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flybynight
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Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:08 pm

Maybe it is because I am tall at almost 6 feet 3 inches, but the trend to shrink seating pitch and width of the seats continues to make the flying experience less and less pleasurable.

Yes, I want my airline to be profitable, but no I don't want to be uncomfortable flying. I mostly fly Alaska Airlines, which still has reasonable room. WIth my status I can also access emergency rows without extra cost.

With pitch frequently at 29 or 30 inches, I find this unreasonable for adults. At what point does basic comfort and safety come into play? When is it time for regulations to step in?

The worst flying experience I've recently had was on Iberia from Heathrow to Tenerife. That 29 inch pitch meant I was forcing my legs into the seat next to me (which thankfully was my wife). But for 4 hours+ I was uncomfortable. Should the airlines care that little for their passengers?
Heia Norge!
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:30 pm

no, arguably it violates the Airline Deregulation Act. Regulating seat size will in effect set a floor on fares by govt edict.
 
winGl3t
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:33 pm

No.

Each airline is free to choose the space and classes it will offer to its costumer.
Costumers can choose more spacious airlines, seats, or different classes for their convenience.
 
mcsam18
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:38 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
no, arguably it violates the Airline Deregulation Act. Regulating seat size will in effect set a floor on fares by govt edict.


This.

If the government were to regulate and set a minimum seat size, etc. it would give the airliners the ability to immediately raise their fares. If this happened, the story from the airlines would be something along the lines of: "hey, we want to offer lower fares, but with the government regulating the number of seats we can put on a plane, we can't offer you low rates anymore."
 
Antarius
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:40 pm

No.

Arguing for more space and yearning for the regulated days is a very elitist mentality, IMO. Only the well off could fly then. I don't see why we want to return to those days.
Militant Centrist
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ltbewr
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:41 pm

While there are already some minimums set by the numbers and positions of emergency exits, structural limits and other design needs, I do think major countries should set a minimum of seat pitch and width. For safety in emergency evacuations, health (DVT risks), disabilities, comfort, reduce 'air rage' and that people on average are taller and heavier than in the past. I am 5'4" (about 1.6 M) and some seats are tight for me for legroom, access to underseat storage, eating or use the fold down tray, especially if the person sitting in front of me slightly leans their seatback.
Last edited by ltbewr on Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:43 pm

This thread I think a nearly identical one that was started a month or two ago.

Nobody is “forcing” someone tall (if almost 6’3” is considered tall) to sit in a 29”, 30”, or any seat. There are plenty of options available which range anywhere from not flying (free) to economy, economy plus, premium economy, business, first, and all the way up to flying a private jet. As I’ve posted before, choosing the smallest seat and complaining it’s too small is like ordering off the McDonalds dollar menu and complaining the meat is tough and greasy instead of filet mignon. If you want more space just pay for it. If you won’t pay, quit complaining.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:44 pm

The CEOs of DL and AA are both 6'3" and think economy seating is just fine.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1399797
 
910A
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:45 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Nobody is “forcing” someone tall (if almost 6’3” is considered tall) to sit in a 29”, 30”, or any seat. There are plenty of options available which range anywhere from not flying (free) to economy, economy plus, premium economy, business, first, and all the way up to flying a private jet..


Yes the seat and legroom should be regulate as it's a safety and health issue.

IP, your comment can't be taken seriously. If one traveling on business, it's usually your company travel policy that has the final say where you sit on a plane.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:58 pm

No. Evacuation tests are oerformed. The reality is, some people cannot evacuate. Meh...

Lightsaber
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flyguy89
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:12 pm

No. Beyond ensuring evacuation standard are met, airlines should be free to sell whatever product they want, and consumers should be free to purchase whatever product they want.
 
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neomax
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:23 pm

Yes. 100%.
 
bigjku
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:25 pm

910A wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
Nobody is “forcing” someone tall (if almost 6’3” is considered tall) to sit in a 29”, 30”, or any seat. There are plenty of options available which range anywhere from not flying (free) to economy, economy plus, premium economy, business, first, and all the way up to flying a private jet..


