandair didn’t put up the winter schedule or confirm anything specific. It was just a press release from the airport, not from Icelandair.

Source: https://www.mbl.is/vidskipti/frettir/20 ... cleveland/
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:55 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
cxb744 wrote:
I really don’t see CMH-AMS or CDG on DL. That would nicely fill a B757, but DL has pulled all B757 TATL flying this summer and a B767 is way too big.


Columbus is actually a very small airport, it only served 7.500.000 passengers last year. In Europe that would rank it inbetween Charleroi and Heraklion, the 64th and 65th busiest airports in Europe. Airports that size usually don't see TATL service. Columbus doesn't, neither do Charleroi and Heraklion.


I’ll bite, It’s really hard to compare passenger numbers at US vs European airports. Most US airports don’t have the kind of ULCC presence that European airports do, which inflate the EU passenger counts (lower fares=more passengers). For example let’s compare Naples, Italy vs. Indianapolis, IN my home airport. IND has an average income 2x-3x higher than Naples, the GDP of IND is over 3x higher, however IND and Naples have the same passenger count because of the ULCC presence.
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jumpjets
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:26 am

Midwestindy wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
[quote

I’ll bite, It’s really hard to compare passenger numbers at US vs European airports. Most US airports don’t have the kind of ULCC presence that European airports do, which inflate the EU passenger counts (lower fares=more passengers). For example let’s compare Naples, Italy vs. Indianapolis, IN my home airport. IND has an average income 2x-3x higher than Naples, the GDP of IND is over 3x higher, however IND and Naples have the same passenger count because of the ULCC presence.


I wouldn't want to undermine the cultural heritage of IND and the surrounding area, but NAP is the gateway airport for some of the most important cultural and tourist destinations in Italy - Pompeii, Herculaneum, Mount Vesuvius and the Amalfi coast just to name a few. I rather feel that this is just as likely [if not more likely] to be a reason why NAP attracts way more travelers per capita than IND than the presence of LCCs at Naples Airport.

Having said that I accept your premise that LCCs generate business that wouldn't exist without the low fares they offer - maybe its just that your choice of airports to illustrate the point was a bit wide of the mark.
Last edited by jumpjets on Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:52 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
There really aren't many US cities left that could support mainland Europe Flights, that don't have the now.

STL, CLE, CMH, BDL, SAT come to mind

Dark horses could be MCI, RNO (like the holiday charter that was going to start there a few years ago), SMF, ONT. MEM seems less likely to get it back since it's not a hub anymore.

What's left?

HNL.

Wouldn't be shocked to see HA eventually use its 787s for a Euro nonstop: they could easily make the range... whether there's a profit is anyone's guess.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:17 pm

eaa3 wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Yeah my take is that it was a conditional year-round service, if CLE met its marks (which it appears to have done) the year-round service would continue as planned.


You’re right that the original press release didn’t specify it. However, from reliable sources, I know there was an original cutoff date of 27th of October until mid-March 2019. It quickly became apparent that demand was even better than expected so they extended it to year-round, which has also been done to the new SFO route. They’ve also extended BWI and PHL into January 2019 while the routes were originally slated to be summer-seasonal.



You’re wrong buddy. It was announced as a year-round destination from the beginning. Icelandair automatically always maintains 350 days of schedule for sale. When a flight is announced as year-round a 350 day schedule will be put in and maintained as time passes.

There was no change to the schedule last week or the week before. Cleveland winter schedule was neither confirmed nor added. Check the post that goes over schedule changes week to week that appears on airliners. Icelandair didn’t put up the winter schedule or confirm anything specific. It was just a press release from the airport, not from Icelandair.

Source: https://www.mbl.is/vidskipti/frettir/20 ... cleveland/


Oops, you're correct. I was mixing it with the other extensions this winter (BWI, PHL etc). Sorry! :)
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
TR
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:54 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
PavlovsDog wrote:
I believe LON is the largest European destination for Portlanders. I feel like the PDX - Europe market is large enough for two full service, network carries. The business market from Portland to Europe is probably the primary opportunity for BA. Sure DL to LHR is a full-service carrier but they don't fly daily and have limited connections at either end. BA can offer so many destinations from LHR that would be very appealing to a lot of travelers. The other two competitors to Europe are Icelandair and Condor. I would classify both as economy focussed airlines. Neither have a good business class nor premium economy.

One of the problems with long-haul PDX service is that SEA is just a 2.5 to 3 hour drive away. And even at that, AS/QX has hopper flights from PDX to SEA making for a very easy one-stop connection opportunity. If BA started PDX-LHR, one of their two SEA-LHR flights would probably have to get axed in order for it to work, which isn't likely to happen because SEA is a larger market anyway...

I also heard that BA's new LHR-PIT flight was started due to financial incentives from the airport authorities, so I bet that PDX would have to put up a lot of money on the table in order to recruit them.


First, the drive between Portland and Seattle is more like 4-5 hours during rush hour or on Sunday afternoons.

I always think this is a fallacy. I for one sure don’t want to drive 4 hours to catch a flight. I want to fly out of the airport near me.

