Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
goboeing
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:09 pm

wjcandee wrote:
AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform?


No different than all of the passenger carriers around the world conducting OE training with passengers on board.

wjcandee wrote:
no wind. 25 mile visibility.


On the other end of it, the threats:

- Rumored to be first landing
- Could be first landing on the left side of any cockpit for years
- Night landing
- 5AM local time, who knows what the duty day was like and the preceding ~72 hours of work/rest
- The handling qualities of the simulators are never quite like the real airplane and some aren't even close
- Sometimes checkride to the first leg of OE is weeks
 
d8s
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:22 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform? no wind. 25 mile visibility. Bent plane.


New hires are required to do an ocean crossing( usually two) to be signed off. The 767 doesn’t do many, if any, freight North Atlantic flights, so an AMC pax flight is always what they get. The blame isn’t the protocol. The blame rest squarely on the bottom of the barrel being dredged for recruits. If we could retain pilots with decent pay we wouldn’t already be at the point of hiring low time pilots with fresh commercial licenses.


Got it. And I agree with your analysis about hiring. But his very first landing in a 767? Particularly given that a lot of Atlas new hires are coming from airlines that don't even fly a 737, much less a widebody. They didn't give him a few domestic cargo hops before putting him on a live troop flight? I get that this happens all the time at major pax airlines, but, man, if you're AMC, with all the sensitivities they have, still stinging from the Arrow Air debacle decades later, do you think that as the customer they're not going to have anything to say about this? Maybe they blow it off. Bad luck. No reason to assume that the pilot should be able to land in New Hampshire on a clear morning with no wind without breaking the plane. But I would be curious. Certainly, if soldiers were badly injured or killed, the media, Congress, etc., would be completely up AMC's butt about "allowing" this.


You act like this is his first time landing a 767, let alone any plane, period...he is a Captain, not a 50 hour student pilot.
 
User avatar
hongkongflyer
Posts: 818
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:23 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:31 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Flaps wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
To put it simply: they don't.

Not this one anyway. Repair is more than the value of the aircraft.


I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion. The airplane would be worth over $10 Million. Stringers, frames and skin don’t cost that much to replace. As long as the gear is ok, insurance would cover the repairs rather than scrap it.


For of all, frames and skin are not dirt cheap, together with the costs associate with thoughtful structure inspection and the repairing costs (which could take a few months),
the plane may be more valuable as parts then a 767 as a whole.

Those bend 767 which have been repaired were relatively young at the tie of the incident, not the case for this over 20 years 767.
 
N292UX
Posts: 571
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:44 pm

Definitely has happened before. ANA 767 a few years back and at least 1 more. But 763s have so many landings in between incidents it really isn't something anyone should be worrying about...
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:53 pm

N292UX wrote:
Definitely has happened before. ANA 767 a few years back and at least 1 more. But 763s have so many landings in between incidents it really isn't something anyone should be worrying about...


I don’t see a big safety issue from skin wrinkling. It looks like the forward airplane skin is susceptible to damage when the nose gear hits hard. Hard landings can always cause damage. It is just very visible in the 767 with skin damage. There is also the damage under the skin which can’t be seen.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1218
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:00 pm

AA bent one too landing at LHR sometime in the late 90’s/early 2000’s IIRC.
You could see daylight from inside.
Boeing flew it back to the US after some patchwork, but all below 10000ft.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4020
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:05 pm

about half the 3 - 4 month repair time is spent doing a repair analysis (including stripping out the interior in the affected area) an doing the "who pays and how much" negotiations with the airline and insurance. The repair kits are ready to go with all the common stuff and the tools.. last I heard they keep an assortment of ribs and stringers, the skin (if common) will come straight of the line. the current skin may be heavier. If the window band is affected, the plane will probably be rebuild as a cargo since the window band is out of production and long lead. The actual boots on the ground repair will take less than a month on a two shift 24 hr day schedule
 
goboeing
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:28 pm

d8s wrote:
You act like this is his first time landing a 767, let alone any plane, period...he is a Captain, not a 50 hour student pilot.


You've completely missed the point here.

This landing reportedly WAS likely to be the pilot's first landing in a 767. It was OE and there's a very good chance they came off the right seat of the 747-400.

See above where I posted the various threats as well as another poster's comment about lengthy wait times for OE after the simulator.