Yes the seat and legroom should be regulate as it's a safety and health issue.

IP, your comment can't be taken seriously. If one traveling on business, it's usually your company travel policy that has the final say where you sit on a plane.


I know of no company that wouldn’t let you pay for an upgrade out of pocket.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:28 pm

They will do eventually, at some point it will get too much and become unfair consumer service.
 
BlatantEcho
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:30 pm

Absolutely not.

Each citizen has the personal responsibility to buy what fits them.

What’s next, regulating minimum shoe sizes?
 
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neomax
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:38 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
They will do eventually, at some point it will get too much and become unfair consumer service.


This.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:39 pm

I kind of like “cramming” myself in Spirit’s aircraft to get a wicked low fare, but not so much in the legacies.
 
PlaneAdmirer
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:48 pm

No. The market made up of consumers and airlines can figure this out better and more efficiently than the government can.

Let government work on a broke postal system, the VA, education, military procurement, military readiness, etc. and get those things right before it expands further into our lives.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:53 pm

No, it shouldn't, absent a clear safety issue. The airlines have fragmented their offerings so much already... If a passenger wants more room, they can pay for it. With the evolution of basic economy, regular economy, premium economy, extra comfort, etc., etc., etc., by whatever name one wants to call them there are relatively low cost options available if one is willing to fork over a few dollars. Personally, unless its a very short flight I choose to fly biz or first because I really value the leg room and service, but that's just me; I have some crippled up legs so the minimal legroom in coach simply isn't for me, generally. I actually have a bank account for fun stuff, meaning trips and airline tickets, that I drop a hundred bucks in every month. Its usually enough for an upgrade with some miles thrown in but that's just my way of dealing with it. My point is if one doesn't like the seat pitch and legroom in coach, there are ways to deal with it.
 
soflaflyer
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:55 pm

No, the government should be involved only to the point of regulating safety. The rest are market forces at work for better or worse depending on your perspective.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:01 pm

BlatantEcho wrote:
Absolutely not.

Each citizen has the personal responsibility to buy what fits them.

What’s next, regulating minimum shoe sizes?
When I am buying an economy ticket, what size seat am I buying? Is that size guaranteed or can the airline swap to a different plane?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:04 pm

Of course, if the government did set a minimum size, I wonder how quickly all the airlines would go down to that minimum. It may not end up being a plus for consumers.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:14 pm

Probably what should be available is the minimum area a customer is provided, plus availability of foot and bag space (or not, if IFE occupies that space). Many of us would pay 20% more, but would expect at least 10% more space. And overhead bin space, realizing that there may not be one such space per seat. Seats without overhead space should be cheaper. Pay for what you want, now it is a crap shoot - pay more and maybe or maybe not a better seat.
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trpmb6
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:19 pm

This might be a good time to remind everyone that CFR 25.562(b) states: "The tests must be conducted with an occupant simulated by a 170-pound anthropomorphic test dummy, as defined by 49 CFR Part 572, Subpart B, or its equivalent, sitting in the normal upright position."

:stirthepot:
 
KentB27
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:20 pm

Not really. The airline should have the ability to sell whatever products they think fit the market conditions. As long as the FAA will certify it then I don't see what the problem is. If we do not like small seats then we either need to stop flying and/or stop being cheap-asses. I'm 6'5" (1.96 meters) and if I have to squeeze into an economy seat it's because I was too much of a tightwad to buy a better seat. That's my problem. Not the airline's. They have better options and I chose not to buy it.

Now, I also understand that many people do not have the means to buy a better seat but keep in mind that if wasn't for the small seats, there wouldn't even be the cheap fares that allow those people to have the means to fly in the first place.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:30 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
The CEOs of DL and AA are both 6'3" and think economy seating is just fine


I’m sure being sloshed helps (at least for one of them...)
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:46 pm

No.

Companies should be free to sell what they want to. Consumers should be able to choose the product that they want.

Yes.

With current load factors, choice is a myth. Seats are time sensitive products and airlines don't have tons of surplus capacity. Consumers will inevitably have to fly whatever's available on the day they want to fly. It doesn't make sense to treat an airline seat like chocolate bars. Or beers.