I don’t know how many people in Portland want to or will drive to SEA for a BA flight.


Simply won’t happen. High yield demand is not there and can’t see BA operating from LGW as PDX is nor a high demand leisure destination. And to see PDX throw a lot of money on the table thereby challinging DL relations does not make any sense to me
 
panamair
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:09 pm

cxb744 wrote:
That would nicely fill a B757, but DL has pulled all B757 TATL flying this summer and a B767 is way too big.


Huh? DL’s 757s (both the international and domestic versions) are still flying TATL this summer (and into the future):

International version:
JFK-AGP
JFK-EDI
JFK-GLA
JFK-LIS
JFK-DKR
BOS-DUB

Domestic version:
JFK-SNN
JFK-KEF
JFK-PDL
MSP-KEF
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:26 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
maximairways wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
There really aren't many US cities left that could support mainland Europe Flights, that don't have the now.

STL, CLE, CMH, BDL, SAT come to mind

Dark horses could be MCI, RNO (like the holiday charter that was going to start there a few years ago), SMF, ONT. MEM seems less likely to get it back since it's not a hub anymore.

What's left?


STL, CLE, and BDL already have TATL service.

I would expect BUF, and CMH to be the next two. Since they're in range for narrowbodies.


I said mainland Europe. What I really meant was non-Iceland. But I did forget about EI at BDL.


Thread is about TATL flighs not “mainland Europe” or whatever your category is. Easiest to sort in this way.
 
klm617
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:39 am

EI DTW-DUB
DL DTW-DUB/MAN
DY DTW-LGW/DUB
DE DTW-FRA
KL DTW-AMS
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:57 am

Finnair returns to LAX with a new 3x weekly A350 service. The route will be operated as of March 31, 2019 until the end of summer season. Additionally, AY added a fourth weekly flight to SFO, and both ORD and SFO will begin in early April, instead of May.
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC | AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO | A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 788
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klm617
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:19 pm

CLE-LGW DY replacing WW CLE-KEF
CMH-KEF/LGW WW/FI/DY
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
DeltaRules
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:02 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
cxb744 wrote:
I really don’t see CMH-AMS or CDG on DL. That would nicely fill a B757, but DL has pulled all B757 TATL flying this summer and a B767 is way too big.


Columbus is actually a very small airport, it only served 7.500.000 passengers last year. In Europe that would rank it inbetween Charleroi and Heraklion, the 64th and 65th busiest airports in Europe. Airports that size usually don't see TATL service. Columbus doesn't, neither do Charleroi and Heraklion.


I’ll bite, It’s really hard to compare passenger numbers at US vs European airports. Most US airports don’t have the kind of ULCC presence that European airports do, which inflate the EU passenger counts (lower fares=more passengers). For example let’s compare Naples, Italy vs. Indianapolis, IN my home airport. IND has an average income 2x-3x higher than Naples, the GDP of IND is over 3x higher, however IND and Naples have the same passenger count because of the ULCC presence.


Those numbers are closer to 7.75-7.8M. For those who don't know (I know Midwestindy does), Columbus is split between two airports, CMH and LCK. It's not a massive number, but G4 does a decent-sized business at LCK and carried ~260,000 passengers there alone in 2017.

klm617 wrote:
CLE-LGW DY replacing WW CLE-KEF
CMH-KEF/LGW WW/FI/DY


Did WW drop CLE-KEF? I know there's been some cloudiness as to CVG-KEF continuing (or at least, at one point recently, it didn't show on a schedule beyond a certain point).
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
greenair727
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:56 pm

No, WW did not drop CLE. Its service on CLE-KEF is seasonal, so it "dropped" it for the winter. It is expected to return in the Spring. Not sure if Spring has been loaded yet. None the less, CLE still has unserved demand, so I would expect someone to step forth soon: DY, DL, LH, EI, BA...
 
GSP psgr
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Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:46 pm

I have to guess that the odds of LH starting PHL-MUC next year just shot way up after AA announced they're moving the route to Charlotte.
 
Midwest2K
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:14 pm

Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:23 pm

klm617 wrote:
EI DTW-DUB
DL DTW-DUB/MAN
DY DTW-LGW/DUB
DE DTW-FRA
KL DTW-AMS


Source or wish list? Is there demand for 3 carriers on FRA-DTW?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25656
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:40 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
I have to guess that the odds of LH starting PHL-MUC next year just shot way up after AA announced they're moving the route to Charlotte.


Why? It's not a major market. I highly doubt that ever launches. PHL-FRA has historically not been the best for them; even saw their low-cost "Jump" service for a bit.
a.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 627
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: TATL Announcements for 2019

Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:44 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
I have to guess that the odds of LH starting PHL-MUC next year just shot way up after AA announced they're moving the route to Charlotte.


Why? It's not a major market. I highly doubt that ever launches. PHL-FRA has historically not been the best for them; even saw their low-cost "Jump" service for a bit.


I was thinking of it as a summer seasonal in addition to the daily 340 they've been running on PHL-FRA, which has been shored up even further by AA's departure on that route.

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