It's a recipe for a hard landing.
 
Whiplash6
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:34 pm

d8s wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:

New hires are required to do an ocean crossing( usually two) to be signed off. The 767 doesn’t do many, if any, freight North Atlantic flights, so an AMC pax flight is always what they get. The blame isn’t the protocol. The blame rest squarely on the bottom of the barrel being dredged for recruits. If we could retain pilots with decent pay we wouldn’t already be at the point of hiring low time pilots with fresh commercial licenses.


Got it. And I agree with your analysis about hiring. But his very first landing in a 767? Particularly given that a lot of Atlas new hires are coming from airlines that don't even fly a 737, much less a widebody. They didn't give him a few domestic cargo hops before putting him on a live troop flight? I get that this happens all the time at major pax airlines, but, man, if you're AMC, with all the sensitivities they have, still stinging from the Arrow Air debacle decades later, do you think that as the customer they're not going to have anything to say about this? Maybe they blow it off. Bad luck. No reason to assume that the pilot should be able to land in New Hampshire on a clear morning with no wind without breaking the plane. But I would be curious. Certainly, if soldiers were badly injured or killed, the media, Congress, etc., would be completely up AMC's butt about "allowing" this.


You act like this is his first time landing a 767, let alone any plane, period...he is a Captain, not a 50 hour student pilot.


You people need to calm down and quickly. It was already stated that it wasn’t a captain upgrade. FO on OE.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3482
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:33 pm

The captain is a check airmen which means that it was the first officer who was landing and under the supervision of the captain. Please put this non-sense to bed about coming from the 747 etc.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
TheDBCooper
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:08 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:24 pm

I am sure if they are willing to replace rear pressure bulkheads on a 33yr/old 767s, then this aircraft could very well be repaired yet.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4707
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:16 pm

hongkongflyer wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Flaps wrote:
Not this one anyway. Repair is more than the value of the aircraft.


I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion. The airplane would be worth over $10 Million. Stringers, frames and skin don’t cost that much to replace. As long as the gear is ok, insurance would cover the repairs rather than scrap it.


For of all, frames and skin are not dirt cheap, together with the costs associate with thoughtful structure inspection and the repairing costs (which could take a few months),
the plane may be more valuable as parts then a 767 as a whole.

Those bend 767 which have been repaired were relatively young at the tie of the incident, not the case for this over 20 years 767.

And as I mentioned in the 767 subfleet thread, this airframe has about 84,000 hours on it, sort of on the tipping point on whether or not it will be repaired. Passenger 767s are not as valuable as cargo conversions, so that might skew the equation too.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:53 pm

wjcandee wrote:
AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform? no wind. 25 mile visibility. Bent plane.


You realize that *no one* flies around empty airliners for operating experience, yeah?
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:02 pm

777PHX wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform? no wind. 25 mile visibility. Bent plane.


You realize that *no one* flies around empty airliners for operating experience, yeah?


The FAA also doesn’t differentiate between cargo and passengers for pilot requirements as far as I know. The requirements are equivalent. Gaining operating experience after the simulator with passengers on board is a daily occurrence in the United States.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9043
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:30 pm

777PHX wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform? no wind. 25 mile visibility. Bent plane.


You realize that *no one* flies around empty airliners for operating experience, yeah?


Yes I do and yes I did, as actually-reflected in my post(s) before people decided to "correct" me. Plainly my point was far-more-nuanced than all the know-it-all snipers on this site understood, so whatever. I see that the mods have deleted scads of these posts (including some of mine), and I'm appreciative, so that the thread can focus on the real issues.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9043
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Gaining operating experience after the simulator with passengers on board is a daily occurrence in the United States.


"We've always done it that way."
"Everybody does it."

Regardless of the above, if you think the customer (Air Mobility Command) isn't going to be pissed-off about this, I think you're mistaken.
 
danj555
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:16 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:07 pm

No way, that plane is scrapped. its got less than 10 years left in it for sure. Not worth it along with the checks.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3482
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:44 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Gaining operating experience after the simulator with passengers on board is a daily occurrence in the United States.


"We've always done it that way."
"Everybody does it."

Regardless of the above, if you think the customer (Air Mobility Command) isn't going to be pissed-off about this, I think you're mistaken.