Furthermore, airlines don't exist in a vacuum. They are licensed to operate by Governments elected by the people. To receive those licenses, they must fulfill certain conditions set by the Government. If the people who elect the government think the conditions need to change, then governments should intervene on their behalf.

Airlines are the only actors that have any day-to-day influence on what transpires. If they anger enough people to force government intervention, they bear responsibility for it.

In any case, we hear that these seats are necessary because people won't pay one cent more. If the cost of providing the service is the issue, then maybe there's another viable approach: place a ceiling on how much airlines can sell the seat for. That way passengers will know they're getting more or less what they paid for.
 
747-600X
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:50 pm

The government should require that airlines conspicuously disclose the space for the class of ticket you buy. So, if you buy an economy ticket on a domestic flight, it should be made "plane" for you to see that, for example, "THE SEATING CLASS YOU HAVE SELECTED OFFERS 29" SEAT PITCH." At first, this information would seem odd since flyers would not have context. In time, though, it, like calorie counts on food and so forth, would come to be meaningful. This allows government to force commercial competitors to disclose what they're selling while still allowing them to sell whatever they please.
 
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ua900
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:57 pm

flybynight wrote:
Maybe it is because I am tall at almost 6 feet 3 inches, but the trend to shrink seating pitch and width of the seats continues to make the flying experience less and less pleasurable.

Yes, I want my airline to be profitable, but no I don't want to be uncomfortable flying. I mostly fly Alaska Airlines, which still has reasonable room. WIth my status I can also access emergency rows without extra cost.

With pitch frequently at 29 or 30 inches, I find this unreasonable for adults. At what point does basic comfort and safety come into play? When is it time for regulations to step in?

The worst flying experience I've recently had was on Iberia from Heathrow to Tenerife. That 29 inch pitch meant I was forcing my legs into the seat next to me (which thankfully was my wife). But for 4 hours+ I was uncomfortable. Should the airlines care that little for their passengers?


Sure, if the world government / UN / ICAO steps in to set global minimum fares that could work :D

For Alaska, here's their extra legroom section: http://www.alaskaair.com/content/travel ... erred-plus
For Iberia, here's their process for buying extra legroom: http://www.iberia.com/us/seat-reservation/

It's good that you get that comped on AS, as a 1K on UA I get that with UA (and a number of *A carriers), and others have their respective carrier of choice. It's all about picking a carrier and seats that you are the most comfortable with and then voting with your wallet. If enough people follow in your footsteps then a new product will be introduced. Basic safety and comfort come into play when people die so that regulators get involved and / or air carriers lose a related lawsuit that ends up costing them more than increasing legroom. That's unlikely to happen anytime soon and lots of passengers still scream for ever cheaper tickets. I would go the safe route and buy up to whatever comfort level you want for yourself and your loved ones.

People wanted the FR's and NK's of the world, and legacies either went under or created their own versions of that lesser economy product. This isn't new. See "Plane and crew by Iberia Express" (in your case) and before that IB had Clickair, the elimination of IB mid-haul business class, BA / LH killing off the decent BMI product. In the US you had "Shuttle by United", "TED", "Song", and all the contractor of a contractor setups on the ground and in the air. Great Lakes Airlines, Mesa Airlines, Go! and the list goes on. I'd wager that 95%+ of these outfits came about because customers weren't willing to pay x dollars to get to Bumpkinville or a leisure market on mainline aircraft. Airlines (and any other market-based company) don't offer products for very long if there isn't a solid demand, and the numbers are saying that there's definitely a market for ULCCs, LCCs, and lagacies offering basic economy products.
Last edited by ua900 on Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hayzel777
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:59 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
In any case, we hear that these seats are necessary because people won't pay one cent more. If the cost of providing the service is the issue, then maybe there's another viable approach: place a ceiling on how much airlines can sell the seat for. That way passengers will know they're getting more or less what they paid for.

This is a Big no-no according to the airline deregulation act.
 