AMC is not going to lose their mind over this. You are adding a lot more drama than there needs to be. Hell, World almost crashed a DC-10 in BWI filled with troops, cracked the forward pressure bulkhead, went around, knife-edged it over the terminal, and it had no impact on how their entitlement went. AMC does annual audits on all of the CRAF carriers and no doubt they are satisfied with Atlas' training standards and practices.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
tomaheath
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:02 pm

I’m at PSM now. Seems to be a little activity around it now. Seems to have power lights are on. Couldn’t get to close so I couldn’t see any damage I may come back with binoculars maybe I’ll be able to see something.
 
Whiplash6
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:03 pm

Who knows?
Last edited by Whiplash6 on Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9043
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:05 pm

airtran737 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Gaining operating experience after the simulator with passengers on board is a daily occurrence in the United States.


"We've always done it that way."
"Everybody does it."

Regardless of the above, if you think the customer (Air Mobility Command) isn't going to be pissed-off about this, I think you're mistaken.


AMC is not going to lose their mind over this. You are adding a lot more drama than there needs to be. Hell, World almost crashed a DC-10 in BWI filled with troops, cracked the forward pressure bulkhead, went around, knife-edged it over the terminal, and it had no impact on how their entitlement went. AMC does annual audits on all of the CRAF carriers and no doubt they are satisfied with Atlas' training standards and practices.


It's not intended to be "drama". I think you know that I have followed AMC for more than 25 years, and know well its history and interactions with multiple now-defunct carriers (Arrow, Tower, World, ATA, North American, etc.), at several of which I had friends, as I also think you know. I started to write a longer, polite-and-thoughtful response, then erased it as it isn't worth it. Whatever. Who cares? The heck with it.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:29 pm

nikeherc wrote:
During certification testing, Douglas broke the rear end off of a super 80. The plane was intended for SAS, but they wanted one that hadn’t been bent. Douglas kept it as an R&D frame after it was repaired.


Douglas also broke a DC-8 on a hard landing during a test flight.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3482
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:18 am

wjcandee wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

"We've always done it that way."
"Everybody does it."

Regardless of the above, if you think the customer (Air Mobility Command) isn't going to be pissed-off about this, I think you're mistaken.


AMC is not going to lose their mind over this. You are adding a lot more drama than there needs to be. Hell, World almost crashed a DC-10 in BWI filled with troops, cracked the forward pressure bulkhead, went around, knife-edged it over the terminal, and it had no impact on how their entitlement went. AMC does annual audits on all of the CRAF carriers and no doubt they are satisfied with Atlas' training standards and practices.


It's not intended to be "drama". I think you know that I have followed AMC for more than 25 years, and know well its history and interactions with multiple now-defunct carriers (Arrow, Tower, World, ATA, North American, etc.), at several of which I had friends, as I also think you know. I started to write a longer, polite-and-thoughtful response, then erased it as it isn't worth it. Whatever. Who cares? The heck with it.


I understand where you are coming from. You and I have corresponded via PM over the years and I respect what you’ve done in your career. From my experience at World having taken part in the AMC audits and managing a department, I can say that Atlas will be fine and it’s not jut because of the lack of available lift.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Max Q
Posts: 8507
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:52 am

1989worstyear wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
It came out 10 years before airframe structural design was perfected by the A320-200 in 1988. I'm not surprised the 767 has this flaw.

Curious as to what Airbus did to perfect the design? Is it stronger in some way or just better designed?


Timing actually. OEM's simply hadn't figured out how to make a robust airframe before Q4 1988 due to the lack of computer power and knowhow.

For instance, if you compare a 737ng or A320 with a 757 or DC-8, it's like night and day technology wise. 1988 is the key year!




That’s just completely false



While modern aircraft are more advanced technologically and the process to build
then is highly computerized that doesn’t
mean older aircraft are not as structurally
sound


In fact the opposite is true, older aircraft were built far stronger than they needed to be BECAUSE computerized load analysis wasnt available



They were extremely rugged which is why so many earlier generation aircraft had exceptionally long lives during which some of them stayed intact despite incidents where they were significantly overstressed



I guarantee you there won’t be 35 + year old A320’s flying freight
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
lt1yj
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:57 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:19 am

Max Q wrote:
In fact the opposite is true, older aircraft were built far stronger than they needed to be BECAUSE computerized load analysis wasnt available


An old school ops rep once told me that if a DC8 had his the World Trade Center it would have flown right through it. (Bad humor, but those are built like a tank).
 
goboeing
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:43 am

airtran737 wrote:
The captain is a check airmen which means that it was the first officer who was landing and under the supervision of the captain. Please put this non-sense to bed about coming from the 747 etc.


The point about coming from another airplane is still valid and not nonsense at all.

In fact, it's even more valid since the 747 cockpit sits higher off the ground than anything else, and now the cockpit of the previous aircraft of the pilot flying must be lower and that fits better into the hard landing scenario.

Since OE was apparently being conducted, the new first officer had never before made a landing in the 767 unless they just happened to fly one at another company previously.

Therefore all of the threats previously mentioned did exist. Just replace "747" with "CR-J200" or "F-18" etc. if you feel like that makes more sense.
 
Nicoeddf
Posts: 1064
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:39 am

goboeing wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
The captain is a check airmen which means that it was the first officer who was landing and under the supervision of the captain. Please put this non-sense to bed about coming from the 747 etc.


The point about coming from another airplane is still valid and not nonsense at all.

In fact, it's even more valid since the 747 cockpit sits higher off the ground than anything else, and now the cockpit of the previous aircraft of the pilot flying must be lower and that fits better into the hard landing scenario.

Since OE was apparently being conducted, the new first officer had never before made a landing in the 767 unless they just happened to fly one at another company previously.

Therefore all of the threats previously mentioned did exist. Just replace "747" with "CR-J200" or "F-18" etc. if you feel like that makes more sense.


Fully agree with your assessments about the threat environment. Threats exist and need to be managed.
Hence it's perfectly safe to conduct your first landing with Pax.

Obviously once in a while a hard landing will be the result, but that doesn't differ from the fact that most hard landings are produced by experienced pilots. Flying is not a science, but a craftsmanship. Shit happens once in a while.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:30 pm

Call me naive, but if the plane is on a stable approach at the proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations, the plane won’t land on the nose gear and do damage like this. Any one of those could be off and result in this. Some of those are within the pilots control and others aren’t. It could be bad weather reports. It could be inaccurate weight calculations.

I trust Atlas has a capable flight operations team and chief pilot to discover what happened. DFDR data will help. A new pilot incorrectly inputting data in an FMC that he is unfamiliar with could cause this. An unstable approach since he is not familiar with the plane could be a factor.

I remember a story of a new first officer transitioning from a twin jet to a tri jet. Everything went very through the entire flight on his first time flying the plane as he was being incredibly careful until one big mistake happened. His brain was on autopilot mode and he grabbed two thrust reverser levers like his brain and hands were used too without looking. In his mind he was feeling comfortable once the airplane hit the ground and went back on his old habits. Before the captain could stop him he deployed only two of three thrust reversers. I think I remember the report saying he had three seconds to notice and correct the mistake. They kept it on the runway, but had to do it with differential braking. That overheat event caused almost a $ 1 Million in damage to the gear since one of the brakes overheated and thermalled the tires. The point of the story is that mistakes do happen in a matter of seconds and it is an important lesson for every pilot.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:46 pm

Weather should not have been a significant factor in this accident, but surely the crew was tired at this hour after a crossing, and I'm confident that after a long night of IOE instruction the F/O was whipped. The bulk of this accident will fall on the LCP shoulders for not acting in a timely manner. Level C & D sims are really good but there is nothing that replaces the real airplane for those first few landing. Having said that there are hundreds of 1st landings every week in todays airline industry without incident.

Metars:
KPSM 271056Z 00000KT 10SM FEW070 FEW250 21/20 A2995 RMK AO2A SLP144 T02070197=
KPSM 270956Z 00000KT 10SM FEW070 FEW250 19/19 A2993 RMK AO2A SLP137 T01910189=
KPSM 270856Z 00000KT 10SM FEW070 FEW250 19/19 A2992 RMK AO2A SLP134 T01920189 50004=
KPSM 270756Z 00000KT 10SM FEW060 FEW250 20/19 A2991 RMK AO2A SLP130 T02030189=
KPSM 270656Z 27003KT 10SM CLR 21/19 A2991 RMK AO2A SLP132 T02070192=
KPSM 270556Z 23004KT 10SM CLR 21/20 A2991 RMK AO2A SLP132 T02140198 10239 20210 50007=
KPSM 270456Z 25004KT 10SM CLR 22/21 A2989 RMK AO2A SLP125 T02160212 402680216=
 
Whiplash6
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:08 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Call me naive, but if the plane is on a stable approach at the proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations, the plane won’t land on the nose gear and do damage like this. Any one of those could be off and result in this. Some of those are within the pilots control and others aren’t. It could be bad weather reports. It could be inaccurate weight calculations.