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keesje
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:04 pm

Yes,

the market dynamics fail & individual uninformed passengers have to be protected against huge airlines with their proffesionals that take advantage here. Regulation is required, like on the highway, in air traffic and on privacy.

Real seat space, width (incl. Armrest, aisle), lavatory rate, luggage space, real pitch, incl seatboxes etc. Should be clear to all. No misinformation, halftruths and perception management.

If it is in compliances with rules, better change those rapidly. Lets do a vote among paying economy class passengers :expressionless:
Last edited by keesje on Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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flybynight
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:13 pm

ua900 wrote:
flybynight wrote:
Maybe it is because I am tall at almost 6 feet 3 inches, but the trend to shrink seating pitch and width of the seats continues to make the flying experience less and less pleasurable.

Yes, I want my airline to be profitable, but no I don't want to be uncomfortable flying. I mostly fly Alaska Airlines, which still has reasonable room. WIth my status I can also access emergency rows without extra cost.

With pitch frequently at 29 or 30 inches, I find this unreasonable for adults. At what point does basic comfort and safety come into play? When is it time for regulations to step in?

The worst flying experience I've recently had was on Iberia from Heathrow to Tenerife. That 29 inch pitch meant I was forcing my legs into the seat next to me (which thankfully was my wife). But for 4 hours+ I was uncomfortable. Should the airlines care that little for their passengers?


Sure, if the world government / UN / ICAO steps in to set global minimum fares that could work :D

For Alaska, here's their extra legroom section: http://www.alaskaair.com/content/travel ... erred-plus
For Iberia, here's their process for buying extra legroom: http://www.iberia.com/us/seat-reservation/

It's good that you get that comped on AS, as a 1K on UA I get that with UA (and a number of *A carriers), and others have their respective carrier of choice. It's all about picking a carrier and seats that you are the most comfortable with and then voting with your wallet. If enough people follow in your footsteps then a new product will be introduced. Basic safety and comfort come into play when people die so that regulators get involved and / or air carriers lose a related lawsuit that ends up costing them more than increasing legroom. That's unlikely to happen anytime soon and lots of passengers still scream for ever cheaper tickets. I would go the safe route and buy up to whatever comfort level you want for yourself and your loved ones.

People wanted the FR's and NK's of the world, and legacies either went under or created their own versions of that lesser economy product. This isn't new. See "Plane and crew by Iberia Express" (in your case) and before that IB had Clickair, the elimination of IB mid-haul business class, BA / LH killing off the decent BMI product. In the US you had "Shuttle by United", "TED", "Song", and all the contractor of a contractor setups on the ground and in the air. Great Lakes Airlines, Mesa Airlines, Go! and the list goes on. I'd wager that 95%+ of these outfits came about because customers weren't willing to pay x dollars to get to Bumpkinville or a leisure market on mainline aircraft. Airlines (and any other market-based company) don't offer products for very long if there isn't a solid demand, and the numbers are saying that there's definitely a market for ULCCs, LCCs, and lagacies offering basic economy products.



I found it actually a little funny that Iberia states - "to improve your in-flight comfort" It is almost like they are admitting to most of the plane is uncomfortable since we are at a 29 inch pitch for most of the seats.



As for government regulation - I am not a fan of the government dicating too much either, but at the same time regulations are common place when it comes to safety and to a certain degree comfort.
Look at the car industry with anything from CAFE standards to airbags.

I am good at finding the best seats on Alaska since I am Gold. That is seldom an issue, plus they are at 31 inch pitch minimum anyway (at least I think they are). Seat Guru helps too. But, I do think an absolute minimum should still be set. Not everyone is under 6 feet tall and while you can regulate your weight, you can't with your height.
Heia Norge!
 
airzona11
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:15 pm

What is the minimum space they would regulate it to? 36inches? None of us would agree on what that number should be.

Seat spaces impact amount of people on a plane, which impacts revenue an airline can make... What if they regulate 31 inches? Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant no longer have viable business models.

keesje wrote:
Yes,

the market dynamics fail & individual uninformed passengers have to be protected against huge airlines with their proffesionals that take advantage here. Regulation is required, like on the highway, in air traffic and on privacy.

Real seat space, width (incl. Armrest, aisle), lavatory rate, luggage space, real pitch, incl seatboxes etc. Should be clear to all. No misinformation, halftruths and perception management.


Air travel is incredibly safe, safer than on the highway. Passengers are not being materially harmed. What are the market dynamics that are failing?
 
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flybynight
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:17 pm

airzona11 wrote:
What is the minimum space they would regulate it to? 36inches? None of us would agree on what that number should be.

Seat spaces impact amount of people on a plane, which impacts revenue an airline can make... What if they regulate 31 inches? Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant no longer have viable business models.

keesje wrote:
Yes,

the market dynamics fail & individual uninformed passengers have to be protected against huge airlines with their proffesionals that take advantage here. Regulation is required, like on the highway, in air traffic and on privacy.

Real seat space, width (incl. Armrest, aisle), lavatory rate, luggage space, real pitch, incl seatboxes etc. Should be clear to all. No misinformation, halftruths and perception management.


Air travel is incredibly safe, safer than on the highway. Passengers are not being materially harmed. What are the market dynamics that are failing?


Common ground would need to be found.


I refuse to believe that Frontier cannot make a profit with planes that have a 31 inch pitch.

Flying is very safe thankfully, but it is also not as comfortable as it was, at least not in coach.
Heia Norge!
 
Planesmart
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:37 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
This might be a good time to remind everyone that CFR 25.562(b) states: "The tests must be conducted with an occupant simulated by a 170-pound anthropomorphic test dummy, as defined by 49 CFR Part 572, Subpart B, or its equivalent, sitting in the normal upright position."

:stirthepot:

That standard dates back to the 80's or even earlier. Height and weight have changed during that period, and the amount of carry on baggage has massively increased too.

Tests are rehearsed and orderly. Participants are not alcohol or drug impaired. There are no children or invalids. No bags are removed or carried. There is no noise. Participants are not filming.

As relevant as A & B using 25 year plus old grandfathering for new aircraft today.

More representative would be test evacuations of mountain lodges in NZ. All shapes and sizes. No rehearsals. Done in the dark with smoke bombs activated. At least one in 8 result in an injury - sprain or worse.
 
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keesje
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:41 pm

Objective, massive, viral transparency on real passenger space.

Prolonged Brand damaging naming and shaming.

That could help. :checkmark:

You have to be anonimous though.

A pack of high paid people will come after you.

Claiming incompleteness, incorrect data, anything.

Buying time, neutralizing, disqualifying, threatening law suits.

Guess who'll behind it.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:47 pm

Planesmart wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
This might be a good time to remind everyone that CFR 25.562(b) states: "The tests must be conducted with an occupant simulated by a 170-pound anthropomorphic test dummy, as defined by 49 CFR Part 572, Subpart B, or its equivalent, sitting in the normal upright position."

:stirthepot:

That standard dates back to the 80's or even earlier. Height and weight have changed during that period, and the amount of carry on baggage has massively increased too.

Tests are rehearsed and orderly. Participants are not alcohol or drug impaired. There are no children or invalids. No bags are removed or carried. There is no noise. Participants are not filming.

As relevant as A & B using 25 year plus old grandfathering for new aircraft today.

More representative would be test evacuations of mountain lodges in NZ. All shapes and sizes. No rehearsals. Done in the dark with smoke bombs activated. At least one in 8 result in an injury - sprain or worse.


Well this is what the seats and floors are sized for inertial load cases like emergency landing. This CFR has nothing to do with egress.
 
travelsonic
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:51 pm

I honestly think technology may have to be one of the bigger influencers on change - for example, being able to utilize graphene in such a way where we can get seats that are way, way, way thinner, yet as - if not much - stronger than what we have now.
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:52 pm

What I want first is a better, more accurate representation of control data when conducting safety and evacuation tests. A lot of these standards were created over 50 years ago when the average population was much different than today. (Larger and heavier bags and passengers)

If these new tests dictate a requirement to change the seats, rows, exists...etc then I would say a resounding yes.

Otherwise, no. However part of me wants to say yes because there has to be a breaking point. I don't believe in the "choose something else" approach because lets be real, there aren't many options especially when all major airlines seem to copy each other.
 
N353SK
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:52 pm

910A wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
Nobody is “forcing” someone tall (if almost 6’3” is considered tall) to sit in a 29”, 30”, or any seat. There are plenty of options available which range anywhere from not flying (free) to economy, economy plus, premium economy, business, first, and all the way up to flying a private jet..


Yes the seat and legroom should be regulate as it's a safety and health issue.

IP, your comment can't be taken seriously. If one traveling on business, it's usually your company travel policy that has the final say where you sit on a plane.


My brother’s company started offering employees Volvos as company cars because they felt the Chevy Malibus they had been offering made them less competitive in the employment market. If an employee group wants better travel arrangements they are welcome to negotiate with their company to accomplish it.
 
airzona11
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Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:20 pm

flybynight wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
What is the minimum space they would regulate it to? 36inches? None of us would agree on what that number should be.

Seat spaces impact amount of people on a plane, which impacts revenue an airline can make... What if they regulate 31 inches? Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant no longer have viable business models.

keesje wrote:
Yes,

the market dynamics fail & individual uninformed passengers have to be protected against huge airlines with their proffesionals that take advantage here. Regulation is required, like on the highway, in air traffic and on privacy.

Real seat space, width (incl. Armrest, aisle), lavatory rate, luggage space, real pitch, incl seatboxes etc. Should be clear to all. No misinformation, halftruths and perception management.


Air travel is incredibly safe, safer than on the highway. Passengers are not being materially harmed. What are the market dynamics that are failing?


Common ground would need to be found.


I refuse to believe that Frontier cannot make a profit with planes that have a 31 inch pitch.

Flying is very safe thankfully, but it is also not as comfortable as it was, at least not in coach.


You believing their business model or not, that is what they do. The situation or outcome you are looking for exists today. If you have to fly, either pay for more room if the standard doesn't work, or for a few hours endure less than luxurious, but still safe transport. No airline has sacrificed safety (per the governing bodies) and until they do, there is no reason to regulate something like seat pitch. I am not saying comfort in Y class has improved, but comfort is not thing that government should regulate.
 
soflaflyer
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:35 pm

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:21 pm

747-600X wrote:
The government should require that airlines conspicuously disclose the space for the class of ticket you buy. So, if you buy an economy ticket on a domestic flight, it should be made "plane" for you to see that, for example, "THE SEATING CLASS YOU HAVE SELECTED OFFERS 29" SEAT PITCH." At first, this information would seem odd since flyers would not have context. In time, though, it, like calorie counts on food and so forth, would come to be meaningful. This allows government to force commercial competitors to disclose what they're selling while still allowing them to sell whatever they please.


The airlines' website fleet page and SeatGuru.com are your friends and I am sure there are many other sources.
I think many will agree that we have way too many disclaimers in advertising as it is, the small type on documents, the speed readers on car commercials. On drug commercials half of the advertisement is disclaimers about how most drugs are worse for you than the illness. :shock:
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4918
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:27 pm

No, but they should regulate that the product is clearly advertised, so the consumers can take informed decisions.
 
OSL777FLYER
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:11 am

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:32 pm

There should be some regulating, at least on long-haul flights. I am 6 ft 7 in. so you could only imagine.

Fortunately though I am able to travel in Premium Economy or get an emergency exit. Either by asking nicely or simply paying for it.

Airlines do cram more seats in their aircraft though. No surprise there. They will also not listen to consumers because, let's face it, as long as the flights are cheap, people will put up with pretty much everything.

However, newer seats, (slimline) due to their design are better. 30.inches used to be horrible, but in the new seats you can compare them to the old 31-32 inches. Still though, due to lack of padding, these seats are not comfortable for a long haul flight.

On the old seats there have been times when I literally could not fit into the seats because of the tight pitch.

If an airline states 29. inches, I'll personally stay away.

The issue of pitch does come down to a safety issue in the end though. In the case of an evacuation what then?.

Lastly, there has not been much talk lately of cases of DVT because of tight seating.
 
d8s
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:58 pm

Nobody is “forcing” someone tall (if almost 6’3” is considered tall) to sit in a 29”, 30”, or any seat. There are plenty of options available which range anywhere from not flying (free) to economy, economy plus, premium economy, business, first, and all the way up to flying a private jet. As I’ve posted before, choosing the smallest seat and complaining it’s too small is like ordering off the McDonalds dollar menu and complaining the meat is tough and greasy instead of filet mignon. If you want more space just pay for it. If you won’t pay, quit complaining.[/quote]

Amen! I am 6'2" and pay for E+ or even F for two reasons...1) it provides my the space to stretch out without having to have my knees to my chest, 2) I don't have to deal with the whiny people (much like on this website) who have to bitch and piss and moan about everything from the food to the seat to the size of the lav. The airlines are in the business to make profit, and get you from point A to point B. If you don't like it...stay home and live in your parents basement.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:59 pm

flybynight wrote:
Maybe it is because I am tall at almost 6 feet 3 inches, but the trend to shrink seating pitch and width of the seats continues to make the flying experience less and less pleasurable.

Yes, I want my airline to be profitable, but no I don't want to be uncomfortable flying. I mostly fly Alaska Airlines, which still has reasonable room. WIth my status I can also access emergency rows without extra cost.

With pitch frequently at 29 or 30 inches, I find this unreasonable for adults. At what point does basic comfort and safety come into play? When is it time for regulations to step in?

The worst flying experience I've recently had was on Iberia from Heathrow to Tenerife. That 29 inch pitch meant I was forcing my legs into the seat next to me (which thankfully was my wife). But for 4 hours+ I was uncomfortable. Should the airlines care that little for their passengers?

Govt should regulate only if it affects safety in any way. Othwerwise...the best way is for consumers to vote with their wallet.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2206
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:06 pm

747-600X wrote:
The government should require that airlines conspicuously disclose the space for the class of ticket you buy. So, if you buy an economy ticket on a domestic flight, it should be made "plane" for you to see that, for example, "THE SEATING CLASS YOU HAVE SELECTED OFFERS 29" SEAT PITCH." At first, this information would seem odd since flyers would not have context. In time, though, it, like calorie counts on food and so forth, would come to be meaningful. This allows government to force commercial competitors to disclose what they're selling while still allowing them to sell whatever they please.


What is one expected to do if all the "better" options are sold out? Not travel? This approach works great for retirees who book tickets six months out. It won't be of much use to anybody with a job, who has to book a couple of weeks out.

The market power is with airlines here. Flying is increasingly becoming an essential service (critical to the economy anyway) and airlines recognize that. Sooner or later, the "good" seats will sell out and you'll probably pay the same amount or more for an uncomfortable seat at the back.

Clear advertising won't change that.
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:06 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
They will do eventually, at some point it will get too much and become unfair consumer service.


Except it keeps going the other way and people keep confusing airlines with charities. If people don't want tight seats they need to pay. In the past 15 years the flying public has proven time and time again they care about price over anything else. When the customer starts caring about the product and experience then airlines will start providing it.
 
waly777
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:33 pm

Definitely not.

With the vast segmentation we have in Y on most carriers now, you have the option to pay for a bit more legroom but refuse to. Soo.... you get what you pay for.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2206
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Should the government regulate minimum seating space

Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:34 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
In any case, we hear that these seats are necessary because people won't pay one cent more. If the cost of providing the service is the issue, then maybe there's another viable approach: place a ceiling on how much airlines can sell the seat for. That way passengers will know they're getting more or less what they paid for.

This is a Big no-no according to the airline deregulation act.


Indeed. But laws are changeable. Ultimately it comes down to what society/voters consider to be acceptable or unacceptable. If a critical mass of voters decides to make seat size an issue in this age of populism, anything is possible. As more people fly, more people will have views, after all.

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