I trust Atlas has a capable flight operations team and chief pilot to discover what happened. DFDR data will help. A new pilot incorrectly inputting data in an FMC that he is unfamiliar with could cause this. An unstable approach since he is not familiar with the plane could be a factor.

I remember a story of a new first officer transitioning from a twin jet to a tri jet. Everything went very through the entire flight on his first time flying the plane as he was being incredibly careful until one big mistake happened. His brain was on autopilot mode and he grabbed two thrust reverser levers like his brain and hands were used too without looking. In his mind he was feeling comfortable once the airplane hit the ground and went back on his old habits. Before the captain could stop him he deployed only two of three thrust reversers. I think I remember the report saying he had three seconds to notice and correct the mistake. They kept it on the runway, but had to do it with differential braking. That overheat event caused almost a $ 1 Million in damage to the gear since one of the brakes overheated and thermalled the tires. The point of the story is that mistakes do happen in a matter of seconds and it is an important lesson for every pilot.

I won’t call you naive but hard landings happen even with the “proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations”. If you don’t flare correctly you can have a hard landing. If you bounce on the mains and porpoise on the nose you can also crease the fuselage and send interior parts of the aircraft fleeing from their mounts i.e. ANA
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:42 pm

BravoOne wrote:
This thread clearly demonstrates the lack of airline IOE/qualification ops that one would find on the internet. The guidelines are clearly set in place by both the FAA and the respective operator. Worse landings than this have occurred with experienced crews. FedEx at NRT comes to mind.


Thank you. This thread, like many others on this board, do demonstrate a lack of knowledge with the subject.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to express it - even beat their chests about it - but that doesn't make it accurate or worthwhile.

You wrote, "Worse landings than this have occurred with experienced crews. FedEx at NRT comes to mind." That exact same accident came to my mind, too.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:02 pm

Whiplash6 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Call me naive, but if the plane is on a stable approach at the proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations, the plane won’t land on the nose gear and do damage like this. Any one of those could be off and result in this. Some of those are within the pilots control and others aren’t. It could be bad weather reports. It could be inaccurate weight calculations.

I trust Atlas has a capable flight operations team and chief pilot to discover what happened. DFDR data will help. A new pilot incorrectly inputting data in an FMC that he is unfamiliar with could cause this. An unstable approach since he is not familiar with the plane could be a factor.

I remember a story of a new first officer transitioning from a twin jet to a tri jet. Everything went very through the entire flight on his first time flying the plane as he was being incredibly careful until one big mistake happened. His brain was on autopilot mode and he grabbed two thrust reverser levers like his brain and hands were used too without looking. In his mind he was feeling comfortable once the airplane hit the ground and went back on his old habits. Before the captain could stop him he deployed only two of three thrust reversers. I think I remember the report saying he had three seconds to notice and correct the mistake. They kept it on the runway, but had to do it with differential braking. That overheat event caused almost a $ 1 Million in damage to the gear since one of the brakes overheated and thermalled the tires. The point of the story is that mistakes do happen in a matter of seconds and it is an important lesson for every pilot.

I won’t call you naive but hard landings happen even with the “proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations”. If you don’t flare correctly you can have a hard landing. If you bounce on the mains and porpoise on the nose you can also crease the fuselage and send interior parts of the aircraft fleeing from their mounts i.e. ANA


You are correct that you certainly can have a hard landing if you don’t flare.

I have never flown a 767. Do you know if it has flare assist? I would be surprised that this much damage could happen even if they didn’t flare at all assuming weights, speeds, etc were correct, but I’d like to learn more
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2592
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:34 pm

The 767 has a particular weakness in this area, after several similar landing accidents in the early 1990s, Boeing strengthened the structure in this area on new build aircraft beyond a certain line number.

The accidents follow a very similar pattern; rapidly derotating the nose into the runway. It’s the sharp pitch down and subsequent impact of the nose gear onto the runway that causes the structural damage. If you read the reports, they often have relatively normal main gear touchdowns, the damage always comes from the nose coming down rapidly.

Asiana 1992
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920116-0

LOT 1993
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19931231-1

Alitalia 1997
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19970522-2

Vietnam Airlines 2000
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000919-0

Lloyd Aero Boliviano 2004
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20040807-1

Skyservice 2005
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20050522-0

Royal Air Maroc 2009
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20090420-0

Thomson Airways 2010
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20101003-0

ANA 2012
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20120620-0

Some of the reports have photos of the damage, usually wrinkling to the upper skin just forward of door 2 (on aircraft that have them) and damage around the nose gear.

Best Regards
CROSSWIND
 
Whiplash6
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:48 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Call me naive, but if the plane is on a stable approach at the proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations, the plane won’t land on the nose gear and do damage like this. Any one of those could be off and result in this. Some of those are within the pilots control and others aren’t. It could be bad weather reports. It could be inaccurate weight calculations.

I trust Atlas has a capable flight operations team and chief pilot to discover what happened. DFDR data will help. A new pilot incorrectly inputting data in an FMC that he is unfamiliar with could cause this. An unstable approach since he is not familiar with the plane could be a factor.

I remember a story of a new first officer transitioning from a twin jet to a tri jet. Everything went very through the entire flight on his first time flying the plane as he was being incredibly careful until one big mistake happened. His brain was on autopilot mode and he grabbed two thrust reverser levers like his brain and hands were used too without looking. In his mind he was feeling comfortable once the airplane hit the ground and went back on his old habits. Before the captain could stop him he deployed only two of three thrust reversers. I think I remember the report saying he had three seconds to notice and correct the mistake. They kept it on the runway, but had to do it with differential braking. That overheat event caused almost a $ 1 Million in damage to the gear since one of the brakes overheated and thermalled the tires. The point of the story is that mistakes do happen in a matter of seconds and it is an important lesson for every pilot.

I won’t call you naive but hard landings happen even with the “proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations”. If you don’t flare correctly you can have a hard landing. If you bounce on the mains and porpoise on the nose you can also crease the fuselage and send interior parts of the aircraft fleeing from their mounts i.e. ANA


You are correct that you certainly can have a hard landing if you don’t flare.

I have never flown a 767. Do you know if it has flare assist? I would be surprised that this much damage could happen even if they didn’t flare at all assuming weights, speeds, etc were correct, but I’d like to learn more



The 747-8 is the only aircraft in the fleet that has flare assist. Even if the 767 had that capability the flare assist has one major flaw: you have to flare. Flare assist is only there to help, not to land for you. A common error when transitioning to a larger aircraft is to freeze up and forget to flare. I’m not saying that’s what happened in this case, that’s for the investigators to determine, I’m only saying that it’s a common error.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8507
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:50 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Call me naive, but if the plane is on a stable approach at the proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations, the plane won’t land on the nose gear and do damage like this. Any one of those could be off and result in this. Some of those are within the pilots control and others aren’t. It could be bad weather reports. It could be inaccurate weight calculations.

I trust Atlas has a capable flight operations team and chief pilot to discover what happened. DFDR data will help. A new pilot incorrectly inputting data in an FMC that he is unfamiliar with could cause this. An unstable approach since he is not familiar with the plane could be a factor.

I remember a story of a new first officer transitioning from a twin jet to a tri jet. Everything went very through the entire flight on his first time flying the plane as he was being incredibly careful until one big mistake happened. His brain was on autopilot mode and he grabbed two thrust reverser levers like his brain and hands were used too without looking. In his mind he was feeling comfortable once the airplane hit the ground and went back on his old habits. Before the captain could stop him he deployed only two of three thrust reversers. I think I remember the report saying he had three seconds to notice and correct the mistake. They kept it on the runway, but had to do it with differential braking. That overheat event caused almost a $ 1 Million in damage to the gear since one of the brakes overheated and thermalled the tires. The point of the story is that mistakes do happen in a matter of seconds and it is an important lesson for every pilot.

I won’t call you naive but hard landings happen even with the “proper speed, flap, trim, thrust, etc set correctly with accurate wind information and weight calculations”. If you don’t flare correctly you can have a hard landing. If you bounce on the mains and porpoise on the nose you can also crease the fuselage and send interior parts of the aircraft fleeing from their mounts i.e. ANA


You are correct that you certainly can have a hard landing if you don’t flare.

I have never flown a 767. Do you know if it has flare assist? I would be surprised that this much damage could happen even if they didn’t flare at all assuming weights, speeds, etc were correct, but I’d like to learn more




The only ‘flare assist’ on the 767 sits in the
left hand seat
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2520
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:11 am

777PHX wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform? no wind. 25 mile visibility. Bent plane.


You realize that *no one* flies around empty airliners for operating experience, yeah?


I believe, EASA requires a few takeoffs and landings in the actual airplane before a type is awarded with no passengers. The FAA doesn't but its something I won't be surprised if studied in the future.

Here's Swiss training new pilots on their A330
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smmhJ-j8nEI
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:15 am

Summary:
Skyservice Airlines B767-31K/ER C-GLMC Punta Cana, Dominican Republic 22 May 2005- Currently active with Amazon Prime Air as N1373A
Lloyd Aéreo Boliviano- LAB B767-3P6ER CP-2425 Santa Cruz, Bolivia 7 August 2004- Currently stored as Sky Holding Company N636SH
Asiana Airlines B767-38E HL7264 Jeju Cheju, South Korea 16 January 1992- Scrapped as N798AW after short stint with VivaMacau.
Royal Air Maroc - RAM B767-36NER CN-RNT New York-JFK, United States of America 20 April 2009- Currently still active with RAM.
All Nippon Airways - ANA B767-381ER JA610A Tokyo-Narita Airport, Japan 20 June 2012- Currently still active with ANA.
Alitalia B767-33AER I-DEIL Newark International Airport EWR, United States of America 22 May 1997- Currently active with Omni Air International as N378AX
LOT Polskie Linie Lotnicze B767-35DER SP-LPA Warszawa-Okecie Airport, Poland 31 December 1993- Currently active with Aeronexus Corporation as ZS-NEX

Happened to same aircraft, currently undergoing cargo conversion for DHL as N739DH
Thomson Airways B767-324ER (WL) G-OOBK Bristol Airport, United Kingdom 03 October 2010
Vietnam Airlines B767-324ER S7-RGV Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam 19 September 2000
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:49 am

Max Q wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
Curious as to what Airbus did to perfect the design? Is it stronger in some way or just better designed?


Timing actually. OEM's simply hadn't figured out how to make a robust airframe before Q4 1988 due to the lack of computer power and knowhow.

For instance, if you compare a 737ng or A320 with a 757 or DC-8, it's like night and day technology wise. 1988 is the key year!




That’s just completely false



While modern aircraft are more advanced technologically and the process to build
then is highly computerized that doesn’t
mean older aircraft are not as structurally
sound


In fact the opposite is true, older aircraft were built far stronger than they needed to be BECAUSE computerized load analysis wasnt available



They were extremely rugged which is why so many earlier generation aircraft had exceptionally long lives during which some of them stayed intact despite incidents where they were significantly overstressed



I guarantee you there won’t be 35 + year old A320’s flying freight


DLH has many coming up on 30 soon, and UA will likely retire some around 35. Also, a lot of people (Europeans) seem to conveniently forget the A320 was designed by feeding punch cards into mainframes, but I guess it was faster at the time than the slide rule.

The A320 is a highly-automated dinosaur really.
Last edited by 1989worstyear on Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9043
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:55 am

NYC news is all over a zero-importance blown tire on takeoff of an Atlas 747 cargo flight from JFK to ORD today, resulting in a circle-to-land and the brief-ish tie-up of one JFK runway.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/07/29 ... y-landing/

Of course, they are also covering very important stuff like the following:

https://wcbs880.radio.com/articles/new- ... on-resigns
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:02 am

lt1yj wrote:
Max Q wrote:
In fact the opposite is true, older aircraft were built far stronger than they needed to be BECAUSE computerized load analysis wasnt available


An old school ops rep once told me that if a DC8 had his the World Trade Center it would have flown right through it. (Bad humor, but those are built like a tank).



But the isn't the 767 part of the same generation of aircraft as the DC-8? It certainly doesn't fit the definition of modern since it came out WAAYYY before 1988.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
d8s
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:27 am

goboeing wrote:
d8s wrote:
You act like this is his first time landing a 767, let alone any plane, period...he is a Captain, not a 50 hour student pilot.


You've completely missed the point here.

This landing reportedly WAS likely to be the pilot's first landing in a 767. It was OE and there's a very good chance they came off the right seat of the 747-400.

See above where I posted the various threats as well as another poster's comment about lengthy wait times for OE after the simulator.

It's a recipe for a hard landing.


I didn't miss any point...all I read on this post is a bunch of people spilling sewage. Just because he might have had a lengthy wait time after the simulator doesn't mean he forgot how to land the airplane. A 5,000 hour commercial pilot, who hasn't flown in 30-60 days does not mean a receipt for a hard landing. Were you on the airplane when it happened? I thought not...therefore you don't fully know what happened.
 
doug_or
Posts: 3244
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:31 am

1989worstyear wrote:
But the isn't the 767 part of the same generation of aircraft as the DC-8? It certainly doesn't fit the definition of modern since it came out WAAYYY before 1988.


Not even close.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:15 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
During certification testing, Douglas broke the rear end off of a super 80. The plane was intended for SAS, but they wanted one that hadn’t been bent. Douglas kept it as an R&D frame after it was repaired.


Douglas also broke a DC-8 on a hard landing during a test flight.

The famous fuzzy video used in many documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIsbSz03WdU
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:37 am

1989worstyear wrote:
lt1yj wrote:
Max Q wrote:
In fact the opposite is true, older aircraft were built far stronger than they needed to be BECAUSE computerized load analysis wasnt available


An old school ops rep once told me that if a DC8 had his the World Trade Center it would have flown right through it. (Bad humor, but those are built like a tank).



But the isn't the 767 part of the same generation of aircraft as the DC-8? It certainly doesn't fit the definition of modern since it came out WAAYYY before 1988.


Maybe you should do some research on aircraft type history before making such claims.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15271
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:29 am

There will be an investigation looking at a range of factors that could have caused this incident, including pilot actions, possible mechanical issues and others including weather/air conditions. This aircraft will be physically thoroughly examined, including by the insurer, to determine if is financially feasible to repair or scrap it. Given its age, hours, cycle numbers, potential costs to fix, value as parts and metal, it likely to be scrapped. It may not even be safe to fly to a 'boneyard' for parting out. I suspect the PIC will be given retraining.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:49 am

More likely the LCA, in this case the PIC will be given a sim check and return to duties, minus his LCA authority, based on previous experience with that kind of incident. Hope the F/O gets another shot at that 1st landing:)
 
kraz911
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 5:21 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:59 am

Hello all,
I don’t think this one will buff out. Sorry, had to do that. I learned my lesson jumping at the “ it’s a write off” comment with the BA 777. That one fooled a lot of people. It’s no secret this frame has been around the block quite a few times in its 26.5 years. I don’t know the cycle count but it’s up to the lease holder and the underwriters whether it’s thumb up or down. I’m glad no one was hurt physically...
 
kraz911
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 5:21 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:32 pm

Hello all,
I recall watching a video, I think on YouTube, of pilots new to the 747 flying take off and landing circuits with the training captain in the f/o seat. Two of the pilots did reasonably well with subtle suggestions from the captain. One of the pilots didn’t seem to have the touch or feel and captain tried his suggestions and corrections and he admitted later it was the closest he ever came to yelling in a cockpit. I’ve heard numerous times you can’t make a bad landing in a 747, but that one was a doosey. Recalling watching the ANA 767 landing, that was ugly and I cringe every time I see it. If memory serves me, that landing was in high winds.
 
BAeRJ100
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:49 am

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:41 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
But the isn't the 767 part of the same generation of aircraft as the DC-8? It certainly doesn't fit the definition of modern since it came out WAAYYY before 1988.


1 - there's almost a quarter of a century separating the first flight of the DC-8 and 767.
2 - your comment is written is if aircraft are stuck in the era from which they originated. Sure, you could compare a brand-new 767 in 1982 to the DC-10, A300, L-1011, etc, but the program has received so many refinements and improvements over the years that it isn't a fair comparison to put a 767 today up against designs that have been OOP for many decades.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:17 pm

wjcandee wrote:
AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform? no wind. 25 mile visibility. Bent plane.


Could not agree more. I was not impressed with the fact it was filled with PAX.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos